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> I may be getting something wildly wrong here, but I am not sure I see the presence of this Apple ID proxy in Apple’s services logs to be a violation of either

> I may be getting something wildly wrong here, but I am not sure I see the presence of this Apple ID proxy in Apple’s services logs to be a violation of either its own policies or users’ expectations for using internet services in general. I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as an "internet service" rather than a part of the device. The iOS App Store only comes on iOS devices, it comes on all iOS devices, and it is the only way to access a crucial feature of the device. It is, for all meaningful purposes, part of the iPhone in the same way iOS is. It would be a bit like Microsoft saying "explorer.exe? Policy A only covers the OS, and that is clearly not part of Windows! - so therefore you are covered by Policy B". While Apple may be legally in the right, I strongly believe they are morally in the wrong and have betrayed the trust their users put in them to safeguard their privacy. I believe that a casual user of the iPhone would take a look at Apple's iPhone privacy policy and expect that to apply to the iOS App Store as well, as for all intents and purposes that is a part of the iPhone.

simonh 4y ago
>I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as an "internet service" It’s entire purpose is to look up data and download stuff across the internet. How can it not be an internet service? How much use could it be if it was cut off from internet connectivity, what would you even do in it?
- Lukas_Skywalker 4y ago
  Sure, it requires internet for it to work, just as the phone itself requires cellular service so you can make a call. Calling is still part of the phone. Of how much use is an iPhone without the App Store? You can still use the preinstalled apps, but your expectation as a consumer is that you can install new apps. This expectation is broken without the App Store.
  - verisimi 4y ago
    With a name like yours, I was expecting you to point this out: "These are not device analytics, they are services analytics." "These Are Not the Droids You Are Looking For"
1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
"It would be like Microsoft saying "explorer.exe? Policy A only covers the OS, and that is clearly not part of Windows! - so therefore you are covered by Policy B." This made me remember a long time ago when I ran Windows I used to disable explorer.exe by editing a certain registry key. Not sure if this still works today, but it did back then. This reduced distraction as only one window could be maxmized at a time. Also made the OS feel more stable and snappier. In any event it was one less memory-consuming process running.
- drooopy 4y ago
  I remember that back in the windows 95 days i used the same trick to load progman.exe instead of explorer.exe during boot. I was too used to the Windows 3.1 desktop environment...
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
    IIRC, I think I used taskmgr.exe as a substitute program launcher instead of explorer.exe's "Start" button and menu. I, too, was originally a Windows 3.11 for Workgroups user.
klabb3 4y ago
Finally, someone puts words on the irks I felt the last times this came up. Thank you. Apple is basically loopholing all the shitty ad-tech engagement surveillance bs that plagues the rest of the industry through the app store, pretending like it's any other app. Of course they can, but a lot of the hard-line privacy stuff goes down the drain with the hypocrisy. What bothers me is that Apple really doesn't have to move in this direction, at all. They've been uniquely positioned to basically do things that nobody else can, because they sell so much expensive hardware. Instead, all mega corps seem to blend together and follow the same playbook. It's sad.
- dessant 4y ago
  The public dismissal of the evidence these researchers presented in the last few weeks was surprising. It isn't truly important whether the App Store is an integral component of iOS, which it practically is until Apple becomes compliant with the provisions of the Digital Markets Act, it merely compounds their legal issues due to ignoring user intent when iOS analytics are disabled. The main issue here is that Apple has been collecting personal data for years through its own apps without informed consent, which is in breach of GDPR. You need to ask for express consent to collect personal data in the form of non-essential user analytics, having a privacy policy and a toggle in settings to opt out of data collection is not enough, and it does not matter if the data collection is done by a website, app or an operating system. It was particularly frustrating to see people argue that it's just an older version of iOS, when the reality is that one needs to hack an iPhone to see how this data is being syphoned off, and that jailbreaks for new iOS versions can be prohibitively expensive to achieve. Despite that, researchers pointed out that they see similar encrypted packets being sent with a recent iOS version. I think it's worrying that consumers can't inspect the traffic of a device they own, and this is also an area that should be regulated so that our rights are respected.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    In the longer term Apple has a bigger issue here (though related to GDPR) : being a US company it's effectively illegal in the UE. And after several attempts to pretend that US laws like the Patriot Act that remove non-US citizen rights were compatible with the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights have been struck down by the Court of Justice of the EU (after the US has been caught violating these rights) it's starting to be hard to imagine what kind of agreement can possibly happen between the USA and the EU that would make US companies legal again...
yreg 4y ago
Devil's advocate: Contrary to explorer.exe, App Store is an internet service in the sense that it requires sending requests to backend for pretty much any user action. There is zero functionality without a data connection.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  How does that justify logging user actions? Just because you can log customer requests does not mean it is morally right to do so.
  - yreg 4y ago
    I am responding to a specific argument. That argument is that App Store is not an internet service. I say it is.
    - cmeacham98 4y ago
      The point is not that the App Store isn't an online service (although I would argue that it more "relies on" an online service), but that its role as part of the OS supersedes that. I can't go back and edit my comment now, but to make it more clear I probably should have written something like: > I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as ___only___ an "internet service" rather than...
      - grog454 4y ago
        Why can't we just say internet service or not, privacy applies. My banking is done through internet services and I still have privacy expectations there.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Windows is now entirely an internet service as you need a microsoft account and internet connection to install it.
  - 4y ago
r0m4n0 4y ago
I'm not sure what is being argued by the semantics here but the app store is an important aspect of the device but does that make it not an internet service? An app store by definition is almost a direct equivalent to a web browser. It's just a tool to allow you to move data/code onto your device to do more things. Without it, your device still has a functioning OS. Apple has coupled the functionality of app installation and a curated remote repository of apps on the internet and bundled it as "the app store." I'd say most people aren't referring to the app installation aspect when they refer to the app store. If an app store is a glorified web browser and apple is maintaining content that is loaded into it, it's almost the definition of an internet service no?
- placatedmayhem 4y ago
  It's not just a web browser, though. It's the sole method to install software, most similar to a package manager on a desktop operating system. On your point, many package managers do have the ability to browse the remote index of the software they can install (e.g. `brew search [X]`, dnf search [X]`). However, the primary purpose of a package manager, including the App Store, is to install and manage software. This is a critical operating system function, made more critical on iOS by the fact that the App Store is the only way to get software.
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  Let me repost what I wrote elsewhere in this thread: The point is not that the App Store isn't an online service (although I would argue that it more "relies on" an online service), but that its role as part of the OS supersedes that. I can't go back and edit my comment now, but to make it more clear I probably should have written something like: > I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as ___only___ an "internet service" rather than...
  - r0m4n0 4y ago
    Ok yea agreed. I think it’s more than one thing, including an internet service
timmg 4y ago
> I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as an "internet service" rather than a part of the device. It's also on the web, e.g.: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/facebook/id284882215 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/facebook/id284882215 Which means apps, for example, show up on Google searches.

simonh 4y ago

>I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as an "internet service" It’s entire purpose is to look up data and download stuff across the internet. How can it not be an internet service? How much use could it be if it was cut off from internet connectivity, what would you even do in it?

Lukas_Skywalker 4y ago
Sure, it requires internet for it to work, just as the phone itself requires cellular service so you can make a call. Calling is still part of the phone. Of how much use is an iPhone without the App Store? You can still use the preinstalled apps, but your expectation as a consumer is that you can install new apps. This expectation is broken without the App Store.
- verisimi 4y ago
  With a name like yours, I was expecting you to point this out: "These are not device analytics, they are services analytics." "These Are Not the Droids You Are Looking For"

1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago

"It would be like Microsoft saying "explorer.exe? Policy A only covers the OS, and that is clearly not part of Windows! - so therefore you are covered by Policy B." This made me remember a long time ago when I ran Windows I used to disable explorer.exe by editing a certain registry key. Not sure if this still works today, but it did back then. This reduced distraction as only one window could be maxmized at a time. Also made the OS feel more stable and snappier. In any event it was one less memory-consuming process running.

drooopy 4y ago
I remember that back in the windows 95 days i used the same trick to load progman.exe instead of explorer.exe during boot. I was too used to the Windows 3.1 desktop environment...
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
  IIRC, I think I used taskmgr.exe as a substitute program launcher instead of explorer.exe's "Start" button and menu. I, too, was originally a Windows 3.11 for Workgroups user.

klabb3 4y ago

Finally, someone puts words on the irks I felt the last times this came up. Thank you. Apple is basically loopholing all the shitty ad-tech engagement surveillance bs that plagues the rest of the industry through the app store, pretending like it's any other app. Of course they can, but a lot of the hard-line privacy stuff goes down the drain with the hypocrisy. What bothers me is that Apple really doesn't have to move in this direction, at all. They've been uniquely positioned to basically do things that nobody else can, because they sell so much expensive hardware. Instead, all mega corps seem to blend together and follow the same playbook. It's sad.

dessant 4y ago
The public dismissal of the evidence these researchers presented in the last few weeks was surprising. It isn't truly important whether the App Store is an integral component of iOS, which it practically is until Apple becomes compliant with the provisions of the Digital Markets Act, it merely compounds their legal issues due to ignoring user intent when iOS analytics are disabled. The main issue here is that Apple has been collecting personal data for years through its own apps without informed consent, which is in breach of GDPR. You need to ask for express consent to collect personal data in the form of non-essential user analytics, having a privacy policy and a toggle in settings to opt out of data collection is not enough, and it does not matter if the data collection is done by a website, app or an operating system. It was particularly frustrating to see people argue that it's just an older version of iOS, when the reality is that one needs to hack an iPhone to see how this data is being syphoned off, and that jailbreaks for new iOS versions can be prohibitively expensive to achieve. Despite that, researchers pointed out that they see similar encrypted packets being sent with a recent iOS version. I think it's worrying that consumers can't inspect the traffic of a device they own, and this is also an area that should be regulated so that our rights are respected.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  In the longer term Apple has a bigger issue here (though related to GDPR) : being a US company it's effectively illegal in the UE. And after several attempts to pretend that US laws like the Patriot Act that remove non-US citizen rights were compatible with the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights have been struck down by the Court of Justice of the EU (after the US has been caught violating these rights) it's starting to be hard to imagine what kind of agreement can possibly happen between the USA and the EU that would make US companies legal again...

yreg 4y ago

Devil's advocate: Contrary to explorer.exe, App Store is an internet service in the sense that it requires sending requests to backend for pretty much any user action. There is zero functionality without a data connection.

newaccount74 4y ago
How does that justify logging user actions? Just because you can log customer requests does not mean it is morally right to do so.
- yreg 4y ago
  I am responding to a specific argument. That argument is that App Store is not an internet service. I say it is.
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    The point is not that the App Store isn't an online service (although I would argue that it more "relies on" an online service), but that its role as part of the OS supersedes that. I can't go back and edit my comment now, but to make it more clear I probably should have written something like: > I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as ___only___ an "internet service" rather than...
    - grog454 4y ago
      Why can't we just say internet service or not, privacy applies. My banking is done through internet services and I still have privacy expectations there.
quickthrower2 4y ago
Windows is now entirely an internet service as you need a microsoft account and internet connection to install it.
- 4y ago

r0m4n0 4y ago

I'm not sure what is being argued by the semantics here but the app store is an important aspect of the device but does that make it not an internet service? An app store by definition is almost a direct equivalent to a web browser. It's just a tool to allow you to move data/code onto your device to do more things. Without it, your device still has a functioning OS. Apple has coupled the functionality of app installation and a curated remote repository of apps on the internet and bundled it as "the app store." I'd say most people aren't referring to the app installation aspect when they refer to the app store. If an app store is a glorified web browser and apple is maintaining content that is loaded into it, it's almost the definition of an internet service no?

placatedmayhem 4y ago
It's not just a web browser, though. It's the sole method to install software, most similar to a package manager on a desktop operating system. On your point, many package managers do have the ability to browse the remote index of the software they can install (e.g. `brew search [X]`, dnf search [X]`). However, the primary purpose of a package manager, including the App Store, is to install and manage software. This is a critical operating system function, made more critical on iOS by the fact that the App Store is the only way to get software.
cmeacham98 4y ago
Let me repost what I wrote elsewhere in this thread: The point is not that the App Store isn't an online service (although I would argue that it more "relies on" an online service), but that its role as part of the OS supersedes that. I can't go back and edit my comment now, but to make it more clear I probably should have written something like: > I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as ___only___ an "internet service" rather than...
- r0m4n0 4y ago
  Ok yea agreed. I think it’s more than one thing, including an internet service

timmg 4y ago

> I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as an "internet service" rather than a part of the device. It's also on the web, e.g.: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/facebook/id284882215 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/facebook/id284882215 Which means apps, for example, show up on Google searches.