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Reddit admin: "If SOPA passes it would almost certainly mean the end of reddit"

427 points by gasull 15y ago

pire 15y ago
Just come to Spain guys :)
- masklinn 15y ago
  They could host Reddit in Spain (or anywhere else), but the whole US "market" would still be closed to it (via DNS blocks). And I'm betting the majority of Reddit's population is from the US. And of course other countries will probably decide to follow the US's lead.
  - redthrowaway 15y ago
    >And I'm betting it's the majority of Reddit's population is from the US. Not an absolute majority, but it is by far their largest market.
  - frisco 15y ago
    Is this true even if they're not hosted on a US-controlled TLD such as .com? If they use the .es TLD, then shouldn't anyone with access to a name server that accurately mirrors the zones for that domain have access? I don't see how it's in the US's power to prevent that. Perhaps there'd be a transition period where international name servers stop trusting US mirrors of international TLDs and US root name servers, but if you stop using those it should still work. Right?
    - gasull 15y ago
      > If they use the .es TLD, then shouldn't anyone with access to a name server that accurately mirrors the zones for that domain have access? I don't see how it's in the US's power to prevent that. I think ICANN still has the power to censor .es domains. Can anyone please either confirm or correct me? > Perhaps there'd be a transition period where international name servers stop trusting US mirrors of international TLDs and US root name servers, but if you stop using those it should still work. Right? BlockAid DNS and Telecomix DNS don't remove domains taken down by ICE. But how long until port 53 to BlockAid and Telecomix is blocked in the US? Anyway, most people won't change their nameservers and Reddit would loose most of its revenue if the domain reddit.com was taken down, and to prevent it they would need to monitor/censor the user-generated content, and they can't afford it. Bottom line: SOPA would make Reddit too expensive to run to be profitable.
      - wmf 15y ago
        I think ICANN still has the power to censor .es domains. Technically this is true, but it would cause a revolt that would just end up destroying ICANN.
        dextorious 15y ago
        """Technically this is true, but it would cause a revolt that would just end up destroying ICANN.""" Yes, because American's are so rebellious that any attempt to suppress their liberties coughpatriotactcough results in a revolt... Actually, 99% of American rebelliousness is in merely quoting the constitution and the 4 amendments in a world and a political and law system that has render most of those obsolete in practice... For example, the "right to bear arms" meant something WHEN people could use those to overturn their government --now, it's just an excuse for people to get guns to "protect their property" against robberies and such.
        wmf 15y ago
        If ICANN starts breaking non-US domains, I have a feeling it's not Americans who would revolt.
    - wmf 15y ago
      Under SOPA, a name server that accurately mirrors the zones for that domain is illegal. http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2011/12/15/stopping-sopas-anti-circumvention.html http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2011/12/15/stopping-s...
      - frisco 15y ago
        Ok, so it could be considered illegal in the US -- but it's not in the US, nor has anything to do with the US. If someone is running an accurate name server outside the US, with no ties to the US, that does no business with the US, the US can say it's "illegal" all they want but it's still there.
        masklinn 15y ago
        > If someone is running an accurate name server outside the US, with no ties to the US, that does no business with the US, the US can say it's "illegal" all they want but it's still there. Yes.
        weinzierl 15y ago
        We've been through this in Germany. When the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz passed Blogs and Forums were full with tutorials about how you can change the name server in various operating systems. The Zugangserschwerungsgesetz was never implemented so we don't know how many people would have actually used an alternative resolver.
    - weinzierl 15y ago
      As far as I understand it, they can force every DNS provider under US-jurisdiction (usually the ISP, for instance Comcast, but also OpenDNS and Google) to remove or alter DNS records. This works for .com the same as for .es, but of course it doesn't prevent you from using a name server outside the US. At least that is how the "Zugangserschwerungsgesetz" in Germany works and I think SOPA will be similar in this respect, but I might be wrong..
      - morsch 15y ago
        > At least that is how the "Zugangserschwerungsgesetz" in Germany works Worked. It was never really applied and it's been repealed since.
        weinzierl 15y ago
        That's true, it was never applied and it was revoked on 1 December 2011. Nevertheless it was valid law for almost two years.
      - jannes 15y ago
        At least that is how the "Zugangserschwerungsgesetz" in Germany works and I think SOPA will be similar in this respect, but I might be wrong.. No, that's how the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz (access hindrance law) was supposed to work. But it didn't pass and the governemt abandoned it after a public debate. Edit: ok, it turns out I'm misinformed. The law passed somehow after it was already dead, so it was never applied. Germany was lucky that somehow it was achieved to make this law subject of public debate. Maybe Americans should copy the strategies that were used by German activists back in 2008 :) But on the other hand, I think that it would be a lot more difficult to achieve this in the American media environment. America's media was asleep when the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq, it will also be asleep this time.
        weinzierl 15y ago
        It did pass indeed and was signed on February 2010, so it was valid law until it's revocation on 1 December 2011. Additionally all of the larger ISPs implemented the necessary technical infrastructure. It is true that the law was never applied, but still it was valid law.
- weinzierl 15y ago
  ACTA has just passed the Council of the European Union and Spain will have to make that into national law. The situation in Europe is much worse.
Slimy 15y ago
Veto SOPA: https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/veto-sopa-bill-and-any-other-future-bills-threaten-diminish-free-flow-information/g3W1BscR https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/veto-sopa-b...
Qz 15y ago
I'm getting certificate errors -- is this part of the point or something else?
- maqr 15y ago
  Not part of the point, try the http version: http://www.reddit.com/r/SOPA/comments/nhfes/do_you_guys_realize_this_might_mean_reddit_might/c395f00 http://www.reddit.com/r/SOPA/comments/nhfes/do_you_guys_real...
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  Chrome told me I was being redirected to Akamai, so I'm guessing it's just a configuration issue. "Proceeding anyway" takes you to the right place.
- troels 15y ago
  Had me baffled too. Explanation here: http://revealingerrors.com/akamai_ssl http://revealingerrors.com/akamai_ssl Scary stuff - I never heard of this Akamai entity before.
- soitgoes 15y ago
  Nothing in the SSL certificate returned identifies www.reddit.com hence the warning. The common name of the cert (typically used to identify the website) is actually a248.e.akamai.net. I think akamai are a service that many websites use but their generic SSL cert can cause problems. You can view the cert using: http://certlogik.com/sslchecker/www.reddit.com/ http://certlogik.com/sslchecker/www.reddit.com/
- notatoad 15y ago
  it's because OP linked to the HTTPS version of reddit, which doesn't exist. akamai will serve an HTTPS version of any page that they cache, and if the customer has not configured HTTPS they will serve it up with their certificate. reddit uses akamai for page content but not for any authentication, there are no security benefits to using https://reddit https://reddit instead of http://reddit http://reddit
joelmichael 15y ago
I'll believe it when I see it. I just don't believe the US government wants to shut down Reddit, Wikipedia, YouTube, and all of the other major sites the alarmists are claiming.
- corin_ 15y ago
  It's not a conspiracy theory that the government wants to kill these sites. But SOPA would open these sites up to problems that would be enforced by law, and which would cause them much harm, quite possibly to the extent of them shutting down. The politicians either don't understand these problems, or don't care about them - you can be the judge on that.
  - joelmichael 15y ago
    I think people are being a bit hysterical. I remember the same thing happening when the DMCA was passed. The government just wants to end flagrant abuses of piracy. I don't think they are going to sic their dogs on Reddit. Sites like YouTube are already in compliance. So, I think it does smack of conspiracy theory, yes.
    - capnrefsmmat 15y ago
      The trouble is that SOPA doesn't require government intent to cause site closures; a copyright holder must merely send a letter to a site's advertising agency or payment processor to cause its funds to be cut off in five days. No court order required. Now, the criteria is that the site is "dedicated to the theft of US property", but advertising agencies and payment processors are held immune to liability for actions they take under the law, so they have no reason to verify that the site is, in fact, dedicated to theft before shutting it down. There does not need to be an active government conspiracy for this to harm websites.
    - dpe82 15y ago
      Yes ending flagrant abuses is the stated goal of the bill, but the methods it uses toward that end leave lots of unintended consequences which will be very, very damaging. Those in support of the bill either haven't taken the time to understand those consequences or simply don't care. The conspiracy theory is that the unintended consequences are in fact intended by the MPAA/RIAA. Given their past and present behavior, it's not a stretch.
vonskippy 15y ago
One shining note to remember before everyone turns doom and gloom, in the States (if I remember what the citizenship pamphlet said when I got my green card), it's not really "law" until it stands up to a test case in a court of law. Since the congress critters are lining their pockets left and right from the lobbyists for this bill, it's not in their personal interest to turn it down, even if they know it won't stand up in court. And if it passes, it's almost guaranteed to be tested (and overturned) in court - as it's been mentioned many many times, Youtube, Google, Bing, etc etc have way too much to lose to let it go unchallenged. Seems like it's just status quo here in the States with the new "pay-n-pass" government.
- lallysingh 15y ago
  And looking at Lessig's appearance on Daily Show (about his new book), congress uses ridiculous things like this to extort money out of businesses to keep themselves in office.
- wmf 15y ago
  OTOH, a site could go out of business before SOPA is overturned.
  - jerf 15y ago
    The legal system can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
- monochromatic 15y ago
  > it's not really "law" until it stands up to a test case in a court of law This is not true. It is law until it's overturned.
  - tokenadult 15y ago
    Whether or not enforcement of the law is enjoined before that determination depends on legal criteria for injunctive relief. There may or may not be any attempt to enforce a new statute on this subject, even if the statute is passed and the President signs it. I'm sure lawyers are already thinking about how to challenge (and how to defend!) the statute in the court system if it is passed and signed.
blantonl 15y ago
Considering HN is all user generated content, does pg have a perspective on SOPA's potential impact on HN?
sehugg 15y ago
This reminds me of a story about the first atomic bomb test. Not too long before the first detonation was to occur, some scientists voiced a concern that there was a slim chance that the blast would be strong enough to ignite the atmosphere and pretty much destroy the world. These voices were in the minority, and disproved through calculation and common sense -- but the official paper disproving it did not arrive until a year later. So the first atomic bomb was detonated with a few lingering doubts about whether it would instantly destroy the world. This is what the SOPA debate feels like to me, except there are no reasoned arguments disproving its opponents' worst fears, just pat dismissals of the opposition.
- ericd 15y ago
  I don't think that many are arguing that it's going to be an obvious complete annihilation. The backlash would be far too large if Reddit actually went down. More likely, it's just going to be small sites here and there that are too small to defend themselves, and that not enough people care about seeing go away to make an outcry loud enough for Washington to hear. That's what's really scary about it - that it will have very bad, almost silent effects that few outside of tech notice.
  - MaxGabriel 15y ago
    So like, Reddit in 2005?
    - ericd 15y ago
      Yeah, 2005 Reddit would probably be pretty screwed. Areas with a lot of user generated content might calcify if this big barrier to entry comes in, and only the big incumbent players are safe. I imagine the fact that govt. clearly wants this is probably already going to have a chilling effect on riskier areas, even if nothing gets passed.
    - obtu 15y ago
      As well as digg, for not cracking down hard enough at the time 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 was extracted.
mkramlich 15y ago
it's interesting to me that the same folks who wanted Citzens United because it was supposedly pro free speech are also in favor of SOPA which is pretty clearly anti free speech. what they have in common is both favor large corporations at the expense of individuals and the non-rich. more freedom for the former and less for the latter. not a good trend in a country historically and ostensibly founded on individual liberty and non-aristocracy.
- scarmig 15y ago
  Just to be fair, the people most invested in destroying campaign finance reform (the Cato folks) have been pretty good when it comes to SOPA. Of course, I'd say the people they serve are are quite happy to ignore them when it's convenient for the court aristocracy, but I can't see them as guilty of any obvious inconsistencies.
- jacoblyles 15y ago
  I like Citizens United and I dislike SOPA. That's just one data point, but strong free speech advocates do exist.
  - Bo102010 15y ago
    Likewise. I side with the ACLU on Citizens United - i.e. that the Supreme Court decided it correctly. You can rationally be displeased what you expect the outcome of the case to be (e.g. increased ability for corporate financing of election campaigns), but I don't think there's a coherent defense of the sections of BCRA that the court struck down. ETA: The government argued that BCRA would allow them to ban, for example, a 500 page book that contained a single sentence endorsing a candidate (http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/29/will-elena-kagan-allow-books/print http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/29/will-elena-kagan-allow...). If you think SOPA is heavy-handed, just think what BCRA could have led to.
    - wallawe 15y ago
      What is the ACLU's stance on SOPA?
astrodust 15y ago
If you wanted to implement something like this, regardless of merit, then DNS blocking is by far the worst way to go about doing it. Anyone with an interest in using pirate sites will simply switch to alternate DNS providers, there will always be a way, and legitimate users will be subject to rampant and arbitrary censorship in the name of "stopping piracy". You can't stop piracy. It's a supply and demand problem. It's a perception problem. How can you convince someone that the TV show that is broadcast for free over the air is legal, but downloading exactly the same show at a later time is illegal? Companies have all the tools they need to reduce piracy but they refuse to use them, instead trying to extort money from people through more conventional means. They'd rather have ten sales at $20 than thousands at $1.
- pyre 15y ago
  Cutting off the advertising revenues will definitely slow down piracy sites. SOPA isn't just about DNS.
  - astrodust 15y ago
    It'll put a dent in their revenue, but it'll also open up a massive market for underground advertisers.
- samstave 15y ago
  >You can't stop piracy. It's a supply and demand problem. It's a perception problem. I would go further; it is a greed/exploitative problem. You have every type of good in the world manufactured/produced/farmed/coded/filmed/etc. for far less than what the retail cost is. (the initial arguement is supply and demand) -- but that is simply false. Look at profits and margins. Apple and every oil company in the world is the perfect example of why this is true. Their supply is NOT in concordance with demand. Their profits and margins show this. Other business models have proven this out; make things cost less - and more people will buy. Actually, to Apples credit - this is an area where they are showing this; Apps that cost ~.99 are seen to be a value to the user at that cost thus paid apps make tons. (However, if you look at margins, again Apple fails. Their margin on paid apps is between 100% and ~5% (if you try to figure in the cost of the overall infrastructure to supply the apps (i*Device development etc. though the mobile market has a lot of outlying factors which refudiate the margin cost to apple, whereas the iPad is a device wholly dependent on the app market)
wavephorm 15y ago
The real problem is it's not just SOPA. This authoritarian trend has been going on since 9/11. The Patriot Act, Homeland Security, the Secure Fence Act, and recently NDAA, and PIPA. Each one is a clever euphemism design to conceal its true dystopian purpose. The American regime is strengthening itself to unprecedented levels... for what? Generally countries do not strip its citizens of so many civil liberties unless there is a clear goal ahead. We will probably find out in the next few years.
- srl 15y ago
  > Generally countries do not strip its citizens of so many civil liberties unless there is a clear goal ahead. Not sure about that. I think the natural tendency is for any institution to try to grab more power, no matter what the situation is - since 9/11, congress has found doing so unusually easy, and has responded by taking advantage of the opportunity. That's not to say the abuses aren't only a few years away, but I don't think these power-grabs have been done with those abuses as a perceived goal. They're just power-grabs.
  - ldar15 15y ago
    Power-grabs are the abuse. There need not be any imoral motive behind the desire for this power, nor any plan to use them "for evil". We have already seen (UMG) that, given such power, there will be "accidental" abuse that has a major, negative effect on small players and citizens. Even if you believe that these were genuine "accidents", do you believe that it is acceptable to allow these interests to have such power? Do you think it is just about "unimportant" things like copying music? The US is still the worlds largest superpower, but compared to 20 years ago it has vastly less power. Its power has declined and continues to do so. Any student of history will tell you that this is exactly when states transform from free nations to fascist states.
    - bluekeybox 15y ago
      > Any student of history will tell you that this is exactly when states transform from free nations to fascist states. No, absolutely not, that's not how it happens. Go back and read your history books. Also, Godwin is not on your side.
gasull 15y ago
If SOPA passes, every user-generated content website is going to have tremendous costs, in many cases prohibitive. I think only Facebook and a few players would have the resources to police their content. This is going to be really bad for Silicon Valley and the startup community.
- jerf 15y ago
  Actually, thanks to the economics of computer startups, the big players, if they were held to the same standards as everybody else, are worse off. They have fewer people-per-post than smaller sites, not more. It's that whole scaling thing that is the reason why computer startups can be so exciting and lucrative. Of course, the key phrase here is "if they were held to the same standard as everybody else". Though I think the second-order effects of SOPA would be more bizarre on something like Facebook than you'd think at first blush. The mere fact that they could still be legally shut down in a heartbeat still can't help but have a profound effect on their world even if the trigger is never actually pulled for fear of generating an uproar.
paulhauggis 15y ago
People care so much about SOPA, but not as much about the Internet Tax Bill, which means every small e-commerce site will be forced to collect taxes for every jurisdiction in the US. I seriously doubt all of them have the manpower or money to properly collect sales tax.
- ams6110 15y ago
  Sounds like an opportunity for a web service. Post total sale and customer's state, get back the tax due and a token. If/when the sale is finalized, post the token back and have them track your taxes due to each state. Monthly, invoice the total amount due, and pay each state, keeping a service fee.
  - adgar 15y ago
    I got distracted typing my response so I ended up responding 22 minutes after you. Damn.
  - dangrossman 15y ago
    To compute sales tax in the US, you need a full address and product type(s). Not even zip code is granular enough to determine the tax rate. It can vary by county, township, inside/outside city limits, and in all these different combinations (literally thousands for the whole country) what items are subject to sales tax varies region by region too. For example, most states don't tax web design service, but there are a few that do. Most states don't tax advertising services, but a few do, and it depends what type of advertising is being bought. Passing on an address and a total to an API will do the trick 99% of the time, but technically, some of the businesses using that API are going to fail to collect sales tax in some cases where they should. I am hopeful that if enough state legislatures get serious about taxing internet sales, they'll band together to do some nationwide standardization. That kind of thing can't come down from the federal government; congress has no authority to tell a local municipality it can't levy its own sales tax, but state governments can. Kind of like how they all agreed (is it all? I think one or two didn't) to the Uniform Commercial Code so that the basic laws of sale contracts are the same in every state.
- 15y ago
mhartl 15y ago
HN admin: please s/https/http/ in the story link.
zotz 15y ago
"The nature of law is to maintain justice. This is so much the case that, in the minds of the people, law and justice are one and the same thing. There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are 'just' because law makes them so." -Fredric Bastiat
redthrowaway 15y ago
FWIW, Erik's the GM of reddit, not just an admin.
plasma 15y ago
If the bill passes, would people band together and try and invoke the bill on the very people that wanted it in? Like the government website, record labels, etc, on the very frivolous grounds they are trying to ignore right now to get it approved. I wonder how quickly it would be changed then?
- jcromartie 15y ago
  This is a great idea. Anywhere user content is allowed, start spamming copyrighted material. Turn comment sections on whitehouse.gov into the next Pirate Bay.
lkx 15y ago
The point of maximum leverage for SOPA seems to be lobbyists, and those who instruct them, not the congressmen who they buy. Right now they seem to be well hidden, and the decks are stacked in their favor, with protests and letter writing campaigns to Congress seemingly ignored. Maybe the time has come for those who are pushing for this act to be fully exposed, and subject directly to public outrage. A handful of Big Content execs should be a lot easier to influence, than 485 members of Congress.
billpatrianakos 15y ago
Reddit admin engages in scare tactics, fear mongering, and the worst kind of hyperbole. Guys, the Internet isn't going to shut off is SOPA passes so please chill out and try to be rational. All anyone is doing is talking about a workaround to a Gret Firewall that doesn't even exist and pissng their pants over the US becoming fascist. Panic never helps anyone. While everyone is busy hiding under the bed waiting for SOPA to be over I wonder what else isnt being talked about? I'm sure it's far more important than this distraction.
- andygeers 15y ago
  I don't think they're suggesting that the internet will shut off, just that the overhead of them having to respond to takedown demands etc will be more than their 11 employees are able to deal with in a standard working week on top of their existing workload, meaning it will cease to be financially viable.
  - billpatrianakos 15y ago
    I know, I get that. I'm a little frustrated by all the hysteria though. I know my comment sounded snarky and it's because of my frustration. The title of the post was very link-bait-y but the actual admin's comment made sense. There are way too many submissions about SOPA that are repeats and the discussion is literally exactly the same. It's all about DNS workarounds or using OpenDNS then some guy says "no, use DownDNS" and it's just the same. I know SOPA is awful but I think we can take a break from it for a minute and enjoy Christmas. There doesn't seem to be anything new to say about it so let's let it go for a sec, get away from the computer, and stop literally panicking.
    - slurgfest 15y ago
      DNS circumvention won't help. The section of SOPA titled "ENFORCEMENT OF ORDERS" specifically empowers the AG to "bring an action for injunctive relief" against anyone helping to circumvent SOPA's DNS blacklisting. Since other parts of the bill give them immunity, they can do it very freely and everyone has to be really afraid of triggering that kind of action. If more people actually read the text they'd see precisely how bad it is, without any exaggeration being necessary. "Enjoy Christmas" is a terrible argument for why I shouldn't care about legislation that creates vast new liabilities for the entire internet industry - one of the few industries doing at all well since this recession began.

427 points by gasull 15y ago

pire 15y ago

Just come to Spain guys :)

masklinn 15y ago
They could host Reddit in Spain (or anywhere else), but the whole US "market" would still be closed to it (via DNS blocks). And I'm betting the majority of Reddit's population is from the US. And of course other countries will probably decide to follow the US's lead.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  >And I'm betting it's the majority of Reddit's population is from the US. Not an absolute majority, but it is by far their largest market.
- frisco 15y ago
  Is this true even if they're not hosted on a US-controlled TLD such as .com? If they use the .es TLD, then shouldn't anyone with access to a name server that accurately mirrors the zones for that domain have access? I don't see how it's in the US's power to prevent that. Perhaps there'd be a transition period where international name servers stop trusting US mirrors of international TLDs and US root name servers, but if you stop using those it should still work. Right?
  - gasull 15y ago
    > If they use the .es TLD, then shouldn't anyone with access to a name server that accurately mirrors the zones for that domain have access? I don't see how it's in the US's power to prevent that. I think ICANN still has the power to censor .es domains. Can anyone please either confirm or correct me? > Perhaps there'd be a transition period where international name servers stop trusting US mirrors of international TLDs and US root name servers, but if you stop using those it should still work. Right? BlockAid DNS and Telecomix DNS don't remove domains taken down by ICE. But how long until port 53 to BlockAid and Telecomix is blocked in the US? Anyway, most people won't change their nameservers and Reddit would loose most of its revenue if the domain reddit.com was taken down, and to prevent it they would need to monitor/censor the user-generated content, and they can't afford it. Bottom line: SOPA would make Reddit too expensive to run to be profitable.
    - wmf 15y ago
      I think ICANN still has the power to censor .es domains. Technically this is true, but it would cause a revolt that would just end up destroying ICANN.
      - dextorious 15y ago
        """Technically this is true, but it would cause a revolt that would just end up destroying ICANN.""" Yes, because American's are so rebellious that any attempt to suppress their liberties coughpatriotactcough results in a revolt... Actually, 99% of American rebelliousness is in merely quoting the constitution and the 4 amendments in a world and a political and law system that has render most of those obsolete in practice... For example, the "right to bear arms" meant something WHEN people could use those to overturn their government --now, it's just an excuse for people to get guns to "protect their property" against robberies and such.
        wmf 15y ago
        If ICANN starts breaking non-US domains, I have a feeling it's not Americans who would revolt.
  - wmf 15y ago
    Under SOPA, a name server that accurately mirrors the zones for that domain is illegal. http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2011/12/15/stopping-sopas-anti-circumvention.html http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2011/12/15/stopping-s...
    - frisco 15y ago
      Ok, so it could be considered illegal in the US -- but it's not in the US, nor has anything to do with the US. If someone is running an accurate name server outside the US, with no ties to the US, that does no business with the US, the US can say it's "illegal" all they want but it's still there.
      - masklinn 15y ago
        > If someone is running an accurate name server outside the US, with no ties to the US, that does no business with the US, the US can say it's "illegal" all they want but it's still there. Yes.
      - weinzierl 15y ago
        We've been through this in Germany. When the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz passed Blogs and Forums were full with tutorials about how you can change the name server in various operating systems. The Zugangserschwerungsgesetz was never implemented so we don't know how many people would have actually used an alternative resolver.
  - weinzierl 15y ago
    As far as I understand it, they can force every DNS provider under US-jurisdiction (usually the ISP, for instance Comcast, but also OpenDNS and Google) to remove or alter DNS records. This works for .com the same as for .es, but of course it doesn't prevent you from using a name server outside the US. At least that is how the "Zugangserschwerungsgesetz" in Germany works and I think SOPA will be similar in this respect, but I might be wrong..
    - morsch 15y ago
      > At least that is how the "Zugangserschwerungsgesetz" in Germany works Worked. It was never really applied and it's been repealed since.
      - weinzierl 15y ago
        That's true, it was never applied and it was revoked on 1 December 2011. Nevertheless it was valid law for almost two years.
    - jannes 15y ago
      At least that is how the "Zugangserschwerungsgesetz" in Germany works and I think SOPA will be similar in this respect, but I might be wrong.. No, that's how the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz (access hindrance law) was supposed to work. But it didn't pass and the governemt abandoned it after a public debate. Edit: ok, it turns out I'm misinformed. The law passed somehow after it was already dead, so it was never applied. Germany was lucky that somehow it was achieved to make this law subject of public debate. Maybe Americans should copy the strategies that were used by German activists back in 2008 :) But on the other hand, I think that it would be a lot more difficult to achieve this in the American media environment. America's media was asleep when the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq, it will also be asleep this time.
      - weinzierl 15y ago
        It did pass indeed and was signed on February 2010, so it was valid law until it's revocation on 1 December 2011. Additionally all of the larger ISPs implemented the necessary technical infrastructure. It is true that the law was never applied, but still it was valid law.
weinzierl 15y ago
ACTA has just passed the Council of the European Union and Spain will have to make that into national law. The situation in Europe is much worse.

Slimy 15y ago

Veto SOPA: https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/veto-sopa-bill-and-any-other-future-bills-threaten-diminish-free-flow-information/g3W1BscR https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/veto-sopa-b...

Qz 15y ago

I'm getting certificate errors -- is this part of the point or something else?

maqr 15y ago
Not part of the point, try the http version: http://www.reddit.com/r/SOPA/comments/nhfes/do_you_guys_realize_this_might_mean_reddit_might/c395f00 http://www.reddit.com/r/SOPA/comments/nhfes/do_you_guys_real...
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
redthrowaway 15y ago
Chrome told me I was being redirected to Akamai, so I'm guessing it's just a configuration issue. "Proceeding anyway" takes you to the right place.
troels 15y ago
Had me baffled too. Explanation here: http://revealingerrors.com/akamai_ssl http://revealingerrors.com/akamai_ssl Scary stuff - I never heard of this Akamai entity before.
soitgoes 15y ago
Nothing in the SSL certificate returned identifies www.reddit.com hence the warning. The common name of the cert (typically used to identify the website) is actually a248.e.akamai.net. I think akamai are a service that many websites use but their generic SSL cert can cause problems. You can view the cert using: http://certlogik.com/sslchecker/www.reddit.com/ http://certlogik.com/sslchecker/www.reddit.com/
notatoad 15y ago
it's because OP linked to the HTTPS version of reddit, which doesn't exist. akamai will serve an HTTPS version of any page that they cache, and if the customer has not configured HTTPS they will serve it up with their certificate. reddit uses akamai for page content but not for any authentication, there are no security benefits to using https://reddit https://reddit instead of http://reddit http://reddit

joelmichael 15y ago

I'll believe it when I see it. I just don't believe the US government wants to shut down Reddit, Wikipedia, YouTube, and all of the other major sites the alarmists are claiming.

corin_ 15y ago
It's not a conspiracy theory that the government wants to kill these sites. But SOPA would open these sites up to problems that would be enforced by law, and which would cause them much harm, quite possibly to the extent of them shutting down. The politicians either don't understand these problems, or don't care about them - you can be the judge on that.
- joelmichael 15y ago
  I think people are being a bit hysterical. I remember the same thing happening when the DMCA was passed. The government just wants to end flagrant abuses of piracy. I don't think they are going to sic their dogs on Reddit. Sites like YouTube are already in compliance. So, I think it does smack of conspiracy theory, yes.
  - capnrefsmmat 15y ago
    The trouble is that SOPA doesn't require government intent to cause site closures; a copyright holder must merely send a letter to a site's advertising agency or payment processor to cause its funds to be cut off in five days. No court order required. Now, the criteria is that the site is "dedicated to the theft of US property", but advertising agencies and payment processors are held immune to liability for actions they take under the law, so they have no reason to verify that the site is, in fact, dedicated to theft before shutting it down. There does not need to be an active government conspiracy for this to harm websites.
  - dpe82 15y ago
    Yes ending flagrant abuses is the stated goal of the bill, but the methods it uses toward that end leave lots of unintended consequences which will be very, very damaging. Those in support of the bill either haven't taken the time to understand those consequences or simply don't care. The conspiracy theory is that the unintended consequences are in fact intended by the MPAA/RIAA. Given their past and present behavior, it's not a stretch.

vonskippy 15y ago

One shining note to remember before everyone turns doom and gloom, in the States (if I remember what the citizenship pamphlet said when I got my green card), it's not really "law" until it stands up to a test case in a court of law. Since the congress critters are lining their pockets left and right from the lobbyists for this bill, it's not in their personal interest to turn it down, even if they know it won't stand up in court. And if it passes, it's almost guaranteed to be tested (and overturned) in court - as it's been mentioned many many times, Youtube, Google, Bing, etc etc have way too much to lose to let it go unchallenged. Seems like it's just status quo here in the States with the new "pay-n-pass" government.

lallysingh 15y ago
And looking at Lessig's appearance on Daily Show (about his new book), congress uses ridiculous things like this to extort money out of businesses to keep themselves in office.
wmf 15y ago
OTOH, a site could go out of business before SOPA is overturned.
- jerf 15y ago
  The legal system can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
monochromatic 15y ago
> it's not really "law" until it stands up to a test case in a court of law This is not true. It is law until it's overturned.
- tokenadult 15y ago
  Whether or not enforcement of the law is enjoined before that determination depends on legal criteria for injunctive relief. There may or may not be any attempt to enforce a new statute on this subject, even if the statute is passed and the President signs it. I'm sure lawyers are already thinking about how to challenge (and how to defend!) the statute in the court system if it is passed and signed.

blantonl 15y ago

Considering HN is all user generated content, does pg have a perspective on SOPA's potential impact on HN?

sehugg 15y ago

This reminds me of a story about the first atomic bomb test. Not too long before the first detonation was to occur, some scientists voiced a concern that there was a slim chance that the blast would be strong enough to ignite the atmosphere and pretty much destroy the world. These voices were in the minority, and disproved through calculation and common sense -- but the official paper disproving it did not arrive until a year later. So the first atomic bomb was detonated with a few lingering doubts about whether it would instantly destroy the world. This is what the SOPA debate feels like to me, except there are no reasoned arguments disproving its opponents' worst fears, just pat dismissals of the opposition.

ericd 15y ago
I don't think that many are arguing that it's going to be an obvious complete annihilation. The backlash would be far too large if Reddit actually went down. More likely, it's just going to be small sites here and there that are too small to defend themselves, and that not enough people care about seeing go away to make an outcry loud enough for Washington to hear. That's what's really scary about it - that it will have very bad, almost silent effects that few outside of tech notice.
- MaxGabriel 15y ago
  So like, Reddit in 2005?
  - ericd 15y ago
    Yeah, 2005 Reddit would probably be pretty screwed. Areas with a lot of user generated content might calcify if this big barrier to entry comes in, and only the big incumbent players are safe. I imagine the fact that govt. clearly wants this is probably already going to have a chilling effect on riskier areas, even if nothing gets passed.
  - obtu 15y ago
    As well as digg, for not cracking down hard enough at the time 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 was extracted.

mkramlich 15y ago

it's interesting to me that the same folks who wanted Citzens United because it was supposedly pro free speech are also in favor of SOPA which is pretty clearly anti free speech. what they have in common is both favor large corporations at the expense of individuals and the non-rich. more freedom for the former and less for the latter. not a good trend in a country historically and ostensibly founded on individual liberty and non-aristocracy.

scarmig 15y ago
Just to be fair, the people most invested in destroying campaign finance reform (the Cato folks) have been pretty good when it comes to SOPA. Of course, I'd say the people they serve are are quite happy to ignore them when it's convenient for the court aristocracy, but I can't see them as guilty of any obvious inconsistencies.
jacoblyles 15y ago
I like Citizens United and I dislike SOPA. That's just one data point, but strong free speech advocates do exist.
- Bo102010 15y ago
  Likewise. I side with the ACLU on Citizens United - i.e. that the Supreme Court decided it correctly. You can rationally be displeased what you expect the outcome of the case to be (e.g. increased ability for corporate financing of election campaigns), but I don't think there's a coherent defense of the sections of BCRA that the court struck down. ETA: The government argued that BCRA would allow them to ban, for example, a 500 page book that contained a single sentence endorsing a candidate (http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/29/will-elena-kagan-allow-books/print http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/29/will-elena-kagan-allow...). If you think SOPA is heavy-handed, just think what BCRA could have led to.
  - wallawe 15y ago
    What is the ACLU's stance on SOPA?

astrodust 15y ago

If you wanted to implement something like this, regardless of merit, then DNS blocking is by far the worst way to go about doing it. Anyone with an interest in using pirate sites will simply switch to alternate DNS providers, there will always be a way, and legitimate users will be subject to rampant and arbitrary censorship in the name of "stopping piracy". You can't stop piracy. It's a supply and demand problem. It's a perception problem. How can you convince someone that the TV show that is broadcast for free over the air is legal, but downloading exactly the same show at a later time is illegal? Companies have all the tools they need to reduce piracy but they refuse to use them, instead trying to extort money from people through more conventional means. They'd rather have ten sales at $20 than thousands at $1.

pyre 15y ago
Cutting off the advertising revenues will definitely slow down piracy sites. SOPA isn't just about DNS.
- astrodust 15y ago
  It'll put a dent in their revenue, but it'll also open up a massive market for underground advertisers.
samstave 15y ago
>You can't stop piracy. It's a supply and demand problem. It's a perception problem. I would go further; it is a greed/exploitative problem. You have every type of good in the world manufactured/produced/farmed/coded/filmed/etc. for far less than what the retail cost is. (the initial arguement is supply and demand) -- but that is simply false. Look at profits and margins. Apple and every oil company in the world is the perfect example of why this is true. Their supply is NOT in concordance with demand. Their profits and margins show this. Other business models have proven this out; make things cost less - and more people will buy. Actually, to Apples credit - this is an area where they are showing this; Apps that cost ~.99 are seen to be a value to the user at that cost thus paid apps make tons. (However, if you look at margins, again Apple fails. Their margin on paid apps is between 100% and ~5% (if you try to figure in the cost of the overall infrastructure to supply the apps (i*Device development etc. though the mobile market has a lot of outlying factors which refudiate the margin cost to apple, whereas the iPad is a device wholly dependent on the app market)

wavephorm 15y ago

The real problem is it's not just SOPA. This authoritarian trend has been going on since 9/11. The Patriot Act, Homeland Security, the Secure Fence Act, and recently NDAA, and PIPA. Each one is a clever euphemism design to conceal its true dystopian purpose. The American regime is strengthening itself to unprecedented levels... for what? Generally countries do not strip its citizens of so many civil liberties unless there is a clear goal ahead. We will probably find out in the next few years.

srl 15y ago
> Generally countries do not strip its citizens of so many civil liberties unless there is a clear goal ahead. Not sure about that. I think the natural tendency is for any institution to try to grab more power, no matter what the situation is - since 9/11, congress has found doing so unusually easy, and has responded by taking advantage of the opportunity. That's not to say the abuses aren't only a few years away, but I don't think these power-grabs have been done with those abuses as a perceived goal. They're just power-grabs.
- ldar15 15y ago
  Power-grabs are the abuse. There need not be any imoral motive behind the desire for this power, nor any plan to use them "for evil". We have already seen (UMG) that, given such power, there will be "accidental" abuse that has a major, negative effect on small players and citizens. Even if you believe that these were genuine "accidents", do you believe that it is acceptable to allow these interests to have such power? Do you think it is just about "unimportant" things like copying music? The US is still the worlds largest superpower, but compared to 20 years ago it has vastly less power. Its power has declined and continues to do so. Any student of history will tell you that this is exactly when states transform from free nations to fascist states.
  - bluekeybox 15y ago
    > Any student of history will tell you that this is exactly when states transform from free nations to fascist states. No, absolutely not, that's not how it happens. Go back and read your history books. Also, Godwin is not on your side.

gasull 15y ago

If SOPA passes, every user-generated content website is going to have tremendous costs, in many cases prohibitive. I think only Facebook and a few players would have the resources to police their content. This is going to be really bad for Silicon Valley and the startup community.

jerf 15y ago
Actually, thanks to the economics of computer startups, the big players, if they were held to the same standards as everybody else, are worse off. They have fewer people-per-post than smaller sites, not more. It's that whole scaling thing that is the reason why computer startups can be so exciting and lucrative. Of course, the key phrase here is "if they were held to the same standard as everybody else". Though I think the second-order effects of SOPA would be more bizarre on something like Facebook than you'd think at first blush. The mere fact that they could still be legally shut down in a heartbeat still can't help but have a profound effect on their world even if the trigger is never actually pulled for fear of generating an uproar.

paulhauggis 15y ago

People care so much about SOPA, but not as much about the Internet Tax Bill, which means every small e-commerce site will be forced to collect taxes for every jurisdiction in the US. I seriously doubt all of them have the manpower or money to properly collect sales tax.

ams6110 15y ago
Sounds like an opportunity for a web service. Post total sale and customer's state, get back the tax due and a token. If/when the sale is finalized, post the token back and have them track your taxes due to each state. Monthly, invoice the total amount due, and pay each state, keeping a service fee.
- adgar 15y ago
  I got distracted typing my response so I ended up responding 22 minutes after you. Damn.
- dangrossman 15y ago
  To compute sales tax in the US, you need a full address and product type(s). Not even zip code is granular enough to determine the tax rate. It can vary by county, township, inside/outside city limits, and in all these different combinations (literally thousands for the whole country) what items are subject to sales tax varies region by region too. For example, most states don't tax web design service, but there are a few that do. Most states don't tax advertising services, but a few do, and it depends what type of advertising is being bought. Passing on an address and a total to an API will do the trick 99% of the time, but technically, some of the businesses using that API are going to fail to collect sales tax in some cases where they should. I am hopeful that if enough state legislatures get serious about taxing internet sales, they'll band together to do some nationwide standardization. That kind of thing can't come down from the federal government; congress has no authority to tell a local municipality it can't levy its own sales tax, but state governments can. Kind of like how they all agreed (is it all? I think one or two didn't) to the Uniform Commercial Code so that the basic laws of sale contracts are the same in every state.
15y ago

mhartl 15y ago

HN admin: please s/https/http/ in the story link.

zotz 15y ago

"The nature of law is to maintain justice. This is so much the case that, in the minds of the people, law and justice are one and the same thing. There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are 'just' because law makes them so." -Fredric Bastiat

redthrowaway 15y ago

FWIW, Erik's the GM of reddit, not just an admin.

plasma 15y ago

If the bill passes, would people band together and try and invoke the bill on the very people that wanted it in? Like the government website, record labels, etc, on the very frivolous grounds they are trying to ignore right now to get it approved. I wonder how quickly it would be changed then?

jcromartie 15y ago
This is a great idea. Anywhere user content is allowed, start spamming copyrighted material. Turn comment sections on whitehouse.gov into the next Pirate Bay.

lkx 15y ago

The point of maximum leverage for SOPA seems to be lobbyists, and those who instruct them, not the congressmen who they buy. Right now they seem to be well hidden, and the decks are stacked in their favor, with protests and letter writing campaigns to Congress seemingly ignored. Maybe the time has come for those who are pushing for this act to be fully exposed, and subject directly to public outrage. A handful of Big Content execs should be a lot easier to influence, than 485 members of Congress.

billpatrianakos 15y ago

Reddit admin engages in scare tactics, fear mongering, and the worst kind of hyperbole. Guys, the Internet isn't going to shut off is SOPA passes so please chill out and try to be rational. All anyone is doing is talking about a workaround to a Gret Firewall that doesn't even exist and pissng their pants over the US becoming fascist. Panic never helps anyone. While everyone is busy hiding under the bed waiting for SOPA to be over I wonder what else isnt being talked about? I'm sure it's far more important than this distraction.

andygeers 15y ago
I don't think they're suggesting that the internet will shut off, just that the overhead of them having to respond to takedown demands etc will be more than their 11 employees are able to deal with in a standard working week on top of their existing workload, meaning it will cease to be financially viable.
- billpatrianakos 15y ago
  I know, I get that. I'm a little frustrated by all the hysteria though. I know my comment sounded snarky and it's because of my frustration. The title of the post was very link-bait-y but the actual admin's comment made sense. There are way too many submissions about SOPA that are repeats and the discussion is literally exactly the same. It's all about DNS workarounds or using OpenDNS then some guy says "no, use DownDNS" and it's just the same. I know SOPA is awful but I think we can take a break from it for a minute and enjoy Christmas. There doesn't seem to be anything new to say about it so let's let it go for a sec, get away from the computer, and stop literally panicking.
  - slurgfest 15y ago
    DNS circumvention won't help. The section of SOPA titled "ENFORCEMENT OF ORDERS" specifically empowers the AG to "bring an action for injunctive relief" against anyone helping to circumvent SOPA's DNS blacklisting. Since other parts of the bill give them immunity, they can do it very freely and everyone has to be really afraid of triggering that kind of action. If more people actually read the text they'd see precisely how bad it is, without any exaggeration being necessary. "Enjoy Christmas" is a terrible argument for why I shouldn't care about legislation that creates vast new liabilities for the entire internet industry - one of the few industries doing at all well since this recession began.