4 ms·

Sounds like in this case it needs to be a craft union or industrial union: a union made up of laborers of a craft or industry (in this case, mobile app develope

Sounds like in this case it needs to be a craft union or industrial union: a union made up of laborers of a craft or industry (in this case, mobile app developers). Get enough developers of high-profile apps on board, and now you have negotiating power. If they balk, make a union-controlled app store, threaten to sell apps only on the union store.

sgjohnson 4y ago
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  This is more like a guild than a union. There is no discussion of leveling pay or anything similar. The doctors, lawyers, actors, musicians, and other professions have guilds like this. What makes them work is that there is a limited supply of available experts in the field, and a desire to raise their bargaining power.
- aussieshibe 4y ago
  I can't tell if you're joking. If you're seriously asking, how about that unions have consistently and successfully fought for better treatment and pay for workers all around the world. Many of the standards we expect today only exist because of union action over the last century or so. Developers are no different from any other worker in the sense that they have more power as a group than individually. That generally has translated to better conditions, better pay. As the gp comment suggests, it seems entirely plausible that this same effect would apply when applied to vendors. A union/guild/group of people is more able to exert influence over vendors than any one individual, and vendors have a bigger incentive to keep them happy and address any issues promptly. Individuals are, as the op demonstrates, completely at the mercy of megacorps.
  - willnonya 4y ago
    So, your rationale for joining a union is misinformation and propaganda might somehow work this time? Organizing wouldn't be a bad idea, a labor union would be.
    - aussieshibe 4y ago
      What, in your view, is the difference between organised workers and a trade union? Trade unions are groups of workers organised around the common cause of improving worker pay and rights. You said the organised workers part isn't a bad idea, so I have to assume you're objecting to the only other defining feature of trade unions: collectively striving for better pay and conditions?
- winkeltripel 4y ago
  Did you read the article? That is why
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  What a remarkable question.
- danuker 4y ago
  When Google loses an app developer, maybe they lose .1% of revenue. When an app developer loses Google, they might lose 100% of their revenue (if they only develop for Android). This fundamental mismatch in bargaining power is why unions are needed for fair resource allocation.
  - willnonya 4y ago
    This fundamentally mis-represents the players involved. Organizing might be a valid response but a labor union completely misses the root of the issue and would not serve a constructive purpose in this situation. A trade organization would seem a more appropriate fit than a union.
    - cwkoss 4y ago
      I'm not talking about a labor union, im talking about a customer union
    - danuker 4y ago
      You are right. I thought the word "union" is more general than it is. But you also probably mean "trade association" instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_association
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Outside of the US, where people seem to have licked some lead paint or huffed glue when learning about unions, developers often do unionise or join an appropriate trade union. Why? Its a form of insurance. Your Union will provide legal cover in the event of a dispute with your employer (eg: wrongful termination), legal advice, representation if you are dealing with say, HR department, and are super useful when engaging in collective bargaining to get a better deal when your company starts down the road of stupid policies (eg, limiting WFH). Think of union dues as a small fee you pay to retain a legal team for employment problems.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    > Think of union dues as a small fee you pay to retain a legal team for employment problems. I can see the benefit of this if you have absolutely no negotiation skill or even the option to negotiate (i.e. you’re an easily replaceable entry-level worker and your conditions of employment are “take it or leave it”, and you can’t really “leave it”), but in my case, I’m ready to walk at basically any time. And if I’m ready to just walk away at virtually any time (as a highly skilled professional with more than a decade of experience), I hold all the cards I need for negotiation. Wouldn’t I be more trouble for the union than I’d be worth?
    - cwkoss 4y ago
      If you only care about the dignity of your own job in the short term, maybe. If you care about the dignity of your coworkers and future workers in your industry generally, you would probably benefit from supporting a union.
philsnow 4y ago
One problem with this approach is that the customers of the app stores generally aren't individual developers, they're the companies that make the apps. It would be stronger to say Uber, King Games (candy crush), Roblox, and PUBG Mobile are dissatisfied with the way policies are unevenly enforced on the App Store / Play Store. Here are our demands, kindly address them or we will collectively deprive Apple / Google of the app revenue and band together to make our own. than Developers Alice, Bob, Carol, Dan, [...], and Zelie, who work at Uber, King Games, [etc] are dissatisfied with [...] ... Although, I can't say I would like to live in a world where the biggest revenue producers for the app stores get to dictate terms to the app store providers.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  That's not a problem at all. Pretty sure the GP meant publishers, e.g. Uber, King Games, Roblox (...).

sgjohnson 4y ago

pclmulqdq 4y ago
This is more like a guild than a union. There is no discussion of leveling pay or anything similar. The doctors, lawyers, actors, musicians, and other professions have guilds like this. What makes them work is that there is a limited supply of available experts in the field, and a desire to raise their bargaining power.
aussieshibe 4y ago
I can't tell if you're joking. If you're seriously asking, how about that unions have consistently and successfully fought for better treatment and pay for workers all around the world. Many of the standards we expect today only exist because of union action over the last century or so. Developers are no different from any other worker in the sense that they have more power as a group than individually. That generally has translated to better conditions, better pay. As the gp comment suggests, it seems entirely plausible that this same effect would apply when applied to vendors. A union/guild/group of people is more able to exert influence over vendors than any one individual, and vendors have a bigger incentive to keep them happy and address any issues promptly. Individuals are, as the op demonstrates, completely at the mercy of megacorps.
- willnonya 4y ago
  So, your rationale for joining a union is misinformation and propaganda might somehow work this time? Organizing wouldn't be a bad idea, a labor union would be.
  - aussieshibe 4y ago
    What, in your view, is the difference between organised workers and a trade union? Trade unions are groups of workers organised around the common cause of improving worker pay and rights. You said the organised workers part isn't a bad idea, so I have to assume you're objecting to the only other defining feature of trade unions: collectively striving for better pay and conditions?
winkeltripel 4y ago
Did you read the article? That is why
Brian_K_White 4y ago
What a remarkable question.
danuker 4y ago
When Google loses an app developer, maybe they lose .1% of revenue. When an app developer loses Google, they might lose 100% of their revenue (if they only develop for Android). This fundamental mismatch in bargaining power is why unions are needed for fair resource allocation.
- willnonya 4y ago
  This fundamentally mis-represents the players involved. Organizing might be a valid response but a labor union completely misses the root of the issue and would not serve a constructive purpose in this situation. A trade organization would seem a more appropriate fit than a union.
  - cwkoss 4y ago
    I'm not talking about a labor union, im talking about a customer union
  - danuker 4y ago
    You are right. I thought the word "union" is more general than it is. But you also probably mean "trade association" instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_association
nibbleshifter 4y ago
Outside of the US, where people seem to have licked some lead paint or huffed glue when learning about unions, developers often do unionise or join an appropriate trade union. Why? Its a form of insurance. Your Union will provide legal cover in the event of a dispute with your employer (eg: wrongful termination), legal advice, representation if you are dealing with say, HR department, and are super useful when engaging in collective bargaining to get a better deal when your company starts down the road of stupid policies (eg, limiting WFH). Think of union dues as a small fee you pay to retain a legal team for employment problems.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > Think of union dues as a small fee you pay to retain a legal team for employment problems. I can see the benefit of this if you have absolutely no negotiation skill or even the option to negotiate (i.e. you’re an easily replaceable entry-level worker and your conditions of employment are “take it or leave it”, and you can’t really “leave it”), but in my case, I’m ready to walk at basically any time. And if I’m ready to just walk away at virtually any time (as a highly skilled professional with more than a decade of experience), I hold all the cards I need for negotiation. Wouldn’t I be more trouble for the union than I’d be worth?
  - cwkoss 4y ago
    If you only care about the dignity of your own job in the short term, maybe. If you care about the dignity of your coworkers and future workers in your industry generally, you would probably benefit from supporting a union.

philsnow 4y ago

One problem with this approach is that the customers of the app stores generally aren't individual developers, they're the companies that make the apps. It would be stronger to say Uber, King Games (candy crush), Roblox, and PUBG Mobile are dissatisfied with the way policies are unevenly enforced on the App Store / Play Store. Here are our demands, kindly address them or we will collectively deprive Apple / Google of the app revenue and band together to make our own. than Developers Alice, Bob, Carol, Dan, [...], and Zelie, who work at Uber, King Games, [etc] are dissatisfied with [...] ... Although, I can't say I would like to live in a world where the biggest revenue producers for the app stores get to dictate terms to the app store providers.

solarkraft 4y ago
That's not a problem at all. Pretty sure the GP meant publishers, e.g. Uber, King Games, Roblox (...).