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I got a Ph.D. in computer science a long time ago, and I think it was the worst mistake of my life. 6 years wasted, for no obvious benefit. I don't know why I d

I got a Ph.D. in computer science a long time ago, and I think it was the worst mistake of my life. 6 years wasted, for no obvious benefit. I don't know why I did it, other than wanting to learn more computer science stuff. And I think I could have learned a lot more by just working in the industry.

mjfl 4y ago
why do you consider it wasted? spending 6 years learning some cool stuff seems like a good life to me.
- saboot 4y ago
  It's not en entire benefit, that six years could have been spent making a salary, saving up retirement, starting a family, etc. It's pretty disheartening watching your peers while in graduate school
- rdtwo 4y ago
  He’s probably out a good mil in opportunity cost maybe more over a life time
  - mjfl 4y ago
    and with that mil he could retire early and spend time studying cool stuff, exactly as he was doing in graduate school. To some, phd is skipping the line to doing stuff they want to do.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I think every high schooler should be taught how to project cash flow and figure out quality of life based on various scenarios. There is so much pay and expense data available now, there is little reason these kinds of opportunity costs should be a surprise.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      This is half the battle. The other half is getting in front of folks at that age, versus them not learning these lessons, painfully, until midlife. Lots of apathy and intentional malevolence creating friction in this regard. Knowledge is power.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        I meant teaching it to high schoolers in high school as part of class work, hence getting in front of folks. With CA/NYC/CO/WA all requiring job listings to show pay range data, it should be a reasonable project to assign.
    - throwamon 4y ago
      Any recommendations on materials that teach these subjects?
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Bogleheads forums. https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Household_budgeting https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Household_budgeting But I just mean making a spreadsheet calculating income/expense/savings by year until you are age 100. Of course, assumptions have to be made about inflation, investment earnings, payrates, and benefits. https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/quickcalc/ https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/quickcalc/
        cyber_kinetist 4y ago
        Thinking about what huge sweeping world events happened from 1922 to 2022 and how it affected people around the world… for an ordinary person there’s really no point in making such a spreadsheet. (Well, unless you’re born in one of those filthy-rich elite families like the Rothschilds, who have all the power they need to plan ahead…) I mean, maybe it’s a good idea to plan a few years ahead to survive in a ruthless capitalist society, but other than that I really don’t see the point. Only a few of us are going to buy an actual damn house at this rate nowadays. I think it’s best to think that (for the majority) our very moment of our life is contingent on the historical forces of the world, and there is no stable-enough historical tendency that we can exploit to calculate out our whole life trajectories.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  its a waste of time if you are not the elite landlords whose children academia was made for out of several hundred or really thousands of years, its only been several short decades where everyone else was unobjectively convinced that academia was relevant for them, and now we are reverting to the mean
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    It’s only been a few more decades that everyone was unobjectively convinced that literacy was for them, are you expecting that to revert as well?
    - loeg 4y ago
      Literacy is a lot more relevant to most people than academia.
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      no, was there intended to be a moment of introspection introduced by that strawman? it is coincidence that jobs failed to find a way to sort job seekers except by gatekeeping with higher education. higher education did not adapt to this purpose, and doesn't need to and never will need to. the utility of the working class needing higher education will have more diminishing returns, whereas literacy will have less diminishing returns.
- acchow 4y ago
  This ignores opportunity cost. If you flourish during the PhD, that's great Or you could struggle, go through tons of stress, have no time to give to friends (and lose touch with friends), no time for a relationship, etc. etc. Not to mention the financial opportunity cost
  - cvwright 4y ago
    Or it could be both. Personally I struggled, had tons of stress, no time for relationships, and all that. But it was also an intense time of personal development. I learned a lot about myself and a lot about how to work hard and get stuff done. I used to tell people that if you don’t regret starting your PhD when you’re halfway through, then you’re not doing it right. I’ve since moderated that stance - a lot - but there’s still something to be said for so-called “character building experiences” even though they suck at the time.
    - nostrebored 4y ago
      But you can get that in industry, often with serious financial benefit. It’s not like that is a unique situation
      - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
        I think the experiences of a PHD program versus working in industry are sufficiently different enough to say that they are not as easily comparable as you are making it out to be.
        nonethewiser 4y ago
        Hes not broadly comparing them. Hes correctly pointing out that "learning about oneself" and about "how to work hard and get stuff done" isnt unique to getting a PhD. If anything, its shocking that someone does not realize that's just a part of growing up.
      - cvwright 4y ago
        You definitely can get that in industry. Or the military. Or lots of places. However I think where you go in industry matters a lot. Doing a PhD at a serious program is more like starting a startup than like writing CRUD apps at a megacorp. More like going to the SEAL teams than being a supply clerk.
- chihuahua 4y ago
  Massive opportunity cost. And you don't learn all that much.
- sys_64738 4y ago
  Your twenties are some of the best earnings years of your life.
  - zmalqp 4y ago
    WTF, no. In what universe was this ever true? 40 - 60 are the prime earning years, and always have been, except for maybe mercenaries and pirates.
nnoitra 4y ago
jseliger 4y ago
I have been reading essays about the pitfalls of academia for decades (sample: https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science; I wrote my own "humanities PhDs are bad" one: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-before-you-start-grad-school-in-english-literature-the-economic-financial-and-opportunity-costs https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo..., which I still get emails about). The main thing of note about the one above is the venue.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Angry emails? The observation seems exceedingly obvious. Either you limit yourself to a very narrow career path or you dont use it. Sure, it might make sense for a few. A very select few.
robomartin 4y ago
> I got a Ph.D. in computer science a long time ago, and I think it was the worst mistake of my life I can't tell you how many PhD's I know the resemble your remarks. Quite a few of them (most?) are not doing anything related to their field of study. For example, one with a PhD in Physics owns a small vocational school teaching nursing and some IT courses. The following is going to sound horrible. Over the years, having worked with thousands of people over a career spanning about five decades and across a range of disciplines, I developed this strong belief that if you need to get things done you should not hire PhD's. In fact, speaking of technology, some of the most creative and talented people I have worked with were university dropouts who, for the most part, got tired of the slow pace and wasted efforts (i.e., having a year of general education coursework for an EE or CS degree) and went off on their own. I am talking about people who had a direct hand in delivering millions of dollars of revenue for the companies who employed them and doing so at breakneck speed. The going joke at one place where I used to work was something like: If you need it done right and in 6 to 12 months, get a college dropout with enough schooling to be able to do the job. If you have four years and don't are about making a prouct, hire a PhD. I know, harsh. I did warn it would be. That said, I have met many brilliant PhD's. I just don't know how the skills, capabilities, creativity and productivity metrics distribute in that population. No clue at all.
- Test0129 4y ago
  You missed the point of hiring PhDs. You don't usually need them unless you are on the literal bleeding edge of a very minute subfield-of-a-subfield. You hire PhDs as a value signal. "We have 6 PhDs from ivies working on solving X, Y, and Z". It doesn't even matter what X, Y, and Z are. People will THROW, THROW money at you. The only PhDs who, by my estimation, enjoy themselves are in their late 60s to mid 70s, have had tenure for 25+ years, and just do whatever they want in the fields they enjoy. It's equivalent to earning something like an Engineer in Research position. The utility you bring to industry as a PhD is almost nothing - except those 3 letters. Who would've thought 3 letters could net you so much damn money from stupid investors.
  - robomartin 4y ago

mjfl 4y ago

why do you consider it wasted? spending 6 years learning some cool stuff seems like a good life to me.

saboot 4y ago
It's not en entire benefit, that six years could have been spent making a salary, saving up retirement, starting a family, etc. It's pretty disheartening watching your peers while in graduate school
rdtwo 4y ago
He’s probably out a good mil in opportunity cost maybe more over a life time
- mjfl 4y ago
  and with that mil he could retire early and spend time studying cool stuff, exactly as he was doing in graduate school. To some, phd is skipping the line to doing stuff they want to do.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I think every high schooler should be taught how to project cash flow and figure out quality of life based on various scenarios. There is so much pay and expense data available now, there is little reason these kinds of opportunity costs should be a surprise.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    This is half the battle. The other half is getting in front of folks at that age, versus them not learning these lessons, painfully, until midlife. Lots of apathy and intentional malevolence creating friction in this regard. Knowledge is power.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I meant teaching it to high schoolers in high school as part of class work, hence getting in front of folks. With CA/NYC/CO/WA all requiring job listings to show pay range data, it should be a reasonable project to assign.
  - throwamon 4y ago
    Any recommendations on materials that teach these subjects?
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Bogleheads forums. https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Household_budgeting https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Household_budgeting But I just mean making a spreadsheet calculating income/expense/savings by year until you are age 100. Of course, assumptions have to be made about inflation, investment earnings, payrates, and benefits. https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/quickcalc/ https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/quickcalc/
      - cyber_kinetist 4y ago
        Thinking about what huge sweeping world events happened from 1922 to 2022 and how it affected people around the world… for an ordinary person there’s really no point in making such a spreadsheet. (Well, unless you’re born in one of those filthy-rich elite families like the Rothschilds, who have all the power they need to plan ahead…) I mean, maybe it’s a good idea to plan a few years ahead to survive in a ruthless capitalist society, but other than that I really don’t see the point. Only a few of us are going to buy an actual damn house at this rate nowadays. I think it’s best to think that (for the majority) our very moment of our life is contingent on the historical forces of the world, and there is no stable-enough historical tendency that we can exploit to calculate out our whole life trajectories.
yieldcrv 4y ago
its a waste of time if you are not the elite landlords whose children academia was made for out of several hundred or really thousands of years, its only been several short decades where everyone else was unobjectively convinced that academia was relevant for them, and now we are reverting to the mean
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  It’s only been a few more decades that everyone was unobjectively convinced that literacy was for them, are you expecting that to revert as well?
  - loeg 4y ago
    Literacy is a lot more relevant to most people than academia.
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    no, was there intended to be a moment of introspection introduced by that strawman? it is coincidence that jobs failed to find a way to sort job seekers except by gatekeeping with higher education. higher education did not adapt to this purpose, and doesn't need to and never will need to. the utility of the working class needing higher education will have more diminishing returns, whereas literacy will have less diminishing returns.
acchow 4y ago
This ignores opportunity cost. If you flourish during the PhD, that's great Or you could struggle, go through tons of stress, have no time to give to friends (and lose touch with friends), no time for a relationship, etc. etc. Not to mention the financial opportunity cost
- cvwright 4y ago
  Or it could be both. Personally I struggled, had tons of stress, no time for relationships, and all that. But it was also an intense time of personal development. I learned a lot about myself and a lot about how to work hard and get stuff done. I used to tell people that if you don’t regret starting your PhD when you’re halfway through, then you’re not doing it right. I’ve since moderated that stance - a lot - but there’s still something to be said for so-called “character building experiences” even though they suck at the time.
  - nostrebored 4y ago
    But you can get that in industry, often with serious financial benefit. It’s not like that is a unique situation
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      I think the experiences of a PHD program versus working in industry are sufficiently different enough to say that they are not as easily comparable as you are making it out to be.
      - nonethewiser 4y ago
        Hes not broadly comparing them. Hes correctly pointing out that "learning about oneself" and about "how to work hard and get stuff done" isnt unique to getting a PhD. If anything, its shocking that someone does not realize that's just a part of growing up.
    - cvwright 4y ago
      You definitely can get that in industry. Or the military. Or lots of places. However I think where you go in industry matters a lot. Doing a PhD at a serious program is more like starting a startup than like writing CRUD apps at a megacorp. More like going to the SEAL teams than being a supply clerk.
chihuahua 4y ago
Massive opportunity cost. And you don't learn all that much.
sys_64738 4y ago
Your twenties are some of the best earnings years of your life.
- zmalqp 4y ago
  WTF, no. In what universe was this ever true? 40 - 60 are the prime earning years, and always have been, except for maybe mercenaries and pirates.

nnoitra 4y ago

jseliger 4y ago

I have been reading essays about the pitfalls of academia for decades (sample: https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science; I wrote my own "humanities PhDs are bad" one: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-before-you-start-grad-school-in-english-literature-the-economic-financial-and-opportunity-costs https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo..., which I still get emails about). The main thing of note about the one above is the venue.

nonethewiser 4y ago
Angry emails? The observation seems exceedingly obvious. Either you limit yourself to a very narrow career path or you dont use it. Sure, it might make sense for a few. A very select few.

robomartin 4y ago

> I got a Ph.D. in computer science a long time ago, and I think it was the worst mistake of my life I can't tell you how many PhD's I know the resemble your remarks. Quite a few of them (most?) are not doing anything related to their field of study. For example, one with a PhD in Physics owns a small vocational school teaching nursing and some IT courses. The following is going to sound horrible. Over the years, having worked with thousands of people over a career spanning about five decades and across a range of disciplines, I developed this strong belief that if you need to get things done you should not hire PhD's. In fact, speaking of technology, some of the most creative and talented people I have worked with were university dropouts who, for the most part, got tired of the slow pace and wasted efforts (i.e., having a year of general education coursework for an EE or CS degree) and went off on their own. I am talking about people who had a direct hand in delivering millions of dollars of revenue for the companies who employed them and doing so at breakneck speed. The going joke at one place where I used to work was something like: If you need it done right and in 6 to 12 months, get a college dropout with enough schooling to be able to do the job. If you have four years and don't are about making a prouct, hire a PhD. I know, harsh. I did warn it would be. That said, I have met many brilliant PhD's. I just don't know how the skills, capabilities, creativity and productivity metrics distribute in that population. No clue at all.

Test0129 4y ago
You missed the point of hiring PhDs. You don't usually need them unless you are on the literal bleeding edge of a very minute subfield-of-a-subfield. You hire PhDs as a value signal. "We have 6 PhDs from ivies working on solving X, Y, and Z". It doesn't even matter what X, Y, and Z are. People will THROW, THROW money at you. The only PhDs who, by my estimation, enjoy themselves are in their late 60s to mid 70s, have had tenure for 25+ years, and just do whatever they want in the fields they enjoy. It's equivalent to earning something like an Engineer in Research position. The utility you bring to industry as a PhD is almost nothing - except those 3 letters. Who would've thought 3 letters could net you so much damn money from stupid investors.
- robomartin 4y ago