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I'm horrified by so many of the comments here that seem to lack even the most basic of human decency. Allow me to fill people in for those who have never uproot

I'm horrified by so many of the comments here that seem to lack even the most basic of human decency. Allow me to fill people in for those who have never uprooted your life and moved across the world for a job. It is a massive commitment on the part of the employee, where you sell the majority of your earthly possessions, property, cars, etc. Then you go through an immigration process which even if its handled by FAANG involves a ton of work. You get to the new country, find a place to live and start to adjust. So to do that to someone and then days later be like "we actually don't want you" is beyond shitty. This persons visa is dependent on their employment so now they get to go into a city they don't know and try desperately to find employment with an employer who is interested in sponsoring someone from abroad (which is a small fraction of the total employers). For all you budding Elons, here's a shorthand for it. If you ask someone to move across the world and don't need them anymore, give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews. Or don't recruit internationally.

hliyan 4y ago
I'm inclined to agree. Giving a neutral, business sounding label to something like this, and normalising it doesn't make it right. As an interaction between two individuals, this would be immediately recognised as morally wrong, even if contractually right. Isn't morality supposed to scale?
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  Theoretically it is; practically corporations are implicitly immoral - they’re not human, they have no feelings, it’s only left to whatever (HR in this case) procedures are in place to ensure a positive outcome. Such procedures tend to fail when you move fast and break things.
  - feet 4y ago
    No matter which way you try and slice it, there's always a human at the end of the decision. A human made the policies, a human made the layoff decision, a human decides to enforce policy.
    - hnbad 4y ago
      More generally, sticking with the status quo is a moral decision. Just because you feel less guilty because you just followed orders instead of "making a choice", that doesn't make you morally neutral. We like to talk big words about how "evil only exists because good people do nothing" or whatever but when facing the banality of minor evils every day we not only do nothing but shrug our shoulders when others do the same.
    - sigkill 4y ago
      At a certain point, we need to start piercing the corporate veil and hold people accountable.
      - sneak 4y ago
        The term of art “pierce the corporate veil” literally exists because we already do this.
        feet 4y ago
        Do we, though?
    - spencerchubb 4y ago
      Saying a human is at the end of this decision is like saying a gun is at the end of a decision to shoot. The company is going to do layoffs regardless. If you swap in another CEO for Mark, that's just giving the company a different weapon to do the deed.
      - kiliancs 4y ago
        I'm having trouble accepting this comment is not sarcastic. The fact that most CEOs or boards would behave the same way doesn't make it moral, and the whole point of this specific threat is whether morality can be applied to corporations.
        spencerchubb 4y ago
  - FerociousTimes 4y ago
    I think you might have meant amoral not immoral or you stand by your phrasing?
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    > corporations are implicitly immoral i think the word you are looking for is amoral?
erfgh 4y ago
Did they promise him three months on the books if he gets fired?
- scott_w 4y ago
  > is beyond shitty. Something being legal doesn't make it moral.
- mukesh610 4y ago
  There's a difference between getting fired and laid off
gsatic 4y ago
Budding Elons are not capable of doing anything else. There are leaders who understand that and keep them on a tight leash, (cuz u can't not use their mindless ambition and over optimizing tendencies or ur competition will) and there are people who call themselves leaders who loose the leash.
kortilla 4y ago
> For all you budding Elons, here's a shorthand for it Pretty solid post barring that non sequitur. This is a post about Meta, which is not controlled by Elon.
danmur 4y ago
Responsible companies will make these situations right even where the law doesn't specifically require it. Hope that's what will happen.
- callmeal 4y ago
  Well, I'm not sure you can put "responsible company" and "facebook/meta" in the same sentence.
johannes1234321 4y ago
> you sell the majority of your earthly possessions Not only those. You give up being able to easily meet your family, friends, ... your favorite spot for hanging out is gone and you are in a completely different society, with other ways how things are done. And then in this case with just two days in you are probably still in some temporary housing. For staying you need to find a new job, quickly and a new apartment (which is hard without a job and without permanent visa) and when going home you likely will be marked as a loser who couldn't do it.
- lakomen 4y ago
  And you will get homesick eventually. You will miss the food you usually eat, the places you visit, the feeling you get after e.g. the rain in that special place etc. And the culture of the people or just hearing your home slang, or the smell. Not easy
- chx 4y ago
  > with other ways how things are done. When I immigrated to Canada, online ordering was not as ubiquitous as it is now. I needed to ask someone in the elevator where to buy a laundry basket. I had no idea. Come to think of, how on earth would you know? They do not give you a "handbook to Canadian living" when you land on an IM-1 visa. Bookkeeper. Lawyer. Handyman. Figure all that out, again, as if those weren't hard enough in the first case. These things are much harder than anyone would reasonably expect. I expected the change of friends, places etc but never occurred to me how hard it'll be to re-learn shopping.
  - mab122 4y ago
    Oh but there is! > Living & Working in Canada: A Survival Handbook (Living and Working) https://www.amazon.com/Living-Working-Canada-Survival-Handbook/dp/1901130371 https://www.amazon.com/Living-Working-Canada-Survival-Handbo...
  - piva00 4y ago
    When I immigrated to Sweden I jokingly said to my friends "I'm relearning how to be an adult". Taxes, bank accounts, grocery stores, buying alcohol, going to the doctor's, and so and so forth. I had to learn how to do these things again. If one never moved to a very different society there's no way to really empathise how deep these changes go, you uproot everything that was considered your life. The only thing you have left when moving 10000km away for a job is... The job itself.
lynx23 4y ago
So, you advocate that employees from abroad should have some sort of default lay-off protection? Why do you think this is fair?
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Would it be fair to you if _all_ employees had a default lay-off protection ? That would be for the best as well.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Once hired, you can never be fired. Great idea! Enjoy companies never hiring anyone because they'll be completely unable to let them go.
  - lynx23 4y ago
    Too much protection leads to dismal performance, because people know whatever they do, there are no consequences. I am not a fan of such an approach.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      "Too much protection" doesn't match "whatever they do" to me. On your larger point, looking at countries with pretty strong worker protection, companies still have a flurry of tools to punish or get rid of workers that are way below their expected performance or crossing lines. "We can't fire people" is basically a myth, or what people really mean is "We can't willy nilly fire people like they're cattle". I've seen people fired on the spot after heated discussion with the direction or people let go following a month or two of HR monitoring. The company only needs to do its homework and properly document offenses, follow the processes, or pay the full price if it really wants to get rid of someone with no objective reason.
- blitzar 4y ago
  Fire the employee who has put in 10 years building the business up for you, has deep internal knowledge, knows their way around the maze of infrastructure instead?
mytailorisrich 4y ago
We understand the predicament and feel for this guy, but so what? This sort of thing happens and there is nothing wrong with a company doing that. There is no need to be overly dramatic or immature. We can just hope that the company will provide a good level of support and that the person will be able to get back on their feet ASAP.
- arrrg 4y ago
  Why do you think there is nothing wrong with a company doing that? Ethically? Legally?
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Why should there be anything 'wrong' with laying off someone who has just joined, whether they've relocated or not? When companies decide on large re-orgs, whole teams, departments, business unit can go. That's just the way it is. Relocating is no protection against being laid off, be it legally or ethically. Companies can show empathy and that they care by providing support, as said.
    - sethammons 4y ago
      It feels like a bait and switch, which is unethical.
    - oblio 4y ago
      > Relocating is no protection against being laid off, be it legally or ethically. This is not one or the other. Relocating should probably involve a minimum notice period, legally. Especially in this particular case, the company for sure can afford it. They're potentially destroying a person's life (or at least a few years of their life) with something like a 0.0000001% disturbance for the company.
    - bigbillheck 4y ago
      > That's just the way it is. You're making an empirical claim to argue against something normative.
mrtksn 4y ago
IMHO, the libertarian trends of thought are pushing people to think everyone as a trader and abolishment of professions. From that perspective, business is business and the employee should have striken a better deal but from a professionals perspective they are not businessmen - they are professionals and the business is handled by someone else and they join a team where they get compensated for their time(they don't expect to get rich in the job, they expect to have stable career until retirement). When the distinction is not clear, professionals are essentially getting ripped off. If it was clear that everyone is a trader and some trade their coding time, then Meta wouldn't be able to do this because the trader would have put the cancellation terms in the deal. If it was clear that they are professionals and don't with FB but join that company, then it is expected that the law should protect the workers. It's the worst when you ara positioned as a single person trader who doesn't want to be a trader, doesn't have the skills of a trader and trades with a giant trader.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  We invented regulated employment and worker protections for good reasons.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    I agree. Many professions are essential, as we saw during the pandemic - someone must do those jobs. Yet again, most of those jobs are not suitable to strike it big and retire early because you can't kanban hard enough to retire in your 30s or clean the hospital floors through enough to be set for life. Which means, unless you lust for human misery and collapse of the civilisation the professionals should be protected against exploitation.
athrow 4y ago
> This persons visa is dependent on their employment so now they get to go into a city they don't know and try desperately to find employment with an employer who is interested in sponsoring someone from abroad (which is a small fraction of the total employers). Alternatively they can just return to India? I'd be surprised if they didn't receive reallocation package (16k USD according to teamblind?). I don't expect any employer to go above and beyond their contractual obligations. There is also certain irony here in Meta employees expecting ethical behavior from Meta whilst happily creating and maintaining unethical outcomes for the customers.
- geodel 4y ago
  > Alternatively they can just return to India? .. Indeed. So many have returned to India in far worse circumstances during 2008 recession. > There is also certain irony here in Meta employees expecting ethical behavior from Meta whilst happily creating and maintaining unethical outcomes for the customers. You are right. I am sorry to say but this outpouring for folks who are in vastly better financial situation is an example of People like Us have more feelings than masses.
- caskstrength 4y ago
  > I'd be surprised if they didn't receive reallocation package (16k USD according to teamblind?). Are you sure they will be allowed to keep it? Relocation package is usually tied to one year work period in the new location and you have to give it back if you leave earlier than that.
  - pas 4y ago
    Good question, but it would be rather unfair to clawback the package when the termination was not due to fault of the employee.
kypro 4y ago
I do agree, but I guess I'm not sure what the solution is here? Large layoffs in large orgs are generally done at a team level rather than an individual level. So presumably this individual's entire team no longer exists. So out of respect for them relocating do you then try to reposition them in the company somehow? And what about all the people who didn't relocate but may have recently left stable job for an opportunity at Meta? Do they not matter or should they also be repositioned out of respect? And what about those who have personal reasons that make the layoff extra difficult? For example, those who might have just had a new born or who have family members in hospital? Do their personal situations not also matter? And for how long would these individuals be safe if you do make an exception? Do you keep them for 3 months just to be nice then proceed with the layoff anyway? I'm not sure that's much better... I think maybe the best thing to do here is just to give good severance packages? I don't think I'm being heartless. I'm sat here thinking both, "man this is awful" while also having no idea what the right answer is. You can argue layoffs suck more for certain people and those people should be protected, but for a larger org needing to do mass-layoffs it seems almost impossible to make those kinds of assessments on an individual level in a way that is fair. You'd inevitably just end up protecting certain types of crappy situations (recently located) over other types of crappy situations (family member just died). Just thinking out loud... Maybe I'm missing something here.
- Msurrow 4y ago
  The solution is right there in OPs post: “give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews.” Thats it. HR knows who is working on visa. Inform them of the situation, give them 3 months, take away all their accesses and let them spend the 3 months to look for a new job. Meta makes a bazillion USD pr year. Even if they had to pay 1000 workers on visa for 3 months it wont make a dent in their profits. For the employee that just relocated, on the other hand, this makes all the difference in the world. Corporate greed is disgusting when its put above Human decency like this.
  - murderfs 4y ago
    Isn't this literally what's happening? (Except it's 4 months, not 3?)
vintagedave 4y ago
> so many of the comments here that seem to lack even the most basic of human decency Reading them, so am I. There is no sign of empathy: that understanding of another individual, the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes, that is fundamental to a healthy society and (IMO) personal integrity. I read a comment a few years ago that no-one thinks of themselves as a bad person. To yourself, you are always okay. Yet lacking as you phrase it 'human decency', or for me, 'empathy', as so clearly illustrated in those harsh, inhuman, uncaring, comments that show no concern nor understanding of the person, the human, the feeling caring uprooted emotion-bearing trouble-striving human at the center of this... I don't know. I feel like quite a few people in this post need to question themselves.
- imperfect_blue 4y ago
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >You yourself have no empathy for those who would make those supposedly "harsh, inhuman, uncaring, comments" That's fine. You don't have to go down infinite meta-levels of empathy. You can just treat nazis like scum, and jerks like jerks. As long as you treat other people well and with compassion, you would still be behaving far better and more positively than how those who would make those supposedly "harsh, inhuman, uncaring, comments" are.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      > As long as you treat other people well and with compassion And you just choose who you consider "people" and who you consider "scum". It's like that old joke about Linux being user-friendly, it's just very picky about who it considers a user. That position is shit, though.
      - coldtea 4y ago
        >And you just choose who you consider "people" and who you consider "scum". Yes. That's necessary too. Did you rather treat everybody as an undifferentiated fog? Compassion is not about bending over backwards for jerks. >It's like that old joke about Linux being user-friendly, it's just very picky about who it considers a user. Even that is very defensible: you can be user-friendly for different groups with different needs - and this often does not translate to being user-friendly to everybody. E.g. if you try to please admins, and developers, and power users, and professionals, you won't also be user friendly in the sense that an OS focused on consumers or a program aimed at children is. What a professional designer considers must-have and user-friendly features (to him as a user) and what someone who just shot a couple of holiday photos and wants to resize them considers user frienly, is not the same thing...
newsclues 4y ago
Why call out Elon when this situation was Zuckerberg?
- svet_0 4y ago
  Elon hate is strong on this site
  - newsclues 4y ago
    It’s like the Trump hate, irrational and all encompassing.
    - FieryTransition 4y ago
      Why do you think the trump hate is irrational? What is the main rational points and reasons you like Trump? Or at least, think that he is being unfairly treated, since that does not require liking/agreeing with him.
      - chiefalchemist 4y ago
        Fwiw I understand why people despise Don. But I don't understand the blind dedication to hate, especially when other politicians and leaders pull similar shenanigans and then there's crickets. If you're violently against X or Y that's fine. But apply the rules evenly, fairly, and rationally. When you hate so hard and so long that you lose your compass...that's irrational. The majority of Trump haters fall into this bucket.
        sofixa 4y ago
        > But I don't understand the blind dedication to hate, especially when other politicians and leaders pull similar shenanigans and then there's crickets Do feel free to share examples of other politicians mocking disabled people, or bragging about sexual assault, or trying a coup or any of the millions of transgressions of trump and not facing any criticism.
lzooz 4y ago
- ako 4y ago
  But without a job he maybe forced to move back.
- saddist0 4y ago
  First of all, he isn't "living" but on a timer against VISA expiration. I also think that you are under-estimating the luxurious and easy lifestyle which one can enjoy while living in India. (and what he tried to give up for migrating) I know some of the top talents who decided to never migrate, because of better helping hands, supporting community and families, easy cabs/transportation to easy payments. And it is just improving over time...
fredgrott 4y ago
I think I speak for the whole HN community in that it's not the code or the visual design; it's instead can we find the value of the community and re-tell and value those community values that makes startup people successful. Meta firing people is not the problem in of itself, but the methods used to do it is somewhat destroying the impression that they value what they have hoisted up to everyone; namely the degree of connectiveness and that community of connectiveness. A better way would be for Mark Z to sell some of his stock holdings and offer dis-engagement bonuses for people to leave. This is also highlights the incentives bias you have to avoid, in this case the ads-revenue incentive bias.
coinbasetwwa 4y ago
- pas 4y ago
  hm, could you spell it out for the slower ones? :) I don't get what do you mean by preventative medicine?
Aeolun 4y ago
This very much depends on the person. When I moved abroad when I was 23 I did so with nothing more than the backpack I brought along. If they’d let me go two days later I would have bought a ticket home and returned to my previous job. If I did the same thing now, I would have to sell my house, somehow ship all my posessions to the other country without inconveniencing my wife and child, etc. I’d have to be damn certain my job wouldn’t disappear a day after I arrive. In other words, I could _never_ move to the US.
- yodsanklai 4y ago
  > When I moved abroad when I was 23 I did so with nothing more than the backpack I brought along. That was my experience. I moved to the US, stayed in a hostel for a month, it seems very normal. At that age, you're also more likely to be able to rely on your parents if things go wrong. 20 years later, I relocated again. This was a different story. Even without a family, it was a much bigger commitment. Over the years, we accumulate goods, friends, job security, we start to worry about saving for retirement and want to avoid mistakes.
londons_explore 4y ago
Simple solution: Only agree to relocate if your contract guarantees you employment for at least X months... Or a termination payment of Y dollars if employment lasts less than X months. Anyone who moves across the world for an employer without getting a term like that in writing simply is naive - and we shouldn't offer them sympathy after the fact. It's like someone having their house flooded when they deliberately decided not to get flood insurance... Like, you knew the risk you were taking on...
- oblio 4y ago
  Have you tried that? Has it ever worked? How many people do you know that have done that? 1%? 5%? 10%? What you're saying is fantasy land except for executives.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    If enough engineers started demanding it, it wouldn't be fantasy land... I have negotiated changes to my employment contract at every job I've ever worked, big and small companies, so it is very possible. Usually just crossing out a clause or editing a number is pretty straightforward and doesn't require approvals too high up the management chain.
bombolo 4y ago
I had a coworker in a similar situation. He had just immigrated with his family from Asia for a job, and soon after the startup we were at fired everyone and shut down. I took it easy before finding a job but he had to literally accept the 1st offer he got (which was bad) or he would have probably needed to move back.
- pas 4y ago
  Isn't there at least a few months trial period in these cases? :o Or this was after that?
  - bombolo 4y ago
    Before the trial period… but so what? If the company is no longer there…
throwaway1207 4y ago
as someone on visa and survived the layoffs and who internally inquired on how the layoff logistics worked for employees on work visas. The answer is, the layoff is only effective 8 weeks from nov 9 , so something like Jan 10th, after which the countdown to find the new job begins (60 days for US, not sure about canadian work visa) So its not as bad as it sounds or portrayed by parent comment.
erlich 4y ago
This is crazy entitlement. Three months salary in a tech job is more than most people make in a year. If you are moving overseas, maybe wait before selling all your stuff until you pass probation. This idea that you should be guaranteed three months is so backwards. You are on trial. Tell me anyone’s advice that goes “we should fire slow, hire fast”.
- oblio 4y ago
  Ok, let's ignore the selling stuff. Your partner also quits their good job. That good job might not be available if you come back, congratulations, you're back at years of job hunting and job hopping to be where you were years before. In the new country maybe this was not a concern and the other partner who was just laid off had a great salary to cover. Your kids leave their good school. Now that school no longer accepts applicants and you're stuck with whatever you can find on a short notice. This list is far from comprehensive.
  - deskamess 4y ago
    Exactly... these are mental costs that many of us who have done the move understand and feel deeply as it has been experienced. For everyone else, we rely on their ability to empathize. Empathy, compassion, and life experiences make it easier to understand people.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > Your partner also quits their good job. So you're going "all in", hoping for a giant reward (aka to make more in a year than the average Indian makes in their lifetime). It doesn't work out. That's part of the risk of going all in. Or you don't go all in, you don't move your family immediately, and you have a much lower risk for the cost of paying for a flat in Canada and one in India for a few months until everything has settled and you're confident enough.
    - bilvar 4y ago
      Exactly, why do we keep absolving people from their personal decisions, expecting society to take the hit from the personal risks they take is beyond me. Like nobody wants to plan for their best-case scenario not materialising and when it doesn't it's the fault of everybody else that they find themselves in that situation.
bearmode 4y ago
HN is absolutely full of uncaring libertarian techbros, the comments are exactly what I've come to expect.
geodel 4y ago
- hnfong 4y ago
  > in-demand , well paid professions. Competing for jobs with 10k+ people who are more qualified than you during industry-wide hiring freezes must be fun.
bboygravity 4y ago
That was a pretty strong post until Elon got dragged into it.
negamax 4y ago
As someone who immigrated to West. I was initially shocked by people's attitude. At times I was outright told that you are * Filling diversity quota * Cheaper * Economic migrant The worst part about this is that I was working doubly hard, paying insane taxes while paying insane rents. But eventually I realized people saying these things are just looking for their psychological safety. Of course such people are a minority and usually from lower rungs of society. When they see foreigners coming over and living a better life, they come up with abstracts and conspiracy theories. Sad to see such people filtering onto HN. This place has always been forward looking, so far.
- deskamess 4y ago
  When times get tough and everyone is on the block, people who are not necessarily from the 'lower rungs' show their true colors. It becomes them over you and they will resort to code-words or sometimes, as in my case, plain out point out my immigration status in 2-3 standup meetings (once the rumor mill of layoffs got started). This person was an 'upper-rung' sort of chap too; after all, they got their degree from a Christian college/university in South Carolina (or was it North Carolina? - one of the Carolinas). Compassion, empathy and all that must have come as second nature. But not their first.
- relaxing 4y ago
  > This place has always been forward looking, so far. You must not wade into the political topics very often.
- Shocka1 4y ago
  This is bizarre to me that people would actually say this to you. Anecdotally, I've worked for some pretty well known tech companies and have never heard anyone talk this way openly. I never worked in Silicon Valley or SF, but these corporations I worked for regularly hired Indian and Eastern European developers because they were great developers... Some of my best mentors immigrated from these areas. If you are hearing this kind of talk regularly, I think it's time to change who you work with as this doesn't seem right or normal to me.
z9znz 4y ago
> where you sell the majority of your earthly possessions, property, cars, etc. I think this bit is actually a good thing. The rest of the story is indeed unfortunate, but having to eliminate possessions is probably more positive in life than negative. We tend to accumulate so much, and then our stuff becomes an invisible burden.
samatman 4y ago
Solution is simple: Don't work for Facebook. Facebook is evil. When bad things happen to elite people who choose evil, sympathy is misplaced.
- dvngnt_ 4y ago
  bad advice as this is their first layoff ever. so historically they were a safe job there was no way he could tell he would be laid off ahead of time
  - cduzz 4y ago
    Meta is a company who's product is people sausage. Don't be surprised if they view the people who work at the sausage factory with the same regard they the people who are ground up and fed to advertisers. Whatever they do to people who are weaker than you they'll do to you next. Or something like that.
synu 4y ago
I am not sure where it is coming from exactly. I’ve been around for other major downturns, this is the first I recall at least where there’s almost like a “What Would Ebenezer Scrooge Do” mentality that has taken over amongst technology leaders. A lot of people I thought I respected are tweeting things like you have to put family second if you want to succeed, or people who don’t work every weekend should be fired (or even apologising to someone if you ask them to work on the weekend is a capitulation), that sort of thing. Unnecessary cruelty around layoffs, to send a message, seems like another. I agree that work isn’t family and that it’s a business first, but recently it seems like causing or experiencing suffering is being seen as a kind of proof of commitment. I don’t think that path ends well.
rejectfinite 4y ago
Not a Meta problem, this is a USA workers rights problem.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  > A software engineer from India says he was fired by Meta 2 days after he moved to Canada for his job
  - rejectfinite 4y ago
    Okay, replace USA with Canada. Same issue.
Ntrails 4y ago
> If you ask someone to move across the world and don't need them anymore, give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews. Or don't recruit internationally. Or, don't relocate [internationally] to a job which can fire you with zero notice or compensation? Don't get me wrong I agree with the sentiment of it being a Dick Move, but the only protection from that is contractual. Saying "please be nice" is not a serious direction to corporate governance.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Your comment is the “dick move” here.
- alxlaz 4y ago
  Alternatively: don't hire internationally if your hiring process can't do it correctly. Personal responsibility is indeed a thing, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse for management incompetence.
coldtea 4y ago
>I'm horrified by so many of the comments here that seem to lack even the most basic of human decency. Allow me to fill people in for those who have never uprooted your life and moved across the world for a job. I think the best time to remind those kind of people of this, is when they get fucked over themselves at some point. Kind of telling them "Just shut up and cope doesn't feel so good when shit happens to you now does it? Nanananana"
- notacoward 4y ago
  > I think the best time to remind those kind of people of this, is when they get fucked over themselves at some point. Alternative POV: that's the worst time. At those moments, the person is unlikely to be very receptive. They'll see it as proof that you are a bitter, vengeful person not worth listening to. Yes, that would a bit hypocritical of them, but that's humanity for you. That hardens people, leading to exactly the kind of cold-hearted comments the original commenter was talking about. Also, you will have foregone an opportunity to show contrast with a better way of being around other people. Lead by example, and all that. I suggest that the best time is a while after such an event, when they have recovered from it but it's still fresh in their memory. While they're feeling good about having received help, that's a good time to remind them that giving help also feels good. I've seen people's attitudes get turned around by that, vs. never by forsaking them in an hour of need.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    Yeah, after the fact might work too. But the fact being painful and an experienced of how bad how they treat others is, I've also seen help, in a "Damn, have I've been such a jerk to others all along?" way. Else many will often brush it off and reboot the "jerk" act when they've recovered. Especially if they feel entitled to the help and compassion shown to them when they're down, and it helps them recover faster and scratch free (and thus makes the falling down less impactful). In that case they end up still not valuing said help and compassion (because for them it was on full and easy supply).
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    Unless it is explicitly pointed out to them before help is given to them that it is help, they usually refuse to recognize it after the fact. I'm not saying that you shouldn't help. But I've seen a lot of people get helped and then immediately deny anyone ever did. Feel free after to make the point that normally such help should be given cheerfully, or different types of help they can pay forward.
pcf 4y ago
Just two things: 1) Remember that a lot of tech people score higher on the autistic spectrum than normal people do. So most likely many of the commentators just don't have the biological wiring for feeling empathy like many others do. This might ease your mind a little. 2) Also remember that Musk would probably have given someone those three months to find other employment, seeing as he gave Twitter employees up to six months. So I don't think he's a good example for this. Use instead... hm... how about Meta?
- coinbasetwwa 4y ago
  The use of supposed mental illness being used to discount any opposing belief is terrifying. Did you ever stop and consider that maybe empathizing in this situation is wrong?
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Elon would definitely behave like this. a perfect example imo. Him being forced by law or PR to give people more time doesn’t show his character or how he is. Elon — the classist, union busting, worker rights abusing (like how he treated lower working class workers during lockdown or how he will randomly fire you while walking around a factory), hyper capitalist. He is definitely okay with this. Can’t imagine him not wanting to do this if he could get away with it.
- distcs 4y ago
  > Remember that a lot of tech people score higher on the autistic spectrum than normal people do. They do? This comes as a surprise to me. It could very well be true but I would like a citation for this. Kind of finding it hard to just accept this for a fact because I have been hanging out with technical folks for a long time and most folks I hang out don't see to be high on the autistic spectrum.
  - hnfong 4y ago
    Selection bias? Presumably those higher on the autistic spectrum prefer to hang out less with people.
brigandish 4y ago
I've had something similar to this happen to me, luckily my visa wasn't dependent on it but it was still a giant kick in the balls.
mlindner 4y ago
> For all you budding Elons, here's a shorthand for it. If you ask someone to move across the world and don't need them anymore, give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews. Or don't recruit internationally. It's amusing that even when the subject is completely unrelated to Elon Musk, people keep finding ways to drag him back into the conversation for some inexplicable reason.
- pas 4y ago
  It's not that inexplicable. Successful people copy other successful people. There's an association in people's mind, both due to the temporal and the thematic closeness of the events. He, his name, his problems/acts/behavior are in the zeitgeist, it's on people's minds, it's not surprising that he gets mentioned frequently.
spamizbad 4y ago
Totally agree. I have no love for FAANG but it seems like there’s a huge amount of tech worker resentment on HN. Whenever layoffs are announced there’s always cheering from some vocal group who is convinced those who got cut are facing some form of cosmic retribution for the perceived wrongdoings of the larger org (eg: censorship, bad product decisions, politics, or laziness). Here’s a case where you can’t project any of those grievances onto this employee because the man literally just started it’s a classic case of a LIFO layoff but people can’t help themselves it seems.
crazygringo 4y ago
I'm not reading the comments here the same way at all, as a "lack of even the most basic of human decency". Rather, I'm seeing it more as just -- that's just life, what makes this particular case so special? People move for jobs all the time (including internationally), and shit happens all the time (you get laid off, your significant other breaks up with you, a loved one passes away). It would be one thing if Facebook was actively tricking him. But we all can assume it was just a normal hiring/transfer process that had been in motion for many months, and company-wide layoffs wound up hitting his team (which couldn't have been known months in advance), and so he was the victim of really bad timing. But not out of malice, and he's still presumably getting months of severance like everyone else, so he can go back to India with money and look for a new job, which he's presumably extremely qualified to do (having been hired by Facebook). And heck, it's usually a lot better to get laid off after 2 days (living in a temporary apartment) than say 4 months (you've bought a house). So is it a bunch of time and effort wasted? Of course. Does it suck? Of course. But people get laid off all the time through no fault of their own, and sometimes the timing is terrible. Which sucks. But does that make it HN front-page worthy? I think it's totally valid to say it's not -- but that doesn't mean you lack "even the most basic of human decency". It just means you don't think this is news. And that's OK.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  specially under the following conditions: "Everyone will get an email soon letting you know what this layoff means for you. After that, every affected employee will have the opportunity to speak with someone to get their questions answered and join information sessions. Some of the details in the US include: Severance. We will pay 16 weeks of base pay plus two additional weeks for every year of service, with no cap. PTO. We’ll pay for all remaining PTO time. RSU vesting. Everyone impacted will receive their November 15, 2022 vesting. Health insurance. We’ll cover the cost of healthcare for people and their families for six months. Career services. We’ll provide three months of career support with an external vendor, including early access to unpublished job leads. Immigration support. I know this is especially difficult if you’re here on a visa. There’s a notice period before termination and some visa grace periods, which means everyone will have time to make plans and work through their immigration status. We have dedicated immigration specialists to help guide you based on what you and your family need. Outside the US, support will be similar, and we’ll follow up soon with separate processes that take into account local employment laws." https://facebook.relayto.com/e/mark-zuckerberg-s-message-to-meta-employees-t72b7xjmexspp https://facebook.relayto.com/e/mark-zuckerberg-s-message-to-...
theknocker 4y ago
ahMath8 4y ago
Yeah I mean we’re all participating in dumping an industrial mess on the future. I’ll take the pearl clutching more sincerely when your calls to “human decency” target your own moral failures that matter. It’s not JUST you treating the planet like an open sewer, but you do it too. Low effort “thoughts and prayers” outputs are not good enough. Oh no; snarky words!!! chucks another plastic bottle/phone/laptop in the garbage
aaomidi 4y ago
Budding elons is the best description of the majority of HN opinions when it comes to people.
Shocka1 4y ago
Don't leave out that this person probably just went through a series of wonderful whiteboard hazing interviews as well.
Tangurena2 4y ago
> you sell the majority of your earthly possessions When I was younger, my father worked in the oil business. Relocation to other states & countries was reasonably common. One of the scariest stories came from their last time in Saudi Arabia (I usually save the "you & your family are being deported in 48 hours" or "oops, your moonshine still burned down your house" stories for drinking time). This family was being relocated back to the US after more than 2 decades working in Saudi Arabia. There was a storm in the Atlantic. A really bad one. The shipping company had to jettison about 100 containers to "save the ship". Everything they owned. Every thing they collected in their adult life went overboard to a watery grave. All they had left was the luggage that they carried on the airflight back to the US. Insurance covered nothing since it was an intentional act by the ship's crew.

hliyan 4y ago

I'm inclined to agree. Giving a neutral, business sounding label to something like this, and normalising it doesn't make it right. As an interaction between two individuals, this would be immediately recognised as morally wrong, even if contractually right. Isn't morality supposed to scale?

MonkeyClub 4y ago
Theoretically it is; practically corporations are implicitly immoral - they’re not human, they have no feelings, it’s only left to whatever (HR in this case) procedures are in place to ensure a positive outcome. Such procedures tend to fail when you move fast and break things.
- feet 4y ago
  No matter which way you try and slice it, there's always a human at the end of the decision. A human made the policies, a human made the layoff decision, a human decides to enforce policy.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    More generally, sticking with the status quo is a moral decision. Just because you feel less guilty because you just followed orders instead of "making a choice", that doesn't make you morally neutral. We like to talk big words about how "evil only exists because good people do nothing" or whatever but when facing the banality of minor evils every day we not only do nothing but shrug our shoulders when others do the same.
  - sigkill 4y ago
    At a certain point, we need to start piercing the corporate veil and hold people accountable.
    - sneak 4y ago
      The term of art “pierce the corporate veil” literally exists because we already do this.
      - feet 4y ago
        Do we, though?
  - spencerchubb 4y ago
    Saying a human is at the end of this decision is like saying a gun is at the end of a decision to shoot. The company is going to do layoffs regardless. If you swap in another CEO for Mark, that's just giving the company a different weapon to do the deed.
    - kiliancs 4y ago
      I'm having trouble accepting this comment is not sarcastic. The fact that most CEOs or boards would behave the same way doesn't make it moral, and the whole point of this specific threat is whether morality can be applied to corporations.
      - spencerchubb 4y ago
- FerociousTimes 4y ago
  I think you might have meant amoral not immoral or you stand by your phrasing?
- andrekandre 4y ago
  > corporations are implicitly immoral i think the word you are looking for is amoral?

erfgh 4y ago

Did they promise him three months on the books if he gets fired?

scott_w 4y ago
> is beyond shitty. Something being legal doesn't make it moral.
mukesh610 4y ago
There's a difference between getting fired and laid off

gsatic 4y ago

Budding Elons are not capable of doing anything else. There are leaders who understand that and keep them on a tight leash, (cuz u can't not use their mindless ambition and over optimizing tendencies or ur competition will) and there are people who call themselves leaders who loose the leash.

kortilla 4y ago

> For all you budding Elons, here's a shorthand for it Pretty solid post barring that non sequitur. This is a post about Meta, which is not controlled by Elon.

danmur 4y ago

Responsible companies will make these situations right even where the law doesn't specifically require it. Hope that's what will happen.

callmeal 4y ago
Well, I'm not sure you can put "responsible company" and "facebook/meta" in the same sentence.

johannes1234321 4y ago

> you sell the majority of your earthly possessions Not only those. You give up being able to easily meet your family, friends, ... your favorite spot for hanging out is gone and you are in a completely different society, with other ways how things are done. And then in this case with just two days in you are probably still in some temporary housing. For staying you need to find a new job, quickly and a new apartment (which is hard without a job and without permanent visa) and when going home you likely will be marked as a loser who couldn't do it.

lakomen 4y ago
And you will get homesick eventually. You will miss the food you usually eat, the places you visit, the feeling you get after e.g. the rain in that special place etc. And the culture of the people or just hearing your home slang, or the smell. Not easy
chx 4y ago
> with other ways how things are done. When I immigrated to Canada, online ordering was not as ubiquitous as it is now. I needed to ask someone in the elevator where to buy a laundry basket. I had no idea. Come to think of, how on earth would you know? They do not give you a "handbook to Canadian living" when you land on an IM-1 visa. Bookkeeper. Lawyer. Handyman. Figure all that out, again, as if those weren't hard enough in the first case. These things are much harder than anyone would reasonably expect. I expected the change of friends, places etc but never occurred to me how hard it'll be to re-learn shopping.
- mab122 4y ago
  Oh but there is! > Living & Working in Canada: A Survival Handbook (Living and Working) https://www.amazon.com/Living-Working-Canada-Survival-Handbook/dp/1901130371 https://www.amazon.com/Living-Working-Canada-Survival-Handbo...
- piva00 4y ago
  When I immigrated to Sweden I jokingly said to my friends "I'm relearning how to be an adult". Taxes, bank accounts, grocery stores, buying alcohol, going to the doctor's, and so and so forth. I had to learn how to do these things again. If one never moved to a very different society there's no way to really empathise how deep these changes go, you uproot everything that was considered your life. The only thing you have left when moving 10000km away for a job is... The job itself.

lynx23 4y ago

So, you advocate that employees from abroad should have some sort of default lay-off protection? Why do you think this is fair?

makeitdouble 4y ago
Would it be fair to you if _all_ employees had a default lay-off protection ? That would be for the best as well.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Once hired, you can never be fired. Great idea! Enjoy companies never hiring anyone because they'll be completely unable to let them go.
- lynx23 4y ago
  Too much protection leads to dismal performance, because people know whatever they do, there are no consequences. I am not a fan of such an approach.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    "Too much protection" doesn't match "whatever they do" to me. On your larger point, looking at countries with pretty strong worker protection, companies still have a flurry of tools to punish or get rid of workers that are way below their expected performance or crossing lines. "We can't fire people" is basically a myth, or what people really mean is "We can't willy nilly fire people like they're cattle". I've seen people fired on the spot after heated discussion with the direction or people let go following a month or two of HR monitoring. The company only needs to do its homework and properly document offenses, follow the processes, or pay the full price if it really wants to get rid of someone with no objective reason.
blitzar 4y ago
Fire the employee who has put in 10 years building the business up for you, has deep internal knowledge, knows their way around the maze of infrastructure instead?

mytailorisrich 4y ago

We understand the predicament and feel for this guy, but so what? This sort of thing happens and there is nothing wrong with a company doing that. There is no need to be overly dramatic or immature. We can just hope that the company will provide a good level of support and that the person will be able to get back on their feet ASAP.

arrrg 4y ago
Why do you think there is nothing wrong with a company doing that? Ethically? Legally?
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Why should there be anything 'wrong' with laying off someone who has just joined, whether they've relocated or not? When companies decide on large re-orgs, whole teams, departments, business unit can go. That's just the way it is. Relocating is no protection against being laid off, be it legally or ethically. Companies can show empathy and that they care by providing support, as said.
  - sethammons 4y ago
    It feels like a bait and switch, which is unethical.
  - oblio 4y ago
    > Relocating is no protection against being laid off, be it legally or ethically. This is not one or the other. Relocating should probably involve a minimum notice period, legally. Especially in this particular case, the company for sure can afford it. They're potentially destroying a person's life (or at least a few years of their life) with something like a 0.0000001% disturbance for the company.
  - bigbillheck 4y ago
    > That's just the way it is. You're making an empirical claim to argue against something normative.

mrtksn 4y ago

IMHO, the libertarian trends of thought are pushing people to think everyone as a trader and abolishment of professions. From that perspective, business is business and the employee should have striken a better deal but from a professionals perspective they are not businessmen - they are professionals and the business is handled by someone else and they join a team where they get compensated for their time(they don't expect to get rich in the job, they expect to have stable career until retirement). When the distinction is not clear, professionals are essentially getting ripped off. If it was clear that everyone is a trader and some trade their coding time, then Meta wouldn't be able to do this because the trader would have put the cancellation terms in the deal. If it was clear that they are professionals and don't with FB but join that company, then it is expected that the law should protect the workers. It's the worst when you ara positioned as a single person trader who doesn't want to be a trader, doesn't have the skills of a trader and trades with a giant trader.

goodpoint 4y ago
We invented regulated employment and worker protections for good reasons.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  I agree. Many professions are essential, as we saw during the pandemic - someone must do those jobs. Yet again, most of those jobs are not suitable to strike it big and retire early because you can't kanban hard enough to retire in your 30s or clean the hospital floors through enough to be set for life. Which means, unless you lust for human misery and collapse of the civilisation the professionals should be protected against exploitation.

athrow 4y ago

> This persons visa is dependent on their employment so now they get to go into a city they don't know and try desperately to find employment with an employer who is interested in sponsoring someone from abroad (which is a small fraction of the total employers). Alternatively they can just return to India? I'd be surprised if they didn't receive reallocation package (16k USD according to teamblind?). I don't expect any employer to go above and beyond their contractual obligations. There is also certain irony here in Meta employees expecting ethical behavior from Meta whilst happily creating and maintaining unethical outcomes for the customers.

geodel 4y ago
> Alternatively they can just return to India? .. Indeed. So many have returned to India in far worse circumstances during 2008 recession. > There is also certain irony here in Meta employees expecting ethical behavior from Meta whilst happily creating and maintaining unethical outcomes for the customers. You are right. I am sorry to say but this outpouring for folks who are in vastly better financial situation is an example of People like Us have more feelings than masses.
caskstrength 4y ago
> I'd be surprised if they didn't receive reallocation package (16k USD according to teamblind?). Are you sure they will be allowed to keep it? Relocation package is usually tied to one year work period in the new location and you have to give it back if you leave earlier than that.
- pas 4y ago
  Good question, but it would be rather unfair to clawback the package when the termination was not due to fault of the employee.

kypro 4y ago

I do agree, but I guess I'm not sure what the solution is here? Large layoffs in large orgs are generally done at a team level rather than an individual level. So presumably this individual's entire team no longer exists. So out of respect for them relocating do you then try to reposition them in the company somehow? And what about all the people who didn't relocate but may have recently left stable job for an opportunity at Meta? Do they not matter or should they also be repositioned out of respect? And what about those who have personal reasons that make the layoff extra difficult? For example, those who might have just had a new born or who have family members in hospital? Do their personal situations not also matter? And for how long would these individuals be safe if you do make an exception? Do you keep them for 3 months just to be nice then proceed with the layoff anyway? I'm not sure that's much better... I think maybe the best thing to do here is just to give good severance packages? I don't think I'm being heartless. I'm sat here thinking both, "man this is awful" while also having no idea what the right answer is. You can argue layoffs suck more for certain people and those people should be protected, but for a larger org needing to do mass-layoffs it seems almost impossible to make those kinds of assessments on an individual level in a way that is fair. You'd inevitably just end up protecting certain types of crappy situations (recently located) over other types of crappy situations (family member just died). Just thinking out loud... Maybe I'm missing something here.

Msurrow 4y ago
The solution is right there in OPs post: “give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews.” Thats it. HR knows who is working on visa. Inform them of the situation, give them 3 months, take away all their accesses and let them spend the 3 months to look for a new job. Meta makes a bazillion USD pr year. Even if they had to pay 1000 workers on visa for 3 months it wont make a dent in their profits. For the employee that just relocated, on the other hand, this makes all the difference in the world. Corporate greed is disgusting when its put above Human decency like this.
- murderfs 4y ago
  Isn't this literally what's happening? (Except it's 4 months, not 3?)

vintagedave 4y ago

> so many of the comments here that seem to lack even the most basic of human decency Reading them, so am I. There is no sign of empathy: that understanding of another individual, the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes, that is fundamental to a healthy society and (IMO) personal integrity. I read a comment a few years ago that no-one thinks of themselves as a bad person. To yourself, you are always okay. Yet lacking as you phrase it 'human decency', or for me, 'empathy', as so clearly illustrated in those harsh, inhuman, uncaring, comments that show no concern nor understanding of the person, the human, the feeling caring uprooted emotion-bearing trouble-striving human at the center of this... I don't know. I feel like quite a few people in this post need to question themselves.

imperfect_blue 4y ago
- coldtea 4y ago
  >You yourself have no empathy for those who would make those supposedly "harsh, inhuman, uncaring, comments" That's fine. You don't have to go down infinite meta-levels of empathy. You can just treat nazis like scum, and jerks like jerks. As long as you treat other people well and with compassion, you would still be behaving far better and more positively than how those who would make those supposedly "harsh, inhuman, uncaring, comments" are.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > As long as you treat other people well and with compassion And you just choose who you consider "people" and who you consider "scum". It's like that old joke about Linux being user-friendly, it's just very picky about who it considers a user. That position is shit, though.
    - coldtea 4y ago
      >And you just choose who you consider "people" and who you consider "scum". Yes. That's necessary too. Did you rather treat everybody as an undifferentiated fog? Compassion is not about bending over backwards for jerks. >It's like that old joke about Linux being user-friendly, it's just very picky about who it considers a user. Even that is very defensible: you can be user-friendly for different groups with different needs - and this often does not translate to being user-friendly to everybody. E.g. if you try to please admins, and developers, and power users, and professionals, you won't also be user friendly in the sense that an OS focused on consumers or a program aimed at children is. What a professional designer considers must-have and user-friendly features (to him as a user) and what someone who just shot a couple of holiday photos and wants to resize them considers user frienly, is not the same thing...

newsclues 4y ago

Why call out Elon when this situation was Zuckerberg?

svet_0 4y ago
Elon hate is strong on this site
- newsclues 4y ago
  It’s like the Trump hate, irrational and all encompassing.
  - FieryTransition 4y ago
    Why do you think the trump hate is irrational? What is the main rational points and reasons you like Trump? Or at least, think that he is being unfairly treated, since that does not require liking/agreeing with him.
    - chiefalchemist 4y ago
      Fwiw I understand why people despise Don. But I don't understand the blind dedication to hate, especially when other politicians and leaders pull similar shenanigans and then there's crickets. If you're violently against X or Y that's fine. But apply the rules evenly, fairly, and rationally. When you hate so hard and so long that you lose your compass...that's irrational. The majority of Trump haters fall into this bucket.
      - sofixa 4y ago
        > But I don't understand the blind dedication to hate, especially when other politicians and leaders pull similar shenanigans and then there's crickets Do feel free to share examples of other politicians mocking disabled people, or bragging about sexual assault, or trying a coup or any of the millions of transgressions of trump and not facing any criticism.

lzooz 4y ago

ako 4y ago
But without a job he maybe forced to move back.
saddist0 4y ago
First of all, he isn't "living" but on a timer against VISA expiration. I also think that you are under-estimating the luxurious and easy lifestyle which one can enjoy while living in India. (and what he tried to give up for migrating) I know some of the top talents who decided to never migrate, because of better helping hands, supporting community and families, easy cabs/transportation to easy payments. And it is just improving over time...

fredgrott 4y ago

I think I speak for the whole HN community in that it's not the code or the visual design; it's instead can we find the value of the community and re-tell and value those community values that makes startup people successful. Meta firing people is not the problem in of itself, but the methods used to do it is somewhat destroying the impression that they value what they have hoisted up to everyone; namely the degree of connectiveness and that community of connectiveness. A better way would be for Mark Z to sell some of his stock holdings and offer dis-engagement bonuses for people to leave. This is also highlights the incentives bias you have to avoid, in this case the ads-revenue incentive bias.

coinbasetwwa 4y ago

pas 4y ago
hm, could you spell it out for the slower ones? :) I don't get what do you mean by preventative medicine?

Aeolun 4y ago

This very much depends on the person. When I moved abroad when I was 23 I did so with nothing more than the backpack I brought along. If they’d let me go two days later I would have bought a ticket home and returned to my previous job. If I did the same thing now, I would have to sell my house, somehow ship all my posessions to the other country without inconveniencing my wife and child, etc. I’d have to be damn certain my job wouldn’t disappear a day after I arrive. In other words, I could _never_ move to the US.

yodsanklai 4y ago
> When I moved abroad when I was 23 I did so with nothing more than the backpack I brought along. That was my experience. I moved to the US, stayed in a hostel for a month, it seems very normal. At that age, you're also more likely to be able to rely on your parents if things go wrong. 20 years later, I relocated again. This was a different story. Even without a family, it was a much bigger commitment. Over the years, we accumulate goods, friends, job security, we start to worry about saving for retirement and want to avoid mistakes.

londons_explore 4y ago

Simple solution: Only agree to relocate if your contract guarantees you employment for at least X months... Or a termination payment of Y dollars if employment lasts less than X months. Anyone who moves across the world for an employer without getting a term like that in writing simply is naive - and we shouldn't offer them sympathy after the fact. It's like someone having their house flooded when they deliberately decided not to get flood insurance... Like, you knew the risk you were taking on...

oblio 4y ago
Have you tried that? Has it ever worked? How many people do you know that have done that? 1%? 5%? 10%? What you're saying is fantasy land except for executives.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  If enough engineers started demanding it, it wouldn't be fantasy land... I have negotiated changes to my employment contract at every job I've ever worked, big and small companies, so it is very possible. Usually just crossing out a clause or editing a number is pretty straightforward and doesn't require approvals too high up the management chain.

bombolo 4y ago

I had a coworker in a similar situation. He had just immigrated with his family from Asia for a job, and soon after the startup we were at fired everyone and shut down. I took it easy before finding a job but he had to literally accept the 1st offer he got (which was bad) or he would have probably needed to move back.

pas 4y ago
Isn't there at least a few months trial period in these cases? :o Or this was after that?
- bombolo 4y ago
  Before the trial period… but so what? If the company is no longer there…

throwaway1207 4y ago

as someone on visa and survived the layoffs and who internally inquired on how the layoff logistics worked for employees on work visas. The answer is, the layoff is only effective 8 weeks from nov 9 , so something like Jan 10th, after which the countdown to find the new job begins (60 days for US, not sure about canadian work visa) So its not as bad as it sounds or portrayed by parent comment.

erlich 4y ago

This is crazy entitlement. Three months salary in a tech job is more than most people make in a year. If you are moving overseas, maybe wait before selling all your stuff until you pass probation. This idea that you should be guaranteed three months is so backwards. You are on trial. Tell me anyone’s advice that goes “we should fire slow, hire fast”.

oblio 4y ago
Ok, let's ignore the selling stuff. Your partner also quits their good job. That good job might not be available if you come back, congratulations, you're back at years of job hunting and job hopping to be where you were years before. In the new country maybe this was not a concern and the other partner who was just laid off had a great salary to cover. Your kids leave their good school. Now that school no longer accepts applicants and you're stuck with whatever you can find on a short notice. This list is far from comprehensive.
- deskamess 4y ago
  Exactly... these are mental costs that many of us who have done the move understand and feel deeply as it has been experienced. For everyone else, we rely on their ability to empathize. Empathy, compassion, and life experiences make it easier to understand people.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > Your partner also quits their good job. So you're going "all in", hoping for a giant reward (aka to make more in a year than the average Indian makes in their lifetime). It doesn't work out. That's part of the risk of going all in. Or you don't go all in, you don't move your family immediately, and you have a much lower risk for the cost of paying for a flat in Canada and one in India for a few months until everything has settled and you're confident enough.
  - bilvar 4y ago
    Exactly, why do we keep absolving people from their personal decisions, expecting society to take the hit from the personal risks they take is beyond me. Like nobody wants to plan for their best-case scenario not materialising and when it doesn't it's the fault of everybody else that they find themselves in that situation.

bearmode 4y ago

HN is absolutely full of uncaring libertarian techbros, the comments are exactly what I've come to expect.

geodel 4y ago

hnfong 4y ago
> in-demand , well paid professions. Competing for jobs with 10k+ people who are more qualified than you during industry-wide hiring freezes must be fun.

bboygravity 4y ago

That was a pretty strong post until Elon got dragged into it.

negamax 4y ago

As someone who immigrated to West. I was initially shocked by people's attitude. At times I was outright told that you are * Filling diversity quota * Cheaper * Economic migrant The worst part about this is that I was working doubly hard, paying insane taxes while paying insane rents. But eventually I realized people saying these things are just looking for their psychological safety. Of course such people are a minority and usually from lower rungs of society. When they see foreigners coming over and living a better life, they come up with abstracts and conspiracy theories. Sad to see such people filtering onto HN. This place has always been forward looking, so far.

deskamess 4y ago
When times get tough and everyone is on the block, people who are not necessarily from the 'lower rungs' show their true colors. It becomes them over you and they will resort to code-words or sometimes, as in my case, plain out point out my immigration status in 2-3 standup meetings (once the rumor mill of layoffs got started). This person was an 'upper-rung' sort of chap too; after all, they got their degree from a Christian college/university in South Carolina (or was it North Carolina? - one of the Carolinas). Compassion, empathy and all that must have come as second nature. But not their first.
relaxing 4y ago
> This place has always been forward looking, so far. You must not wade into the political topics very often.
Shocka1 4y ago
This is bizarre to me that people would actually say this to you. Anecdotally, I've worked for some pretty well known tech companies and have never heard anyone talk this way openly. I never worked in Silicon Valley or SF, but these corporations I worked for regularly hired Indian and Eastern European developers because they were great developers... Some of my best mentors immigrated from these areas. If you are hearing this kind of talk regularly, I think it's time to change who you work with as this doesn't seem right or normal to me.

z9znz 4y ago

> where you sell the majority of your earthly possessions, property, cars, etc. I think this bit is actually a good thing. The rest of the story is indeed unfortunate, but having to eliminate possessions is probably more positive in life than negative. We tend to accumulate so much, and then our stuff becomes an invisible burden.

samatman 4y ago

Solution is simple: Don't work for Facebook. Facebook is evil. When bad things happen to elite people who choose evil, sympathy is misplaced.

dvngnt_ 4y ago
bad advice as this is their first layoff ever. so historically they were a safe job there was no way he could tell he would be laid off ahead of time
- cduzz 4y ago
  Meta is a company who's product is people sausage. Don't be surprised if they view the people who work at the sausage factory with the same regard they the people who are ground up and fed to advertisers. Whatever they do to people who are weaker than you they'll do to you next. Or something like that.

synu 4y ago

I am not sure where it is coming from exactly. I’ve been around for other major downturns, this is the first I recall at least where there’s almost like a “What Would Ebenezer Scrooge Do” mentality that has taken over amongst technology leaders. A lot of people I thought I respected are tweeting things like you have to put family second if you want to succeed, or people who don’t work every weekend should be fired (or even apologising to someone if you ask them to work on the weekend is a capitulation), that sort of thing. Unnecessary cruelty around layoffs, to send a message, seems like another. I agree that work isn’t family and that it’s a business first, but recently it seems like causing or experiencing suffering is being seen as a kind of proof of commitment. I don’t think that path ends well.

rejectfinite 4y ago

Not a Meta problem, this is a USA workers rights problem.

_gabe_ 4y ago
> A software engineer from India says he was fired by Meta 2 days after he moved to Canada for his job
- rejectfinite 4y ago
  Okay, replace USA with Canada. Same issue.

Ntrails 4y ago

> If you ask someone to move across the world and don't need them anymore, give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews. Or don't recruit internationally. Or, don't relocate [internationally] to a job which can fire you with zero notice or compensation? Don't get me wrong I agree with the sentiment of it being a Dick Move, but the only protection from that is contractual. Saying "please be nice" is not a serious direction to corporate governance.

notyourwork 4y ago
Your comment is the “dick move” here.
alxlaz 4y ago
Alternatively: don't hire internationally if your hiring process can't do it correctly. Personal responsibility is indeed a thing, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse for management incompetence.

coldtea 4y ago

>I'm horrified by so many of the comments here that seem to lack even the most basic of human decency. Allow me to fill people in for those who have never uprooted your life and moved across the world for a job. I think the best time to remind those kind of people of this, is when they get fucked over themselves at some point. Kind of telling them "Just shut up and cope doesn't feel so good when shit happens to you now does it? Nanananana"

notacoward 4y ago
> I think the best time to remind those kind of people of this, is when they get fucked over themselves at some point. Alternative POV: that's the worst time. At those moments, the person is unlikely to be very receptive. They'll see it as proof that you are a bitter, vengeful person not worth listening to. Yes, that would a bit hypocritical of them, but that's humanity for you. That hardens people, leading to exactly the kind of cold-hearted comments the original commenter was talking about. Also, you will have foregone an opportunity to show contrast with a better way of being around other people. Lead by example, and all that. I suggest that the best time is a while after such an event, when they have recovered from it but it's still fresh in their memory. While they're feeling good about having received help, that's a good time to remind them that giving help also feels good. I've seen people's attitudes get turned around by that, vs. never by forsaking them in an hour of need.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Yeah, after the fact might work too. But the fact being painful and an experienced of how bad how they treat others is, I've also seen help, in a "Damn, have I've been such a jerk to others all along?" way. Else many will often brush it off and reboot the "jerk" act when they've recovered. Especially if they feel entitled to the help and compassion shown to them when they're down, and it helps them recover faster and scratch free (and thus makes the falling down less impactful). In that case they end up still not valuing said help and compassion (because for them it was on full and easy supply).
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Unless it is explicitly pointed out to them before help is given to them that it is help, they usually refuse to recognize it after the fact. I'm not saying that you shouldn't help. But I've seen a lot of people get helped and then immediately deny anyone ever did. Feel free after to make the point that normally such help should be given cheerfully, or different types of help they can pay forward.

pcf 4y ago

Just two things: 1) Remember that a lot of tech people score higher on the autistic spectrum than normal people do. So most likely many of the commentators just don't have the biological wiring for feeling empathy like many others do. This might ease your mind a little. 2) Also remember that Musk would probably have given someone those three months to find other employment, seeing as he gave Twitter employees up to six months. So I don't think he's a good example for this. Use instead... hm... how about Meta?

coinbasetwwa 4y ago
The use of supposed mental illness being used to discount any opposing belief is terrifying. Did you ever stop and consider that maybe empathizing in this situation is wrong?
skinnymuch 4y ago
Elon would definitely behave like this. a perfect example imo. Him being forced by law or PR to give people more time doesn’t show his character or how he is. Elon — the classist, union busting, worker rights abusing (like how he treated lower working class workers during lockdown or how he will randomly fire you while walking around a factory), hyper capitalist. He is definitely okay with this. Can’t imagine him not wanting to do this if he could get away with it.
distcs 4y ago
> Remember that a lot of tech people score higher on the autistic spectrum than normal people do. They do? This comes as a surprise to me. It could very well be true but I would like a citation for this. Kind of finding it hard to just accept this for a fact because I have been hanging out with technical folks for a long time and most folks I hang out don't see to be high on the autistic spectrum.
- hnfong 4y ago
  Selection bias? Presumably those higher on the autistic spectrum prefer to hang out less with people.

brigandish 4y ago

I've had something similar to this happen to me, luckily my visa wasn't dependent on it but it was still a giant kick in the balls.

mlindner 4y ago

> For all you budding Elons, here's a shorthand for it. If you ask someone to move across the world and don't need them anymore, give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews. Or don't recruit internationally. It's amusing that even when the subject is completely unrelated to Elon Musk, people keep finding ways to drag him back into the conversation for some inexplicable reason.

pas 4y ago
It's not that inexplicable. Successful people copy other successful people. There's an association in people's mind, both due to the temporal and the thematic closeness of the events. He, his name, his problems/acts/behavior are in the zeitgeist, it's on people's minds, it's not surprising that he gets mentioned frequently.

spamizbad 4y ago

Totally agree. I have no love for FAANG but it seems like there’s a huge amount of tech worker resentment on HN. Whenever layoffs are announced there’s always cheering from some vocal group who is convinced those who got cut are facing some form of cosmic retribution for the perceived wrongdoings of the larger org (eg: censorship, bad product decisions, politics, or laziness). Here’s a case where you can’t project any of those grievances onto this employee because the man literally just started it’s a classic case of a LIFO layoff but people can’t help themselves it seems.

crazygringo 4y ago

I'm not reading the comments here the same way at all, as a "lack of even the most basic of human decency". Rather, I'm seeing it more as just -- that's just life, what makes this particular case so special? People move for jobs all the time (including internationally), and shit happens all the time (you get laid off, your significant other breaks up with you, a loved one passes away). It would be one thing if Facebook was actively tricking him. But we all can assume it was just a normal hiring/transfer process that had been in motion for many months, and company-wide layoffs wound up hitting his team (which couldn't have been known months in advance), and so he was the victim of really bad timing. But not out of malice, and he's still presumably getting months of severance like everyone else, so he can go back to India with money and look for a new job, which he's presumably extremely qualified to do (having been hired by Facebook). And heck, it's usually a lot better to get laid off after 2 days (living in a temporary apartment) than say 4 months (you've bought a house). So is it a bunch of time and effort wasted? Of course. Does it suck? Of course. But people get laid off all the time through no fault of their own, and sometimes the timing is terrible. Which sucks. But does that make it HN front-page worthy? I think it's totally valid to say it's not -- but that doesn't mean you lack "even the most basic of human decency". It just means you don't think this is news. And that's OK.

pelasaco 4y ago
specially under the following conditions: "Everyone will get an email soon letting you know what this layoff means for you. After that, every affected employee will have the opportunity to speak with someone to get their questions answered and join information sessions. Some of the details in the US include: Severance. We will pay 16 weeks of base pay plus two additional weeks for every year of service, with no cap. PTO. We’ll pay for all remaining PTO time. RSU vesting. Everyone impacted will receive their November 15, 2022 vesting. Health insurance. We’ll cover the cost of healthcare for people and their families for six months. Career services. We’ll provide three months of career support with an external vendor, including early access to unpublished job leads. Immigration support. I know this is especially difficult if you’re here on a visa. There’s a notice period before termination and some visa grace periods, which means everyone will have time to make plans and work through their immigration status. We have dedicated immigration specialists to help guide you based on what you and your family need. Outside the US, support will be similar, and we’ll follow up soon with separate processes that take into account local employment laws." https://facebook.relayto.com/e/mark-zuckerberg-s-message-to-meta-employees-t72b7xjmexspp https://facebook.relayto.com/e/mark-zuckerberg-s-message-to-...

theknocker 4y ago

ahMath8 4y ago

Yeah I mean we’re all participating in dumping an industrial mess on the future. I’ll take the pearl clutching more sincerely when your calls to “human decency” target your own moral failures that matter. It’s not JUST you treating the planet like an open sewer, but you do it too. Low effort “thoughts and prayers” outputs are not good enough. Oh no; snarky words!!! chucks another plastic bottle/phone/laptop in the garbage

aaomidi 4y ago

Budding elons is the best description of the majority of HN opinions when it comes to people.

Shocka1 4y ago

Don't leave out that this person probably just went through a series of wonderful whiteboard hazing interviews as well.

Tangurena2 4y ago

> you sell the majority of your earthly possessions When I was younger, my father worked in the oil business. Relocation to other states & countries was reasonably common. One of the scariest stories came from their last time in Saudi Arabia (I usually save the "you & your family are being deported in 48 hours" or "oops, your moonshine still burned down your house" stories for drinking time). This family was being relocated back to the US after more than 2 decades working in Saudi Arabia. There was a storm in the Atlantic. A really bad one. The shipping company had to jettison about 100 containers to "save the ship". Everything they owned. Every thing they collected in their adult life went overboard to a watery grave. All they had left was the luggage that they carried on the airflight back to the US. Insurance covered nothing since it was an intentional act by the ship's crew.