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EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

110 points by Markoff 4y ago

Markoff 4y ago
Article: While demand for electric vehicles has surged in last two years, new data from Consumer Reports finding that EVs are among the least reliable cars in the auto industry. Pras Subramanian here with the details and Pras, clearly something that the auto industry doesn't necessarily want to hear. PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah, you know, I was a little surprised to hear that. Because EVs, generally speaking, are simpler or easy to operate than a regular gas powered car. But I'm not surprised to hear about Tesla's issues with reliability here. So they found that owners of the Consumer Reports survey that they surveyed a bunch of their users and on all different models and all different makes of the cars. And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car. Still, Tesla still rose four spots to 19th overall, which isn't that great, but at least it did climb with the rankings. For non-Tesla EVs, there was issues with charging and batteries and also the motors. So that doesn't sound good, so that's kind of a little black market there for EVs. Overall, pickup trucks were bad overall in terms of the gas powered cars. Looking at the overall picture, we just saw that list up there, Toyota and Lexus retain the top spot. They've been there for a while now, very reliable cars. BMW, number three. I was really surprised to see that. Kind of speaks to what they're doing with the brand and improving reliability and that better kind of first interaction with the car, followed by Mazda and Honda. So seven of the top 10 brands here were actually Asian companies. So this rounds out the top 5 here with Mazda and Honda at that 4 and 5. - Interesting. All right, most reliable EVs also compiled. Who came out on top? Anything surprised you here? PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Most reliable EVs? - Hybrids. PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah. Yeah, so it turns out hybrids are actually very, very reliable. Talking about plug-in hybrids, think the Priuses of the world, things like that. So Consumer Reports put together 3 of their top hybrids here. The Lexus NX came out a few years ago in the premium luxury segment here. Very nice car, attractive car, good mileage there. The Ford Maverick. Now we actually had this truck. It is a small compact utility pickup truck. Unibody construction, 38 MPG with hybrid. Yeah. - 38 miles per gallon. PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: With the hybrid, yeah. It's actually a smooth car, really good fit and finish. And lastly, the Toyota Corolla. You can't go wrong here, not surprising from Toyota. They make the Prius, as you mentioned. This car gets 48 MPG. - Boy, that is some astounding numbers. Reliability is what those cars are all about. Pras Subramanian, our senior autos reporter. Good to see you, sir. Thank you. Report: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2022/11/hybrids-sedans-have-fewest-problems-in-consumer-reports-2022-annual-auto-reliability-survey/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...
- api 4y ago
  I'm a little skeptical given the massive disruption that EVs represent to the entire... well... oil is practically the basis for the entire world order. It's like the spice in Dune. Multiple powerful and large nations have economies with double-digit dependencies on oil and the use of the dollar for most oil trading is the single largest factor underpinning the US dollar's global reserve currency status. I'm also a little skeptical because we own two and have had zero problems, but of course small sample sizes and all that. (2013 Nissan Leaf and 2022 Nissan Leaf though, and Nissan tends to build indestructible tanks. I've owned ICE Nissans too. Had one survive a front wheel collision with a curb at 50mph with <$1000 in damage.) That being said I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that an entirely new drive train technology has teething issues. It's a pretty major departure from ICE drive trains. Manufacturing a complex item like a car at scale is extremely challenging. It also looks like Tesla's famous build quality issues are sinking the category to some extent. Tesla's drive train seems solid but the rest of the car... it's like the most technologically advanced drive train platform with a 1990s Kia on top.
  - timtom39 4y ago
    It isn't just Tesla. It is across the board there are big issues but this is not new. The big auto companies have always had this issue with new tech. For example, when they switched to aluminum block engines they had all sorts of horrible issues. Gas to EV is an even bigger jump. I suspect EV build quality will be poor for sometime. I just hope the public keeps embracing EV while they get things sorted.
    - api 4y ago
      I wonder if the Nissan Leaf is fairly reliable because it was one of the first mass market EVs ever so they have been building them for almost 10 years. Our 2013 is fine but we bought it used so we'd already passed the descent part of the bath tub failure curve on it. I do dimly recall issues with early Leaf cars, mostly with the battery. The other factor might be that it's basically a Nissan Versa with an EV drive train. The majority of the car is not different from their other cars, which I consider a feature because almost everything but the EV drive train uses standard parts and can be fixed by any mechanic. It basically just has a battery where the gas tank is and a motor that pretends to be an engine to the other hardware in the vehicle. (I read somewhere that this is almost literally true if you dip into its CANbus traffic.) It's also a little bit hackable: https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages I haven't done anything but I have a friend who's really into car hacking. Have chatted with him about maybe doing a side business upgrading these from CHADEMO to CCS. There are projects for doing that on GitHub with parts lists and code.
rrwo 4y ago
Interesting, since EVs supposedly have lower maintenance costs overall https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html > All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because: > The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance > - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance > - Brake wear is significantly reduced due to regenerative braking > - There are far fewer moving parts relative to a conventional fuel engine.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Maintenance <> reliability Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures. An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.
  - tunap 4y ago
    My cousin recently had a flat tire in her EV. Roadside Assistance did not have a spare, required an expensive tow & her day was a total loss. Dragging a toddler along made a stressful experience worse, as well. I did not previously realize most(?) EVs have no spare tire included.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Many new cars do not come with a spare either. I had a family friend I needed to help, and their Dodge caravan minivan, only came with an air pump that had a sealant to patch holes in the tire.
      - jstarfish 4y ago
        Was that standard, or an instance of the dealer stripping the accessories and marketing them as as add-ons? First I've heard of this. (Minivans often mount the spare in weird places around the undercarriage, not anywhere obvious...)
Bostonian 4y ago
The government should not ban gas-powered vehicles and force people to buy the "least reliable vehicle type", as California and other states are doing.
- inetknght 4y ago
  Gas powered vehicles still have utility in rural areas. But in the suburbs and especially in the cities? EV is the least-worst option. Pedestrians, bicycles, and mass transit should be the focus in suburbs and cities.
  - lowercased 4y ago
    An increase in 'flex fuel' vehicles, and converting more household and commercial ICE to accomodate flex fuel (E85, etc) would provide a smoother transition. We collectively seem to have simply dropped any interest in this, despite having some infrastructure in place already, and burning cleaner than existing petrol.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  California's ban doesn't start for new vehicles for 13 years. That's a very long time in this context.
- kube-system 4y ago
  These are 2022 models. No states are forcing people to buy these. California will be forcing people to buy the 2035 models, for which reliability ratings don’t yet exist
njovin 4y ago
> And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steering doesn't work." Maybe they do in the actual report but it's paywalled. Anecdotally I've seen quite a few minor cosmetic non-driving-related issues with Teslas but overall they've been very reliable (not requiring any motor, brake steering, or suspension maintenance) for everyone I know who owns one.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Paint is not a cosmetic issue, failing paint can cause mechanical failure due to corrosion. Improvements in automotive coatings is the number one reason that cars aren’t “worn out” at 5 years and 50,000 miles like they did in the 70s.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    Still not the same category as engine failure though
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Paint issues can cause problems much more severe in consequence and more expensive to repair than an engine failure. On the body, they may cause corrosion perforations and cause your vehicle to fail inspection. They may flake or peel and require expensive repainting. On structurally significant parts, a coating failure can do this: http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFok1.jpg http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFo...
      - FredPret 4y ago
        Here are some failure modes to consider: Paint fails: - parts rust - parts eventually fail - vehicle might bend in two or stop working altoghether - rust is slow, easily detectable by a mechanic. Takes months or years to do real damage Engine fails: - car won't go
KaiserPro 4y ago
In Which magazine, EVs were about as reliable as normal cars, however if you removed tesla from the ratings, then EV reliability jumped significantly to way above standard petrol/diesel. https://www.which.co.uk/ https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.
- Gravityloss 4y ago
  I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    Yes, but kids can't afford Teslas, now can they? The people who are actually paying for Teslas care about things such as fit and finish. They also care about reliability and service. I don't know about reliability, and here I'm talking about not getting stranded due to issues with the car, but frankly Tesla gets an 'F' everywhere else. Meanwhile Apple Car Play and Android Auto take care of the "kids" concern for infotainment software. I've seen many auto manufacturers go under over the course of my life. Tesla is just going to be another one.
  - starfallg 4y ago
    The Tesla infotainment system pre-2018/MCU2 is pretty laggy. The software also writes too much to the eMMC and bricks the MCU after a few years in the original design. And without Android Auto / Apple Carplay, you can't bypass it by plugging in your phone either, which is still a problem now.
    - schipplock 4y ago
      https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-asked-questions https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-ask...
trabant00 4y ago
Mechanical complexity is just one type of the overall complexity of a car. There are plenty examples of even ICE vehicles having poor electrical reliability. Now we have lots of software added into the mix. And EVs are pretty new technology too. Cars where at first less reliable than horse and buggy. Never bought the "moving parts" marketing. But I don't see how it could have gone different either. And early addopters taking a hit does speed progress a lot. So I guess overall there is no news or info here, things are as they could only be.
mgadams3 4y ago
I've owned 3 EVs and Tesla is the lowest quality car I've ever owned. Teslas weigh down the average b/c they're the majority of EVs on the road.
- krzyk 4y ago
  Teslas the majority? I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs. Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date? AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    In the US, the vast majority of EVs on the road are Teslas. Even today, they account for over 50% of sales. Other automakers are not shipping in volume to the US.
  - bitdivision 4y ago
    Not sure how reliable the source is but this [0] shows 60% of US EV sales were Teslas in Q3. 0: https://joinyaa.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales/ https://joinyaa.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and...
  - audunw 4y ago
    > I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs. Eh, Model S was high-end but wouldn't call it luxury. Lots of regular people with a decent income bought it. Interior wasn't up to "luxury" standards. My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all.
    - zhdc1 4y ago
      > My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all. Dual incomes make this a weak metric. The Model 3 also retails for the same price as the BMW 5 series and Mercedes-Benz E class.
    - 4y ago
throwaway22032 4y ago
Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs. My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place. And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.
- btbuildem 4y ago
  For issues with drivetrain etc -- absolutely. But it seems that a lot of the problems center around fit and finish of the body of the vehicle, trim, accessories etc -- stuff the industry has decades of experience with. It really sounds like quality was sacrificed for efficiency there.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    “The industry” also had decades of time to perfect their process, and afaik there isn’t some giant knowledge-sharing system in place for new manufacturers to get all the insights of “the industry”. A new car manufacturer is going to have issues in fit and finish for the first few years regardless as they figure out their tooling process. I’m sure quality was sacrificed to some extent, everyone does it whenever they can, but I wouldn’t expect a new company to be at the same level as one that’s been doing it for decades.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      But aren't most components actually sourced from third-parties? In which case, their experience with the traditional manufacturers could be reused. The French manufacturers, for example, don't produce their own seats. I don't expect the auxiliary (as in not engine / drivetrain related) components to be radically different just because they're attached to an EV-powered car. Or does Tesla actually manufacture everything?
abraxas 4y ago
If you exclude Teslas and plug in hybrids then most EVs are incredibly reliable. Yes, power electronics wear out and break on occasion but that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle. And car manufacturers only have a few years experience mass producing EVs. Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars. The future is not internal combustion.
- eptcyka 4y ago
  Yet, the original article specifically refers to the fact that hybrids seem to be more reliable on average than EVs currently. Might have something to do with the fact that the big Japanese powerhouses (Toyota, Honda and Mazda) haven't really spent any time developing high-power EV powertrains yet. But the atkinson-cycle and (relatively) small battery and elmotor combo has been around for 20 years and it's well honed in now. The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.
- deleted 4y ago
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- 543ge4q3 4y ago
  >that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle. Some days I dream of leaving the complexity and sheer scale of the software world and going to something simpler and more relatable, like mechanics. >Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars. This is so bogus. The only reason that most people will end up driving EVs will be because of govenment mandates. Most people were happy with ICE cars (and mostly are, even now).
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eckesicle 4y ago
Obviously anecdata but I've had an EV (Jaguar I-Pace) for a year and a bit now and it is by far the best and most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. I've driven over 8000 miles in it and have not had a single issue. Contrast it to my new diesel Mercedes, which I think I had to service 4 times over the first year I owned it. It just makes sense that they'd be far more reliable - there are far fewer moving parts that can break. If you don't need the >300 mile range regularly then an EV is by far the best choice. They're also cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.
kemiller 4y ago
My issue with CR for a long time is that I don’t trust their weighting. I’m much more worried about major drivetrain issues than flaky accessories in general, and it’s always seemed like they don’t distinguish between these categories the way I would. Their detailed breakdown is more useful but doesn’t impact these kinds of broad lists.
photochemsyn 4y ago
Much better reporting here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technologies-make-evs-less-reliable.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol... > "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles." It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla: > "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports." My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.
- quantumfissure 4y ago
  I don't understand why automakers aren't taking traditional small ICE vehicles and throwing the electric components in it. Besides having to spread the weight of batteries out a bit, is it really much harder (I'm not an engineer by any means)? I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning everything bigger and, in my opinion, uglier). I think to me, and to a lot of people, a car is just a car to get them from A to B, and don't want it to set them back $30-$40k. Except for a few Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leafs out there, the vehicles on the road seem to be Teslas and larger, fancier makes from traditional ICE manufacturers.
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    An ICEV chassis does not make a very good EV. The ICEVs that have been converted to EV, like the Ford Focus EV, don’t have enough room for a larger battery and have usually only had a battery with around 70-100 mile range. The battery usually intrudes into the cargo area reducing the space for luggage and groceries. Another problem is that the EV conversion adds a lot to the price. Then at the dealership, customers see an expensive Focus EV sitting next to a less expensive ICEV Focus and they tend to choose the less expensive option.
gdickie 4y ago
I drive a Ford Focus Electric. All of the non-drivetrain parts are standard focus stuff, and are fine. The same mostly-physical-controls UI that non-electric focus has. The usual wear parts wear out just like an ICE car, but the brakes need done a little less often. And the car is responsive and fun to drive. The new parts of the design have some rough edges; hopefully these are solved with the newer generation of EVs intended for mass production and making a profit: - Just like a Tesla, there is a traditional 12V battery that runs accessories when the car is off. This can be drained by rogue modules not shutting down properly. See https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 . I've had this happen several times. It's really annoying to need jump start when the main battery is at 100%. - This year after 5 years and 50K miles something went wrong with the main battery. Replaced under warranty and apparently uncommon.
elif 4y ago
I seriously question their methodology. I still daily drive a 2012 leaf, which has never been to a shop in its existence. 2 years on the Tesla and likewise zero issues.
rnouse 4y ago
Tesla is(was?) the mover and shaker, basically forced the big makers to adopt and ramp up EV production and engineering operations. As many others here note, the decades of designing ICE vehicles (inhouse or sourcing/sharing designs/materials), and multiple generations of vehicles of various types is all adding up to inform their final product design in ways no engineering team (however highly paid or talented) can compete with. The grocery-getting person in Ohio is not going to think twice when it's an 60k for a buggy used Tesla when Hyundai puts out something for 30 that works and lasts twice as long.
rickspencer3 4y ago
This has been very contrary to my experience. We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far. Literally zero issues with it (unless you count the slow leak in a tire from a nail). 10 years ago we had a Subaru that came with so many factory defects, we swore off Subaru forever. We have had many VWs, none of which ever broke down. They took a ton of maintenance compared to our EV, though. We were able to install a level 2 charger in our garage, and this had made the car completely worry free. Also, the experience of driving an EV is so much better than driving a gas powered car. I can't stress enough how much of an upgrade going full EV has been for us. I guess you need to be careful which specific model you buy, and we avoided Tesla because I felt that I had enough buggy software to deal with in my life, but I would guess that the most reliable EVs are much more reliable than the most reliable legacy gas engine cars. After having our EV, Ithink that they are simply just better, and a complete take over in the industry is inevitable.
- jjav 4y ago
  > We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far. "Almost a year" is hardly enough time to see what the long term reliability will be! Need to track realiability over 20-30 years to see how these models turn out.
starkd 4y ago
They neglected to mention the biggest problem of all. EVs in Florida randomly catching fire after a hurricane. It turns out salt water is not so good around EVs. "Fires are not just a concern in the presence of floods. Batteries can overheat, and crashes may damage the batteries, causing fires." https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fires-florida-hurricane-ian-safety-questions/634880/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fi...
- _ea1k 4y ago
  If fires due to submersion in salt water are the biggest problem, they must be pretty good. Believe it or not, that's a rare situation.
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  Salt is also pervasive on roads that get a lot of snow and ice. UPS is about to implement EV trucks here and I talk to the drivers all the time so I guess time will tell how that works out. AFAIK none of the locals own an EV but they do pass through here on their way to Yellowstone.
  - sk0g 4y ago
    When I was in Oslo a few years ago, every third car was a Tesla for whatever reason. Considering I haven't heard of too many catching fire there, I'd wager it should be fine.
    - _ea1k 4y ago
      The salt thing is about submersion. From the few pictures that I was able to find after Ian, it seems that some started in the front, near the low voltage battery. This sometimes happens with gas cars after hurricanes too, though the effects with BEVs can be more dramatic and require more resources to control. Road salt wouldn't be enough to cause this issue, as the batteries are pretty well sealed and the low voltage battery is well outside of the elements under normal operation.
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
megaman821 4y ago
There must be a better way to report these numbers. If Tesla picks a shoddy trunk latch supplier that may reflect poorly on Tesla as a brand, but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. I would be more interested in seeing the reliability of components that are critical to the propulsion of the car.
- ilyt 4y ago
  Would make more sense to compare within manufacturer.
- jjav 4y ago
  > but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. But at the end of the day if the car is in the shop, it's in the shop. Regardless of reason. I've had Fiat 500e EVs and they spent more time at the dealer for repairs than any other car I've had in almost 40 years. No, it wasn't for electric motor drivetrain repair but that's no consolation, I still didn't have a car to drive for those weeks. (Well I have other cars, but had it been my only car, I'd have been stranded.)
  - megaman821 4y ago
    That is just a lesson about being an early adopter of anything. Electric cars tend to be brand new models (and even have brand new manufacturers). The only vehicle that seems to be a good comparison of reliability is the Ford F-150, which does not have a substantially different IC and electric version.
noasaservice 4y ago
I know that the Twitterpolaypse is a separate discussion, but I think it directly impacts Tesla EV's as well. If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla. When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company, and appearing that he's operating a scorched earth model to "punish" that fact he was forced to buy Twitter. If the Twitter situation does come to a head vs Eli Lilly and all the other companies that substantially lost billions in blue-checkmark manipulation and the FTC consent decree - I can see an eventuality that Tesla is also substantially harmed.. Leading to vehicles that no longer work.
- frumper 4y ago
  You're saying a Tesla won't drive if Tesla goes bankrupt?
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    I would definitely consider that a possibility. That thing isn't a car - it's an IoT "thing" with wheels and a battery. And anybody who watches InternetOfShit with any regularity realizes that when there's mothership control, disablement and abandonment isn't far behind.
- buffington 4y ago
  > When Musk was forced to buy Twitter Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional. > If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla. My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.
lbriner 4y ago
It might match what others are asking, "what is reliable to the automaker/customer" but they talk about reliability and then start talking about flaking paint and trim that doesn't stick properly? Not really my definition of reliable which would be "it drives in an expected way". Quality is something else and since lots of EVs are currently high-price items, it doesn't surprise me that shortcuts are made to make everything as cheap as possible so that's fine. Then on my diesel Skoda, which has had 100 years to perfect, the auto-stop system frequently doesn't start the engine again. Anecdata maybe but my boss has had no problems with his Tesla Model X.
jokoon 4y ago
It's crazy how many people you can put in a bus a tram or a train. When abundance is over, we will finally make less cars.
kkfx 4y ago
I own an EV since too little BUT I've already have: - failed to start once, "High Voltage battery disconnected" error. Detached the 12V battery, reattached it, works again. As ALL modern crapware no logs, no clue of whats going on are available to the formal but not substantial owner... - still wait for the vendor to DISCONNECT some of it's workers phones so I can bound MY car to MY phone, to surveil charge, activate AC/heating from remote etc instead of someone else I do not know. Of course since all works through the OEM server the OEM can do anything on "my" EV... I'm very satisfied in terms of driving comfort, very dissatisfied in terms of range, even if it's sufficient in general terms, BUT I call for a collective action: we MUST IMPOSE all OEM to use ONLY FLOSS software AND ONLY personal/authority access to vehicles. It's damn crazy to allow private entity controls of fleets of private vehicles behind their formal owner. It's not just a risk for the owner h{im,er}self BUT also for a country who can potentially suffer traffic paralysis or multiple accidents on it's territory caused by a single private entity who in reality own all vehicles it have sold formally. No blackboxes MUST be allowed on sale. Those who try to sell them must be sanctioned so badly no one would even try doing so again.

110 points by Markoff 4y ago

Article: While demand for electric vehicles has surged in last two years, new data from Consumer Reports finding that EVs are among the least reliable cars in the auto industry. Pras Subramanian here with the details and Pras, clearly something that the auto industry doesn't necessarily want to hear. PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah, you know, I was a little surprised to hear that. Because EVs, generally speaking, are simpler or easy to operate than a regular gas powered car. But I'm not surprised to hear about Tesla's issues with reliability here. So they found that owners of the Consumer Reports survey that they surveyed a bunch of their users and on all different models and all different makes of the cars. And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car. Still, Tesla still rose four spots to 19th overall, which isn't that great, but at least it did climb with the rankings. For non-Tesla EVs, there was issues with charging and batteries and also the motors. So that doesn't sound good, so that's kind of a little black market there for EVs. Overall, pickup trucks were bad overall in terms of the gas powered cars. Looking at the overall picture, we just saw that list up there, Toyota and Lexus retain the top spot. They've been there for a while now, very reliable cars. BMW, number three. I was really surprised to see that. Kind of speaks to what they're doing with the brand and improving reliability and that better kind of first interaction with the car, followed by Mazda and Honda. So seven of the top 10 brands here were actually Asian companies. So this rounds out the top 5 here with Mazda and Honda at that 4 and 5. - Interesting. All right, most reliable EVs also compiled. Who came out on top? Anything surprised you here? PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Most reliable EVs? - Hybrids. PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah. Yeah, so it turns out hybrids are actually very, very reliable. Talking about plug-in hybrids, think the Priuses of the world, things like that. So Consumer Reports put together 3 of their top hybrids here. The Lexus NX came out a few years ago in the premium luxury segment here. Very nice car, attractive car, good mileage there. The Ford Maverick. Now we actually had this truck. It is a small compact utility pickup truck. Unibody construction, 38 MPG with hybrid. Yeah. - 38 miles per gallon. PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: With the hybrid, yeah. It's actually a smooth car, really good fit and finish. And lastly, the Toyota Corolla. You can't go wrong here, not surprising from Toyota. They make the Prius, as you mentioned. This car gets 48 MPG. - Boy, that is some astounding numbers. Reliability is what those cars are all about. Pras Subramanian, our senior autos reporter. Good to see you, sir. Thank you. Report: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2022/11/hybrids-sedans-have-fewest-problems-in-consumer-reports-2022-annual-auto-reliability-survey/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...

api 4y ago
I'm a little skeptical given the massive disruption that EVs represent to the entire... well... oil is practically the basis for the entire world order. It's like the spice in Dune. Multiple powerful and large nations have economies with double-digit dependencies on oil and the use of the dollar for most oil trading is the single largest factor underpinning the US dollar's global reserve currency status. I'm also a little skeptical because we own two and have had zero problems, but of course small sample sizes and all that. (2013 Nissan Leaf and 2022 Nissan Leaf though, and Nissan tends to build indestructible tanks. I've owned ICE Nissans too. Had one survive a front wheel collision with a curb at 50mph with <$1000 in damage.) That being said I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that an entirely new drive train technology has teething issues. It's a pretty major departure from ICE drive trains. Manufacturing a complex item like a car at scale is extremely challenging. It also looks like Tesla's famous build quality issues are sinking the category to some extent. Tesla's drive train seems solid but the rest of the car... it's like the most technologically advanced drive train platform with a 1990s Kia on top.
- timtom39 4y ago
  It isn't just Tesla. It is across the board there are big issues but this is not new. The big auto companies have always had this issue with new tech. For example, when they switched to aluminum block engines they had all sorts of horrible issues. Gas to EV is an even bigger jump. I suspect EV build quality will be poor for sometime. I just hope the public keeps embracing EV while they get things sorted.
  - api 4y ago
    I wonder if the Nissan Leaf is fairly reliable because it was one of the first mass market EVs ever so they have been building them for almost 10 years. Our 2013 is fine but we bought it used so we'd already passed the descent part of the bath tub failure curve on it. I do dimly recall issues with early Leaf cars, mostly with the battery. The other factor might be that it's basically a Nissan Versa with an EV drive train. The majority of the car is not different from their other cars, which I consider a feature because almost everything but the EV drive train uses standard parts and can be fixed by any mechanic. It basically just has a battery where the gas tank is and a motor that pretends to be an engine to the other hardware in the vehicle. (I read somewhere that this is almost literally true if you dip into its CANbus traffic.) It's also a little bit hackable: https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages I haven't done anything but I have a friend who's really into car hacking. Have chatted with him about maybe doing a side business upgrading these from CHADEMO to CCS. There are projects for doing that on GitHub with parts lists and code.

rrwo 4y ago

Interesting, since EVs supposedly have lower maintenance costs overall https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html > All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because: > The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance > - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance > - Brake wear is significantly reduced due to regenerative braking > - There are far fewer moving parts relative to a conventional fuel engine.

kube-system 4y ago
Maintenance <> reliability Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures. An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.
- tunap 4y ago
  My cousin recently had a flat tire in her EV. Roadside Assistance did not have a spare, required an expensive tow & her day was a total loss. Dragging a toddler along made a stressful experience worse, as well. I did not previously realize most(?) EVs have no spare tire included.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Many new cars do not come with a spare either. I had a family friend I needed to help, and their Dodge caravan minivan, only came with an air pump that had a sealant to patch holes in the tire.
    - jstarfish 4y ago
      Was that standard, or an instance of the dealer stripping the accessories and marketing them as as add-ons? First I've heard of this. (Minivans often mount the spare in weird places around the undercarriage, not anywhere obvious...)

Bostonian 4y ago

The government should not ban gas-powered vehicles and force people to buy the "least reliable vehicle type", as California and other states are doing.

inetknght 4y ago
Gas powered vehicles still have utility in rural areas. But in the suburbs and especially in the cities? EV is the least-worst option. Pedestrians, bicycles, and mass transit should be the focus in suburbs and cities.
- lowercased 4y ago
  An increase in 'flex fuel' vehicles, and converting more household and commercial ICE to accomodate flex fuel (E85, etc) would provide a smoother transition. We collectively seem to have simply dropped any interest in this, despite having some infrastructure in place already, and burning cleaner than existing petrol.
pwinnski 4y ago
California's ban doesn't start for new vehicles for 13 years. That's a very long time in this context.
kube-system 4y ago
These are 2022 models. No states are forcing people to buy these. California will be forcing people to buy the 2035 models, for which reliability ratings don’t yet exist

njovin 4y ago

> And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steering doesn't work." Maybe they do in the actual report but it's paywalled. Anecdotally I've seen quite a few minor cosmetic non-driving-related issues with Teslas but overall they've been very reliable (not requiring any motor, brake steering, or suspension maintenance) for everyone I know who owns one.

kube-system 4y ago
Paint is not a cosmetic issue, failing paint can cause mechanical failure due to corrosion. Improvements in automotive coatings is the number one reason that cars aren’t “worn out” at 5 years and 50,000 miles like they did in the 70s.
- FredPret 4y ago
  Still not the same category as engine failure though
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Paint issues can cause problems much more severe in consequence and more expensive to repair than an engine failure. On the body, they may cause corrosion perforations and cause your vehicle to fail inspection. They may flake or peel and require expensive repainting. On structurally significant parts, a coating failure can do this: http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFok1.jpg http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFo...
    - FredPret 4y ago
      Here are some failure modes to consider: Paint fails: - parts rust - parts eventually fail - vehicle might bend in two or stop working altoghether - rust is slow, easily detectable by a mechanic. Takes months or years to do real damage Engine fails: - car won't go

KaiserPro 4y ago

In Which magazine, EVs were about as reliable as normal cars, however if you removed tesla from the ratings, then EV reliability jumped significantly to way above standard petrol/diesel. https://www.which.co.uk/ https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.

Gravityloss 4y ago
I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.
- taylodl 4y ago
  Yes, but kids can't afford Teslas, now can they? The people who are actually paying for Teslas care about things such as fit and finish. They also care about reliability and service. I don't know about reliability, and here I'm talking about not getting stranded due to issues with the car, but frankly Tesla gets an 'F' everywhere else. Meanwhile Apple Car Play and Android Auto take care of the "kids" concern for infotainment software. I've seen many auto manufacturers go under over the course of my life. Tesla is just going to be another one.
- starfallg 4y ago
  The Tesla infotainment system pre-2018/MCU2 is pretty laggy. The software also writes too much to the eMMC and bricks the MCU after a few years in the original design. And without Android Auto / Apple Carplay, you can't bypass it by plugging in your phone either, which is still a problem now.
  - schipplock 4y ago
    https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-asked-questions https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-ask...

trabant00 4y ago

Mechanical complexity is just one type of the overall complexity of a car. There are plenty examples of even ICE vehicles having poor electrical reliability. Now we have lots of software added into the mix. And EVs are pretty new technology too. Cars where at first less reliable than horse and buggy. Never bought the "moving parts" marketing. But I don't see how it could have gone different either. And early addopters taking a hit does speed progress a lot. So I guess overall there is no news or info here, things are as they could only be.

mgadams3 4y ago

I've owned 3 EVs and Tesla is the lowest quality car I've ever owned. Teslas weigh down the average b/c they're the majority of EVs on the road.

krzyk 4y ago
Teslas the majority? I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs. Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date? AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  In the US, the vast majority of EVs on the road are Teslas. Even today, they account for over 50% of sales. Other automakers are not shipping in volume to the US.
- bitdivision 4y ago
  Not sure how reliable the source is but this [0] shows 60% of US EV sales were Teslas in Q3. 0: https://joinyaa.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales/ https://joinyaa.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and...
- audunw 4y ago
  > I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs. Eh, Model S was high-end but wouldn't call it luxury. Lots of regular people with a decent income bought it. Interior wasn't up to "luxury" standards. My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all.
  - zhdc1 4y ago
    > My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all. Dual incomes make this a weak metric. The Model 3 also retails for the same price as the BMW 5 series and Mercedes-Benz E class.
  - 4y ago

throwaway22032 4y ago

Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs. My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place. And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.

btbuildem 4y ago
For issues with drivetrain etc -- absolutely. But it seems that a lot of the problems center around fit and finish of the body of the vehicle, trim, accessories etc -- stuff the industry has decades of experience with. It really sounds like quality was sacrificed for efficiency there.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  “The industry” also had decades of time to perfect their process, and afaik there isn’t some giant knowledge-sharing system in place for new manufacturers to get all the insights of “the industry”. A new car manufacturer is going to have issues in fit and finish for the first few years regardless as they figure out their tooling process. I’m sure quality was sacrificed to some extent, everyone does it whenever they can, but I wouldn’t expect a new company to be at the same level as one that’s been doing it for decades.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    But aren't most components actually sourced from third-parties? In which case, their experience with the traditional manufacturers could be reused. The French manufacturers, for example, don't produce their own seats. I don't expect the auxiliary (as in not engine / drivetrain related) components to be radically different just because they're attached to an EV-powered car. Or does Tesla actually manufacture everything?

abraxas 4y ago

If you exclude Teslas and plug in hybrids then most EVs are incredibly reliable. Yes, power electronics wear out and break on occasion but that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle. And car manufacturers only have a few years experience mass producing EVs. Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars. The future is not internal combustion.

eptcyka 4y ago
Yet, the original article specifically refers to the fact that hybrids seem to be more reliable on average than EVs currently. Might have something to do with the fact that the big Japanese powerhouses (Toyota, Honda and Mazda) haven't really spent any time developing high-power EV powertrains yet. But the atkinson-cycle and (relatively) small battery and elmotor combo has been around for 20 years and it's well honed in now. The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.
deleted 4y ago
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543ge4q3 4y ago
>that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle. Some days I dream of leaving the complexity and sheer scale of the software world and going to something simpler and more relatable, like mechanics. >Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars. This is so bogus. The only reason that most people will end up driving EVs will be because of govenment mandates. Most people were happy with ICE cars (and mostly are, even now).

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eckesicle 4y ago

Obviously anecdata but I've had an EV (Jaguar I-Pace) for a year and a bit now and it is by far the best and most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. I've driven over 8000 miles in it and have not had a single issue. Contrast it to my new diesel Mercedes, which I think I had to service 4 times over the first year I owned it. It just makes sense that they'd be far more reliable - there are far fewer moving parts that can break. If you don't need the >300 mile range regularly then an EV is by far the best choice. They're also cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.

kemiller 4y ago

My issue with CR for a long time is that I don’t trust their weighting. I’m much more worried about major drivetrain issues than flaky accessories in general, and it’s always seemed like they don’t distinguish between these categories the way I would. Their detailed breakdown is more useful but doesn’t impact these kinds of broad lists.

photochemsyn 4y ago

Much better reporting here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technologies-make-evs-less-reliable.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol... > "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles." It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla: > "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports." My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.

quantumfissure 4y ago
I don't understand why automakers aren't taking traditional small ICE vehicles and throwing the electric components in it. Besides having to spread the weight of batteries out a bit, is it really much harder (I'm not an engineer by any means)? I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning everything bigger and, in my opinion, uglier). I think to me, and to a lot of people, a car is just a car to get them from A to B, and don't want it to set them back $30-$40k. Except for a few Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leafs out there, the vehicles on the road seem to be Teslas and larger, fancier makes from traditional ICE manufacturers.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  An ICEV chassis does not make a very good EV. The ICEVs that have been converted to EV, like the Ford Focus EV, don’t have enough room for a larger battery and have usually only had a battery with around 70-100 mile range. The battery usually intrudes into the cargo area reducing the space for luggage and groceries. Another problem is that the EV conversion adds a lot to the price. Then at the dealership, customers see an expensive Focus EV sitting next to a less expensive ICEV Focus and they tend to choose the less expensive option.

gdickie 4y ago

I drive a Ford Focus Electric. All of the non-drivetrain parts are standard focus stuff, and are fine. The same mostly-physical-controls UI that non-electric focus has. The usual wear parts wear out just like an ICE car, but the brakes need done a little less often. And the car is responsive and fun to drive. The new parts of the design have some rough edges; hopefully these are solved with the newer generation of EVs intended for mass production and making a profit: - Just like a Tesla, there is a traditional 12V battery that runs accessories when the car is off. This can be drained by rogue modules not shutting down properly. See https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 . I've had this happen several times. It's really annoying to need jump start when the main battery is at 100%. - This year after 5 years and 50K miles something went wrong with the main battery. Replaced under warranty and apparently uncommon.

elif 4y ago

I seriously question their methodology. I still daily drive a 2012 leaf, which has never been to a shop in its existence. 2 years on the Tesla and likewise zero issues.

rnouse 4y ago

Tesla is(was?) the mover and shaker, basically forced the big makers to adopt and ramp up EV production and engineering operations. As many others here note, the decades of designing ICE vehicles (inhouse or sourcing/sharing designs/materials), and multiple generations of vehicles of various types is all adding up to inform their final product design in ways no engineering team (however highly paid or talented) can compete with. The grocery-getting person in Ohio is not going to think twice when it's an 60k for a buggy used Tesla when Hyundai puts out something for 30 that works and lasts twice as long.

rickspencer3 4y ago

This has been very contrary to my experience. We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far. Literally zero issues with it (unless you count the slow leak in a tire from a nail). 10 years ago we had a Subaru that came with so many factory defects, we swore off Subaru forever. We have had many VWs, none of which ever broke down. They took a ton of maintenance compared to our EV, though. We were able to install a level 2 charger in our garage, and this had made the car completely worry free. Also, the experience of driving an EV is so much better than driving a gas powered car. I can't stress enough how much of an upgrade going full EV has been for us. I guess you need to be careful which specific model you buy, and we avoided Tesla because I felt that I had enough buggy software to deal with in my life, but I would guess that the most reliable EVs are much more reliable than the most reliable legacy gas engine cars. After having our EV, Ithink that they are simply just better, and a complete take over in the industry is inevitable.

jjav 4y ago
> We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far. "Almost a year" is hardly enough time to see what the long term reliability will be! Need to track realiability over 20-30 years to see how these models turn out.

starkd 4y ago

They neglected to mention the biggest problem of all. EVs in Florida randomly catching fire after a hurricane. It turns out salt water is not so good around EVs. "Fires are not just a concern in the presence of floods. Batteries can overheat, and crashes may damage the batteries, causing fires." https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fires-florida-hurricane-ian-safety-questions/634880/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fi...

_ea1k 4y ago
If fires due to submersion in salt water are the biggest problem, they must be pretty good. Believe it or not, that's a rare situation.
LinuxBender 4y ago
Salt is also pervasive on roads that get a lot of snow and ice. UPS is about to implement EV trucks here and I talk to the drivers all the time so I guess time will tell how that works out. AFAIK none of the locals own an EV but they do pass through here on their way to Yellowstone.
- sk0g 4y ago
  When I was in Oslo a few years ago, every third car was a Tesla for whatever reason. Considering I haven't heard of too many catching fire there, I'd wager it should be fine.
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    The salt thing is about submersion. From the few pictures that I was able to find after Ian, it seems that some started in the front, near the low voltage battery. This sometimes happens with gas cars after hurricanes too, though the effects with BEVs can be more dramatic and require more resources to control. Road salt wouldn't be enough to cause this issue, as the batteries are pretty well sealed and the low voltage battery is well outside of the elements under normal operation.
  - LinuxBender 4y ago

megaman821 4y ago

There must be a better way to report these numbers. If Tesla picks a shoddy trunk latch supplier that may reflect poorly on Tesla as a brand, but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. I would be more interested in seeing the reliability of components that are critical to the propulsion of the car.

ilyt 4y ago
Would make more sense to compare within manufacturer.
jjav 4y ago
> but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. But at the end of the day if the car is in the shop, it's in the shop. Regardless of reason. I've had Fiat 500e EVs and they spent more time at the dealer for repairs than any other car I've had in almost 40 years. No, it wasn't for electric motor drivetrain repair but that's no consolation, I still didn't have a car to drive for those weeks. (Well I have other cars, but had it been my only car, I'd have been stranded.)
- megaman821 4y ago
  That is just a lesson about being an early adopter of anything. Electric cars tend to be brand new models (and even have brand new manufacturers). The only vehicle that seems to be a good comparison of reliability is the Ford F-150, which does not have a substantially different IC and electric version.

noasaservice 4y ago

I know that the Twitterpolaypse is a separate discussion, but I think it directly impacts Tesla EV's as well. If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla. When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company, and appearing that he's operating a scorched earth model to "punish" that fact he was forced to buy Twitter. If the Twitter situation does come to a head vs Eli Lilly and all the other companies that substantially lost billions in blue-checkmark manipulation and the FTC consent decree - I can see an eventuality that Tesla is also substantially harmed.. Leading to vehicles that no longer work.

frumper 4y ago
You're saying a Tesla won't drive if Tesla goes bankrupt?
- noasaservice 4y ago
  I would definitely consider that a possibility. That thing isn't a car - it's an IoT "thing" with wheels and a battery. And anybody who watches InternetOfShit with any regularity realizes that when there's mothership control, disablement and abandonment isn't far behind.
buffington 4y ago
> When Musk was forced to buy Twitter Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional. > If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla. My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.

lbriner 4y ago

It might match what others are asking, "what is reliable to the automaker/customer" but they talk about reliability and then start talking about flaking paint and trim that doesn't stick properly? Not really my definition of reliable which would be "it drives in an expected way". Quality is something else and since lots of EVs are currently high-price items, it doesn't surprise me that shortcuts are made to make everything as cheap as possible so that's fine. Then on my diesel Skoda, which has had 100 years to perfect, the auto-stop system frequently doesn't start the engine again. Anecdata maybe but my boss has had no problems with his Tesla Model X.

jokoon 4y ago

It's crazy how many people you can put in a bus a tram or a train. When abundance is over, we will finally make less cars.

kkfx 4y ago

I own an EV since too little BUT I've already have: - failed to start once, "High Voltage battery disconnected" error. Detached the 12V battery, reattached it, works again. As ALL modern crapware no logs, no clue of whats going on are available to the formal but not substantial owner... - still wait for the vendor to DISCONNECT some of it's workers phones so I can bound MY car to MY phone, to surveil charge, activate AC/heating from remote etc instead of someone else I do not know. Of course since all works through the OEM server the OEM can do anything on "my" EV... I'm very satisfied in terms of driving comfort, very dissatisfied in terms of range, even if it's sufficient in general terms, BUT I call for a collective action: we MUST IMPOSE all OEM to use ONLY FLOSS software AND ONLY personal/authority access to vehicles. It's damn crazy to allow private entity controls of fleets of private vehicles behind their formal owner. It's not just a risk for the owner h{im,er}self BUT also for a country who can potentially suffer traffic paralysis or multiple accidents on it's territory caused by a single private entity who in reality own all vehicles it have sold formally. No blackboxes MUST be allowed on sale. Those who try to sell them must be sanctioned so badly no one would even try doing so again.