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Considering it's looking very likely that US based companies are going to be locked out of the EU over GDPR and FISA - creating an EU based version of all the m

Considering it's looking very likely that US based companies are going to be locked out of the EU over GDPR and FISA - creating an EU based version of all the major players seems like a very wise move.

_vbnz 4y ago
But they could just do that directly - like Russia and China have done with Yandex, VK, WeChat, TikTok, Baidu, etc. But for some reason the EU is still hooked on neoliberalism and anti-protectionism, even when it has ravaged the continent with the energy crisis and the US monopolising the Tech industry, etc. (remember that the ZX Spectrum, BBC Micro, Acorn, ARM, Linux and Nokia were all European once). Like in this case - it'd be better to just invest directly into support for EU-based FOSS consultancies to contribute and maintain critical libraries like OpenSSL, LibreSSL, Linux, etc. - and then all EU government and industry would benefit with that, whilst keeping the jobs and investment in the EU. They're just so short-sighted and dogmatic about neoliberalism (as well as doing whatever the US asks, regardless of the negative effect on Europe). It's no wonder we're being eclipsed by China. Just look at the GDP per capita and Productivity since 2008 - https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=GB-US-ES-DE-FR-IT https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
- Foobar8568 4y ago
  So much this. This morning I was thinking about the supposed CIA handbook to ruin companies, at this stage I wonder if it wasn't done for states. My wife asked me why I don't create startup, well it's all due to these bullshits.
  - varispeed 4y ago
    Because the idea behind it is that commoners like me and you shouldn't be able to start a business without backing of an investor blessed by the EU officials. That's how they are introducing neo-communism by the backdoor. Technically private initiative is still legal and possible, but it is not in practice. So if you have an idea, your only option, eventually will be to get hired at one of big corporations and try to sell your idea at one of their start-up incubators. Difference is that you'll always be a salaried worker (and remain in working class) and shareholders will profit from your idea not yourself.
    - swores 4y ago
      > That's how they are introducing neo-communism by the backdoor. Even by HN's typical standards of political discussions, this sentence is quite something. You can't actually be serious? This bill looks pretty shit, but you're jumping from that to a conspiracy theory that just doesn't seem to match reality at all?
      - bjornsing 4y ago
        It’s not just this law though. They keep coming at a steady pace.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      That's not neo-communism. That's neo-serfdom or something, but not neo-communism. (Of course, Communism as actually implemented wasn't what Communism was supposed to be, either. It was in fact just another neo-serfdom.)
      - varispeed 4y ago
        Under Communism you are a serf, unless you are higher up in the party.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- that_guy_iain 4y ago
  > But for some reason the EU is still hooked on neoliberalism and anti-protectionism, even when it has ravaged the continent with the energy crisis and the US monopolising the Tech industry, etc. (remember that the ZX Spectrum, BBC Micro, Acorn, ARM, Linux and Nokia were all European once). So the EU and it's consumer/people right's over company rights caused Russia to invade Ukraine and therefore decrease the supply of energy causing an increase in prices??? This is one of the craziest, nonsensical takes I've ever read.
  - nivenkos 4y ago
    Ukraine is not a member of the EU nor NATO, there were no obligations to intervene or introduce the self-destructive sanctions, etc. We haven't intervened in Armenia or Ethiopia for example.
    - that_guy_iain 4y ago
      This comment is also nonsensical. Russia increasing the energy prices would have happened if NATO stepped in or not. In fact, they would have increased a lot more.
      - ExoticPearTree 4y ago
        Isn't this how the markets work? You extract the maximum amount of profit. It is not like the Russians were forcing the EU to buy gas from them. The EU were the ones trying to force Russia to sell gas to everyone, and not only that, but to also deliver it to specific transit routes. Like "you can't cut off Ukraine" because they're gonna freeze or something. There's a lot of nonsense that is happening just because bureaucrats are stubborn and think the world should work how they dream it at night.
        that_guy_iain 4y ago
        It’s exactly how markets work. Build a dependency and remove Competitors and raise prices. Also, part of the issue isn’t Russia raising their prices but a reduction in supply either from Russia removing a supply or countries not wanting to buy from Russia.
brookst 4y ago
What's the long term play? The climate is so hostile that any success is likely to be rewarded with a regulatory response that mandates giving up any competitive advantage. I don't see it as attractive for any for-profit investment. Maybe it's the right incubator for open source / nonprofit alternatives?
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  > I don't see it as attractive for any for-profit investment. Well don't forget, it applies to non-profits too. Or an individual who makes money from it. edit: can't reply to the reply below (too nested? IDK). > I'm not sure I'm understanding your point... could you please elaborate? My point is the compliance laws apply to "non-profits" (the legal entity) and individuals that make a profit from OSS. Perhaps you covered that in "for profit" but that term is often used for companies and in contrast to "non-profit"
  - brookst 4y ago
    I'm not sure I'm understanding your point... could you please elaborate?
  - brookst 4y ago
    Ah, thanks for the edit. Yeah, I hear you... the burdens are also real for non-profits and individuals. I should have said it is more about motivations. I wouldn't go into EU to complete against displaced ROW companies in the hopes of making money (personally or as a company or a VC). But if the mission was to make the world a better place and profit wasn't important, sure. As business-unfriendly as the environment is, it is very consumer friendly, at least in intent. IMO there may be unintended consequences that harm consumers but their hearts are in the right place.
oytis 4y ago
To me the whole regulation frenzy looks not as much as locking out US-based companies, but rather limiting power of software industry and community in general in favour of old industries and bureaucrats.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  This. But it's the same with everything in Europe - sky-high income tax and VAT, but zero to little inheritance tax, property tax, land value tax, capital gains tax, etc. Like the idea is to punish workers (skilled and unskilled) and keep the power and wealth in the hands of the aristocrats.
  - bjornsing 4y ago
    This. They call it a “garden” [1], and they clearly love it. Like genuinely love it. Personally, as an EU citizen, I’m filled with disgust. 1. https://youtu.be/f8SKblpc7kY https://youtu.be/f8SKblpc7kY
    - nivenkos 4y ago
      What I find bizarre about that quote is that the EU itself has been a huge proponent of becoming a refugee centre for the aftermath of American wars. Even now they still punish member countries for trying to enforce their borders.
      - bjornsing 4y ago
        In the video he explicitly says this should not be about building walls, but spreading this way of thinking to the rest of the world.
    - Aeolun 4y ago
      > It's the best combination of political freedom, economic prosperity and social cohesion that humankind has been able to build It’s not that I necessarily disagree. It’s just that it’s a sad state of affairs if this is the best we can do.

_vbnz 4y ago

But they could just do that directly - like Russia and China have done with Yandex, VK, WeChat, TikTok, Baidu, etc. But for some reason the EU is still hooked on neoliberalism and anti-protectionism, even when it has ravaged the continent with the energy crisis and the US monopolising the Tech industry, etc. (remember that the ZX Spectrum, BBC Micro, Acorn, ARM, Linux and Nokia were all European once). Like in this case - it'd be better to just invest directly into support for EU-based FOSS consultancies to contribute and maintain critical libraries like OpenSSL, LibreSSL, Linux, etc. - and then all EU government and industry would benefit with that, whilst keeping the jobs and investment in the EU. They're just so short-sighted and dogmatic about neoliberalism (as well as doing whatever the US asks, regardless of the negative effect on Europe). It's no wonder we're being eclipsed by China. Just look at the GDP per capita and Productivity since 2008 - https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=GB-US-ES-DE-FR-IT https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...

Foobar8568 4y ago
So much this. This morning I was thinking about the supposed CIA handbook to ruin companies, at this stage I wonder if it wasn't done for states. My wife asked me why I don't create startup, well it's all due to these bullshits.
- varispeed 4y ago
  Because the idea behind it is that commoners like me and you shouldn't be able to start a business without backing of an investor blessed by the EU officials. That's how they are introducing neo-communism by the backdoor. Technically private initiative is still legal and possible, but it is not in practice. So if you have an idea, your only option, eventually will be to get hired at one of big corporations and try to sell your idea at one of their start-up incubators. Difference is that you'll always be a salaried worker (and remain in working class) and shareholders will profit from your idea not yourself.
  - swores 4y ago
    > That's how they are introducing neo-communism by the backdoor. Even by HN's typical standards of political discussions, this sentence is quite something. You can't actually be serious? This bill looks pretty shit, but you're jumping from that to a conspiracy theory that just doesn't seem to match reality at all?
    - bjornsing 4y ago
      It’s not just this law though. They keep coming at a steady pace.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    That's not neo-communism. That's neo-serfdom or something, but not neo-communism. (Of course, Communism as actually implemented wasn't what Communism was supposed to be, either. It was in fact just another neo-serfdom.)
    - varispeed 4y ago
      Under Communism you are a serf, unless you are higher up in the party.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
that_guy_iain 4y ago
> But for some reason the EU is still hooked on neoliberalism and anti-protectionism, even when it has ravaged the continent with the energy crisis and the US monopolising the Tech industry, etc. (remember that the ZX Spectrum, BBC Micro, Acorn, ARM, Linux and Nokia were all European once). So the EU and it's consumer/people right's over company rights caused Russia to invade Ukraine and therefore decrease the supply of energy causing an increase in prices??? This is one of the craziest, nonsensical takes I've ever read.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Ukraine is not a member of the EU nor NATO, there were no obligations to intervene or introduce the self-destructive sanctions, etc. We haven't intervened in Armenia or Ethiopia for example.
  - that_guy_iain 4y ago
    This comment is also nonsensical. Russia increasing the energy prices would have happened if NATO stepped in or not. In fact, they would have increased a lot more.
    - ExoticPearTree 4y ago
      Isn't this how the markets work? You extract the maximum amount of profit. It is not like the Russians were forcing the EU to buy gas from them. The EU were the ones trying to force Russia to sell gas to everyone, and not only that, but to also deliver it to specific transit routes. Like "you can't cut off Ukraine" because they're gonna freeze or something. There's a lot of nonsense that is happening just because bureaucrats are stubborn and think the world should work how they dream it at night.
      - that_guy_iain 4y ago
        It’s exactly how markets work. Build a dependency and remove Competitors and raise prices. Also, part of the issue isn’t Russia raising their prices but a reduction in supply either from Russia removing a supply or countries not wanting to buy from Russia.

brookst 4y ago

What's the long term play? The climate is so hostile that any success is likely to be rewarded with a regulatory response that mandates giving up any competitive advantage. I don't see it as attractive for any for-profit investment. Maybe it's the right incubator for open source / nonprofit alternatives?

nonethewiser 4y ago
> I don't see it as attractive for any for-profit investment. Well don't forget, it applies to non-profits too. Or an individual who makes money from it. edit: can't reply to the reply below (too nested? IDK). > I'm not sure I'm understanding your point... could you please elaborate? My point is the compliance laws apply to "non-profits" (the legal entity) and individuals that make a profit from OSS. Perhaps you covered that in "for profit" but that term is often used for companies and in contrast to "non-profit"
- brookst 4y ago
  I'm not sure I'm understanding your point... could you please elaborate?
- brookst 4y ago
  Ah, thanks for the edit. Yeah, I hear you... the burdens are also real for non-profits and individuals. I should have said it is more about motivations. I wouldn't go into EU to complete against displaced ROW companies in the hopes of making money (personally or as a company or a VC). But if the mission was to make the world a better place and profit wasn't important, sure. As business-unfriendly as the environment is, it is very consumer friendly, at least in intent. IMO there may be unintended consequences that harm consumers but their hearts are in the right place.

oytis 4y ago

To me the whole regulation frenzy looks not as much as locking out US-based companies, but rather limiting power of software industry and community in general in favour of old industries and bureaucrats.

nivenkos 4y ago
This. But it's the same with everything in Europe - sky-high income tax and VAT, but zero to little inheritance tax, property tax, land value tax, capital gains tax, etc. Like the idea is to punish workers (skilled and unskilled) and keep the power and wealth in the hands of the aristocrats.
- bjornsing 4y ago
  This. They call it a “garden” [1], and they clearly love it. Like genuinely love it. Personally, as an EU citizen, I’m filled with disgust. 1. https://youtu.be/f8SKblpc7kY https://youtu.be/f8SKblpc7kY
  - nivenkos 4y ago
    What I find bizarre about that quote is that the EU itself has been a huge proponent of becoming a refugee centre for the aftermath of American wars. Even now they still punish member countries for trying to enforce their borders.
    - bjornsing 4y ago
      In the video he explicitly says this should not be about building walls, but spreading this way of thinking to the rest of the world.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    > It's the best combination of political freedom, economic prosperity and social cohesion that humankind has been able to build It’s not that I necessarily disagree. It’s just that it’s a sad state of affairs if this is the best we can do.