10 ms·

Honda electric moped coming, intended to fit “50cc” category

156 points by ilamont 4y ago

reustle 4y ago
They’ve been teasing an EV Cub for a few years now. Excited to try it out. I just saw shots from some friends in Japan here this weekend where they were putting an electric CR through its paces (their offroad only dirtbike line). I believe it was a Honda GO related event. Like the US, Japan allows people to ride a 50cc (or equivalent ev) moped or scooter on the street (when license plated) with their regular car license, which is why they’re going after this size.
hprotagonist 4y ago
Awesome. this is the niche that will win.
tiahura 4y ago
The next Aero 50.
rwbt 4y ago
Love the designs - but how is this better than a modern electric pedal assist or throttle controlled electric ebike? They made a lot of sense during the oil crisis but why would anyone really bother getting licensed, paying for registration and maintaining insurance when you can get an electric bike and get a very similar experience without all that hassle? I'm not trying to be dismissive mind you, but genuinely curious if this potential market will be big enough to address it.
- alwayslikethis 4y ago
  In many countries, (incl. US), you can ride a moped with just a car license. The registration is greatly simplified compared to car and insurance wouldn't be that much.
  - rahimnathwani 4y ago
    According to the California DMV, you can't ride a moped without a motorcycle licence: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-registration/motorcycles-mopeds-and-scooters/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-regis... "You must have a motorcycle license (M1 or M2) to drive a moped."
    - dharmab 4y ago
      California is unusually restrictive compared to the rest of the country.
    - JamesianP 4y ago
      I looked into it years ago and a moped license was way easier to get than a motorcycle license. Now it appears they both have the same requirements, just the M2 is more restricted in what it can be used for.
    - graton 4y ago
      In Oregon if it is less than 50cc and can not go faster than 30mph on a flat level surface than it only requires a normal car driver's license. No motorcycle endorsement is required. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf
  - Markoff 4y ago
    I'd say in most of the EU you can ride <125ccm motorbike with regular car license, so this changes nothing at least in EU. Heck, I don't even know what is supposed to be "50ccm" ebike, ebikes are limited by laws in regard to their power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh), not volume. Specifically EU directive says for pedal assisted ebike is this: "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling" Everything else ain't ebike and requires some sort of license. Though of course the reality is police won't be checking every single ebike on road and they have no way to meaure the power.
- LgWoodenBadger 4y ago
  50cc mopeds don’t generally require a motorcycle endorsement in the US.
  - eli 4y ago
    an ebike doesn't even require a driver license
    - phire 4y ago
      Electric Mopeds sit in a middle-ground, with more power, higher top speeds than ebikes but more restrictive licensing rules. For example, an ebike in Europe is speed limited to 25kph, and just small motors that can only output 250W.
    - JusticeJuice 4y ago
      ebikes have power limits or speed limits depending on the country.
      - eli 4y ago
        So do “50cc” mopeds.
- zxexz 4y ago
  I don’t have a response to your first question - some modern e-bikes are very capable. But in many jurisdictions registering a moped is extremely easy - in MA and VT at least, it’s honor system. In MA you have to go into the RMV but don’t have to have anything beyond the bill of sale and a VIN. VT you can even send in the form, you don’t even have to live in VT. You usually have to have a learners permit at the very least - sometimes a drivers license. I’m sure there are some places where you need a motorcycle endorsement, but I’m not aware of any in the US.
- dharmab 4y ago
  In my state a moped only requires a driver's license. No title, registration, insurance or M class endorsement required.
- ehnto 4y ago
  The difference is in the on-road experience. With this you are classified as a motor vehicle and can expect to keep up with and maneuver through road speed traffic. That's actually what pedal-assist restrictions are all about, clearly delineating the bicycles from the motorbikes. This also manages expectations for users. You shouldn't expect to play in traffic at 60+kmph as a cyclist, and you shouldn't expect to be riding your much heavier, much faster electric moped on bike paths. The form factors can make that line blurry, you could totally have a bicycle that can do 60+ and you could easily have a moped that looks small enough to be a bicycle. Hence the regulations to clear up any confusion. From a personal exprience point of view, I would expect to be able to comfortably wear leathers and a moto helmet and not negatively impact the ride. On a pedal assist bicycle there is no way I am wearing leathers and because of that I don't want to be going 60-80kmph in traffic unprotected, I want to be on seperated bike paths.
  - pavon 4y ago
    When I bought my scooter the 50cc models I test drove could not reliably keep up with 30-35mph traffic. My 125cc does fine up to 45mph except on a steep incline.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - etrautmann 4y ago
    and yet here in NYC, we have people taking electric mopeds down the Hudson greenway and other protected pedestrian+bike paths.
    - CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
      I visited NYC this summer and observed a significant volume of gas mopeds on the protected bike paths. Gross!
    - ehnto 4y ago
      Oh I believe that, NYC is chaos. I bet people use those gas powered one-wheels wherever they want too
- JusticeJuice 4y ago
  Ebikes have restrictions on power, or speed in most places. Of course this is largely not enforced when people DIY, but a legit company can't just bring a mass produced 2000w ebike to market.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  I guess that's all the same questions for mopeds everywhere?
rurounijones 4y ago
I am kind of surprised that there is no obvious mount for a basket on the back (or front?) for small amounts of shopping and whatnot. Seems like it would increase the utility of it massively. My friends in Paris who use mopeds a lot would definitely miss the carrying capacity, modest as it is. The footboard looks wide enough to place some bags in but not everyone likes that.
- dharmab 4y ago
  Especially since the usualy underseat storage is missing. (Aside: Thanks for OverlordBot!)
  - rurounijones 4y ago
    Hahaha, HN is the last place I expected OverlordBot to pop up :D Thanks very much.
- seb1204 4y ago
  I assume they will come later as options. Expensive subscription options...
ck2 4y ago
Sadly in the US they are going to be flattened by rolling coal in those monster sized pickups and SUVs Maybe not even on purpose, the profile in traffic is almost invisible in the morning before sunrise, no-one is looking at the road anymore but rather their phone and no law seems able to stop them without enforcement.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  No more than the ebikes, mopeds, and motorcycles already on the road, so that doesn't really change much...
fomine3 4y ago
50cc category is important in Japan because it's really easy and cheap to get license, and some high school students are allowed only to get 50cc license.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kh1 4y ago
  But there are people who ride illegal ebikes that go faster than 24km/h and I have never seen them getting caught
  - filoleg 4y ago
    50cc scooters/bikes typically can go around 30-60mph (50-100kmph), so that comparison feels a bit unfair.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      Funnily, 50cc scooters/bikes are limited to 30km/h max! It's common to exceed the limit a bit.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        How does that work when going downhill? 30km/h at the crest can easily turn into 60+ km/h at the bottom if it's steep.
        schroeding 4y ago
        Of course, the manufacturer knows all the drivers are responsible and follow the law exactly and thus brake to not exceed the speed limit. ;-P
        numpad0 4y ago
        It’s just the legal !important speed limit for 50cc class(“Type I bicycles with prime mover”).
mabil 4y ago
I love the rugged design of ubco, and I believe they are working on making a legal street version of it. https://ubco.co.nz/ https://ubco.co.nz/ edit: they already do have an on-road version of it :) https://ubco.co.nz/pages/rv https://ubco.co.nz/pages/rv
- wanderr 4y ago
  I test drove one of these. It's a lot of fun but having power to the front wheel while cornering feels extremely dangerous to me.
metadat 4y ago
I think I see some suspension travel up front.. Think you could go mountain biking with it?
Mengkudulangsat 4y ago
Can we please just loose the pedals? Pedals on these feels like a pathetic attempt at regulatory arbitrage.
- lovemenot 4y ago
  So what if it is exactly that? If pedals opens those regulated markets which Honda has surely researched, then all the better.
- timbit42 4y ago
  In some countries, including mine, having pedals means a license isn't required to drive it. I'm surprised they didn't make the pedals and cranks fold out of the way when not in use.
hammock 4y ago
Nowhere for helmet storage or a grocery bag
- timbit42 4y ago
  Gotta keep the price low and have something for owners to pay for in the future.
Ptchd 4y ago
LoL, why does it have a chain and is missing a basket?
- dharmab 4y ago
  Chain drive is more efficient than belt drive.
  - Tepix 4y ago
    But why no in-hub motor? Must be because of the silly pedals.
    - quesera 4y ago
      According to the article, and plausibly in the photos, there is a hub motor. The pedals and chain are freewheeling, and assist only. Spacing and pedal arm length look to me like they'd be very uncomfortable though.
      - Ptchd 4y ago
        yeah sure doesn't look like a Honda design
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  > intended to be ridden like scooters but with pedals as a form of backup power.
  - Ptchd 4y ago
    Wow I'm blind... I missed those pedals. Thanks
megablast 4y ago
Anything is better than cars.
- timbit42 4y ago
  I can think of worse things.
defrost 4y ago
It's not a real bike until someone crosses the Simpson Desert riding one [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3T_vM3VBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3T_vM3VBI Who's game?
- Tepix 4y ago
  So this would probably require a trailer with solar panels? The motor has 4kW peak but surely uses much less while merely going constant speed.
hadlock 4y ago
This is a big deal. Honda sells more step through scooters than anyone else. Particularly in SE Asia. Also it has pedals which technically makes it a moped/electric bicycle. That said, it's a Honda. You can trace the current 50cc and 125cc step through scooters all the way back to the 1960s particularly the engine-frame bolt pattern. This makes interchangeable parts safe to design and manufacture as there's an enormous market for them. You could call them the Chevy small block 350 V8 of motorcycles. Honda finally releasing a 50cc equivalent electric moped will instantly create an entire sub market of compatible parts and, unlike every other ebike manufacturer out there, Honda will still be there in 20 years, and you'll be able to buy parts for this off the shelf in 120+ counties worldwide.
2Gkashmiri 4y ago
so 50cc is "small" moped ? >This brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph and no more than 4kW of power; for comparison, i have been using an hero electric "optima" bought exactly 3 years ago which has a motor of 250 watts and battery of 1kwh. https://heroelectric.in/bike/atria-lx/#specs https://heroelectric.in/bike/atria-lx/#specs here is an updated version of this.it is still the same insides. here is my actual usage pattern. 180Kg weight limit and i have consistently pulled 210Kg+ on this. the battery has severely degraded to a point my first Km range was 50km while today i can only manage 20. i have used this machine in rain, snow, sun and all the 6 seasons of the valley and has performed admirably. plus the cost is also around $1000 or less so i don't really see why anyone would need anything more? sure if you need high speeds and all, you can buy high speed versions
- Toutouxc 4y ago
  No way that something with a 180 kg weight limit only has a 250W motor. I know it’s written on the website, but that simply wouldn’t work. 250 W is weaker than the Xiaomi Mi Scooter, which is a lightweight kick scooter already criticized for being too weak.
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    well i am "using" it and the battery is only 48v24ah so if the 48*24=1152wh(approx), how else am i supposed to get 50km from a single charge?
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    https://pureev.in/etrance-neo/ https://pureev.in/etrance-neo/ https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/ETrance_Plus_Datasheet.pdf https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/ETr... datasheet for "etrance+" https://pureev.in/epluto/ https://pureev.in/epluto/ https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/EPluto_Datasheet.pdf https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/EPl... datasheet for " epluto" here this is the base model and people pretty much use this as alternatives to regular 110/125cc petrol scooters. third company selling 250watt scooters https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/r30/r30/ https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/r30/r30/ https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/lite/lite/ https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/lite/lite/ and these are "hot selling" vehicles and i own epluto and optima (optima is not on website as that was refreshed since) and 210+ as i've already said so yeah
jakub_jo 4y ago
There's also a Vespa limited to 45 km/h: https://www.vespa.com/en_EN/models/elettrica/elettrica-45-kmh-3-5-kw-electric-moped/ https://www.vespa.com/en_EN/models/elettrica/elettrica-45-km...
Stevvo 4y ago
Electric mopeds are an extremely well established market overseas. In China both annual production and ownership have been higher than cars every year for the last 15 years!
marsven_422 4y ago
lovemenot 4y ago
This could be aiming at Gogoro and the like, which have a pretty good sized market in Taiwan and are just beginning to expand from there. It'll be interesting to see whether Honda follows Gogoro with swapable batteries, charging infrastructure, sharing apps etc. These machines look more robust than an e-bicycle: better suited to rental markets, and perhaps in countries with lower quality road infrastructure.
riffraff 4y ago
The Piaggio 1 has been around for a while in Europe, and I think it's in the same category, I'm not sure why this is a big news. https://www.piaggio.com/gb_EN/models/piaggio-1/piaggio-1-1-2-kw-2021/ https://www.piaggio.com/gb_EN/models/piaggio-1/piaggio-1-1-2...
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  In China there have been millions of electric scooters on the roads for years...
  - hashmush 4y ago
    Yup, I think some (all?) cities have banned ICE scooters. I only ever saw electric ones there (though this was 5 years ago now).
  - riffraff 4y ago
    sure, but the article talks about regulations in Europe, designs being filed in Europe, categories in Europe etc. It seemed euro-centric.
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    They're around Europe as well, in fact they've overtaken sales of petrol scooters recently [0]. This one is low power and has pedals though, which makes me wonder if it's trying to compete with pedal assist electric bikes... and why, since those are much more prevalent. Unless this one has a much bigger battery I guess. [0] https://mijn.bovag.nl/actueel/nieuws/2022/februari/meer-elektrische-scooters-dan-benzinescooters-verk https://mijn.bovag.nl/actueel/nieuws/2022/februari/meer-elek...
- odiroot 4y ago
  This is a scooter, not a moped. Then again I don't see why does Honda feel the need to introduce pedals.
  - izacus 4y ago
    What's the difference? It fits within the 50cc drivers license.
lifeisstillgood 4y ago
We come back to urban design not vehicle design. This is a fine vehicle I am sure, and fits in similar category to eBikes etc. Small, designed for town and city, can be lugged up and down steps so kept in non-car spaces. But vulnerable to a ton of fast moving metal. We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car. - seperate lanes and roads for "vulnerable vehicles", for manual vs motor powered. - license all powered and manual vehicles - treat them all the same. (this most importantly includes insurance. I am a bike rider hit by a car and still not seen a penny. But if I had a giant bureaucratic insurance company on my side it would have been sorted already. And the externality priced in better. - All the other arguments on StrongTowns, 15 minute cities etc. It's too late for Houston but maybe we can save other towns.
- Shank 4y ago
  > We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car. I agree with you philosophically but how would this work in practice? Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas. It's like, if a giant earthquake flattened LA sure, that would be a great excuse to redesign the entire city. But the vast majority of the infra isn't going anywhere, and nobody is gonna float redesigning a city with the level of NIMBY-goodness here. Practically speaking, a "50cc-rated EV moped" is a great way to, at minimum, start to get people thinking less about cars, in my opinion. It's a necessary bridge to a future that's probably decades away.
  - toyg 4y ago
    > Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas. I mean, in Europe we've largely repurposed medieval towns to car usage, with much worse constraints in terms of preservation of historical buildings. US cities can be much more radical and much more easily, if they really want to.
  - Fradow 4y ago
    It's much more complicated in practice, but in theory, it's pretty simple: convert existing car lanes to bike lanes. Chaos will ensue as the construction work and reduced road throughput inevitably generate huge jams. That chaos is a feature, not a bug. It's meant to discourage people from using their car. If you keep car usage convenient, people will continue to use their car. Any measure that makes using a car inconvenient is a good thing. Low road throughput, high parking cost, low number of parking spots etc... I've seen it played out in Paris, which was very much a car city two decades ago, and can now be described as a bike-friendly city: it's far from being on-par with Netherlands standard, but good enough that lots of people chose a bike over other methods of transportation, and cars are generally one of the slowest form of transportation in a city (behind public transit, bikes or other 2-wheelers).
Markoff 4y ago
Nobody cares about some 50cc category in EU, the definition according EU directive is about power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh): "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling" Article doesn't mention electric engine power. Obviously if they would ditch pedals they have no chance. And I'd say most of the EU countries require regular car license up to <125cc, but yeah, some have lower requirements for <50cc mopeds.
- Bouncingsoul1 4y ago
  You might want to review the EU driver licence classes then. Class AM "Two-wheel vehicles or three-wheel vehicles with a maximum design speed of not more than 45 kilometres per hour (28 mph) and with a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimetres (3.1 cu in). "
  - Markoff 4y ago
    As I said this is electric bike, nothing to do with cylinders in EU, but power output of 250 W, so completely different category from what you mention and as I said regarding ICU motorbikes, you are fine with normal car license up to 125ccm and if you don't have car license then it's slightly easier maybe to get 50ccm license, but still nothing to do with ELECTRIC bike.
    - avian 4y ago
      > regarding ICU motorbikes, you are fine with normal car license up to 125ccm This sounds like class A1 vehicle (up to 125 cm3 for ICE, up to 11 kW engine power, up to 0.1 kW/kg engine power per mass of vehicle) With my class B license (the usual normal car license most people have), the only two-wheel motor vehicles I'm allowed to operate are class AM mentioned by the parent comment above. For operating class A1 you need a class A license.
      - 4y ago
drumhead 4y ago
Super Cub Electric? Would be a game changer especially if it wasnt premium priced.
- puzzlingcaptcha 4y ago
  There already is an electric Cub called EV Cub. This however has pedals which is all about classifying as a moped.
lk251 4y ago
forgive my off topicness but I wish someone would buy the Boosted Boards IP from Lime and open source the firmware. Boosted Boards were epic.
langsoul-com 4y ago
No point going on early on electric scooters, just wait for the tech to get better and better.
- iefbr14 4y ago
  Not to mention the pricing. you can buy a 350watt stickblender for under $10 ;)
hoseja 4y ago
Finally! It's been astounding me people would use electric kick-scooters (or bikes, but mostly the scooters) instead of this form factor.
- bluescrn 4y ago
  Small electric 'kick scooters' can be easily stored/charged indoors, even if you're in a city centre apartment and need to get it up/down stairs. That's not so practical to do with an e-bike, and certainly not doable with something like this.
  - Stevvo 4y ago
    It's perfectly doable if you have an elevator or guarded parking. Enter any Chinese apartment building and you will find scooters like this one stored inside people's apartments on every floor. They only weigh about 100KG so elevators can handle them fine.
ritonlajoie 4y ago
Interesting for small commute. I am from France and driving a Piaggio MP3 400cc for 10 years (and other stuff before). New laws in Paris are pushing people to buy electric. For example, since this summer, parking in the street with a motorbike/scooter is paid if it's not an electric engine. I'm myself waiting for the delivery of a Super Soco CPX. Its range and power isn't what I wanted, but I guess I don't have a choice, my MP3 is failing (50K+ kilometers) and I guess I need to transition to electric too. I tested the CPX, it's not very powerful and has only a 70km range (1 battery, can have 2 batteries for 140km range if you need). It goes as fast as 90km/h (130km/h on my MP3) and will prevent me from taking the highway to get out of Paris. But I guess we all have to make an effort ! Oh also my back will not thank me when it's time to get the 20kg battery out and take it home to charge it.
- thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
  >Oh also my back will not thank me when it's time to get the 20kg battery out and take it home to charge it. For comparison, this is the weight of an empty barbell.
  - seb1204 4y ago
    What is a barbell you ask? The metal stick where you put on the weights each side in the gym. Had to look it up.
    - jfk13 4y ago
      Not to be confused with a barbel -- which is a fish.
      - waste_monk 4y ago
        Apparently the largest barbels can grow up to 10kg. So the battery is worth approximately two barbels. It may have been more fitting to call the fish dumbbels.
  - machinawhite 4y ago
amelius 4y ago
No back seat?
- timbit42 4y ago
  Future upgrade.
sdze 4y ago
Would prefer the gasoline variants.
llampx 4y ago
I live in Berlin and have a Motorroller, essentially a 50cc Chinese Vespa clone with a 4-stroke motor and about 100 km on a tank. I love it. It is slow but fast enough, in the summer it is invaluable but mainly if one can filter through traffic at lights and park on the sidewalks. Without those advantages it is slower than cars or trains. I wanted an electric one, but I was afraid of battery longevity, the good ones cost 3x the price, so I thought I'll buy this one and get an electric one next time. Now there are more electric choices, but range is still limited and they are probably more often targeted by thieves. It remains to be seen whether mine, now 5 years old, will survive till the next summer and whether I'll buy an electric one next time.
- dalbasal 4y ago
  Ultimately, the attention received by thieves and vandals is the major factor for 2 wheel vehicles. For whatever reason, a 500cc will get messed with a lot less than a 50. I have a powerful "electric bike." It does the 50cc job well, imo, despite speed and range being lower. I still use my car more, because I can park a car and not worry about it. When taking my e-bike to a cafe, I strategize parking in advance, worry as I sip and also carry around my helmet & battery. Cars are easier. Lately, I decided that a jacket and heavy shoes and gloves are necessary. Just because it's legally a bicycle... 50kmh is 50kmh and fingers are important to me. So, while light motorcycles really are the perfect vehicle in many instances... the thieves guild's policy on vehicles under 100kg really hampers the category.
OliverJones 4y ago
Interesting. Honda's core competency has long been internal combustion engines (ICE). My household has, for a long time, had a Honda car, motor scooter (110cc), and lawnmower. We don't need a generator, but if we did we would pick Honda. I was an early adopter of their Insight hybrid car, almost a quarter-century ago. That was focused on battery support for a very light ICE, not on replacing the ICE. It was effective. I've long believed they were all in on hydrogen fuel as the next big thing, because it would preserve their internal combustion tech investment. And, I've long believed that was an existential mistake. They, working with Toyota, could have pulled it off by pouring bucketloads of upfront capital into refueling infrastructure (like Tesla did with their Supercharger network). But they didn't. Pilot projects with short-range delivery vans don't cut it. It's about time they started working on BEV. But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems? (No seat height adjustment is evident and they're far too widely spaced to let a rider get any power without rocking back and forth.) There are plenty of decent e-bikes in this market space. Most of them leverage the existing cycling parts and service capabilities . Honda's coming late to this party. We shall see.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems? Doesn't this allow the bike to pass as a 'bicycle' when it comes to restricted pathways or trails? >There are plenty of decent e-bikes in this market space. As your comment demonstrates, Honda has long-standing brand loyalty that counts for a lot.
  - tim333 4y ago
    For a long time - maybe still 49cc "mopeds" were a thing in the UK as you could use them without a license whereas for a 49cc motorcycle you did need one. I bought one once - the pedals could be folded out if you needed and were kind of hopeless as the bike was much too heavy to be pedaled in a useful way. It was ok as a small motorcycle - top speed about 40mph. I think now for that category they've dropped the pedal requirement but reduced the speed to 30mph.
- mastazi 4y ago
  > I've long believed they were all in on hydrogen fuel as the next big thing, because it would preserve their internal combustion tech investment. I'm not sure about Honda specifically, but in most cases hydrogen cars are actually electric vehicles with hydrogen fuel cells (e.g. Toyota's Mirai[1]), they don’t have hydrogen combustion engines (although there are exceptions, Mazda made some prototypes about 10 years ago). > But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems? In some countries [2] pedals must be present in order to classify the vehicle as a moped. It's a regulatory requirement and I don't expect most moped riders to use pedals on a daily basis. [1] https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped#Individual_countries/regions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped#Individual_countries/reg...
leemailll 4y ago
Honda sells e-bike in China (https://item.jd.com/10051889312613.html https://item.jd.com/10051889312613.html), which is not as powerful due to regulation

156 points by ilamont 4y ago

They’ve been teasing an EV Cub for a few years now. Excited to try it out. I just saw shots from some friends in Japan here this weekend where they were putting an electric CR through its paces (their offroad only dirtbike line). I believe it was a Honda GO related event. Like the US, Japan allows people to ride a 50cc (or equivalent ev) moped or scooter on the street (when license plated) with their regular car license, which is why they’re going after this size.

hprotagonist 4y ago

Awesome. this is the niche that will win.

tiahura 4y ago

The next Aero 50.

rwbt 4y ago

Love the designs - but how is this better than a modern electric pedal assist or throttle controlled electric ebike? They made a lot of sense during the oil crisis but why would anyone really bother getting licensed, paying for registration and maintaining insurance when you can get an electric bike and get a very similar experience without all that hassle? I'm not trying to be dismissive mind you, but genuinely curious if this potential market will be big enough to address it.

alwayslikethis 4y ago
In many countries, (incl. US), you can ride a moped with just a car license. The registration is greatly simplified compared to car and insurance wouldn't be that much.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  According to the California DMV, you can't ride a moped without a motorcycle licence: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-registration/motorcycles-mopeds-and-scooters/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-regis... "You must have a motorcycle license (M1 or M2) to drive a moped."
  - dharmab 4y ago
    California is unusually restrictive compared to the rest of the country.
  - JamesianP 4y ago
    I looked into it years ago and a moped license was way easier to get than a motorcycle license. Now it appears they both have the same requirements, just the M2 is more restricted in what it can be used for.
  - graton 4y ago
    In Oregon if it is less than 50cc and can not go faster than 30mph on a flat level surface than it only requires a normal car driver's license. No motorcycle endorsement is required. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf
- Markoff 4y ago
  I'd say in most of the EU you can ride <125ccm motorbike with regular car license, so this changes nothing at least in EU. Heck, I don't even know what is supposed to be "50ccm" ebike, ebikes are limited by laws in regard to their power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh), not volume. Specifically EU directive says for pedal assisted ebike is this: "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling" Everything else ain't ebike and requires some sort of license. Though of course the reality is police won't be checking every single ebike on road and they have no way to meaure the power.
LgWoodenBadger 4y ago
50cc mopeds don’t generally require a motorcycle endorsement in the US.
- eli 4y ago
  an ebike doesn't even require a driver license
  - phire 4y ago
    Electric Mopeds sit in a middle-ground, with more power, higher top speeds than ebikes but more restrictive licensing rules. For example, an ebike in Europe is speed limited to 25kph, and just small motors that can only output 250W.
  - JusticeJuice 4y ago
    ebikes have power limits or speed limits depending on the country.
    - eli 4y ago
      So do “50cc” mopeds.
zxexz 4y ago
I don’t have a response to your first question - some modern e-bikes are very capable. But in many jurisdictions registering a moped is extremely easy - in MA and VT at least, it’s honor system. In MA you have to go into the RMV but don’t have to have anything beyond the bill of sale and a VIN. VT you can even send in the form, you don’t even have to live in VT. You usually have to have a learners permit at the very least - sometimes a drivers license. I’m sure there are some places where you need a motorcycle endorsement, but I’m not aware of any in the US.
dharmab 4y ago
In my state a moped only requires a driver's license. No title, registration, insurance or M class endorsement required.
ehnto 4y ago
The difference is in the on-road experience. With this you are classified as a motor vehicle and can expect to keep up with and maneuver through road speed traffic. That's actually what pedal-assist restrictions are all about, clearly delineating the bicycles from the motorbikes. This also manages expectations for users. You shouldn't expect to play in traffic at 60+kmph as a cyclist, and you shouldn't expect to be riding your much heavier, much faster electric moped on bike paths. The form factors can make that line blurry, you could totally have a bicycle that can do 60+ and you could easily have a moped that looks small enough to be a bicycle. Hence the regulations to clear up any confusion. From a personal exprience point of view, I would expect to be able to comfortably wear leathers and a moto helmet and not negatively impact the ride. On a pedal assist bicycle there is no way I am wearing leathers and because of that I don't want to be going 60-80kmph in traffic unprotected, I want to be on seperated bike paths.
- pavon 4y ago
  When I bought my scooter the 50cc models I test drove could not reliably keep up with 30-35mph traffic. My 125cc does fine up to 45mph except on a steep incline.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- etrautmann 4y ago
  and yet here in NYC, we have people taking electric mopeds down the Hudson greenway and other protected pedestrian+bike paths.
  - CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
    I visited NYC this summer and observed a significant volume of gas mopeds on the protected bike paths. Gross!
  - ehnto 4y ago
    Oh I believe that, NYC is chaos. I bet people use those gas powered one-wheels wherever they want too
JusticeJuice 4y ago
Ebikes have restrictions on power, or speed in most places. Of course this is largely not enforced when people DIY, but a legit company can't just bring a mass produced 2000w ebike to market.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I guess that's all the same questions for mopeds everywhere?

rurounijones 4y ago

I am kind of surprised that there is no obvious mount for a basket on the back (or front?) for small amounts of shopping and whatnot. Seems like it would increase the utility of it massively. My friends in Paris who use mopeds a lot would definitely miss the carrying capacity, modest as it is. The footboard looks wide enough to place some bags in but not everyone likes that.

dharmab 4y ago
Especially since the usualy underseat storage is missing. (Aside: Thanks for OverlordBot!)
- rurounijones 4y ago
  Hahaha, HN is the last place I expected OverlordBot to pop up :D Thanks very much.
seb1204 4y ago
I assume they will come later as options. Expensive subscription options...

ck2 4y ago

Sadly in the US they are going to be flattened by rolling coal in those monster sized pickups and SUVs Maybe not even on purpose, the profile in traffic is almost invisible in the morning before sunrise, no-one is looking at the road anymore but rather their phone and no law seems able to stop them without enforcement.

andrewflnr 4y ago
No more than the ebikes, mopeds, and motorcycles already on the road, so that doesn't really change much...

fomine3 4y ago

50cc category is important in Japan because it's really easy and cheap to get license, and some high school students are allowed only to get 50cc license.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kh1 4y ago
But there are people who ride illegal ebikes that go faster than 24km/h and I have never seen them getting caught
- filoleg 4y ago
  50cc scooters/bikes typically can go around 30-60mph (50-100kmph), so that comparison feels a bit unfair.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    Funnily, 50cc scooters/bikes are limited to 30km/h max! It's common to exceed the limit a bit.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      How does that work when going downhill? 30km/h at the crest can easily turn into 60+ km/h at the bottom if it's steep.
      - schroeding 4y ago
        Of course, the manufacturer knows all the drivers are responsible and follow the law exactly and thus brake to not exceed the speed limit. ;-P
      - numpad0 4y ago
        It’s just the legal !important speed limit for 50cc class(“Type I bicycles with prime mover”).

mabil 4y ago

I love the rugged design of ubco, and I believe they are working on making a legal street version of it. https://ubco.co.nz/ https://ubco.co.nz/ edit: they already do have an on-road version of it :) https://ubco.co.nz/pages/rv https://ubco.co.nz/pages/rv

wanderr 4y ago
I test drove one of these. It's a lot of fun but having power to the front wheel while cornering feels extremely dangerous to me.

metadat 4y ago

I think I see some suspension travel up front.. Think you could go mountain biking with it?

Mengkudulangsat 4y ago

Can we please just loose the pedals? Pedals on these feels like a pathetic attempt at regulatory arbitrage.

lovemenot 4y ago
So what if it is exactly that? If pedals opens those regulated markets which Honda has surely researched, then all the better.
timbit42 4y ago
In some countries, including mine, having pedals means a license isn't required to drive it. I'm surprised they didn't make the pedals and cranks fold out of the way when not in use.

hammock 4y ago

Nowhere for helmet storage or a grocery bag

timbit42 4y ago
Gotta keep the price low and have something for owners to pay for in the future.

Ptchd 4y ago

LoL, why does it have a chain and is missing a basket?

dharmab 4y ago
Chain drive is more efficient than belt drive.
- Tepix 4y ago
  But why no in-hub motor? Must be because of the silly pedals.
  - quesera 4y ago
    According to the article, and plausibly in the photos, there is a hub motor. The pedals and chain are freewheeling, and assist only. Spacing and pedal arm length look to me like they'd be very uncomfortable though.
    - Ptchd 4y ago
      yeah sure doesn't look like a Honda design
andrewflnr 4y ago
> intended to be ridden like scooters but with pedals as a form of backup power.
- Ptchd 4y ago
  Wow I'm blind... I missed those pedals. Thanks

megablast 4y ago

Anything is better than cars.

timbit42 4y ago
I can think of worse things.

defrost 4y ago

It's not a real bike until someone crosses the Simpson Desert riding one [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3T_vM3VBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3T_vM3VBI Who's game?

Tepix 4y ago
So this would probably require a trailer with solar panels? The motor has 4kW peak but surely uses much less while merely going constant speed.

hadlock 4y ago

This is a big deal. Honda sells more step through scooters than anyone else. Particularly in SE Asia. Also it has pedals which technically makes it a moped/electric bicycle. That said, it's a Honda. You can trace the current 50cc and 125cc step through scooters all the way back to the 1960s particularly the engine-frame bolt pattern. This makes interchangeable parts safe to design and manufacture as there's an enormous market for them. You could call them the Chevy small block 350 V8 of motorcycles. Honda finally releasing a 50cc equivalent electric moped will instantly create an entire sub market of compatible parts and, unlike every other ebike manufacturer out there, Honda will still be there in 20 years, and you'll be able to buy parts for this off the shelf in 120+ counties worldwide.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago

so 50cc is "small" moped ? >This brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph and no more than 4kW of power; for comparison, i have been using an hero electric "optima" bought exactly 3 years ago which has a motor of 250 watts and battery of 1kwh. https://heroelectric.in/bike/atria-lx/#specs https://heroelectric.in/bike/atria-lx/#specs here is an updated version of this.it is still the same insides. here is my actual usage pattern. 180Kg weight limit and i have consistently pulled 210Kg+ on this. the battery has severely degraded to a point my first Km range was 50km while today i can only manage 20. i have used this machine in rain, snow, sun and all the 6 seasons of the valley and has performed admirably. plus the cost is also around $1000 or less so i don't really see why anyone would need anything more? sure if you need high speeds and all, you can buy high speed versions

Toutouxc 4y ago
No way that something with a 180 kg weight limit only has a 250W motor. I know it’s written on the website, but that simply wouldn’t work. 250 W is weaker than the Xiaomi Mi Scooter, which is a lightweight kick scooter already criticized for being too weak.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  well i am "using" it and the battery is only 48v24ah so if the 48*24=1152wh(approx), how else am i supposed to get 50km from a single charge?
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  https://pureev.in/etrance-neo/ https://pureev.in/etrance-neo/ https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/ETrance_Plus_Datasheet.pdf https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/ETr... datasheet for "etrance+" https://pureev.in/epluto/ https://pureev.in/epluto/ https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/EPluto_Datasheet.pdf https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/EPl... datasheet for " epluto" here this is the base model and people pretty much use this as alternatives to regular 110/125cc petrol scooters. third company selling 250watt scooters https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/r30/r30/ https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/r30/r30/ https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/lite/lite/ https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/lite/lite/ and these are "hot selling" vehicles and i own epluto and optima (optima is not on website as that was refreshed since) and 210+ as i've already said so yeah

jakub_jo 4y ago

There's also a Vespa limited to 45 km/h: https://www.vespa.com/en_EN/models/elettrica/elettrica-45-kmh-3-5-kw-electric-moped/ https://www.vespa.com/en_EN/models/elettrica/elettrica-45-km...

Stevvo 4y ago

Electric mopeds are an extremely well established market overseas. In China both annual production and ownership have been higher than cars every year for the last 15 years!

marsven_422 4y ago

lovemenot 4y ago

This could be aiming at Gogoro and the like, which have a pretty good sized market in Taiwan and are just beginning to expand from there. It'll be interesting to see whether Honda follows Gogoro with swapable batteries, charging infrastructure, sharing apps etc. These machines look more robust than an e-bicycle: better suited to rental markets, and perhaps in countries with lower quality road infrastructure.

riffraff 4y ago

The Piaggio 1 has been around for a while in Europe, and I think it's in the same category, I'm not sure why this is a big news. https://www.piaggio.com/gb_EN/models/piaggio-1/piaggio-1-1-2-kw-2021/ https://www.piaggio.com/gb_EN/models/piaggio-1/piaggio-1-1-2...

mytailorisrich 4y ago
In China there have been millions of electric scooters on the roads for years...
- hashmush 4y ago
  Yup, I think some (all?) cities have banned ICE scooters. I only ever saw electric ones there (though this was 5 years ago now).
- riffraff 4y ago
  sure, but the article talks about regulations in Europe, designs being filed in Europe, categories in Europe etc. It seemed euro-centric.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  They're around Europe as well, in fact they've overtaken sales of petrol scooters recently [0]. This one is low power and has pedals though, which makes me wonder if it's trying to compete with pedal assist electric bikes... and why, since those are much more prevalent. Unless this one has a much bigger battery I guess. [0] https://mijn.bovag.nl/actueel/nieuws/2022/februari/meer-elektrische-scooters-dan-benzinescooters-verk https://mijn.bovag.nl/actueel/nieuws/2022/februari/meer-elek...
odiroot 4y ago
This is a scooter, not a moped. Then again I don't see why does Honda feel the need to introduce pedals.
- izacus 4y ago
  What's the difference? It fits within the 50cc drivers license.

lifeisstillgood 4y ago

We come back to urban design not vehicle design. This is a fine vehicle I am sure, and fits in similar category to eBikes etc. Small, designed for town and city, can be lugged up and down steps so kept in non-car spaces. But vulnerable to a ton of fast moving metal. We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car. - seperate lanes and roads for "vulnerable vehicles", for manual vs motor powered. - license all powered and manual vehicles - treat them all the same. (this most importantly includes insurance. I am a bike rider hit by a car and still not seen a penny. But if I had a giant bureaucratic insurance company on my side it would have been sorted already. And the externality priced in better. - All the other arguments on StrongTowns, 15 minute cities etc. It's too late for Houston but maybe we can save other towns.

Shank 4y ago
> We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car. I agree with you philosophically but how would this work in practice? Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas. It's like, if a giant earthquake flattened LA sure, that would be a great excuse to redesign the entire city. But the vast majority of the infra isn't going anywhere, and nobody is gonna float redesigning a city with the level of NIMBY-goodness here. Practically speaking, a "50cc-rated EV moped" is a great way to, at minimum, start to get people thinking less about cars, in my opinion. It's a necessary bridge to a future that's probably decades away.
- toyg 4y ago
  > Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas. I mean, in Europe we've largely repurposed medieval towns to car usage, with much worse constraints in terms of preservation of historical buildings. US cities can be much more radical and much more easily, if they really want to.
- Fradow 4y ago
  It's much more complicated in practice, but in theory, it's pretty simple: convert existing car lanes to bike lanes. Chaos will ensue as the construction work and reduced road throughput inevitably generate huge jams. That chaos is a feature, not a bug. It's meant to discourage people from using their car. If you keep car usage convenient, people will continue to use their car. Any measure that makes using a car inconvenient is a good thing. Low road throughput, high parking cost, low number of parking spots etc... I've seen it played out in Paris, which was very much a car city two decades ago, and can now be described as a bike-friendly city: it's far from being on-par with Netherlands standard, but good enough that lots of people chose a bike over other methods of transportation, and cars are generally one of the slowest form of transportation in a city (behind public transit, bikes or other 2-wheelers).

Markoff 4y ago

Nobody cares about some 50cc category in EU, the definition according EU directive is about power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh): "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling" Article doesn't mention electric engine power. Obviously if they would ditch pedals they have no chance. And I'd say most of the EU countries require regular car license up to <125cc, but yeah, some have lower requirements for <50cc mopeds.

Bouncingsoul1 4y ago
You might want to review the EU driver licence classes then. Class AM "Two-wheel vehicles or three-wheel vehicles with a maximum design speed of not more than 45 kilometres per hour (28 mph) and with a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimetres (3.1 cu in). "
- Markoff 4y ago
  As I said this is electric bike, nothing to do with cylinders in EU, but power output of 250 W, so completely different category from what you mention and as I said regarding ICU motorbikes, you are fine with normal car license up to 125ccm and if you don't have car license then it's slightly easier maybe to get 50ccm license, but still nothing to do with ELECTRIC bike.
  - avian 4y ago
    > regarding ICU motorbikes, you are fine with normal car license up to 125ccm This sounds like class A1 vehicle (up to 125 cm3 for ICE, up to 11 kW engine power, up to 0.1 kW/kg engine power per mass of vehicle) With my class B license (the usual normal car license most people have), the only two-wheel motor vehicles I'm allowed to operate are class AM mentioned by the parent comment above. For operating class A1 you need a class A license.
    - 4y ago

drumhead 4y ago

Super Cub Electric? Would be a game changer especially if it wasnt premium priced.

puzzlingcaptcha 4y ago
There already is an electric Cub called EV Cub. This however has pedals which is all about classifying as a moped.

lk251 4y ago

forgive my off topicness but I wish someone would buy the Boosted Boards IP from Lime and open source the firmware. Boosted Boards were epic.

langsoul-com 4y ago

No point going on early on electric scooters, just wait for the tech to get better and better.

iefbr14 4y ago
Not to mention the pricing. you can buy a 350watt stickblender for under $10 ;)

hoseja 4y ago

Finally! It's been astounding me people would use electric kick-scooters (or bikes, but mostly the scooters) instead of this form factor.

bluescrn 4y ago
Small electric 'kick scooters' can be easily stored/charged indoors, even if you're in a city centre apartment and need to get it up/down stairs. That's not so practical to do with an e-bike, and certainly not doable with something like this.
- Stevvo 4y ago
  It's perfectly doable if you have an elevator or guarded parking. Enter any Chinese apartment building and you will find scooters like this one stored inside people's apartments on every floor. They only weigh about 100KG so elevators can handle them fine.

ritonlajoie 4y ago

Interesting for small commute. I am from France and driving a Piaggio MP3 400cc for 10 years (and other stuff before). New laws in Paris are pushing people to buy electric. For example, since this summer, parking in the street with a motorbike/scooter is paid if it's not an electric engine. I'm myself waiting for the delivery of a Super Soco CPX. Its range and power isn't what I wanted, but I guess I don't have a choice, my MP3 is failing (50K+ kilometers) and I guess I need to transition to electric too. I tested the CPX, it's not very powerful and has only a 70km range (1 battery, can have 2 batteries for 140km range if you need). It goes as fast as 90km/h (130km/h on my MP3) and will prevent me from taking the highway to get out of Paris. But I guess we all have to make an effort ! Oh also my back will not thank me when it's time to get the 20kg battery out and take it home to charge it.

thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
>Oh also my back will not thank me when it's time to get the 20kg battery out and take it home to charge it. For comparison, this is the weight of an empty barbell.
- seb1204 4y ago
  What is a barbell you ask? The metal stick where you put on the weights each side in the gym. Had to look it up.
  - jfk13 4y ago
    Not to be confused with a barbel -- which is a fish.
    - waste_monk 4y ago
      Apparently the largest barbels can grow up to 10kg. So the battery is worth approximately two barbels. It may have been more fitting to call the fish dumbbels.
- machinawhite 4y ago

amelius 4y ago

No back seat?

timbit42 4y ago
Future upgrade.

sdze 4y ago

Would prefer the gasoline variants.

llampx 4y ago

I live in Berlin and have a Motorroller, essentially a 50cc Chinese Vespa clone with a 4-stroke motor and about 100 km on a tank. I love it. It is slow but fast enough, in the summer it is invaluable but mainly if one can filter through traffic at lights and park on the sidewalks. Without those advantages it is slower than cars or trains. I wanted an electric one, but I was afraid of battery longevity, the good ones cost 3x the price, so I thought I'll buy this one and get an electric one next time. Now there are more electric choices, but range is still limited and they are probably more often targeted by thieves. It remains to be seen whether mine, now 5 years old, will survive till the next summer and whether I'll buy an electric one next time.

dalbasal 4y ago
Ultimately, the attention received by thieves and vandals is the major factor for 2 wheel vehicles. For whatever reason, a 500cc will get messed with a lot less than a 50. I have a powerful "electric bike." It does the 50cc job well, imo, despite speed and range being lower. I still use my car more, because I can park a car and not worry about it. When taking my e-bike to a cafe, I strategize parking in advance, worry as I sip and also carry around my helmet & battery. Cars are easier. Lately, I decided that a jacket and heavy shoes and gloves are necessary. Just because it's legally a bicycle... 50kmh is 50kmh and fingers are important to me. So, while light motorcycles really are the perfect vehicle in many instances... the thieves guild's policy on vehicles under 100kg really hampers the category.

OliverJones 4y ago

Interesting. Honda's core competency has long been internal combustion engines (ICE). My household has, for a long time, had a Honda car, motor scooter (110cc), and lawnmower. We don't need a generator, but if we did we would pick Honda. I was an early adopter of their Insight hybrid car, almost a quarter-century ago. That was focused on battery support for a very light ICE, not on replacing the ICE. It was effective. I've long believed they were all in on hydrogen fuel as the next big thing, because it would preserve their internal combustion tech investment. And, I've long believed that was an existential mistake. They, working with Toyota, could have pulled it off by pouring bucketloads of upfront capital into refueling infrastructure (like Tesla did with their Supercharger network). But they didn't. Pilot projects with short-range delivery vans don't cut it. It's about time they started working on BEV. But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems? (No seat height adjustment is evident and they're far too widely spaced to let a rider get any power without rocking back and forth.) There are plenty of decent e-bikes in this market space. Most of them leverage the existing cycling parts and service capabilities . Honda's coming late to this party. We shall see.

itsoktocry 4y ago
>But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems? Doesn't this allow the bike to pass as a 'bicycle' when it comes to restricted pathways or trails? >There are plenty of decent e-bikes in this market space. As your comment demonstrates, Honda has long-standing brand loyalty that counts for a lot.
- tim333 4y ago
  For a long time - maybe still 49cc "mopeds" were a thing in the UK as you could use them without a license whereas for a 49cc motorcycle you did need one. I bought one once - the pedals could be folded out if you needed and were kind of hopeless as the bike was much too heavy to be pedaled in a useful way. It was ok as a small motorcycle - top speed about 40mph. I think now for that category they've dropped the pedal requirement but reduced the speed to 30mph.
mastazi 4y ago
> I've long believed they were all in on hydrogen fuel as the next big thing, because it would preserve their internal combustion tech investment. I'm not sure about Honda specifically, but in most cases hydrogen cars are actually electric vehicles with hydrogen fuel cells (e.g. Toyota's Mirai[1]), they don’t have hydrogen combustion engines (although there are exceptions, Mazda made some prototypes about 10 years ago). > But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems? In some countries [2] pedals must be present in order to classify the vehicle as a moped. It's a regulatory requirement and I don't expect most moped riders to use pedals on a daily basis. [1] https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped#Individual_countries/regions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped#Individual_countries/reg...

leemailll 4y ago

Honda sells e-bike in China (https://item.jd.com/10051889312613.html https://item.jd.com/10051889312613.html), which is not as powerful due to regulation