5 ms·

My father in law is one of those. He has more money than he can spend until he dies even if he raised his standard of living 10 times. Yet he refuses to spend i

My father in law is one of those. He has more money than he can spend until he dies even if he raised his standard of living 10 times. Yet he refuses to spend it, and would rather be cold during winter than turning up the heater. I don't get it. But again, I also don't get living a life of pure pleasure, and not thinking at all about tomorrow. I'd rather think about tomorrow, and spend today getting satisfaction from the work I do, so tomorrow I can say I did my best. But also putting in a few guilty pleasures from time to time. Not too much, because if they're scarce, there's more pleasure.

agent008t 4y ago
Your father in law sounds like a virtuous man. If he has earned his money, he must have provided goods and services for others. If he does not spend the money, that means he asked for nothing in return. Is that not virtuous?
- standardUser 4y ago
  What precisely is the virtue you see here? My personal moral code considers hoarding wealthy to be unvirtuous.
  - agent008t 4y ago
    He is not hoarding wealth, he is hoarding money. And money is essentially IOUs, claims on the labour of other people and on other resources. So as I said, if he earned the money, that means he provided for others, and in exchange he got these pieces of paper, which say that later, if he wants to, he can get others to provide for him in return. Not spending the money means that he never claims anything for himself in return for what he did for others. How is that not virtuous?
    - mrleinad 4y ago
      He's not spending it, but he invested it. So the money is still growing. Virtuous would be to just give the money away to those he loved or needed that money (I'm not saying he should do that, I'm just following your logic). As things go, he will have lived his last years like a poor man, and his family will inherit his money. He will have suffered for nothing, because he doesn't have enough money to make the rest of his family rich, just enough that he wouldn't need to suffer not having anything now.
      - agent008t 4y ago
        Even better that he invested it. I see it this way - he is perfectly entitled to use the claims on others' labour and resources for his own pleasure. Instead, by investing, he uses the claims to get others to work on projects that create more real wealth for others to enjoy! That seems like virtuous behaviour to me. Very unselfish. Sure, giving the money away may or may not be more virtuous (depends on who gets it and what they do with it). But surely you would agree with me that spending it on one's own pleasures is less virtuous than either of not spending it, investing it productively or giving it to loved ones?
        Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
        Spending with urgency when you are in the twilight of your life makes it so that the claim on other people labor is very weak, because the person spending has essentially no time to waste to haggle or complain about poor service
      - _yb2s 4y ago
        It sounds like he realizes there is much more to life than physical comfort, and he has the strength and perspective to live accordingly. Excessive physical comfort is often addictive, ultimately unsatisfying, and leads to sadness and weakness. Per the ancient stoics, avoiding it (the virtue of temperance) helps build the strength that makes it possible to escape suffering, and actually enjoy life more. Two of the most famous stoics Seneca and Marcus Aurelius were among the wealthiest and most powerful men in Ancient Rome yet intentionally lived like you describe because they saw it as virtuous, but also helping make them personally happy people. I am personally prone to chronic depression and have found that living simply and embracing discomfort helps me to be less depressed. I can afford to live in extreme comfort but I wouldn’t be happy like that, I would feel lethargic and weak… like a pampered pet and not a person with strength and purpose. What you have described is living your life where you satisfaction comes only from purchasing comfort. Doesn’t that feel a bit empty and pointless? What is important to you in life? Couldn’t you do better at things that were really important, and thus be happier and more satisfied if you had cultivated the strength to not need those comforts?
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  You can generate a lot of wealth through viciousness and exploitation too. Do you think rich people are necessarily virtuous? Because extremely uhhhhhhhhh
  - agent008t 4y ago
    You can but, say, on HN, I believe most people have generated their wealth by providing a services for others. I do not think rich people are necessarily virtuous. I do think that there is virtue in a wealthy person that does not spend their wealth on personal consumption.
    - fknorangesite 4y ago
      > on HN, I believe most people have generated their wealth by providing a services for others. Nothing exemplifies the prevailing culture of Hacker News moreso than self-satisfied comments on the virtue of the culture of Hacker News.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  I do not think it’s virtuous to pointlessly hurt yourself, nor to allow other people to do so. Though I guess he doesn’t see it like that. If he just likes the experience of seeing his bank account number go up in the cold, then he should probably continue doing so.
Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
> He has more money than he can spend until he dies even if he raised his standard of living 10 times For him the high standards of living is to look at the bank account and seeing his millions and thus feeling like a somebody in a hood of nonodies. That’s the reasoning that propmts hoarders to hoard. Me approaching the problem from a completely different angle I realized that if you live in Usa or Western Europe you are basically at the frontier of progress so if you are after a consequential jump in standard of living it will only come from society wide discoveries and inventions, not personal spending no matter how many millions you have. You’d be pushing on a string. Maybe your father in law refuses to push on a string out of principle?
divbzero 4y ago
This is not all that surprising if you flip it around: Your father-in-law has a habit of frugality which led to accumulating far more than he can ever spend.
georgeecollins 4y ago
The key thing, is he happy? I don't think how much he saved or spends matters that much. The thing is to have the things that give you satisfaction or comfort.

agent008t 4y ago

Your father in law sounds like a virtuous man. If he has earned his money, he must have provided goods and services for others. If he does not spend the money, that means he asked for nothing in return. Is that not virtuous?

standardUser 4y ago
What precisely is the virtue you see here? My personal moral code considers hoarding wealthy to be unvirtuous.
- agent008t 4y ago
  He is not hoarding wealth, he is hoarding money. And money is essentially IOUs, claims on the labour of other people and on other resources. So as I said, if he earned the money, that means he provided for others, and in exchange he got these pieces of paper, which say that later, if he wants to, he can get others to provide for him in return. Not spending the money means that he never claims anything for himself in return for what he did for others. How is that not virtuous?
  - mrleinad 4y ago
    He's not spending it, but he invested it. So the money is still growing. Virtuous would be to just give the money away to those he loved or needed that money (I'm not saying he should do that, I'm just following your logic). As things go, he will have lived his last years like a poor man, and his family will inherit his money. He will have suffered for nothing, because he doesn't have enough money to make the rest of his family rich, just enough that he wouldn't need to suffer not having anything now.
    - agent008t 4y ago
      Even better that he invested it. I see it this way - he is perfectly entitled to use the claims on others' labour and resources for his own pleasure. Instead, by investing, he uses the claims to get others to work on projects that create more real wealth for others to enjoy! That seems like virtuous behaviour to me. Very unselfish. Sure, giving the money away may or may not be more virtuous (depends on who gets it and what they do with it). But surely you would agree with me that spending it on one's own pleasures is less virtuous than either of not spending it, investing it productively or giving it to loved ones?
      - Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
        Spending with urgency when you are in the twilight of your life makes it so that the claim on other people labor is very weak, because the person spending has essentially no time to waste to haggle or complain about poor service
    - _yb2s 4y ago
      It sounds like he realizes there is much more to life than physical comfort, and he has the strength and perspective to live accordingly. Excessive physical comfort is often addictive, ultimately unsatisfying, and leads to sadness and weakness. Per the ancient stoics, avoiding it (the virtue of temperance) helps build the strength that makes it possible to escape suffering, and actually enjoy life more. Two of the most famous stoics Seneca and Marcus Aurelius were among the wealthiest and most powerful men in Ancient Rome yet intentionally lived like you describe because they saw it as virtuous, but also helping make them personally happy people. I am personally prone to chronic depression and have found that living simply and embracing discomfort helps me to be less depressed. I can afford to live in extreme comfort but I wouldn’t be happy like that, I would feel lethargic and weak… like a pampered pet and not a person with strength and purpose. What you have described is living your life where you satisfaction comes only from purchasing comfort. Doesn’t that feel a bit empty and pointless? What is important to you in life? Couldn’t you do better at things that were really important, and thus be happier and more satisfied if you had cultivated the strength to not need those comforts?
giraffe_lady 4y ago
You can generate a lot of wealth through viciousness and exploitation too. Do you think rich people are necessarily virtuous? Because extremely uhhhhhhhhh
- agent008t 4y ago
  You can but, say, on HN, I believe most people have generated their wealth by providing a services for others. I do not think rich people are necessarily virtuous. I do think that there is virtue in a wealthy person that does not spend their wealth on personal consumption.
  - fknorangesite 4y ago
    > on HN, I believe most people have generated their wealth by providing a services for others. Nothing exemplifies the prevailing culture of Hacker News moreso than self-satisfied comments on the virtue of the culture of Hacker News.
Aeolun 4y ago
I do not think it’s virtuous to pointlessly hurt yourself, nor to allow other people to do so. Though I guess he doesn’t see it like that. If he just likes the experience of seeing his bank account number go up in the cold, then he should probably continue doing so.

Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago

> He has more money than he can spend until he dies even if he raised his standard of living 10 times For him the high standards of living is to look at the bank account and seeing his millions and thus feeling like a somebody in a hood of nonodies. That’s the reasoning that propmts hoarders to hoard. Me approaching the problem from a completely different angle I realized that if you live in Usa or Western Europe you are basically at the frontier of progress so if you are after a consequential jump in standard of living it will only come from society wide discoveries and inventions, not personal spending no matter how many millions you have. You’d be pushing on a string. Maybe your father in law refuses to push on a string out of principle?

divbzero 4y ago

This is not all that surprising if you flip it around: Your father-in-law has a habit of frugality which led to accumulating far more than he can ever spend.

georgeecollins 4y ago

The key thing, is he happy? I don't think how much he saved or spends matters that much. The thing is to have the things that give you satisfaction or comfort.