6 ms·

There’s No Algorithms

50 points by twapi 4y ago

cassianoleal 4y ago
So, Tumblr has no algorithms? How do they present the webpage to the user? How do their webservers, load balancers, databases, etc. work? Cranks?
- beebeepka 4y ago
  Krangs. An army
- scottmsul 4y ago
  I'm guessing he means there's no algorithms that decide what you see and what you don't, you just see everything from everyone you follow. But I don't use Tumblr so I'm not 100% sure.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    They still do. There are algorithms to fetch whatever will be shown on your feed. They may be as straightforward as fetching a user's follow list and displaying their posts chronologically in reverse. That's still an algorithm. I'm sure Gaiman means specifically the kind of "smart" feed algorithm like FB etc employ. That said, I really dislike this trend of equating "algorithms" to something wicked. I write them for a living, and I'd rather we kept writing and employing them.
    - evanelias 4y ago
      > They may be as straightforward as fetching a user's follow list and displaying their posts chronologically in reverse. That's still an algorithm. Correct, it's absolutely an algorithm. Crucially, it involves extra steps to make it scalable without needing a materialized inbox. Or at least that's how Tumblr's reverse-chron dashboard worked from 2009ish through at least 2018, maybe still today. There were a bunch of optimizations in there to keep the queries fast, and minimize the number of rows that need to be examined and sorted. One key step involved cross-referencing the blogs you follow against their latest post timestamp. For example, say you're fetching posts 11-20 on the reverse-chron feed. The worst-case is that posts 1-20 all come from different blogs, so you can sort the list of followed blogs by latest-post-timestamp, and then only examine/sort posts from the top 20. (That's a slight simplification; you actually need to look at the timestamp from post 10, and examine posts from however many followed blogs posted since then, plus 10 more. I spent months of my life tuning this stuff back in 2011-2012...) That all said, in the context of dashboard feeds, "algorithm" often just means the opposite of reverse-chron. But even then, the "no algorithms" statement is completely incorrect! Tumblr has a "Best Stuff First" setting which controls whether or not your feed is reverse-chron. For a while in late 2017 (iirc) onwards, this setting was even enabled by default... maybe still is?
- sbdaman 4y ago
  "Algorithm" is used in everyday language to mean "system of determining which content you get shown and the order it gets shown in." The "absence" of an "algorithm" in this context just means "you are shown the content generated by people you follow in the order that it is published." I have a hard time believing you didn't understand the original post. Obviously the above does not mean there are no algorithms in a literal sense.
- mechanical_bear 4y ago
  Gnomes.
falcolas 4y ago
"There's no algorithms [...] Read what comes across your dashboard" I love Neil Gaiman's works, but he's no technology wizard - he's an author trying to surf this insanity we call social media. And that's OK. There are algorithms, yet his advice is still sound.
- booleandilemma 4y ago
  I've noticed that among the non-programmer crowd "algorithm" has come to mean any sort of auto-suggest feature. I suppose we can blame a combination of ignorance and marketing.
tacker2000 4y ago
I think he specifically means “timeline algorithms”. In any case, it doesnt really seem like he knows anything about this sort of stuff.
dragontamer 4y ago
I'm amused that Tumblr is becoming a frontrunner as Twitter replacement. I'm not 100% convinced by it, but it _seems_ like a better proper replacement than Mastodon (sorry FOSS people, but... centralized logins is a big deal compared to federated spaces). At least, its the closest thing I've seen discussed that seems to do a similar job to Twitter. Sharing comments / images / short form video with a large community of communities with a somewhat trusted login / identity Mastodon doesn't fix that, because Alice@instance1.com doesn't necessarily mean you're talking to Alice. It could be a malicious Alice. Maybe the "real" Alice is Alice@instanceAlpha.com. Twitter used to have blue-checkmarks for this, but that identify management seems to be getting destroyed by the current chaos, and people are rightfully wondering how to get a trusted identity for their discussions.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > Mastodon doesn't fix that, because Alice@instance1.com doesn't necessarily mean you're talking to Alice. It could be a malicious Alice. Maybe the "real" Alice is Alice@instanceAlpha.com. Okay, I'll bite; how do you know that the Tumblr user actualice12345 is the real Alice?
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    EDIT: I probably should note that I don't use Tumblr and I don't know the full context of this image https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXC71NFX4AAUPX3?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXC71NFX4AAUPX3?format=jpg&name=... I'm not a Tumblr or Twitter user. But it seems like Tumblr has a degree of identity verification going on with its users. ----- Even Reddit has these kinds of simple checks to make "Ask me Anything" a more legitimate-feeling experience. When a famous reporter posts a picture of Reddit-account name + face for people to see and do on an AMA, it helps verify the identity. (And if that's too much for the AMA user, having a trusted moderator do that kind of check can serve as a good substitute)
  - idlewords 4y ago
    The way it's always worked; she can publicly post the link to her Tumblr on her Alice.com homepage, or you confirm with her in private outside of Tumblr.
seydor 4y ago
I m using twitter in time order anyway which is not different. But props to Matt for reviving Tumblr. But twitters wont be a good match there
- jaywee 4y ago
  Here's a thought from a former Twitter dev on timeline-vs-top: https://social.lot23.com/@jon/109372257422277945 https://social.lot23.com/@jon/109372257422277945
  - seydor 4y ago
    I stopped reading a little after > normal people What a bunch of manipulative bastards. Instead of giving people the freedom to curate their timelines, and educating them how to do so, they prefer to give them spoonfed feeds because "users are lazy". Everyone is lazy, it's basic energy conservation principle, but if people stopped motivating each other to learn we d still be living in caves. Calling people "Normal people" just shows how entitled these devs are
amadeuspagel 4y ago
I saw a bunch of posts on the tumblr frontpage without being logged in. How are these determined, if not by some kind of algorithm? I made a new account and I saw a bunch of posts on my feed, apparently personalized based on my past surfing, without having followed anyone. Again, same question. I have nothing against "algorithms", but why is the CEO of the company that owns tumblr reblogging someone making claims about tumblr that are just not true?
- luckylion 4y ago
  They literally have a "trending" page [1], yeah, that claim is strange. [1] https://www.tumblr.com/explore/trending https://www.tumblr.com/explore/trending
  - antifa 4y ago
    When you're logged in and looking at your dashboard, you see things in reverse chronological.
    - amadeuspagel 4y ago
      I've finally been able to follow someone (I tried this already yesterday, but their posts didn't show up in my feed) and I see their posts now, but interspersed with "check out these blogs". It's a million times more obnoxious then twitter, and on twitter you have "latest tweets" mode where actually see only the tweets from people you follow, in reverse chronological order and nothing else.
dilap 4y ago
Surprisingly little known, but Twitter also has a strict-timeline mode. It's great! Tap the pair of stars in the upper-right to bring up a menu to turn it on.
mechanical_bear 4y ago
I really haven’t seen much difference, other than much hand wringing, with my Twitter experience.
fleddr 4y ago
The supposed post-Twitter situation is entirely imaginary and typical of Twitter culture: hysterical, performative, not really rooted in any fact whatsoever. But for the sake of argument, let's go along with the idea that a major shift is happening. The thing is, everything people found great about Twitter, they will not find in alternatives like Mastodon or Tumblr. Those networks are organic, more personal and bubble-like, and relatively peaceful. Which is healthy, but entirely the opposite of Twitter which is algorithmic amplification of hot takes, outrage, division and the many engagement farming tactics that come along with it. On an organic reach platform, that behavior doesn't work. Which is a steep change. To a Twitter user, such a platform will feel broken. It's quiet, peaceful, and they're not ranking up followers or influence with low effort hot takes. Not only that, the hot takes may get them banned. Twitter users have been using toxicity as a tool for so many years that they've normalized behavior and language that is widely unacceptable outside Twitter. Twitter users escaping Twitter do not want something completely different. They want Twitter but without Elon Musk. Which is largely performative. But you can't replicate the Twitter experience outside of Twitter. Note how none of the big accounts are leaving. A true departure means deleting your account. Nobody does it. They keep rambling on about Mastodon yet fail to get even 5% of their followers there. They keep coming back to say how great Mastodon is, but never actually leave Twitter. Some may deactivate their account but never delete it. They know very well that a big following on Twitter cannot be recreated anywhere else. The other thing the alternatives cannot replace is Twitter's news factor. Whether it is sports, coverage of war, whatever is happening in the world, it's happening in real time on Twitter. Absolutely never on Mastodon.
Imnimo 4y ago
Meanwhile, we're all here reading this post on a site with "an algorithm"...

50 points by twapi 4y ago

So, Tumblr has no algorithms? How do they present the webpage to the user? How do their webservers, load balancers, databases, etc. work? Cranks?

beebeepka 4y ago
Krangs. An army
scottmsul 4y ago
I'm guessing he means there's no algorithms that decide what you see and what you don't, you just see everything from everyone you follow. But I don't use Tumblr so I'm not 100% sure.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  They still do. There are algorithms to fetch whatever will be shown on your feed. They may be as straightforward as fetching a user's follow list and displaying their posts chronologically in reverse. That's still an algorithm. I'm sure Gaiman means specifically the kind of "smart" feed algorithm like FB etc employ. That said, I really dislike this trend of equating "algorithms" to something wicked. I write them for a living, and I'd rather we kept writing and employing them.
  - evanelias 4y ago
    > They may be as straightforward as fetching a user's follow list and displaying their posts chronologically in reverse. That's still an algorithm. Correct, it's absolutely an algorithm. Crucially, it involves extra steps to make it scalable without needing a materialized inbox. Or at least that's how Tumblr's reverse-chron dashboard worked from 2009ish through at least 2018, maybe still today. There were a bunch of optimizations in there to keep the queries fast, and minimize the number of rows that need to be examined and sorted. One key step involved cross-referencing the blogs you follow against their latest post timestamp. For example, say you're fetching posts 11-20 on the reverse-chron feed. The worst-case is that posts 1-20 all come from different blogs, so you can sort the list of followed blogs by latest-post-timestamp, and then only examine/sort posts from the top 20. (That's a slight simplification; you actually need to look at the timestamp from post 10, and examine posts from however many followed blogs posted since then, plus 10 more. I spent months of my life tuning this stuff back in 2011-2012...) That all said, in the context of dashboard feeds, "algorithm" often just means the opposite of reverse-chron. But even then, the "no algorithms" statement is completely incorrect! Tumblr has a "Best Stuff First" setting which controls whether or not your feed is reverse-chron. For a while in late 2017 (iirc) onwards, this setting was even enabled by default... maybe still is?
sbdaman 4y ago
"Algorithm" is used in everyday language to mean "system of determining which content you get shown and the order it gets shown in." The "absence" of an "algorithm" in this context just means "you are shown the content generated by people you follow in the order that it is published." I have a hard time believing you didn't understand the original post. Obviously the above does not mean there are no algorithms in a literal sense.
mechanical_bear 4y ago
Gnomes.

falcolas 4y ago

"There's no algorithms [...] Read what comes across your dashboard" I love Neil Gaiman's works, but he's no technology wizard - he's an author trying to surf this insanity we call social media. And that's OK. There are algorithms, yet his advice is still sound.

booleandilemma 4y ago
I've noticed that among the non-programmer crowd "algorithm" has come to mean any sort of auto-suggest feature. I suppose we can blame a combination of ignorance and marketing.

tacker2000 4y ago

I think he specifically means “timeline algorithms”. In any case, it doesnt really seem like he knows anything about this sort of stuff.

dragontamer 4y ago

I'm amused that Tumblr is becoming a frontrunner as Twitter replacement. I'm not 100% convinced by it, but it _seems_ like a better proper replacement than Mastodon (sorry FOSS people, but... centralized logins is a big deal compared to federated spaces). At least, its the closest thing I've seen discussed that seems to do a similar job to Twitter. Sharing comments / images / short form video with a large community of communities with a somewhat trusted login / identity Mastodon doesn't fix that, because Alice@instance1.com doesn't necessarily mean you're talking to Alice. It could be a malicious Alice. Maybe the "real" Alice is Alice@instanceAlpha.com. Twitter used to have blue-checkmarks for this, but that identify management seems to be getting destroyed by the current chaos, and people are rightfully wondering how to get a trusted identity for their discussions.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> Mastodon doesn't fix that, because Alice@instance1.com doesn't necessarily mean you're talking to Alice. It could be a malicious Alice. Maybe the "real" Alice is Alice@instanceAlpha.com. Okay, I'll bite; how do you know that the Tumblr user actualice12345 is the real Alice?
- dragontamer 4y ago
  EDIT: I probably should note that I don't use Tumblr and I don't know the full context of this image https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXC71NFX4AAUPX3?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXC71NFX4AAUPX3?format=jpg&name=... I'm not a Tumblr or Twitter user. But it seems like Tumblr has a degree of identity verification going on with its users. ----- Even Reddit has these kinds of simple checks to make "Ask me Anything" a more legitimate-feeling experience. When a famous reporter posts a picture of Reddit-account name + face for people to see and do on an AMA, it helps verify the identity. (And if that's too much for the AMA user, having a trusted moderator do that kind of check can serve as a good substitute)
- idlewords 4y ago
  The way it's always worked; she can publicly post the link to her Tumblr on her Alice.com homepage, or you confirm with her in private outside of Tumblr.

seydor 4y ago

I m using twitter in time order anyway which is not different. But props to Matt for reviving Tumblr. But twitters wont be a good match there

jaywee 4y ago
Here's a thought from a former Twitter dev on timeline-vs-top: https://social.lot23.com/@jon/109372257422277945 https://social.lot23.com/@jon/109372257422277945
- seydor 4y ago
  I stopped reading a little after > normal people What a bunch of manipulative bastards. Instead of giving people the freedom to curate their timelines, and educating them how to do so, they prefer to give them spoonfed feeds because "users are lazy". Everyone is lazy, it's basic energy conservation principle, but if people stopped motivating each other to learn we d still be living in caves. Calling people "Normal people" just shows how entitled these devs are

amadeuspagel 4y ago

I saw a bunch of posts on the tumblr frontpage without being logged in. How are these determined, if not by some kind of algorithm? I made a new account and I saw a bunch of posts on my feed, apparently personalized based on my past surfing, without having followed anyone. Again, same question. I have nothing against "algorithms", but why is the CEO of the company that owns tumblr reblogging someone making claims about tumblr that are just not true?

luckylion 4y ago
They literally have a "trending" page [1], yeah, that claim is strange. [1] https://www.tumblr.com/explore/trending https://www.tumblr.com/explore/trending
- antifa 4y ago
  When you're logged in and looking at your dashboard, you see things in reverse chronological.
  - amadeuspagel 4y ago
    I've finally been able to follow someone (I tried this already yesterday, but their posts didn't show up in my feed) and I see their posts now, but interspersed with "check out these blogs". It's a million times more obnoxious then twitter, and on twitter you have "latest tweets" mode where actually see only the tweets from people you follow, in reverse chronological order and nothing else.

dilap 4y ago

Surprisingly little known, but Twitter also has a strict-timeline mode. It's great! Tap the pair of stars in the upper-right to bring up a menu to turn it on.

mechanical_bear 4y ago

I really haven’t seen much difference, other than much hand wringing, with my Twitter experience.

fleddr 4y ago

The supposed post-Twitter situation is entirely imaginary and typical of Twitter culture: hysterical, performative, not really rooted in any fact whatsoever. But for the sake of argument, let's go along with the idea that a major shift is happening. The thing is, everything people found great about Twitter, they will not find in alternatives like Mastodon or Tumblr. Those networks are organic, more personal and bubble-like, and relatively peaceful. Which is healthy, but entirely the opposite of Twitter which is algorithmic amplification of hot takes, outrage, division and the many engagement farming tactics that come along with it. On an organic reach platform, that behavior doesn't work. Which is a steep change. To a Twitter user, such a platform will feel broken. It's quiet, peaceful, and they're not ranking up followers or influence with low effort hot takes. Not only that, the hot takes may get them banned. Twitter users have been using toxicity as a tool for so many years that they've normalized behavior and language that is widely unacceptable outside Twitter. Twitter users escaping Twitter do not want something completely different. They want Twitter but without Elon Musk. Which is largely performative. But you can't replicate the Twitter experience outside of Twitter. Note how none of the big accounts are leaving. A true departure means deleting your account. Nobody does it. They keep rambling on about Mastodon yet fail to get even 5% of their followers there. They keep coming back to say how great Mastodon is, but never actually leave Twitter. Some may deactivate their account but never delete it. They know very well that a big following on Twitter cannot be recreated anywhere else. The other thing the alternatives cannot replace is Twitter's news factor. Whether it is sports, coverage of war, whatever is happening in the world, it's happening in real time on Twitter. Absolutely never on Mastodon.

Imnimo 4y ago

Meanwhile, we're all here reading this post on a site with "an algorithm"...