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I do contracting for USPTO and have another perspective as an insider to their technology and internal processes (not legal), who works very closely with examin

I do contracting for USPTO and have another perspective as an insider to their technology and internal processes (not legal), who works very closely with examiners and other stakeholders. The tools that patent examiners use is quite awful. Like many other government agencies, it’s embedded with legacy tools that are extremely obtuse, difficult to use, and time consuming. Many of these tools are decades old, unreliable, and have limited capabilities. We are JUST NOW starting a shift to the cloud (AWS), but most of that will be a “lift and shift”, keeping the old systems and practices in place while we figure out how to replace entire workflows. Basic functionality like searches, file transfers, data transforms, validation, content management, and archiving suffer from neglected maintenance or they’re so brittle that any little disruption can take a vital system down, further wasting examiners’ time. All of the above-mentioned issues are hidden time wasters that examiners have simply come to accept. My point is, you many not actually need more time, rather you may need better and more modern tools that would vastly improve efficiency and accuracy of examiner workflows.

seeEllArr 4y ago
fakedang 4y ago
Is it possible to use publicly available patent office data to create a parallel database and tools which the PTO folks could use? Perhaps there is room for the development of an open-source collaborative effort to create a parallel data to fight back the trolls? Anyone else feel free to chime in!
lordnacho 4y ago
I used a patent lawyer who said the patent had to be filed using a fax machine. For those who are too young, a fax machine is this arcane device that used to be everywhere, like a remote photocopier. Got the US patent dated 2013. Was the lawyer pulling my leg?
- MereInterest 4y ago
  It wouldn't surprise me, as faxes have some really weird legal exceptions carved out for them. For example, a faxed document is considered equivalent to the original, but a scanned image is not. So even though a scanned image signed with your private key would be much more verifiable than a faxed copy that is transmitted without encryption and printed in a shared office, the law considers the fax as better than the scanned image. Which is all to say that it wouldn't surprise me if there were a legal requirement for an "original document", and if that requirement could only be met by physical mail or fax.
  - birdman3131 4y ago
    At least in the medical world the security requirements of documents at rest is much higher than ones in transit. So you can't easily do efax because as soon as you have a queued pdf its at rest. (It can be done. just not easily.) So when everybody switches over to voip they usually try to keep the old fax machines going which faxing over voip is hit or miss.
  - themadturk 4y ago
    Faxes are (or were originally) point-to-point electronic transmissions -- one fax machine dialing via POTS to another fax machine. In addition, the received fax, and the response sheet received by the sender, have time and date stamps that give legally-admissible proof of transmission and reception (and the sender will get a report of failure if that's the case as well). As a former fax server administrator (and troubleshooter/maintainer of everyday standalone fax machines), I think the point-to-point nature of traditional, non-Internet fax is the killer feature: no packets split up and resting on intermediate servers, etc. Fax servers have one or more individual fax modem cards, so the only network involved is before or after the actual fax transmission. I know fax is outdated. There are other effective technologies to replace it. But I've found myself more than once speaking up as a defender of the technology because, as originally used and codified into law, it serves a specific purpose and, as a bonus, if you know how to use a photocopier and a telephone it's drop-dead simple to use.
    - 4y ago
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
what does the cloud have to do with the tools being old and creaky? Is there some magic sauce that makes the search suddenly useful once it's sitting in AWS? I ask because I see this ALL the time. technical people abusing business ignorance by using initiatives to improve tools to "move to the cloud". Unless you're telling me the problem you're solving has to do with elastic demand or too much costs maintaining infrastructure, this does NOTHING to solve the actual problem. Do we imagine that suddenly this organization is going to start maintaining their stuff if it's sitting on AWS servers instead of their own?
- mring33621 4y ago
  "move to the cloud" is a top strategic objective in my org I have explained why it should not be, but Mgmt does not care. Everyone's doing it. We NEED to do it. I believe we are in a mix of FOMO, resume-driven development and empire-building. Ok, I can tell that you want me to expand. Here goes: Cloud may offer: 1) improved scalability (both horizontal and vertical) 2) improved availability 3) reduced cost None of these are guaranteed and will require much expertise in both initial choice-making and continuing execution. We don't really have that expertise. Do you?
  - voakbasda 4y ago
    > None of these are guaranteed and will require much expertise in both initial choice-making and continuing execution. I feel confident saying that the government does not have this expertise and never will, so this just seems like yet another taxpayer-funded boondoggle (aka, the status quo).
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > 3) reduced cost From what I've always heard, of all the benefits the cloud has, reduced cost is not one of them unless your compute need is exceptionally small (ie, you only need a few t3.* instances).
    - nostrebored 4y ago
btrettel 4y ago
I'll agree that many of the tools are bad. I have a particular dislike for how slow Word is. But, I don't think that transitioning everything to the cloud is necessarily going to help. Word is slow many times because it freezes up when syncing. And a lot of the tools are good. EAST and PE2E Search have a lot of great features for power searchers that I'd like to see in tools outside of the USPTO. (But they also have a lot of annoyances.) I don't think more than 1/3 or so of my time is wasted due to these sorts of things. That's significant, but it won't be the game changer that doubling examination time would be. I don't know anything about what's happening on the backend, for what it's worth. I assume that it's always near exploding. By the way, you can find a bunch of annoying time wasters listed by examiners here: https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/comments/y9pyfx/mildly_infuriating_thread/ https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/comments/y9pyfx/mild... (Again, like my other comments here, this is just my opinion, not that of the USPTO or US government.)
- nostrebored 4y ago
  But wouldn’t doubling the time reduce pressure for innovation here?
  - mikewarot 4y ago
    Improving the time/quality of examination would reduce the number of bad patents, and thus raise the bar for something to get patented, requiring MORE actual innovation, and less fake process based crap.
  - Naracion 4y ago
    Pressure for (perceived) innovation is one of the things that drives bad patents. Removing this pressure has positive consequences (in addition to the negative consequence of potentially novel IP not being protected in time--but is that actually a bad thing? I don't know). There's a parallel also in the world of academic paper publishing--the pressure for constantly innovating and publishing is a major reason for bad publications. I am speaking anecdotally, from my experience as a past PhD student and a current young professional in the research industry.
  - 4y ago
hanniabu 4y ago
Why isn't a new system built from the ground up in parallel instead of trying to swap the engine in a moving car?

seeEllArr 4y ago

fakedang 4y ago

Is it possible to use publicly available patent office data to create a parallel database and tools which the PTO folks could use? Perhaps there is room for the development of an open-source collaborative effort to create a parallel data to fight back the trolls? Anyone else feel free to chime in!

lordnacho 4y ago

I used a patent lawyer who said the patent had to be filed using a fax machine. For those who are too young, a fax machine is this arcane device that used to be everywhere, like a remote photocopier. Got the US patent dated 2013. Was the lawyer pulling my leg?

MereInterest 4y ago
It wouldn't surprise me, as faxes have some really weird legal exceptions carved out for them. For example, a faxed document is considered equivalent to the original, but a scanned image is not. So even though a scanned image signed with your private key would be much more verifiable than a faxed copy that is transmitted without encryption and printed in a shared office, the law considers the fax as better than the scanned image. Which is all to say that it wouldn't surprise me if there were a legal requirement for an "original document", and if that requirement could only be met by physical mail or fax.
- birdman3131 4y ago
  At least in the medical world the security requirements of documents at rest is much higher than ones in transit. So you can't easily do efax because as soon as you have a queued pdf its at rest. (It can be done. just not easily.) So when everybody switches over to voip they usually try to keep the old fax machines going which faxing over voip is hit or miss.
- themadturk 4y ago
  Faxes are (or were originally) point-to-point electronic transmissions -- one fax machine dialing via POTS to another fax machine. In addition, the received fax, and the response sheet received by the sender, have time and date stamps that give legally-admissible proof of transmission and reception (and the sender will get a report of failure if that's the case as well). As a former fax server administrator (and troubleshooter/maintainer of everyday standalone fax machines), I think the point-to-point nature of traditional, non-Internet fax is the killer feature: no packets split up and resting on intermediate servers, etc. Fax servers have one or more individual fax modem cards, so the only network involved is before or after the actual fax transmission. I know fax is outdated. There are other effective technologies to replace it. But I've found myself more than once speaking up as a defender of the technology because, as originally used and codified into law, it serves a specific purpose and, as a bonus, if you know how to use a photocopier and a telephone it's drop-dead simple to use.
  - 4y ago

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

what does the cloud have to do with the tools being old and creaky? Is there some magic sauce that makes the search suddenly useful once it's sitting in AWS? I ask because I see this ALL the time. technical people abusing business ignorance by using initiatives to improve tools to "move to the cloud". Unless you're telling me the problem you're solving has to do with elastic demand or too much costs maintaining infrastructure, this does NOTHING to solve the actual problem. Do we imagine that suddenly this organization is going to start maintaining their stuff if it's sitting on AWS servers instead of their own?

mring33621 4y ago
"move to the cloud" is a top strategic objective in my org I have explained why it should not be, but Mgmt does not care. Everyone's doing it. We NEED to do it. I believe we are in a mix of FOMO, resume-driven development and empire-building. Ok, I can tell that you want me to expand. Here goes: Cloud may offer: 1) improved scalability (both horizontal and vertical) 2) improved availability 3) reduced cost None of these are guaranteed and will require much expertise in both initial choice-making and continuing execution. We don't really have that expertise. Do you?
- voakbasda 4y ago
  > None of these are guaranteed and will require much expertise in both initial choice-making and continuing execution. I feel confident saying that the government does not have this expertise and never will, so this just seems like yet another taxpayer-funded boondoggle (aka, the status quo).
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > 3) reduced cost From what I've always heard, of all the benefits the cloud has, reduced cost is not one of them unless your compute need is exceptionally small (ie, you only need a few t3.* instances).
  - nostrebored 4y ago

btrettel 4y ago

I'll agree that many of the tools are bad. I have a particular dislike for how slow Word is. But, I don't think that transitioning everything to the cloud is necessarily going to help. Word is slow many times because it freezes up when syncing. And a lot of the tools are good. EAST and PE2E Search have a lot of great features for power searchers that I'd like to see in tools outside of the USPTO. (But they also have a lot of annoyances.) I don't think more than 1/3 or so of my time is wasted due to these sorts of things. That's significant, but it won't be the game changer that doubling examination time would be. I don't know anything about what's happening on the backend, for what it's worth. I assume that it's always near exploding. By the way, you can find a bunch of annoying time wasters listed by examiners here: https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/comments/y9pyfx/mildly_infuriating_thread/ https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/comments/y9pyfx/mild... (Again, like my other comments here, this is just my opinion, not that of the USPTO or US government.)

nostrebored 4y ago
But wouldn’t doubling the time reduce pressure for innovation here?
- mikewarot 4y ago
  Improving the time/quality of examination would reduce the number of bad patents, and thus raise the bar for something to get patented, requiring MORE actual innovation, and less fake process based crap.
- Naracion 4y ago
  Pressure for (perceived) innovation is one of the things that drives bad patents. Removing this pressure has positive consequences (in addition to the negative consequence of potentially novel IP not being protected in time--but is that actually a bad thing? I don't know). There's a parallel also in the world of academic paper publishing--the pressure for constantly innovating and publishing is a major reason for bad publications. I am speaking anecdotally, from my experience as a past PhD student and a current young professional in the research industry.
- 4y ago

hanniabu 4y ago

Why isn't a new system built from the ground up in parallel instead of trying to swap the engine in a moving car?