10 ms·

I absolutely cannot understand why any engineer would chose to stay at Twitter with the way things are.

tleilaxu 4y ago
Visas, in the short term at least.
negamax 4y ago
I don't think anyone is staying there by choice now. Most stayed because of visa issues. Some might have stayed because of Musk's wow factor.
- tleilaxu 4y ago
  “Wow factor” as in “wow, what are you doing” presumably.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  > Most stayed because of visa issues I keep seeing people repeat this. Where is this factoid coming from? I'm left to assume it's subtle racism stemming from a photo Elon took with some Asian (many likely Asian-American?!?) guys at the office.
  - negamax 4y ago
    I am an immigrant myself. So I understand the pain of uprooting yourself and moving to another country. I put myself in the shoes of Twitter staff. That ultimatum by Musk of Twitter 2.0 would simply had me quit. As did many engineers. But if my visa status was tied to the job, I would had stayed. Simply to get some more time in landing another job if nothing else.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      I agree that there could be people caught in this situation. I feel for them and I want this system to be improved. However, people are claiming that no engineer in their right mind would stay there if not in that situation. It turns out Twitter has had less than 700 H1-B approvals since 2009: https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Noahpinion/status/1594641746410905600#m https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Noahpinion/status/159464174641... Basic arithmetic to determine there are at least hundreds of American engineers working at Twitter right now. People. I get it. You don't like Elon. You find this type of work environment toxic. Not everyone is like you though! In fact, at least a few of us are applying to work there as we speak.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - dccoolgai 4y ago
        Just as a thought exercise: What are you going to say 3 years from now when a hiring manager asks why you willingly chose to start working for someone who had just wantonly admitted that he intended to be abusive to his staff and force them to work nights and weekends for a venture that he was actively undermining? Is this representative of the judgment you use on a regular basis, and if it is why should that manager trust you near their area of responsibility?
        chitowneats 4y ago
        Definitely just a thought exercise. In no universe would a hiring manager ever ask this. "Why did you sacrifice other things in your life to work at a large tech company, operating at scale, for a high salary?" Edit: Absolutely laughable that you think this will be detrimental to people's careers. Your other comments on this topic are frankly unhinged. If you are indeed a hiring manager planning on factoring this in to your criteria, please know this will be a massive red flag to productive engineers.
        dccoolgai 4y ago
        It's detrimental to all of our careers that this is the example being set for "how engineers should be treated". I'm not your enemy here: if you get hurt and taken for a ride, that effects me because we're in the same market. Knocking the bottom out of the market is bad for all of us. I wish you wouldn't throw yourself into the grinder and help it along, but I hope things work out for you either way.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        You're not my enemy, sure. But I'm not interested in working with coddled and entitled individuals who are half checked out, self-important, have a warped perspective on life and humanity, etc. I end up having to pick up the slack. No thanks. Musk absolutely smashed that culture at Twitter. It will be rough seas for a while but the company will emerge stronger. Maybe even profitable!
  - madeofpalk 4y ago
    I doubt the majority of them are visa holders, but twitter sponsors h1-b staff, and it's incredibly difficult (logistically and emotionally) to move jobs or do anything visa-wise.
- theptip 4y ago
  While this is certainly one factor, it can’t be the only factor. Twitter apparently had ~300 H-1B employees which is less than 20% of their remaining headcount. Unless there are vastly more of other visa types like L-1? Discussed further in https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-h-1b-visa-has-problems-but-its https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-h-1b-visa-has-problems...
sedatk 4y ago
Visas like H-1B can be limiting career mobility until the employee gets a green card. Under H-1B quitting a job means committing to move back to your country in a month or so. It's traumatic.
- MBCook 4y ago
  If I were H-1B I would stay, but only until I got a new job to sponsor me. And I would be looking as hard as I could.
- dccoolgai 4y ago
  Yeah, this is literally the only thing stopping me from taking a "hard judgement" position like "if you worked at Twitter after 2023 I have serious questions about your judgement and I probably won't hire you." The way H1-B employees are treated is ignominious. It breaks my heart to think of the situation these poor people are in - and make no mistake: In their hearts they want to treat _you_ that way, too. Speak out about it while you can, because you're next.
pstuart 4y ago
Likely a majority are on H1B visas -- they're trapped.
- _2d30 4y ago
  Likely you made this up and have no idea actually.
  - pstuart 4y ago
    It was pure conjecture, idle speculation, a haphazard guess. While most of us in this forum probably appreciate drive, technical mastery, and the creation of great things, etc., the reports on Musk's management style don't make for a compelling recruitment pitch.
- pythonguython 4y ago
  Looks like around 300 people who worked at Twitter were on H1B visas [1]. Let’s assume they were let go at the same rate as all employees and say there are 150 left. That’s a minority of the work force. People are choosing to stay for reasons beyond being trapped by visa requirements. [1] https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/18/politics/twitter-layoffs-visas-h1b/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/18/politics/twitter-layoffs-...
HWR_14 4y ago
According to the article, Musk started giving six-figure retention bonuses. That's a lot of motivation if you think things will calm down soon.
- jasonpeacock 4y ago
  And if don't think he'll fire you on whim tomorrow.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    Actually, I'm far more likely to accept if I think I'll be fired tomorrow on a whim. Like, I can accept 3 months severance today -or- take a six-figure bonus today and then get 3 months severance tomorrow? That's the easiest money I will ever make.
    - jasonpeacock 4y ago
      You're assuming that your'e still getting/keeping that bonus after being fired. There's no way they are just giving you 6 figures in cash and hoping that you'll stick around - it's golden handcuffs. And as others mentioned, the recent batch of firing "for cause" did not come with the same generous severance.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      If I read correctly, it’s down to 4 weeks severance with this latest batch of firings.
      - HWR_14 4y ago
        The severance is presumably a constant. The question is if you can get an additional six figure bonus for a day and then get fired.
        falcolas 4y ago
        Hiring bonuses usually have a clause about having to work for a specific amount of time, or you owe it back to the company. So, to your question, probably not.
Waterluvian 4y ago
This is a completely valid perplexion. It's so bewildering, right? Something I've learned (and keep learning in other contexts) is that change can be overwhelming for some for many reasons, probably more than I'm aware of. I've literally gone to a previous coworker and said, "there's a job with your name on it. Your pay will literally double. Your hours will halve. And you won't ever have to fear a C-level throwing a tantrum." They hummed and hawed and explained away why they didn't want to try. I think some of it is: - inertia - anxiety of "what if?" - known over unknown - ???
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ramesh31 4y ago
>I absolutely cannot understand why any engineer would chose to stay at Twitter with the way things are. I get it. For the same reason that Geohot gets it. There's a certain type of personality that doesn't care about life. They don't care about family. They don't care about wealth and material possessions. They don't care about "work life balance". They care about clout. They care about being "the best of the best". They want to be part of an elite team working on the hardest problems in the world, and nothing else matters. And Elon (through SpaceX, Tesla, and now Twitter) feeds that need greater than anything else available.
- vsareto 4y ago
  Musk is basically trying to be an Old Republic Sith Lord and filtering for apprentices. All he has to do is throw down a gauntlet and it'll attract people who like running gauntlets. This particular gauntlet is software engineering. Make a thing seem really hard and prestigious (even if it's artificially hard) and you'll attract the hyper-competitive people.
- subroutine 4y ago
  Also all the people who stood between you and your boss's job are now gone. If I survived the initial round of firings and then the code review, I'd probably stick around to see what happens - maybe just to watch the place burn. I wouldn't substantially change my work behavior, and get my resume up to date. But it might be interesting to stay for a while.
- api 4y ago
  That works for Tesla and definitely for SpaceX. I don’t think that works for Twitter. It’s Twitter.
  - kodyo 4y ago
    Nobody has ever had any idea how to make Twitter "work."
TruthIsHeresy 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  We've banned this account. You shouldn't post like this, but not because it's against the rules (I mean, that too, but I get that you don't care right now); rather because when you post like this you discredit your own position and thereby weaken yourself. That is not in your interest. Also, when you post abusively to HN it eventually gets your main account banned as well. But really you should just realize that it's not in your interest.
ergocoder 4y ago
Not everyone is born rich and/or can stay without visa. It's hard to find other jobs right now with all the companies laying off people.
amerkhalid 4y ago
I’m not the greatest fan of Musk but if I was at Twitter, I would have stayed just to see how Musk works up close, to see the changes, and maybe to feel like being part of something big. Now, in retrospect, I would not have stayed but 9 months ago it was hard to know how chaotic Musk will be.
duke98 4y ago
Some of us like to work, eat, and make money. Before Musk, there is no way I would have offered any alternative view. Now, I can speak freely. Anyone complaining is more vested in politics than software.
- pstuart 4y ago
  What were you not able to say before?
  - deviantbit 4y ago
    .
    - pstuart 4y ago
      That does sound messed up -- it's one thing to be ignored on an issue like that but to be fired yourself is kind of crazy. I guess it's good to have friends in high places....
  - duke98 4y ago
    In the morning, Slack was filled with people showing off their morning run, coffee on a table, you name it. Nothing about what needed to be accomplished. I mentioned it in a stand-up, and was told to spend time reflecting on my position in the company. Certain people were allowed to code outside of the 'standard', and if you spoke about it, it turned into an intervention.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  Speak freely about what? You think these random printout code reviews would spare you just because of your political views? That would imply Elon's Twitter is still more vested in politics than software.
pythonguython 4y ago
Because many engineers are being paid upwards of $200k to work at one of the largest social media companies. On top of that, the economy in general is uncertain right now, with many other similar tech companies not hiring as aggressively as before. Layoffs were heavy handed, but this was a company that has been historically not profitable. Those that remain are being asked to show up in person and provide proof that their work adds value to the company. I understand why some would leave, but I can’t fathom how you absolutely cannot understand the reasons many are choosing to stay.
tomp 4y ago
Because you get to work directly with one of the most productive and (technically) creative people in history? Alive right now, dining with you and reviewing your code? Plus you get to work on one of the most important platforms for world politics. If I was in SF, I’d definitely apply.
michaelt 4y ago
Collapsing companies can be an excellent way to jump several rungs on the career ladder at a time. If you're an ambitious Level 2 Hierarch and you know your Level 3 and 4 Hierarchs along with many of your fellow Level 2s have just departed, you can roll the dice and maybe become a Level 4 Hierarch before you depart in 6 months time. Experience allowing you to become a Level 4 Hierarch at a company that isn't collapsing. Of course, it isn't clear that Musk is looking to promote any Hierarchs, so this would be a gamble.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Visas, in the short term at least.

I don't think anyone is staying there by choice now. Most stayed because of visa issues. Some might have stayed because of Musk's wow factor.

tleilaxu 4y ago
“Wow factor” as in “wow, what are you doing” presumably.
chitowneats 4y ago
> Most stayed because of visa issues I keep seeing people repeat this. Where is this factoid coming from? I'm left to assume it's subtle racism stemming from a photo Elon took with some Asian (many likely Asian-American?!?) guys at the office.
- negamax 4y ago
  I am an immigrant myself. So I understand the pain of uprooting yourself and moving to another country. I put myself in the shoes of Twitter staff. That ultimatum by Musk of Twitter 2.0 would simply had me quit. As did many engineers. But if my visa status was tied to the job, I would had stayed. Simply to get some more time in landing another job if nothing else.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    I agree that there could be people caught in this situation. I feel for them and I want this system to be improved. However, people are claiming that no engineer in their right mind would stay there if not in that situation. It turns out Twitter has had less than 700 H1-B approvals since 2009: https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Noahpinion/status/1594641746410905600#m https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Noahpinion/status/159464174641... Basic arithmetic to determine there are at least hundreds of American engineers working at Twitter right now. People. I get it. You don't like Elon. You find this type of work environment toxic. Not everyone is like you though! In fact, at least a few of us are applying to work there as we speak.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - dccoolgai 4y ago
      Just as a thought exercise: What are you going to say 3 years from now when a hiring manager asks why you willingly chose to start working for someone who had just wantonly admitted that he intended to be abusive to his staff and force them to work nights and weekends for a venture that he was actively undermining? Is this representative of the judgment you use on a regular basis, and if it is why should that manager trust you near their area of responsibility?
      - chitowneats 4y ago
        Definitely just a thought exercise. In no universe would a hiring manager ever ask this. "Why did you sacrifice other things in your life to work at a large tech company, operating at scale, for a high salary?" Edit: Absolutely laughable that you think this will be detrimental to people's careers. Your other comments on this topic are frankly unhinged. If you are indeed a hiring manager planning on factoring this in to your criteria, please know this will be a massive red flag to productive engineers.
        dccoolgai 4y ago
        It's detrimental to all of our careers that this is the example being set for "how engineers should be treated". I'm not your enemy here: if you get hurt and taken for a ride, that effects me because we're in the same market. Knocking the bottom out of the market is bad for all of us. I wish you wouldn't throw yourself into the grinder and help it along, but I hope things work out for you either way.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        You're not my enemy, sure. But I'm not interested in working with coddled and entitled individuals who are half checked out, self-important, have a warped perspective on life and humanity, etc. I end up having to pick up the slack. No thanks. Musk absolutely smashed that culture at Twitter. It will be rough seas for a while but the company will emerge stronger. Maybe even profitable!
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  I doubt the majority of them are visa holders, but twitter sponsors h1-b staff, and it's incredibly difficult (logistically and emotionally) to move jobs or do anything visa-wise.
theptip 4y ago
While this is certainly one factor, it can’t be the only factor. Twitter apparently had ~300 H-1B employees which is less than 20% of their remaining headcount. Unless there are vastly more of other visa types like L-1? Discussed further in https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-h-1b-visa-has-problems-but-its https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-h-1b-visa-has-problems...

sedatk 4y ago

Visas like H-1B can be limiting career mobility until the employee gets a green card. Under H-1B quitting a job means committing to move back to your country in a month or so. It's traumatic.

MBCook 4y ago
If I were H-1B I would stay, but only until I got a new job to sponsor me. And I would be looking as hard as I could.
dccoolgai 4y ago
Yeah, this is literally the only thing stopping me from taking a "hard judgement" position like "if you worked at Twitter after 2023 I have serious questions about your judgement and I probably won't hire you." The way H1-B employees are treated is ignominious. It breaks my heart to think of the situation these poor people are in - and make no mistake: In their hearts they want to treat _you_ that way, too. Speak out about it while you can, because you're next.

pstuart 4y ago

Likely a majority are on H1B visas -- they're trapped.

_2d30 4y ago
Likely you made this up and have no idea actually.
- pstuart 4y ago
  It was pure conjecture, idle speculation, a haphazard guess. While most of us in this forum probably appreciate drive, technical mastery, and the creation of great things, etc., the reports on Musk's management style don't make for a compelling recruitment pitch.
pythonguython 4y ago
Looks like around 300 people who worked at Twitter were on H1B visas [1]. Let’s assume they were let go at the same rate as all employees and say there are 150 left. That’s a minority of the work force. People are choosing to stay for reasons beyond being trapped by visa requirements. [1] https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/18/politics/twitter-layoffs-visas-h1b/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/18/politics/twitter-layoffs-...

HWR_14 4y ago

According to the article, Musk started giving six-figure retention bonuses. That's a lot of motivation if you think things will calm down soon.

jasonpeacock 4y ago
And if don't think he'll fire you on whim tomorrow.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Actually, I'm far more likely to accept if I think I'll be fired tomorrow on a whim. Like, I can accept 3 months severance today -or- take a six-figure bonus today and then get 3 months severance tomorrow? That's the easiest money I will ever make.
  - jasonpeacock 4y ago
    You're assuming that your'e still getting/keeping that bonus after being fired. There's no way they are just giving you 6 figures in cash and hoping that you'll stick around - it's golden handcuffs. And as others mentioned, the recent batch of firing "for cause" did not come with the same generous severance.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    If I read correctly, it’s down to 4 weeks severance with this latest batch of firings.
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      The severance is presumably a constant. The question is if you can get an additional six figure bonus for a day and then get fired.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        Hiring bonuses usually have a clause about having to work for a specific amount of time, or you owe it back to the company. So, to your question, probably not.

Waterluvian 4y ago

This is a completely valid perplexion. It's so bewildering, right? Something I've learned (and keep learning in other contexts) is that change can be overwhelming for some for many reasons, probably more than I'm aware of. I've literally gone to a previous coworker and said, "there's a job with your name on it. Your pay will literally double. Your hours will halve. And you won't ever have to fear a C-level throwing a tantrum." They hummed and hawed and explained away why they didn't want to try. I think some of it is: - inertia - anxiety of "what if?" - known over unknown - ???

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ramesh31 4y ago

>I absolutely cannot understand why any engineer would chose to stay at Twitter with the way things are. I get it. For the same reason that Geohot gets it. There's a certain type of personality that doesn't care about life. They don't care about family. They don't care about wealth and material possessions. They don't care about "work life balance". They care about clout. They care about being "the best of the best". They want to be part of an elite team working on the hardest problems in the world, and nothing else matters. And Elon (through SpaceX, Tesla, and now Twitter) feeds that need greater than anything else available.

vsareto 4y ago
Musk is basically trying to be an Old Republic Sith Lord and filtering for apprentices. All he has to do is throw down a gauntlet and it'll attract people who like running gauntlets. This particular gauntlet is software engineering. Make a thing seem really hard and prestigious (even if it's artificially hard) and you'll attract the hyper-competitive people.
subroutine 4y ago
Also all the people who stood between you and your boss's job are now gone. If I survived the initial round of firings and then the code review, I'd probably stick around to see what happens - maybe just to watch the place burn. I wouldn't substantially change my work behavior, and get my resume up to date. But it might be interesting to stay for a while.
api 4y ago
That works for Tesla and definitely for SpaceX. I don’t think that works for Twitter. It’s Twitter.
- kodyo 4y ago
  Nobody has ever had any idea how to make Twitter "work."

TruthIsHeresy 4y ago

[flagged]

dang 4y ago
We've banned this account. You shouldn't post like this, but not because it's against the rules (I mean, that too, but I get that you don't care right now); rather because when you post like this you discredit your own position and thereby weaken yourself. That is not in your interest. Also, when you post abusively to HN it eventually gets your main account banned as well. But really you should just realize that it's not in your interest.

ergocoder 4y ago

Not everyone is born rich and/or can stay without visa. It's hard to find other jobs right now with all the companies laying off people.

amerkhalid 4y ago

I’m not the greatest fan of Musk but if I was at Twitter, I would have stayed just to see how Musk works up close, to see the changes, and maybe to feel like being part of something big. Now, in retrospect, I would not have stayed but 9 months ago it was hard to know how chaotic Musk will be.

duke98 4y ago

Some of us like to work, eat, and make money. Before Musk, there is no way I would have offered any alternative view. Now, I can speak freely. Anyone complaining is more vested in politics than software.

pstuart 4y ago
What were you not able to say before?
- deviantbit 4y ago
  .
  - pstuart 4y ago
    That does sound messed up -- it's one thing to be ignored on an issue like that but to be fired yourself is kind of crazy. I guess it's good to have friends in high places....
- duke98 4y ago
  In the morning, Slack was filled with people showing off their morning run, coffee on a table, you name it. Nothing about what needed to be accomplished. I mentioned it in a stand-up, and was told to spend time reflecting on my position in the company. Certain people were allowed to code outside of the 'standard', and if you spoke about it, it turned into an intervention.
ssnistfajen 4y ago
Speak freely about what? You think these random printout code reviews would spare you just because of your political views? That would imply Elon's Twitter is still more vested in politics than software.

pythonguython 4y ago

Because many engineers are being paid upwards of $200k to work at one of the largest social media companies. On top of that, the economy in general is uncertain right now, with many other similar tech companies not hiring as aggressively as before. Layoffs were heavy handed, but this was a company that has been historically not profitable. Those that remain are being asked to show up in person and provide proof that their work adds value to the company. I understand why some would leave, but I can’t fathom how you absolutely cannot understand the reasons many are choosing to stay.

tomp 4y ago

Because you get to work directly with one of the most productive and (technically) creative people in history? Alive right now, dining with you and reviewing your code? Plus you get to work on one of the most important platforms for world politics. If I was in SF, I’d definitely apply.

michaelt 4y ago

Collapsing companies can be an excellent way to jump several rungs on the career ladder at a time. If you're an ambitious Level 2 Hierarch and you know your Level 3 and 4 Hierarchs along with many of your fellow Level 2s have just departed, you can roll the dice and maybe become a Level 4 Hierarch before you depart in 6 months time. Experience allowing you to become a Level 4 Hierarch at a company that isn't collapsing. Of course, it isn't clear that Musk is looking to promote any Hierarchs, so this would be a gamble.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

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