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You assume people want a change. I do not think they do. Do people want an end to gender specific toys? Certainly some do. But the vast majority do not. I fir

You assume people want a change. I do not think they do. Do people want an end to gender specific toys? Certainly some do. But the vast majority do not. I firmly believe, through interacting with people in general, and my own children, that female and male brains are completely different. They are hard wired to like different things, and behave differently. I don't see anything wrong with that, and don't see any reason to pretend there aren't those differences.

pbreit 15y ago
I was referring to the broader argument, not just the gender aspect. And, yes, I think people do want change. This is proven by the success of Apple and Pixar who both reject a lot of commercial demands.
- maximusprime 15y ago
  Lego Star wars is MASSIVE. It sells by the boat load. Kids lap it up. Same with the other movie tie ins. Why would it not? I play Lego star wars the game, and obviously I now want all the characters in real Lego. Doing movie/character tie ins, gives customers what they want. I was pretty excited to see http://www.legosuperheroes.com/ http://www.legosuperheroes.com/ (Lego are making a new superhero range in January). And for people who don't want the movie tie ins, there are still tons of generic building sets you can buy.
  - pbreit 15y ago
    Here's the main quote from the post I replied to: "why doesn't Lego sell to girls? Why doesn't Barbie have more realistic features? Why don't car manufacturers offer an electric vehicle? Why doesn't McDonalds sell salads instead of fries? Why do record labels offer such crappy music?" It references gender once and movie tie-ins not at all. I actually think movie tie-ins are pretty reasonable especially from one of the best movies ever made (Star Wars, not the pre-quels) as well as some of the best animated story-telling and characters ever made (Pixar).
sunahsuh 15y ago
I take massive issue with this. We start the training with regard to gender so early that it's hard to tell what's "nature" and what's "nurture". I'm watching the choices my sister makes during her pregnancy with fascination. Gender is the earliest thing we bombard them with -- painting rooms pink, buying gendered clothes, choosing certain toys.. we don't even thinking about it because it's so normal until, for instance, you make a conscious effort to try and raise your child in a gender neutral environment.
- fennecfoxen 15y ago
  So here's a news story about twin boys, one of whom decided he'd rather be a girl. Pretty much essentially the same "nurture". Still want to blame society when the girl decides she wants to wear pretty dresses? I think that's a hard sell. http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/12/11/led-child-who-simply-knew/SsH1U9Pn9JKArTiumZdxaL/story.html?s_campaign=sm_fb%3Fs_campaign%3Dsm_fb http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/12/11/led-child-who-si...
  - sunahsuh 15y ago
    They're identical twins. So, same "nature" too. So what does this story tell us?
  - wanorris 15y ago
    Given that they're identical twins, I think it's also pretty clear that this case undercuts the argument that it's all just genetics as well. Oh, and "decided he'd rather be a girl" is generally considered offensive to trans people. She believes that she's always been a girl, and did not "decide" anything of the kind. Her physical characteristics were simply misleading regarding her true gender.
    - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
      >"is generally considered offensive to trans people" Isn't that just being delusional. If I decide that I should have been born as superman, does that mean you now all have to refer to me as the Man of Steel and ignore the fact that I wasn't born with the organs (X-ray eyes, etc.) that would make it possible for me to be said person. Except in cases of genetic sex indeterminacy a person is born either male or female regardless of what they think they should have been or currently want to be. You're welcome to adopt your own self-vision but imposing unreality on others is beyond reasonable expectations of society.
wanorris 15y ago
And yet there are plenty of kids who are gender atypical, sometimes in a few ways, sometimes in many ways, sometimes such that they identify with the opposite gender. The reality is not that there are hard categories of things that we can simply say a person's brain is "hard wired" to be either A or B, but that there are clusters and statistical probabilities. Some people are one or more standard deviations removed from what we think of as "gender typical." There's definitely an element of truth to the "hard wiring" thing -- you can't change a child's personality and enthusiasms simply by wishing it so or trying to "train" them. But the picture is far more complicated than you seem to think.
- einhverfr 15y ago
  I am not sure that "gender" (as opposed to 'sex') is a biological state, though. Gender-atypicality may have a lot to do with navigating between social ideals of normality and a need of individuality.
lambda 15y ago
> hard wired I keep on hearing those words with respect to brains. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. Brains are not "hard wired" for much. They are really quite malleable and adaptable. They are affected by many things in the environment; experience, culture, training. The biggest differences between male and female children will come about from how they are raised, not innate differences. Once they hit puberty the hormonal differences will have more of an effect, though nothing that could be described as "hard wired", it's more a question of predisposition.
- maximusprime 15y ago
  You state these things as if they are fact. I disagree. People are born with different strengths and weaknesses. They may have particular skill in certain areas. If brains are just "general" "maleable" "matter", then why as a man am I attracted to women and not men? I certainly didn't "learn" that. I'm attracted to women, because my brain was hard wired like that. So you don't think people are "born gay"?
  - einhverfr 15y ago
    I actually don't think people are born gay or born straight. I think there are biological factors in sexual orientation but these are hardly determinative. Instead most people are born somewhere along the bisexuality spectrum and end up defining themselves as gay or straight as a way of dealing with unacceptable sexual urges. The fact is that if you look at male-male sexual relations in a place like Greece or Rome, the differences in structure and approach to gender and sex are markedly in contrast to how we approach things in our society today. I personally think that one element of the argument that people are born gay, in the context of a culture which aggressively sells the idea that heterosexuality is normal, is to tell people, "you aren't born gay, are you?" Edit: I could point people to longer write-ups I have done on this subject but the above I think is a fair summary of what cross-study and trans-historical comparisons have lead me to believe.
  - lambda 15y ago
    Sure, different people will have different strengths and weaknesses. But that's different than "hard-wired." You may have some natural talent or predisposition, or you may have some particular disability or difficulty with something. But most of those can be melded and shaped by your environment, your culture, your experiences, your hormones, practice and learning, your desires, and the like. I've known several people who have transitioned between genders. Were they "hard-wired" the way you claim they are? One of them, who transitioned to being a man, took testosterone as part of the transition (and presumably still does). He reports that the testosterone was significant in changing some of his behaviors to being more masculine; when upset, he has a harder time crying than he did before. Now, is that what you would call "hard-wired"? I don't pretend to know whether you are born gay, or if it's something environmental during your childhood, or whether it really is more flexible than some people like to admit. Surely there is a predisposition to be attracted to the opposite sex; but that doesn't meet the criteria I would use for "hard-wired." "Hard-wired" says that something is absolute; immutable. It cannot be changed. There is a binary; you are either this way, or you are that way. And that's just not how people work; at least, behaviorally, for the vast majority of behaviors. Really, there are multitudes of different axes on which people's behavior differs; and while their sex might influence their behavior a bit, the results tend to be overlapping bell curves with slightly different averages, not two entirely different sets of behaviors. The whole "women do this, men do that" or "hard wired" type of reasoning is an over-simplification, which is amplified culturally. (sorry for the late followup, I didn't see this comment until just now)
chernevik 15y ago
Well, yeah. But it's no excuse for some witless profit-maximizing / revenue-stabilizing Danish corporate drone to subsume all nuance into Boy and Girl.
- maximusprime 15y ago
  Lego, create things that sell. They give the public what they want. You just have a different idea of what the public want, than the public do. You have to understand you're a minority.

pbreit 15y ago

I was referring to the broader argument, not just the gender aspect. And, yes, I think people do want change. This is proven by the success of Apple and Pixar who both reject a lot of commercial demands.

maximusprime 15y ago
Lego Star wars is MASSIVE. It sells by the boat load. Kids lap it up. Same with the other movie tie ins. Why would it not? I play Lego star wars the game, and obviously I now want all the characters in real Lego. Doing movie/character tie ins, gives customers what they want. I was pretty excited to see http://www.legosuperheroes.com/ http://www.legosuperheroes.com/ (Lego are making a new superhero range in January). And for people who don't want the movie tie ins, there are still tons of generic building sets you can buy.
- pbreit 15y ago
  Here's the main quote from the post I replied to: "why doesn't Lego sell to girls? Why doesn't Barbie have more realistic features? Why don't car manufacturers offer an electric vehicle? Why doesn't McDonalds sell salads instead of fries? Why do record labels offer such crappy music?" It references gender once and movie tie-ins not at all. I actually think movie tie-ins are pretty reasonable especially from one of the best movies ever made (Star Wars, not the pre-quels) as well as some of the best animated story-telling and characters ever made (Pixar).

sunahsuh 15y ago

I take massive issue with this. We start the training with regard to gender so early that it's hard to tell what's "nature" and what's "nurture". I'm watching the choices my sister makes during her pregnancy with fascination. Gender is the earliest thing we bombard them with -- painting rooms pink, buying gendered clothes, choosing certain toys.. we don't even thinking about it because it's so normal until, for instance, you make a conscious effort to try and raise your child in a gender neutral environment.

fennecfoxen 15y ago
So here's a news story about twin boys, one of whom decided he'd rather be a girl. Pretty much essentially the same "nurture". Still want to blame society when the girl decides she wants to wear pretty dresses? I think that's a hard sell. http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/12/11/led-child-who-simply-knew/SsH1U9Pn9JKArTiumZdxaL/story.html?s_campaign=sm_fb%3Fs_campaign%3Dsm_fb http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/12/11/led-child-who-si...
- sunahsuh 15y ago
  They're identical twins. So, same "nature" too. So what does this story tell us?
- wanorris 15y ago
  Given that they're identical twins, I think it's also pretty clear that this case undercuts the argument that it's all just genetics as well. Oh, and "decided he'd rather be a girl" is generally considered offensive to trans people. She believes that she's always been a girl, and did not "decide" anything of the kind. Her physical characteristics were simply misleading regarding her true gender.
  - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
    >"is generally considered offensive to trans people" Isn't that just being delusional. If I decide that I should have been born as superman, does that mean you now all have to refer to me as the Man of Steel and ignore the fact that I wasn't born with the organs (X-ray eyes, etc.) that would make it possible for me to be said person. Except in cases of genetic sex indeterminacy a person is born either male or female regardless of what they think they should have been or currently want to be. You're welcome to adopt your own self-vision but imposing unreality on others is beyond reasonable expectations of society.

wanorris 15y ago

And yet there are plenty of kids who are gender atypical, sometimes in a few ways, sometimes in many ways, sometimes such that they identify with the opposite gender. The reality is not that there are hard categories of things that we can simply say a person's brain is "hard wired" to be either A or B, but that there are clusters and statistical probabilities. Some people are one or more standard deviations removed from what we think of as "gender typical." There's definitely an element of truth to the "hard wiring" thing -- you can't change a child's personality and enthusiasms simply by wishing it so or trying to "train" them. But the picture is far more complicated than you seem to think.

einhverfr 15y ago
I am not sure that "gender" (as opposed to 'sex') is a biological state, though. Gender-atypicality may have a lot to do with navigating between social ideals of normality and a need of individuality.

lambda 15y ago

> hard wired I keep on hearing those words with respect to brains. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. Brains are not "hard wired" for much. They are really quite malleable and adaptable. They are affected by many things in the environment; experience, culture, training. The biggest differences between male and female children will come about from how they are raised, not innate differences. Once they hit puberty the hormonal differences will have more of an effect, though nothing that could be described as "hard wired", it's more a question of predisposition.

maximusprime 15y ago
You state these things as if they are fact. I disagree. People are born with different strengths and weaknesses. They may have particular skill in certain areas. If brains are just "general" "maleable" "matter", then why as a man am I attracted to women and not men? I certainly didn't "learn" that. I'm attracted to women, because my brain was hard wired like that. So you don't think people are "born gay"?
- einhverfr 15y ago
  I actually don't think people are born gay or born straight. I think there are biological factors in sexual orientation but these are hardly determinative. Instead most people are born somewhere along the bisexuality spectrum and end up defining themselves as gay or straight as a way of dealing with unacceptable sexual urges. The fact is that if you look at male-male sexual relations in a place like Greece or Rome, the differences in structure and approach to gender and sex are markedly in contrast to how we approach things in our society today. I personally think that one element of the argument that people are born gay, in the context of a culture which aggressively sells the idea that heterosexuality is normal, is to tell people, "you aren't born gay, are you?" Edit: I could point people to longer write-ups I have done on this subject but the above I think is a fair summary of what cross-study and trans-historical comparisons have lead me to believe.
- lambda 15y ago
  Sure, different people will have different strengths and weaknesses. But that's different than "hard-wired." You may have some natural talent or predisposition, or you may have some particular disability or difficulty with something. But most of those can be melded and shaped by your environment, your culture, your experiences, your hormones, practice and learning, your desires, and the like. I've known several people who have transitioned between genders. Were they "hard-wired" the way you claim they are? One of them, who transitioned to being a man, took testosterone as part of the transition (and presumably still does). He reports that the testosterone was significant in changing some of his behaviors to being more masculine; when upset, he has a harder time crying than he did before. Now, is that what you would call "hard-wired"? I don't pretend to know whether you are born gay, or if it's something environmental during your childhood, or whether it really is more flexible than some people like to admit. Surely there is a predisposition to be attracted to the opposite sex; but that doesn't meet the criteria I would use for "hard-wired." "Hard-wired" says that something is absolute; immutable. It cannot be changed. There is a binary; you are either this way, or you are that way. And that's just not how people work; at least, behaviorally, for the vast majority of behaviors. Really, there are multitudes of different axes on which people's behavior differs; and while their sex might influence their behavior a bit, the results tend to be overlapping bell curves with slightly different averages, not two entirely different sets of behaviors. The whole "women do this, men do that" or "hard wired" type of reasoning is an over-simplification, which is amplified culturally. (sorry for the late followup, I didn't see this comment until just now)

chernevik 15y ago

Well, yeah. But it's no excuse for some witless profit-maximizing / revenue-stabilizing Danish corporate drone to subsume all nuance into Boy and Girl.

maximusprime 15y ago
Lego, create things that sell. They give the public what they want. You just have a different idea of what the public want, than the public do. You have to understand you're a minority.