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PayPal isn't a bank, folks. If you treat PayPal like a bank, you will have a bad time. Almost all horror stories you hear about PayPal involve the user treatin

by Alupis 4y ago

PayPal isn't a bank, folks. If you treat PayPal like a bank, you will have a bad time. Almost all horror stories you hear about PayPal involve the user treating PayPal like they were a bank. Just do not store money in PayPal... sweep nightly if you use PayPal for business. They even provide tools to make this automated. The reason this policy exists is likely to remove super old liabilities for long-dormant accounts that have been long forgotten about. PayPal is not interested in storing funds forever... they want you to buy stuff with it or transfer it to your real bank account. This policy seems aimed at convincing people to "move it or lose it"...

scrollaway 4y ago
> The reason this policy exists is likely to remove super old liabilities for long-dormant accounts that have been long forgotten about. That’s exactly what this is. I don’t believe it’s meant to be a money grab towards existing customers (simply because it’s such a bad one). Everything has a lifetime. PayPal by now is full of accounts from dead people, money nobody is ever going to reclaim (even if someone out there has a better claim to it). This money has to go somewhere, otherwise it’s very literally dormant. In my country (Belgium), the government has tools to let people find and reclaim money they may be owed that is sitting in bank accounts. But something like PayPal is not really able to do this. With dormant fees, PayPal is able to create a lifetime on accounts with dormant money… they will eventually zero out. That said, they’re still scum and nobody should use PayPal, ever, for anything. I work in fintech - if you’re using PayPal and need recommendations to replace it, reply with your use case and I’ll respond.
- asddubs 4y ago
  My use case for paypal is that I don't have nor want a credit card, and places online accept it.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Why don't you want a credit card? They offer a lot of consumer protection and a lot of rewards, and if you use them responsibly, there's zero downside.
    - asddubs 4y ago
      I prefer my method of payment to not be pointlessly based on debt, but rather money I actually have.
      - Moru 4y ago
        Use a debit card instead? You can only spend as much money as you have on the bank account. Except for the gas station, they can put a hold on your card for roughly the amount of a full tank and then release it after they know how much you refueled for. This can create a debt but is limited in scope.
        throwaway67743 4y ago
        Slight niggle, anyone can preauth for presumably a full amount and adjust the charge or cancel it (it's instant via the card networks, like refunds, your bank is lying to you if they say things like 5 working days etc)
      - SanjayMehta 4y ago
        I use my no-fees credit card as if it's a charge card, clearing it every month.
      - weird-eye-issue 4y ago
        I've had a credit card for over 10 years and get roughly 3% back on average which comes out to thousands of dollars each year. Never once have I paid any interest or fees. It has helped build my credit which is a big part I have over a 800 credit score. The money automatically is paid each month out of my bank account, I don't have to manually do anything What exactly are the downsides I've had?
        Gasp0de 4y ago
        This (especially the building credit part) is only valid for the weird US rules though.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    What country are you in? How do you fund your PayPal account? If you don’t want a credit card because you don’t want debt, what you likely want is a debit card. Most banks issue it for free. If you are in the UK, make sure to tell your bank to set your overdraft to zero. If you are in the US, keep in mind that you are not building credit by choosing to never use a credit card (and yes I think it is stupid as well). I know there are zero-fee credit cards that can act as debit cards, I can find some recommendation if you like. In the US, Privacy.com is also a cool issuer of virtual cards which may have features you are interested in. If for some reason you don’t want a debit card either because you hate physical cards or something, know that Google Pay and Apple Pay also issue virtual cards on your behalf, and in some countries don’t need a card as payment method. PS: All money is debt :)
  - npc12345 4y ago
- joostdecock 4y ago
  > if you’re using PayPal and need recommendations to replace it, reply with your use case and I’ll respond I'm accepting donations for my open source software project (FreeSewing.org). I also need the shipping address because I send a little thank-you. What should I use instead that's available to people from different countries? PS; Also in Belgium btw, hi!
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    Have you checked out opencollective.com? Since you’re in Belgium your project is likely eligible for Open Source Collective Europe. They offer users a lot of different payment methods including card and even crypto since recently if you want to do that. They do have options to ask for a shipping address.
- kelnos 4y ago
  > In my country (Belgium), the government has tools to let people find and reclaim money they may be owed that is sitting in bank accounts. But something like PayPal is not really able to do this. In the US, there's also a system of unclaimed property, administered by each state. States hold onto such property, and at least the few states I've lived in allow you to search online for it, and provide a means to have it sent to you on request. I've found a couple hundred dollars over the past 20 years, mostly cases where I've overpaid some sort of account, and then the account was closed, though I recall one case where Google had been the one to submit some unclaimed property to the state in my name (never found out what it was from). PayPal could certainly set an inactivity limit -- say 5 years -- and then turn the funds over to the state listed in the account's user information. But they'd rather keep the money, and slowly siphon it off. I agree that this is a pretty bad money grab, but there's absolutely another option that would allow a PayPal user to reclaim that money later on.
- ilyt 4y ago
  > That said, they’re still scum and nobody should use PayPal, ever, for anything. I work in fintech - if you’re using PayPal and need recommendations to replace it, reply with your use case and I’ll respond. ....I'd imagine most of that would be "paying for stuff that has paypal as only payment method", or otherwise alternative being putting your CC information on the site you will use once and never again, and hoping that they have better security than paypal. And the rest being "well I want to give my user easy way to pay for stuff and paypal is just that"
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    Privacy.com has virtual one-off cards for this exact purpose. Revolut also followed suit and is available all over Europe. Wise has virtual cards but you need to regenerate them yourself.
    - npc12345 4y ago
bicx 4y ago
This is a practice that occurs elsewhere in U.S. fintech as well. A bank account can become dormant if there are no deposits or withdrawals over a specified period of time as determined by the governing state. For California, it's 5 years, but for other states, it can be as soon as 12 months. Once an account becomes dormant, the holding bank is required to send the funds to the state through an escheatment process. Those funds are then listed as unclaimed property. PayPal is not a bank, but but rather operates banking services performed through Synchrony Bank. PayPal manages individual accounts within Synchrony, and it performs required communications and actions on behalf of Synchrony bank. In the U.S., the bank is ultimately responsible for servicing these accounts, but a partner like PayPal can take on that responsibility with the bank's oversight. Some more info for the curious: investopedia.com/terms/d/dormant-account.asp Rather than perform this (potentially expensive and arduous) process of handing dormant funds over to the governing state, companies like PayPal opt to just slowly absorb dormant accounts. It's scummy and I hate it. I assume this transfer of funds also keeps the account from being legally considered dormant (since funds did move).
- ezfe 4y ago
  I have an account with a local bank so I can use their branch services as needed. I keep the balance high enough to earn 1¢ of interest every month, and I set up an automatic system with my main bank to transfer that 1¢ to me. Avoids the dormancy fee!
- fbdab103 4y ago
  Planet Money did an episode about Escheat: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/24/799345159/episode-967-escheat-show https://www.npr.org/2020/01/24/799345159/episode-967-escheat...
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  $10 is too much to charge for this. If it was $1, that would be a lot more tolerable.
  - deleted 4y ago
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TillE 4y ago
> Almost all horror stories you hear about PayPal involve the user treating PayPal like they were a bank That's something I noticed many years ago when PayPal complaints were big on Slashdot, and I was confused about why anyone would be leaving significant sums in their PayPal account. They've always made bank transfers pretty easy.
- rkagerer 4y ago
  They've always made bank transfers pretty easy. Unless you prefer not to link your PayPal to a bank account. There are horror stories out there of PayPal making bank withdrawals customers feel they didn't authorize. I wish you could get them to just simply mail you a cheque to get your money out.
  - mcherm 4y ago
    Years ago I found a solution to this problem I was comfortable with. I opened a separate (no fees) bank account just for linking to PayPal. I keep almost zero balance in that account except when I am in the process of moving money into and out of PayPal.
    - mastax 4y ago
      eBay forced me into this when they didn't support verifying with my existing bank, so I opened a new checking account just for these services. I wanted to be mad about it but the eBay customer service rep was really surprisingly helpful, and it's probably a good thing to do anyway.
  - silisili 4y ago
    I'm one of them. Paypal kept preferring my bank account as the means of payment, -even- when not set as the default behavior. I forgot the reason now, but in short default only means default for some things. I don't know if they've fixed that in the years since, but I've not linked a bank account since.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    Not sure about the US situation, but if PayPal withdraws money from my account for no good reason, I’d simply reverse the charge (2 clicks in my online banking). They can then sue, but that situation would happen if they want your money and can’t withdraw it anyway.
riedel 4y ago
>PayPal isn't a bank, folks. If you treat PayPal like a bank, you will have a bad time. You are saying the ECB should be having a bad time. Fair. PayPal is a licensed bank in Europe [1] [1] https://thebanks.eu/banks/16281/bank_identifiers https://thebanks.eu/banks/16281/bank_identifiers Edit: changed the link because it was a bit misleading
- sbarre 4y ago
  I wonder if that's why several European countries are excluded from this, according to the terms on the page linked in the submission.
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - rasz 4y ago
    This link https://www.paypal.com/re/smarthelp/article/what-is-the-inactivity-fee-(eu-countries)-faq4427 https://www.paypal.com/re/smarthelp/article/what-is-the-inac... worked for me until I logged in (EU), now it returns "he page you're looking for is no longer available.". I just checked in another fresh browser and I can read it fine. Looks like it magically stops existing as soon as you log in from EU. >Note: Personal accounts registered in Germany/Austria/Italy/Greece/Hungary/Poland are excluded from the inactivity fee assessment for 2022. yep, excluded and apparently its secret! WTF does "for 2022" mean here? Are they planning to hide it until they can finally charge me?
    - PinguTS 4y ago
      Maybe its because of too short notice and legally you have to inform your customers x months head? I don't know, but curious to know. Because I am in that situation.
  - usr1106 4y ago
    In Germany the banking industry has lost at least 2 high profile cases in the highest civil court in the recent years. They are not allowed to change the terms of business without the customer actively accepting the change. This seems the most applicable case here. I guess such fee was not at all in their terms before, so just sending an email that now there is won't work. Another case that loans must not have handling fees (on top of interest) might be less applicable here. There was also a case affecting all businesses many years ago. A debt does not expire earlier than 10 years later. So if the business still owns the customer something, they can't just say, oh sorry it has expired earlier. This affects mostly gift certificates or prepaid phone subscriptions, but why not "inactive" money at Paypal.
kazinator 4y ago
How is taking inactivity fees not like a bank? :)
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  Well when you're a bank, you've got your inactivity fees, activity fees, deposit fees, withdrawal fees, administrative fees, currency conversion fees, currency preservation fees, invoice fees, fee fees, ...
ramesh31 4y ago
The 20 year long trail of horror stories from PayPal that would be outright fraud if committed by an individual person is all the proof I need that our system is completely broken. They can't keep getting away with this.
giantg2 4y ago
I'd imagine they'd have a lot of legal/regulatory liabilities if they acted like a bank too.
- cbmuser 4y ago
  PayPal is a licensed bank in the EU.
  - throwaway67743 4y ago
    Not really, electronic money license yes, but not a full bank (there is also no such thing as an "EU" license, member states still require individual licenses in that country to actually have access to the banking network and do things like offer credit cards, "e-money" licenses were created to allow limited use operations without the burden of obtaining a full banking license (in many member states it's not worth the effort, for anyone)
memish 4y ago
I'm surprised people still use PayPal. It's always been a horror show. But this is the first time I've heard it described the way you do. Why don't they make that more clear?
Wingman4l7 4y ago
I ended up writing my own "sweeping" tool, as their support for this is (TLDR) limited: https://github.com/Wingman4l7/autosweepy https://github.com/Wingman4l7/autosweepy Unfortunately I can't test it or keep it updated anymore because, despite giving them many hundreds of dollars in legitimate eBay business fees, I was perma-banned without recourse (and in the process, I had to manually find via my bank a $1000+ clawback transfer they did but could not find in their system anywhere, and give them the info, so they could find it and eventually return it).
- Alupis 4y ago
  I'm curious why this tool's existence was necessary? If you have/had a business account, sweeping is free and built in - your onboarding rep would have even helped you configure it. If you abused a personal account... well that may be a clue into why your account was frozen. PayPal only makes money off business accounts and their transactional fees... if you tried to circumvent that and were obviously operating a business, then they would have good reason to freeze your account. Also, PayPal hasn't been part of eBay since 2014ish...
  - Wingman4l7 4y ago
    Paypal was still eBay's main payments processing provider until 2021-ish. Personal accounts are completely acceptable to use for receiving eBay order payments, and they definitely charge the transaction fees on sales. Lastly, sweeping should be available to accounts regardless of type, and you shouldn't have to talk to a person to enable it.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      Couple thoughts: 1) PayPal does not receive fees from your eBay activities. They are two completely separate companies. PayPal makes money by charging for business services. They provide free personal services as a convenience for everyone else - but the lights are paid for by business fees. 2) If you read the TOS for personal accounts, your eBay activity would be allowed if it was personal sale of stuff (think a Craigslist analog) or between friends and family members. Once you start operating a business on eBay and are clearly receiving payments for goods and/or services in a routine fashion that appears like a business - PayPal is going to want their cut too. This is not unreasonable. 3) A personal account has no need for sweeping, which is my guess as-to why this feature doesn't exist there. Sweeping is literally only useful for businesses that accrue daily revenue into the account... and if you are receiving daily revenue, you are operating a business - see #2 above. It seems the entire problem was a misunderstanding.
IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
This is not enough. Add a middle layer between your bank and paypal. Once you sync your bank account, Paypal can claw funds from your account for any reason it deems necessary. Do not give them this access into your business's main operating account. Bite the bullet and open a separate, standalone DDA with another bank (not the same bank, that won't achieve its intended effect).
- HoppyHaus 4y ago
  Could you elaborate more on this? Specifically the DDA bit - I don't know which acronym you're referring to.
  - lexa1979 4y ago
    Direct Deposit Account ?
    - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
      Demand deposit account. This is the technically correct term used with US-based vanilla bank accounts that are FDIC insured
  - mzzter 4y ago
    I’m assuming DDA stands for demand/direct deposit account. Keeping a separate one with a low balance for internet accounts can help keep a primary account unaffected if paypal or other internet services initiate a transfer without your permission (could also be due to a compromised paypal account).
    - HoppyHaus 4y ago
      Thank you!
- icelancer 4y ago
  Yup. This is mandatory. I think doing it at the same bank would be fine enough, but if you can pull it off, go to a different bank. I definitely take that extra precaution myself.
julian_sark 4y ago
1. Buy something from China. 2. Get a refund. 3. Account blocked for two weeks 1. Send €5. Add greeting note. 2. refuse to reveal last name and DOB of person mentioned in the greeting note to Paypal. 3. Have your account blocked and enter mailing loop hell with an Indian call center. 1. Have your account blocked for no reason 2. That's it. No, Sir. I'm sorry. It's not just the storing of money side that doesn't work with Paypal.
- majani 4y ago
  I'm convinced that they just flag transactions from richer countries to poorer countries as fraud. But sending money from the poorer country to the richer country is completely fine.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  believe it or not, jail
  - weeeeelp 4y ago
    You overdraw account? Jail. You withdraw deposit? Straight to jail, right away. PayPal has the best customers in the world, because of jail.
- pstrateman 4y ago
  The second example is a classic money laundering scheme. The amount in question is very small but it does perfectly fit the pattern.
  - theginger 4y ago
    Sending someone money with a note is classic money laundering? I'm not sure how that meets the pattern of money laundering any more than it meets the pattern of someone having a birthday.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  I am currently in the mailing loop hell and had to message an old colleague who now works there for help. It‘s absolute insanity. You can‘t speak with a higher up. Each call, the new customer service rep has to start from the beginning. Every third call is canceled on you without notice. Every second call they ask you to reset your password and wait 24 hours. Mind boggling.
seydor 4y ago
In europe, Paypal is a Luxembourg-based bank
dncornholio 4y ago
Alternative: Data engineer notices there's millions and millions of dollars on inactive accounts. With this one simple trick we can make it all ours.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nulbyte 4y ago
> Just do not store money in PayPal... sweep nightly if you use PayPal for business. They even provide tools to make this automated. Is this new? Last time I used PayPal for an NPO, they had no such thing.
throwaway346434 4y ago
Yeah. Nah. https://www.apra.gov.au/register-of-authorised-deposit-taking-institutions https://www.apra.gov.au/register-of-authorised-deposit-takin... If you sign up to be an authorised deposit taking institute, you actually have to adhere to that! It varies by jurisdiction. But if you think your model is that of a bank in one to register as a bank; MAYBE YOU ARE A BANK

by Alupis 4y ago

scrollaway 4y ago

> The reason this policy exists is likely to remove super old liabilities for long-dormant accounts that have been long forgotten about. That’s exactly what this is. I don’t believe it’s meant to be a money grab towards existing customers (simply because it’s such a bad one). Everything has a lifetime. PayPal by now is full of accounts from dead people, money nobody is ever going to reclaim (even if someone out there has a better claim to it). This money has to go somewhere, otherwise it’s very literally dormant. In my country (Belgium), the government has tools to let people find and reclaim money they may be owed that is sitting in bank accounts. But something like PayPal is not really able to do this. With dormant fees, PayPal is able to create a lifetime on accounts with dormant money… they will eventually zero out. That said, they’re still scum and nobody should use PayPal, ever, for anything. I work in fintech - if you’re using PayPal and need recommendations to replace it, reply with your use case and I’ll respond.

asddubs 4y ago
My use case for paypal is that I don't have nor want a credit card, and places online accept it.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Why don't you want a credit card? They offer a lot of consumer protection and a lot of rewards, and if you use them responsibly, there's zero downside.
  - asddubs 4y ago
    I prefer my method of payment to not be pointlessly based on debt, but rather money I actually have.
    - Moru 4y ago
      Use a debit card instead? You can only spend as much money as you have on the bank account. Except for the gas station, they can put a hold on your card for roughly the amount of a full tank and then release it after they know how much you refueled for. This can create a debt but is limited in scope.
      - throwaway67743 4y ago
        Slight niggle, anyone can preauth for presumably a full amount and adjust the charge or cancel it (it's instant via the card networks, like refunds, your bank is lying to you if they say things like 5 working days etc)
    - SanjayMehta 4y ago
      I use my no-fees credit card as if it's a charge card, clearing it every month.
    - weird-eye-issue 4y ago
      I've had a credit card for over 10 years and get roughly 3% back on average which comes out to thousands of dollars each year. Never once have I paid any interest or fees. It has helped build my credit which is a big part I have over a 800 credit score. The money automatically is paid each month out of my bank account, I don't have to manually do anything What exactly are the downsides I've had?
      - Gasp0de 4y ago
        This (especially the building credit part) is only valid for the weird US rules though.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  What country are you in? How do you fund your PayPal account? If you don’t want a credit card because you don’t want debt, what you likely want is a debit card. Most banks issue it for free. If you are in the UK, make sure to tell your bank to set your overdraft to zero. If you are in the US, keep in mind that you are not building credit by choosing to never use a credit card (and yes I think it is stupid as well). I know there are zero-fee credit cards that can act as debit cards, I can find some recommendation if you like. In the US, Privacy.com is also a cool issuer of virtual cards which may have features you are interested in. If for some reason you don’t want a debit card either because you hate physical cards or something, know that Google Pay and Apple Pay also issue virtual cards on your behalf, and in some countries don’t need a card as payment method. PS: All money is debt :)
- npc12345 4y ago
joostdecock 4y ago
> if you’re using PayPal and need recommendations to replace it, reply with your use case and I’ll respond I'm accepting donations for my open source software project (FreeSewing.org). I also need the shipping address because I send a little thank-you. What should I use instead that's available to people from different countries? PS; Also in Belgium btw, hi!
- scrollaway 4y ago
  Have you checked out opencollective.com? Since you’re in Belgium your project is likely eligible for Open Source Collective Europe. They offer users a lot of different payment methods including card and even crypto since recently if you want to do that. They do have options to ask for a shipping address.
kelnos 4y ago
> In my country (Belgium), the government has tools to let people find and reclaim money they may be owed that is sitting in bank accounts. But something like PayPal is not really able to do this. In the US, there's also a system of unclaimed property, administered by each state. States hold onto such property, and at least the few states I've lived in allow you to search online for it, and provide a means to have it sent to you on request. I've found a couple hundred dollars over the past 20 years, mostly cases where I've overpaid some sort of account, and then the account was closed, though I recall one case where Google had been the one to submit some unclaimed property to the state in my name (never found out what it was from). PayPal could certainly set an inactivity limit -- say 5 years -- and then turn the funds over to the state listed in the account's user information. But they'd rather keep the money, and slowly siphon it off. I agree that this is a pretty bad money grab, but there's absolutely another option that would allow a PayPal user to reclaim that money later on.
ilyt 4y ago
> That said, they’re still scum and nobody should use PayPal, ever, for anything. I work in fintech - if you’re using PayPal and need recommendations to replace it, reply with your use case and I’ll respond. ....I'd imagine most of that would be "paying for stuff that has paypal as only payment method", or otherwise alternative being putting your CC information on the site you will use once and never again, and hoping that they have better security than paypal. And the rest being "well I want to give my user easy way to pay for stuff and paypal is just that"
- scrollaway 4y ago
  Privacy.com has virtual one-off cards for this exact purpose. Revolut also followed suit and is available all over Europe. Wise has virtual cards but you need to regenerate them yourself.
  - npc12345 4y ago

bicx 4y ago

This is a practice that occurs elsewhere in U.S. fintech as well. A bank account can become dormant if there are no deposits or withdrawals over a specified period of time as determined by the governing state. For California, it's 5 years, but for other states, it can be as soon as 12 months. Once an account becomes dormant, the holding bank is required to send the funds to the state through an escheatment process. Those funds are then listed as unclaimed property. PayPal is not a bank, but but rather operates banking services performed through Synchrony Bank. PayPal manages individual accounts within Synchrony, and it performs required communications and actions on behalf of Synchrony bank. In the U.S., the bank is ultimately responsible for servicing these accounts, but a partner like PayPal can take on that responsibility with the bank's oversight. Some more info for the curious: investopedia.com/terms/d/dormant-account.asp Rather than perform this (potentially expensive and arduous) process of handing dormant funds over to the governing state, companies like PayPal opt to just slowly absorb dormant accounts. It's scummy and I hate it. I assume this transfer of funds also keeps the account from being legally considered dormant (since funds did move).

ezfe 4y ago
I have an account with a local bank so I can use their branch services as needed. I keep the balance high enough to earn 1¢ of interest every month, and I set up an automatic system with my main bank to transfer that 1¢ to me. Avoids the dormancy fee!
fbdab103 4y ago
Planet Money did an episode about Escheat: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/24/799345159/episode-967-escheat-show https://www.npr.org/2020/01/24/799345159/episode-967-escheat...
diebeforei485 4y ago
$10 is too much to charge for this. If it was $1, that would be a lot more tolerable.
- deleted 4y ago
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deleted 4y ago

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TillE 4y ago

> Almost all horror stories you hear about PayPal involve the user treating PayPal like they were a bank That's something I noticed many years ago when PayPal complaints were big on Slashdot, and I was confused about why anyone would be leaving significant sums in their PayPal account. They've always made bank transfers pretty easy.

rkagerer 4y ago
They've always made bank transfers pretty easy. Unless you prefer not to link your PayPal to a bank account. There are horror stories out there of PayPal making bank withdrawals customers feel they didn't authorize. I wish you could get them to just simply mail you a cheque to get your money out.
- mcherm 4y ago
  Years ago I found a solution to this problem I was comfortable with. I opened a separate (no fees) bank account just for linking to PayPal. I keep almost zero balance in that account except when I am in the process of moving money into and out of PayPal.
  - mastax 4y ago
    eBay forced me into this when they didn't support verifying with my existing bank, so I opened a new checking account just for these services. I wanted to be mad about it but the eBay customer service rep was really surprisingly helpful, and it's probably a good thing to do anyway.
- silisili 4y ago
  I'm one of them. Paypal kept preferring my bank account as the means of payment, -even- when not set as the default behavior. I forgot the reason now, but in short default only means default for some things. I don't know if they've fixed that in the years since, but I've not linked a bank account since.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  Not sure about the US situation, but if PayPal withdraws money from my account for no good reason, I’d simply reverse the charge (2 clicks in my online banking). They can then sue, but that situation would happen if they want your money and can’t withdraw it anyway.

riedel 4y ago

>PayPal isn't a bank, folks. If you treat PayPal like a bank, you will have a bad time. You are saying the ECB should be having a bad time. Fair. PayPal is a licensed bank in Europe [1] [1] https://thebanks.eu/banks/16281/bank_identifiers https://thebanks.eu/banks/16281/bank_identifiers Edit: changed the link because it was a bit misleading

sbarre 4y ago
I wonder if that's why several European countries are excluded from this, according to the terms on the page linked in the submission.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rasz 4y ago
  This link https://www.paypal.com/re/smarthelp/article/what-is-the-inactivity-fee-(eu-countries)-faq4427 https://www.paypal.com/re/smarthelp/article/what-is-the-inac... worked for me until I logged in (EU), now it returns "he page you're looking for is no longer available.". I just checked in another fresh browser and I can read it fine. Looks like it magically stops existing as soon as you log in from EU. >Note: Personal accounts registered in Germany/Austria/Italy/Greece/Hungary/Poland are excluded from the inactivity fee assessment for 2022. yep, excluded and apparently its secret! WTF does "for 2022" mean here? Are they planning to hide it until they can finally charge me?
  - PinguTS 4y ago
    Maybe its because of too short notice and legally you have to inform your customers x months head? I don't know, but curious to know. Because I am in that situation.
- usr1106 4y ago
  In Germany the banking industry has lost at least 2 high profile cases in the highest civil court in the recent years. They are not allowed to change the terms of business without the customer actively accepting the change. This seems the most applicable case here. I guess such fee was not at all in their terms before, so just sending an email that now there is won't work. Another case that loans must not have handling fees (on top of interest) might be less applicable here. There was also a case affecting all businesses many years ago. A debt does not expire earlier than 10 years later. So if the business still owns the customer something, they can't just say, oh sorry it has expired earlier. This affects mostly gift certificates or prepaid phone subscriptions, but why not "inactive" money at Paypal.

kazinator 4y ago

How is taking inactivity fees not like a bank? :)

marginalia_nu 4y ago
Well when you're a bank, you've got your inactivity fees, activity fees, deposit fees, withdrawal fees, administrative fees, currency conversion fees, currency preservation fees, invoice fees, fee fees, ...

ramesh31 4y ago

The 20 year long trail of horror stories from PayPal that would be outright fraud if committed by an individual person is all the proof I need that our system is completely broken. They can't keep getting away with this.

giantg2 4y ago

I'd imagine they'd have a lot of legal/regulatory liabilities if they acted like a bank too.

cbmuser 4y ago
PayPal is a licensed bank in the EU.
- throwaway67743 4y ago
  Not really, electronic money license yes, but not a full bank (there is also no such thing as an "EU" license, member states still require individual licenses in that country to actually have access to the banking network and do things like offer credit cards, "e-money" licenses were created to allow limited use operations without the burden of obtaining a full banking license (in many member states it's not worth the effort, for anyone)

memish 4y ago

I'm surprised people still use PayPal. It's always been a horror show. But this is the first time I've heard it described the way you do. Why don't they make that more clear?

Wingman4l7 4y ago

I ended up writing my own "sweeping" tool, as their support for this is (TLDR) limited: https://github.com/Wingman4l7/autosweepy https://github.com/Wingman4l7/autosweepy Unfortunately I can't test it or keep it updated anymore because, despite giving them many hundreds of dollars in legitimate eBay business fees, I was perma-banned without recourse (and in the process, I had to manually find via my bank a $1000+ clawback transfer they did but could not find in their system anywhere, and give them the info, so they could find it and eventually return it).

Alupis 4y ago
I'm curious why this tool's existence was necessary? If you have/had a business account, sweeping is free and built in - your onboarding rep would have even helped you configure it. If you abused a personal account... well that may be a clue into why your account was frozen. PayPal only makes money off business accounts and their transactional fees... if you tried to circumvent that and were obviously operating a business, then they would have good reason to freeze your account. Also, PayPal hasn't been part of eBay since 2014ish...
- Wingman4l7 4y ago
  Paypal was still eBay's main payments processing provider until 2021-ish. Personal accounts are completely acceptable to use for receiving eBay order payments, and they definitely charge the transaction fees on sales. Lastly, sweeping should be available to accounts regardless of type, and you shouldn't have to talk to a person to enable it.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    Couple thoughts: 1) PayPal does not receive fees from your eBay activities. They are two completely separate companies. PayPal makes money by charging for business services. They provide free personal services as a convenience for everyone else - but the lights are paid for by business fees. 2) If you read the TOS for personal accounts, your eBay activity would be allowed if it was personal sale of stuff (think a Craigslist analog) or between friends and family members. Once you start operating a business on eBay and are clearly receiving payments for goods and/or services in a routine fashion that appears like a business - PayPal is going to want their cut too. This is not unreasonable. 3) A personal account has no need for sweeping, which is my guess as-to why this feature doesn't exist there. Sweeping is literally only useful for businesses that accrue daily revenue into the account... and if you are receiving daily revenue, you are operating a business - see #2 above. It seems the entire problem was a misunderstanding.

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago

This is not enough. Add a middle layer between your bank and paypal. Once you sync your bank account, Paypal can claw funds from your account for any reason it deems necessary. Do not give them this access into your business's main operating account. Bite the bullet and open a separate, standalone DDA with another bank (not the same bank, that won't achieve its intended effect).

HoppyHaus 4y ago
Could you elaborate more on this? Specifically the DDA bit - I don't know which acronym you're referring to.
- lexa1979 4y ago
  Direct Deposit Account ?
  - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
    Demand deposit account. This is the technically correct term used with US-based vanilla bank accounts that are FDIC insured
- mzzter 4y ago
  I’m assuming DDA stands for demand/direct deposit account. Keeping a separate one with a low balance for internet accounts can help keep a primary account unaffected if paypal or other internet services initiate a transfer without your permission (could also be due to a compromised paypal account).
  - HoppyHaus 4y ago
    Thank you!
icelancer 4y ago
Yup. This is mandatory. I think doing it at the same bank would be fine enough, but if you can pull it off, go to a different bank. I definitely take that extra precaution myself.

julian_sark 4y ago

1. Buy something from China. 2. Get a refund. 3. Account blocked for two weeks 1. Send €5. Add greeting note. 2. refuse to reveal last name and DOB of person mentioned in the greeting note to Paypal. 3. Have your account blocked and enter mailing loop hell with an Indian call center. 1. Have your account blocked for no reason 2. That's it. No, Sir. I'm sorry. It's not just the storing of money side that doesn't work with Paypal.

majani 4y ago
I'm convinced that they just flag transactions from richer countries to poorer countries as fraud. But sending money from the poorer country to the richer country is completely fine.
yieldcrv 4y ago
believe it or not, jail
- weeeeelp 4y ago
  You overdraw account? Jail. You withdraw deposit? Straight to jail, right away. PayPal has the best customers in the world, because of jail.
pstrateman 4y ago
The second example is a classic money laundering scheme. The amount in question is very small but it does perfectly fit the pattern.
- theginger 4y ago
  Sending someone money with a note is classic money laundering? I'm not sure how that meets the pattern of money laundering any more than it meets the pattern of someone having a birthday.
selfmodruntime 4y ago
I am currently in the mailing loop hell and had to message an old colleague who now works there for help. It‘s absolute insanity. You can‘t speak with a higher up. Each call, the new customer service rep has to start from the beginning. Every third call is canceled on you without notice. Every second call they ask you to reset your password and wait 24 hours. Mind boggling.

seydor 4y ago

In europe, Paypal is a Luxembourg-based bank

dncornholio 4y ago

Alternative: Data engineer notices there's millions and millions of dollars on inactive accounts. With this one simple trick we can make it all ours.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nulbyte 4y ago

> Just do not store money in PayPal... sweep nightly if you use PayPal for business. They even provide tools to make this automated. Is this new? Last time I used PayPal for an NPO, they had no such thing.

throwaway346434 4y ago

Yeah. Nah. https://www.apra.gov.au/register-of-authorised-deposit-taking-institutions https://www.apra.gov.au/register-of-authorised-deposit-takin... If you sign up to be an authorised deposit taking institute, you actually have to adhere to that! It varies by jurisdiction. But if you think your model is that of a bank in one to register as a bank; MAYBE YOU ARE A BANK