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This opinion is also biased. We have no theoretical method for determining which design philosophy is better than the other. We can't know whether the OOP reli
by deltasevennine 4y ago
This opinion is also biased. We have no theoretical method for determining which design philosophy is better than the other.
We can't know whether the OOP religion is better, we also can't know if the Haskell religion is better, and we can't know whether NEITHER is better. (this is key, even the neutral point of view where both are "good" can't be proven).
We do have theories to determine algorithmic efficiency. Computational complexity allows us to quantify which algorithm is faster and better. But whether that algorithm was better implemented using FP concepts or OOP concepts, we don't know... we can't know.
A lot of people like you just pick a random religion. It may seem more reasonable and measured to pick the neutral ground. But this in itself is A Religion.
It's the "it's all apples and oranges approach" or the "FP and OOP are just different tools in a toolbox" approach.... but without any mathematical theory to quantify "better" there's no way we can really ever know. Rotten apples and rotten oranges ALSO exist in a world full of apples and oranges.
You can't see it but even on an intuitive level this "opinion" is really really biased. It seems reasonable when you have two options to choose from "OOP" and "FP", but what if you have more options? We have Declarative programming, Lisp style programming, assembly language programming, logic programming, reg-exp... Are we really to apply this philosophy to ALL possible styles of programming? Is every single thing in the universe truly apples and oranges or just a tool in a toolbox?
With this many options it's unlikely. Something must be bad, something must be good and many things are better then other things.
I am of the opinion that normal Procedural and imperative programming with functions is Superior to OOP for the majority of applications. I am not saying FP is better than imperative programming, I am saying OOP is a overall a bad tool even compared with normal programming. But I can't prove my opinion to be right, and you can't prove it to be wrong.
Without proof, all we can do is move in circles and argue endlessly. But, psychologically, people tend to fall for your argument because it's less extreme, it seemingly takes the "reasonable" mediator approach. But like I said even this approach is one form of an extreme and it is not reasonable at all.
I mean your evidence is just a bunch of qualitative factoids. An opponent to your opinion will come at you with another list of qualitative factoids. You mix all the factoids together and you have a bigger list of factoids with no definitive conclusion.
- still_grokking 4y agoNobody argued for any "better". The point is: When things become a religion with cargo culting acolytes even the "best" approaches stop making sense. That's completely independent of the concrete religion at hand. I did not argue to "pick sides"! In the end all the approaches are just tools. You need to wield them wisely for optimal results.
- deltasevennine 4y agoThis is the problem. You didn't even read my argument. Go read it again, carefully, instead of skimming through it. My point is: Maybe one of these religions is right. Maybe something is the best. Maybe a side must be picked. You didn't argue for better. You argued that everything is the same, that all things are good and nothing is bad and that every single thing in the programming universe is a tool in a toolbox. I disagree. Violently. The point is neither the culting acolytes OR people like you can prove it either way. But calling people who don't share your opinion as "culting acolytes" is manipulative. The words have negative connotations and it's wrong. Extreme opinions in science and logic are often proven to be true, they are often validated. To assume that anyone without a neutral opinion is a cultist is very biased in itself. Here's a good analogy: I believe the world is round. I'm an extremist. You on the other hand embrace all theories as tools in a toolbox. The world could be round or it could be flat, your the reasonable neutral arbiter taking neither the side of the flat-earther or round-earther. The illusion now is more clear. All 3 sides are a form of bias, but clearly our science says only one of these sides is true, and this side is NOT the "neutral arbiter" side
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- awgm 4y agoyeah but sometimes its useful to use a flat earth model when for instance the ground youre going to build something like a shed on is relatively flat. in the big picture sense i agree but in different contexts an alternative abstract model can suffice and actually be more efficient if the aim is to build the shed in this case