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> I think it's very fair to have differing attitudes/moral thresholds for an impoverished mother shoplifting a week's worth of baby formula versus "a couple in

> I think it's very fair to have differing attitudes/moral thresholds for an impoverished mother shoplifting a week's worth of baby formula versus "a couple in Alabama [which] pled guilty to shifting $300,000-worth of stolen baby formula on eBay". I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Knowing some people who work in retail, the impact of rampant theft (organized or random) is really quite unsettling on the people who have to be around it. Retail store policies are very much about not interfering with the thieves, but it’s quite upsetting when you realize you’re in an environment where the law doesn’t really mean anything and consequences basically don’t exist for breaking the law. The few people I know in retail (including retail management) are looking to get out ASAP because it just feels so vaguely unsafe and, worse yet, large swaths of the public seem to thing the thieves are the good guys and the retail employees are the bad ones because they’re associated with a corporation.

marricks 4y ago
- capitalsigma 4y ago
  < 7% of Americans work in retail: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-the-retail-workforce.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-th...
ryandrake 4y ago
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Let me try to convince you without defending the morality of the shoplifter or declaring corporations evil. 1. On the totem pole of crimes, petty shoplifting (without violence) is pretty close to the bottom when it comes to harm done the public. Jaywalking and smoking weed are lower. 2. These corporations that are being robbed already build shrinkage into their budgets. $300k of baby food is nothing to Walmart, a rounding error, and I doubt you can even see it in their bottom line. Even a smaller shop is not going to go out of business if someone walks out with all their toothpaste. It’s not analogous to stealing from an individual. 3. There are a limited number of police and I’d rather them be out there deterring violent and serious crime than protecting the inventory of companies. When every rapist, murderer, white collar fraudster, and drunk driver is behind bars, and the police have nothing left to do, then sure, go bust those dastardly deodorant thieves.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > already build shrinkage into their budgets This is a shortsighted take. This is as stupid as the corporations buying "cyber insurance" not realizing the cases are going up and that prevention and processes are needed. Then comes next year their premiums shoot up. Who would have thought it?! Yes they "build shrinkage" for a forecasted number. If that number goes up and you get people swiping large amounts of products that number becomes meaningless. Then people wonder why did the store close or why a deodorant there costs $10 and is locked behind the counter
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- WalterBright 4y ago
  From the article: "Rite Aid, a pharmacy, closed a branch in Hell’s Kitchen in February after losing $200,000 worth of stuff last winter. And last week Target, a big retailer, reported that a rise in “shrink” (to use the industry jargon) had reduced its gross profit margin by $400m so far this year. The National Retail Federation says inventory loss, largely driven by theft, cost retailers a record $95bn last year." It seems that $300k is several orders of magnitude off. The harm to the public is when the stores find it unprofitable to exist in certain neighborhoods, which makes the neighborhoods even worse off. If the stores don't close, then prices have to rise to pay for the shrinkage, which the public has to pay for.
  - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
    Is it unprofitable or just not profitable enough for the capitalists who could get more return elsewhere? The cause in the increase is possibly an increase in poverty, or increase in wealth disparity?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Would you invest in something that returns 1% when there are 2% returns elsewhere? That is called the "opportunity cost", and a business is misallocating capital if the expected return is less than the opportunity cost. > The cause in the increase is possibly an increase in poverty, or increase in wealth disparity? I don't understand your question. Businesses have to have a return on their investment, or they go out of business. Shrinkage is a cost, so the price on the goods has to be raised to compensate. Profit = Revenue - Cost
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
paul7986 4y ago
Allowing those to shoplift / turn a blind eye to it is a breakdown of society! What are the good reasons that led to and allows this?
- sbarre 4y ago
  Letting people starve or be homeless is also a breakdown of society. One is harm to capitalism, property and profit, one is harm to neighbours and fellow humans,. Which one is worse, knowing you can't solve it all?
  - joenot443 4y ago
    Whenever I witness people clearing shelves in NYC, it's never been by someone who appeared homeless. Usually they're wearing clothes as nice as I am, sometimes they've got Airpods in. Let's not make up excuses for criminals, yeah?
    - sbarre 4y ago
      I was speaking broadly, you're citing an anecdote. Not the same thing.
mschuster91 4y ago
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Well... it's not that weird. The big chain stores like Walmart ruthlessly exploit their workers to the point of them being forced to apply for food stamps [1], while the owner class makes literally a dozen billions of dollars a year in net profits [2]. Additionally, Walmart is infamous for killing off small businesses around them [3]. So, I don't have much sympathy at all for these corporations and Walmart in particular. With ever more and more people being unable to make a honest living - over half the US has less than 1000$ in savings [4] - it's no surprise that shoplifting for survival is on the rise and at least somewhat accepted in society. Unfortunately, small stores get caught up in the crossfire as they can't afford to bear the rising cost of shoplifting. We need better wages for the 99% and higher taxes for the 1% so that we can get away from forcing people to steal to survive. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-top-employers-of-medicaid-and-food-stamp-beneficiaries.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-income https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-in... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating-death-how-walmart-displaces-nearby-small-businesses https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating... [4] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...
- prottog 4y ago
  > forcing people to steal to survive I really don't think these people are choosing between stealing and starving.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    According to the [USDA](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-u-s/key-statistics-graphics/#insecure https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo...), nearly 10% of americans have missed meals in the past year because they did not have enough food.
_xnmw 4y ago
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately. Happened before in history. See the Russian Revolution and the creation of the Soviet Union. Widespread moral justification for theft of private property on class-based "social justice" arguments. It's even happening right here in this HN thread, people justifying stealing.
- KingMob 4y ago
  Spoiler alert: wage theft is just as big as regular theft, if not more. https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-different-deterrents/ https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-dif... Think of shoplifting as "inefficient redistribution".
  - joenot443 4y ago
    This is one of those talking points I see progressives use that has just never made sense to me. So we can agree people's time is stolen from them, this is wrong. The part that has never made sense to me is why this means stealing as a whole something that society should encourage? If someone is abused by their parents we would agree they suffered injustice, like people who had their wages skimmed by their employer. We would never tell someone that was abused by their parents it's now okay to abuse their own children, so why would we tell someone who's been stolen from that it's now okay for them to loot bodegas? I sometimes can't tell if I'm being gaslighted, or if people really do look at the world in such broad strokes. When I see my local owner, Sol, have his shop trashed and stuck up by a couple 19yos, I certainly wasn't thinking about how they're probably hardworking minimum wage workers and this is just an 'inefficient redistribution' of wealth which is rightfully theirs. Some people are just dishonorable thieves, there doesn't have to be more to it than that.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      If people are just born criminals, then why is this a problem that is arising now? Is it actually a new problem or just media sensationalism? If it's real, then when did it start and can we surmise the reasons for the trend?
quacked 4y ago
Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. The most remote, homestead-y places will have unattended "stores" where you leave out goods and people come by and leave money in the basket and take what you have. The least remote, most-managed places have security locks on items over $15. It is impossible to run a friendly, neighborhood-run store when any new customer is a potential thief. When theft goes uncontrolled, owners begin to look at their customers with suspicion. Those who don't like theft leave for more peaceful places and are replaced by owners who will tolerate theft with a big insurance policy and force. It is continually astonishing to me that so many "community-focused" people don't realize that unilateral actions of harm inside the community (theft, assault, etc.) have ripple effects that harm the entire community. If you grow up in a region where store owners believe you might be a thief unless they personally know you and you have to constantly worry about protecting what's yours, and I grow up in an area where I'm trusted and respected by business owners and I leave my door unlocked when I go to town, how is equity meaningfully achievable between us?
- chestervonwinch 4y ago
  > Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. What do you think about how this relates to communities shifting almost entirely to the internet?
  - specialist 4y ago
    My wild-assed guess is that social media accelerated the underlying long-term trends. Bowling Alone is a popular book about the decline of "social capital" (community), which is a fair intro to the topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone IMHO, technological advances begets social upheaval and accelerating inequity are the root causes for the popular usual suspects (broadcast media, cars and suburbia, social media). Orthogonally, since Trumpism, I've been more open minded towards explanations rooted in reactionary populism (revanchism) and white racial animus.

marricks 4y ago

capitalsigma 4y ago
< 7% of Americans work in retail: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-the-retail-workforce.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-th...

ryandrake 4y ago

> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Let me try to convince you without defending the morality of the shoplifter or declaring corporations evil. 1. On the totem pole of crimes, petty shoplifting (without violence) is pretty close to the bottom when it comes to harm done the public. Jaywalking and smoking weed are lower. 2. These corporations that are being robbed already build shrinkage into their budgets. $300k of baby food is nothing to Walmart, a rounding error, and I doubt you can even see it in their bottom line. Even a smaller shop is not going to go out of business if someone walks out with all their toothpaste. It’s not analogous to stealing from an individual. 3. There are a limited number of police and I’d rather them be out there deterring violent and serious crime than protecting the inventory of companies. When every rapist, murderer, white collar fraudster, and drunk driver is behind bars, and the police have nothing left to do, then sure, go bust those dastardly deodorant thieves.

raverbashing 4y ago
> already build shrinkage into their budgets This is a shortsighted take. This is as stupid as the corporations buying "cyber insurance" not realizing the cases are going up and that prevention and processes are needed. Then comes next year their premiums shoot up. Who would have thought it?! Yes they "build shrinkage" for a forecasted number. If that number goes up and you get people swiping large amounts of products that number becomes meaningless. Then people wonder why did the store close or why a deodorant there costs $10 and is locked behind the counter
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
WalterBright 4y ago
From the article: "Rite Aid, a pharmacy, closed a branch in Hell’s Kitchen in February after losing $200,000 worth of stuff last winter. And last week Target, a big retailer, reported that a rise in “shrink” (to use the industry jargon) had reduced its gross profit margin by $400m so far this year. The National Retail Federation says inventory loss, largely driven by theft, cost retailers a record $95bn last year." It seems that $300k is several orders of magnitude off. The harm to the public is when the stores find it unprofitable to exist in certain neighborhoods, which makes the neighborhoods even worse off. If the stores don't close, then prices have to rise to pay for the shrinkage, which the public has to pay for.
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  Is it unprofitable or just not profitable enough for the capitalists who could get more return elsewhere? The cause in the increase is possibly an increase in poverty, or increase in wealth disparity?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Would you invest in something that returns 1% when there are 2% returns elsewhere? That is called the "opportunity cost", and a business is misallocating capital if the expected return is less than the opportunity cost. > The cause in the increase is possibly an increase in poverty, or increase in wealth disparity? I don't understand your question. Businesses have to have a return on their investment, or they go out of business. Shrinkage is a cost, so the price on the goods has to be raised to compensate. Profit = Revenue - Cost

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

paul7986 4y ago

Allowing those to shoplift / turn a blind eye to it is a breakdown of society! What are the good reasons that led to and allows this?

sbarre 4y ago
Letting people starve or be homeless is also a breakdown of society. One is harm to capitalism, property and profit, one is harm to neighbours and fellow humans,. Which one is worse, knowing you can't solve it all?
- joenot443 4y ago
  Whenever I witness people clearing shelves in NYC, it's never been by someone who appeared homeless. Usually they're wearing clothes as nice as I am, sometimes they've got Airpods in. Let's not make up excuses for criminals, yeah?
  - sbarre 4y ago
    I was speaking broadly, you're citing an anecdote. Not the same thing.

mschuster91 4y ago

> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Well... it's not that weird. The big chain stores like Walmart ruthlessly exploit their workers to the point of them being forced to apply for food stamps [1], while the owner class makes literally a dozen billions of dollars a year in net profits [2]. Additionally, Walmart is infamous for killing off small businesses around them [3]. So, I don't have much sympathy at all for these corporations and Walmart in particular. With ever more and more people being unable to make a honest living - over half the US has less than 1000$ in savings [4] - it's no surprise that shoplifting for survival is on the rise and at least somewhat accepted in society. Unfortunately, small stores get caught up in the crossfire as they can't afford to bear the rising cost of shoplifting. We need better wages for the 99% and higher taxes for the 1% so that we can get away from forcing people to steal to survive. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-top-employers-of-medicaid-and-food-stamp-beneficiaries.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-income https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-in... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating-death-how-walmart-displaces-nearby-small-businesses https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating... [4] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...

prottog 4y ago
> forcing people to steal to survive I really don't think these people are choosing between stealing and starving.
- danielheath 4y ago
  According to the [USDA](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-u-s/key-statistics-graphics/#insecure https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo...), nearly 10% of americans have missed meals in the past year because they did not have enough food.

_xnmw 4y ago

> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately. Happened before in history. See the Russian Revolution and the creation of the Soviet Union. Widespread moral justification for theft of private property on class-based "social justice" arguments. It's even happening right here in this HN thread, people justifying stealing.

KingMob 4y ago
Spoiler alert: wage theft is just as big as regular theft, if not more. https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-different-deterrents/ https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-dif... Think of shoplifting as "inefficient redistribution".
- joenot443 4y ago
  This is one of those talking points I see progressives use that has just never made sense to me. So we can agree people's time is stolen from them, this is wrong. The part that has never made sense to me is why this means stealing as a whole something that society should encourage? If someone is abused by their parents we would agree they suffered injustice, like people who had their wages skimmed by their employer. We would never tell someone that was abused by their parents it's now okay to abuse their own children, so why would we tell someone who's been stolen from that it's now okay for them to loot bodegas? I sometimes can't tell if I'm being gaslighted, or if people really do look at the world in such broad strokes. When I see my local owner, Sol, have his shop trashed and stuck up by a couple 19yos, I certainly wasn't thinking about how they're probably hardworking minimum wage workers and this is just an 'inefficient redistribution' of wealth which is rightfully theirs. Some people are just dishonorable thieves, there doesn't have to be more to it than that.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    If people are just born criminals, then why is this a problem that is arising now? Is it actually a new problem or just media sensationalism? If it's real, then when did it start and can we surmise the reasons for the trend?

quacked 4y ago

Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. The most remote, homestead-y places will have unattended "stores" where you leave out goods and people come by and leave money in the basket and take what you have. The least remote, most-managed places have security locks on items over $15. It is impossible to run a friendly, neighborhood-run store when any new customer is a potential thief. When theft goes uncontrolled, owners begin to look at their customers with suspicion. Those who don't like theft leave for more peaceful places and are replaced by owners who will tolerate theft with a big insurance policy and force. It is continually astonishing to me that so many "community-focused" people don't realize that unilateral actions of harm inside the community (theft, assault, etc.) have ripple effects that harm the entire community. If you grow up in a region where store owners believe you might be a thief unless they personally know you and you have to constantly worry about protecting what's yours, and I grow up in an area where I'm trusted and respected by business owners and I leave my door unlocked when I go to town, how is equity meaningfully achievable between us?

chestervonwinch 4y ago
> Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. What do you think about how this relates to communities shifting almost entirely to the internet?
- specialist 4y ago
  My wild-assed guess is that social media accelerated the underlying long-term trends. Bowling Alone is a popular book about the decline of "social capital" (community), which is a fair intro to the topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone IMHO, technological advances begets social upheaval and accelerating inequity are the root causes for the popular usual suspects (broadcast media, cars and suburbia, social media). Orthogonally, since Trumpism, I've been more open minded towards explanations rooted in reactionary populism (revanchism) and white racial animus.