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Show HN: Easylang – A browser-based first programming language

• deleted 4y ago
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• sbergot 4y ago
  Couple observations: - you should have a code snippet on your landing page - in your python comparison it is unclear why easylang decides that a is a number.
  • chkas 4y ago
    It is similar to the way it used to be in BASIC. a is a number, a$ is a string, a[] is an array.
    • johnisgood 4y ago
      That does not make it easier though... you explained just now, and I understood, but where am I to pull it out of (because it is not intuitive at all) if not documentation? Just like with any other languages... Similarly, they will run into languages where arrays begin with 0. Beginners should be taught how to think about it and such, not shove it under the rug. Who is your target audience?
      • Jtsummers 4y ago
        > where am I to pull it out of (because it is not intuitive at all) if not documentation? It is in the documentation. Quoting from the documentation: > String variables end with the $ character. The principal problem though is that you're dropped into the first of 4 tutorial/documentation pages, and have to hit "back" (which is unintuitive since I didn't get there from anywhere else on the site) to see the list of tutorials and documentation pages.
        • chkas 4y ago
          Yes. I should have posted this link. https://easylang.online/ide/ https://easylang.online/ide/
        • johnisgood 4y ago
          I did not mean to say that it is not in the documentation... What I am saying is that it is not intuitive at all, and it has to be documented for anyone, not just for "beginners to programming" to know. The reason I am saying this is that "counter-intuitive" and "not intuitive" is often mentioned as a reason for the language being more beginner-friendly.
          • Jtsummers 4y ago
            To be fair, most of programming is not intuitive. i = 20 # ... some lines later (not modifying i) for i in range(10): # non-intuitive for many - range goes from 0 to 9 print(i) # ... some lines later (not modifying i) print(i) # what value should be printed here? Or a subtle (and hard to spot when not isolated like this) one character difference creating a behavior change: i := 20 for i := 0; i < 10; i++ { fmt.Println(i) } fmt.Println(i) i := 20 for i = 0; i < 10; i++ { fmt.Println(i) } fmt.Println(i) And that's with a primitive part of programming. There is no language whose behavior can be fully intuited by all people, beginner or not. Some things will have to be taught or read through documentation and examples.
      • chkas 4y ago
        > Who is your target audience? Beginners There are tutorials integrated in the IDE, among others one for beginners. The examples are the documentation.
      • johnisgood 4y ago
        > Similarly, they will run into languages where arrays begin with 0. Beginners should be taught how to think about it and such, not shove it under the rug. Just to add to that: I am reading the book "Programming Algorithms in Lisp: Writing Efficient Programs with Examples in ANSI Common Lisp" written by "Vsevolod Domkin" and it explains it well enough for a beginner, I would say, at page 49; "Why Are Arrays Indexed from 0".
    • u801e 4y ago
      Also similar to perl since $ and [] are essentially sigils.
• azhenley 4y ago
  It looks like a BASIC. Are there any benefits over other educational/games-oriented BASICs? How does it compare to educational languages, like Hedy? https://www.hedycode.com https://www.hedycode.com
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• pacifika 4y ago
  This is great and thank you for making programming more approachable! I think some of the numbers would benefit from units. For example colours, size, coordinates etc can all be represented by the number 444. Therefore `circle 444` could mean a large circle a grey circle, a centred circle. I had to read the example before I understood the code there is all. Perhaps a prefix x444, y444, c444, w444 would help?
  • shhsshs 4y ago
    I agree, though you can make this argument for any other programming language. circle 444 or circle(444) Named parameters are sometimes nice. circle r=444 or circle(r=444)
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• vetelko 4y ago
  No parens, brackets, etc... Thank you :)
  • chrischattin 4y ago
    You’d like Ruby :)
    • vetelko 4y ago
      Nope, love LISP:)
      • layer8 4y ago
        No parens???
• ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  This reminded me a little of Hedy language: https://www.hedycode.com/ https://www.hedycode.com/ It starts off super simple, like: print something and then introduces all the fiddly concepts like quoting, escaping etc. 1 by 1 until it turns into python. The designer had a neat talk about it at the strange loop conference. One of the themes they talk about is the difference between "easy to learn" and "easy to teach" which I found insightful. https://www.thestrangeloop.com/2022/hedy-a-gradual-programming-language.html https://www.thestrangeloop.com/2022/hedy-a-gradual-programmi... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmF7HpU_-9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmF7HpU_-9k
  • chkas 4y ago
    This does not turn into Python.
    • 0x6c6f6c 4y ago
      They were talking about Hedylang
      • chkas 4y ago
        I was referring to "This reminded me a little of Hedy language".
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• indymike 4y ago
  This feels a lot like a BASIC and logo had a child and that is not a bad thing. Love the easy graphics, simple syntax, and removing all the punctuation. Love the a = number input typecast. End will be a source of bugs. Use endfor endelse endif endwhile. This helps new programmers track nested loops and logic. Yes, end is simple, but end applies to many things, and will end in a pattern where people will start doing this to sort it out: end # while Also, inline comments should be ok. Then you get end # while instead of the above two liner. Honestly, this is a nice little language.
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  • mech422 4y ago
    I got the same feeling... Reminded me of COMAL(1) with the turtle graphics 'hook' to get kids immediately interested. I actually have some fond memories of teaching Comal to grade school (8-10 year old) kids :-) 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMAL
• bmitc 4y ago
  You might be interested in Pyret, if only because the stated goals are similar. https://www.pyret.org/ https://www.pyret.org/
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• velcrovan 4y ago
  Pyret (https://www.pyret.org https://www.pyret.org) is already filling this role very nicely (browser-based Python-like for use in teaching), and has the advantage of having been designed by people whose careers are devoted to the study of programming pedagogy. It’s the language used in the front half of Data-centric Introduction to Computing, which is available online for free (https://dcic-world.org/2022-08-28/index.html https://dcic-world.org/2022-08-28/index.html). The second half of the book transitions to Python, at which point the reader/student is well-prepared to understand aspects of Python that can be tricky for first-time programmers.
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• pmarreck 4y ago
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  • pvg 4y ago
    Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    • pmarreck 4y ago
      I shallowly dismissed Python, not their work. So this does not apply.
      • pvg 4y ago
        Your original comment was just Python is terrible, so it's not hard to be "easier" than it. Which is a shallow dismissal of both things. Plus all shallow dismissals are HN-lame so it very much applies. They are just extra lame when about someone else's work and triple lame when it's in a Show HN.
• 29athrowaway 4y ago
  You need to provide one brief tutorial at a time, otherwise it is overwhelming for learners.
• thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  Reminds me of Logo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(programming_language) Python has a Logo-ish mode called turtle graphics: https://docs.python.org/3/library/turtle.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/turtle.html
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• geenat 4y ago
  Similar but used in production by a lot of htmx people: https://hyperscript.org/ https://hyperscript.org/
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• dang 4y ago
  Related: Show HN: Particles – the URL contains the whole program code - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31883209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31883209 - June 2022 (21 comments) Show HN: Learn Basics of Programming in 40 Minutes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30136967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30136967 - Jan 2022 (3 comments) Easylang – An easy online programming language and development environment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218101 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218101 - Nov 2021 (36 comments) Monte Carlo Methods or Why It's a Bad Idea to Go to the Casino - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29217539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29217539 - Nov 2021 (70 comments) Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser via WebAssembly - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28863847 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28863847 - Oct 2021 (9 comments) Blackjack Probabilities, Card Counting – Calculation and Simulation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28025561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28025561 - Aug 2021 (23 comments) Show HN: Learn the Basics of Programming in 20 Minutes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27245000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27245000 - May 2021 (5 comments) Show HN: A programming language and framework for writing small canvas web apps - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26779898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26779898 - April 2021 (2 comments) Show HN: A modern BASIC-like teaching and learning programming language - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22841336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22841336 - April 2020 (48 comments) Show HN: The program code is in the URL - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22266563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22266563 - Feb 2020 (5 comments) Show HN: A Basic-Like Programming Language That Runs in the Browser - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21178687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21178687 - Oct 2019 (6 comments) Show HN: A small programming course for everyone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20982002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20982002 - Sept 2019 (12 comments) Show HN: A few simple games not only for kids - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745142 - Aug 2019 (28 comments) Monte Carlo methods – Why it's a bad idea to go to the casino - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20359100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20359100 - July 2019 (161 comments)
  • James-Livesey 4y ago
    Not to mention Show HN: Atto – BASIC computer that runs in the browser - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27724236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27724236 - July 2021 (71 comments) (shameless plug ;D)
• pipeline_peak 4y ago
  Static typing can’t be easy for beginners when they’re expected to cast a string to a number without variables having data type keywords. Type inference is often an example of abstraction confusing users with what’s really going on… If facility is your concern, you should go for dynamic typing where assigning a string with a number gets converted automatically. No kid should have to deal with that. Give them the full amount of abstraction, it’s the runtimes responsibility. Otherwise, you brought up some good points, Python and JS really aren’t as kid friendly as we think.
  • empressplay 4y ago
    As much as I love BASIC from a nostalgia standpoint, Logo is still better -- Scratch is basically blocks-based Logo, and so Logo makes more sense as a first text-based language. There's plenty of Logos out there at varying degrees of complexity as well: Lynx, Terrapin, turtleSpaces etc. And they don't have static typing!
• anfelor 4y ago
  The best attempt at creating a learnable programming language I've seen is this design document by Bret Victor: http://worrydream.com/#!/LearnableProgramming http://worrydream.com/#!/LearnableProgramming It is now ten years old but I don't know if it has even been put into practice? To be fair, it would be a lot of work to include all the IDE features and Easylang comes reasonably close to it already. However, if I could recommend one paragraph it is the one on "Recomposition", which is an extremely clear explanation of why functional programming matters for learnable programming.
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  • empressplay 4y ago
    Every so often I re-read Bret's post to see what I can add to our learning environment. We use CodeMirror as our editor so we have pop-over help, color syntax highlighting and an optional autocomplete (optional because feedback from teachers was that it was too distracting). We have a 'fluid' turtle that allows for the learner to follow execution to a point, although we do need to add in the ability to see which line of code is being executed at any given time, and the ability to control the execution speed better, maybe with a slider. We're currently implementing (based on teacher feedback) a series of graduated environments where each 'level' unlocks more IDE features and primitives. For example, this is 'artSpace', a 2D environment (we also have a 3D environment): https://turtlespaces.org/weblogo/?profile=artspace https://turtlespaces.org/weblogo/?profile=artspace (warning, 40mb load)
• jbirer 4y ago
  You should focus on developing this further, I see lots of potential.
• musicale 4y ago
  I'd like to see something like this for JavaScript, and I'd like it to be built into web browsers. Learning JavaScript provides a lot of leverage since it is built into basically every web browser and can be used for everything from web apps to server-side apps to pseudo-desktop apps.
  • ilaksh 4y ago
    I assume there are some pretty good programming tutorials that use the developer console. It's a pretty good environment for learning I think. Maybe not done yet. I think a really interesting angle is being able to access and modify things on a web page that a kid may be familiar with. The Chrome dev tools has editing built in to the console. Takes a little getting used to using Ctrl-enter but works well otherwise.
• kasajian 4y ago
  Made a bouncing circle: https://easylang.online/ide/#run=color%20999%0Amove%200%200%0Arect%20100%20100%0Ax%20%3D%2030%0Ay%20%3D%2070%0Apx%20%3D%20x%0Apy%20%3D%20y%0Ah%20%3D%203%0Av%20%3D%203%0Ai%20%3D%201%0Awhile%20i%20%3C%20100%0A%20%20color%20999%0A%20%20move%20px%20py%0A%20%20circle%203%0A%20%20color%20900%0A%20%20x%20%3D%20x%20%2B%20h%0A%20%20y%20%3D%20y%20%2B%20v%0A%20%20move%20x%20y%0A%20%20circle%202%0A%20%20m%20%3D%201%20%2F%2020%0A%20%20sleep%20m%0A%20%20px%20%3D%20x%0A%20%20py%20%3D%20y%0A%20%20i%20%3D%20i%20%2B%201%0A%20%20if%20x%20%3E%2090%20or%20x%20%3C%2010%0A%20%20%20%20h%20%3D%20h%20*%20-1%0A%20%20end%0A%20%20if%20y%20%3E%2090%20or%20y%20%3C%2010%0A%20%20%20%20v%20%3D%20v%20*%20-1%0A%20%20end%0Aend%0A https://easylang.online/ide/#run=color%20999%0Amove%200%200%...
• RomanPushkin 4y ago
  You're my man! The only complaint is array index starts with 1. Can we break backwards compatibility please and make it 0?
  • chkas 4y ago
    This is a controversial topic. Here is why I consider for a beginner programming language 1-based indexing to be better. https://easylang.online/blog/easyl_pyth.html https://easylang.online/blog/easyl_pyth.html
    • tpoacher 4y ago
      or you could allow both and in general an arbitrary starting index, like fortran
• robto 4y ago
  This may be a lost cause, but I don't think a beginner language should have mutable data at all. The only reason we really need mutability is for speed - our programs have to run on actual machines and for a long time we didn't have efficient ways of working with immutable data structures. It's a lot easier to reason about immutable data. And any non-programmer is not going to expect mutable data - from the beginning when they started learning math all the way up to MS Excel wizards, all the data has been immutable. Mutation is a deep magic that learners shouldn't start with. It's pure premature optimization. Also everything should be expressions, no statements, why force people to learn extra syntax? Thank you for listening to my TED Talk. ...but thank you for making this tool! I love the IDE - simple, clear, and self-documenting!
  • velcrovan 4y ago
    When I started programming at age ten, mutable data was t so simple and obvious it never occurred to me that it could be any other way, let alone what the advantages would be.
    • eternalban 4y ago
      Mutating is not an issue for single threaded code that beginners write, and it is completely intuitive (unlike FP) so not sure what GP is thinking about.
      • otabdeveloper4 4y ago
        Mutable variables are not intuitive for beginners. Out there in the "real world", non-programmers will happily write extremely complex Excel spreadsheets, SQL queries and even Pandas/Jupyter notebooks, but will become completely stumped even by simple for loops. People will handle even very complex code as long as it's "just math formulas", but add mutation and temporal reasoning into the mix and it immediately causes cognitive overload.
        • eternalban 4y ago
          Sorry, "temporal reasoning" is not on the table. And if someone is having problem dealing with loops then recursion must be completely beyond them and rocket science. The examples you give are symptomatic of usage patterns, and the tools you name lend themselves to copy-paste constructs for beginners. That is all. p.s. > non-programmers will happily write extremely complex Excel spreadsheets, SQL queries and even Pandas/Jupyter notebook but for the life of them would not be able to troubleshoot if the copy-paste operation had a hiccup.
• owenpalmer 4y ago
  Beautiful, I'm going to use this in my next programming class!
  • chkas 4y ago
    Pleased to hear that. If you have any questions or feedback, please don't hesitate.