23 ms·

Suicide

• raganwald 15y ago
  My thanks to @knowtheory for pointing out that suicidal people often feel alone/apart/disconnected from other people. I struggle with this, myself.
  • llambda 15y ago
    Thank you for the post, raganwald. It's always good to have a reminder, no matter how many times it may have been said before. I personally really appreciate it.
  • abstractbill 15y ago
    Minor typo: "hard one by" => "hard done by". Great post though, on a very important topic. Thanks raganwald.
    • getsat 15y ago
      Also, "felling" => "feeling".
  • kmfrk 15y ago
    This point is also relevant with New Year's Eve coming up. Invite a couple of extra people to your New Year's Eve party whom you might not have thought of inviting, and you might do more good than you think. It's also worth mentioning that being alone is perfectly fine, but when people become lonely, it's something that needs to be addressed. It's all a state of mind, after all.
    • unobfuscate 15y ago
      That's brilliant advice, I will make sure to send out a few extra invites this year!
    • loceng 15y ago
      I'm not planning to do anything for NYE myself. I don't particularly even want to be around my family as that can really be not fun at all, further isolation is actually a better option out of those two.
    • waterhouse 15y ago
      Btw, I figured this out at some point: A cursory examination will likely not demonstrate loneliness. If I am lonely, then I will be happy when I'm in the presence of any of my friends, and so I'll appear happy and just fine to them. I'll even feel happy, in case they ask me how I am. Loneliness is thus peculiarly difficult to diagnose except deliberately. [I suppose that once you know this, you might try to detect loneliness as "being really happy to see you" or something. Obviously you might find false positives (being happy for other reasons), or false negatives (if they don't feel you're a very close friend). Still, it's a starting point. The cure, of course, is to continue to be with your friend for as long as he wants (to the degree possible), let him interact with you, and encourage him to share his feelings and his doings with you. (But no pressure. Encouragement is a friend who's happy to be with you and happy to hear anything you have to say without giving unasked-for criticism, not one who asks you hard questions like "How are you?" Such a question can be helpful to establish that you're interested or willing to listen, but it can also be difficult and annoying to answer, so don't press if he stumbles on it.) This is kind of a natural resolution, isn't it? I've said that, in response to seeing that your friend wants to be with you, you should continue to be with your friend; and that you should encourage him to share things that he probably would like to share with you (in a way that isn't unpleasant or difficult). This is kind of "duh, that's how to be a good friend", and "that's how to make good conversation, at least in this situation". But it's probably helpful to have things like this written down; not everyone has figured out or internalized every part of it by himself.]
  • knowtheory 15y ago
    Hey, no worries. I think it's worth asking people to think about the people they know and ask themselves "when's the last time I had a good/meaningful conversation with that person?" That's the flipside to your post i think. It's not enough to tell those in despair "don't give up hope". We should reach out and find out how those around us actually are.
• mrb 15y ago
  This reminds me of http://www.google.com/search?q=+commit+suicide http://www.google.com/search?q=+commit+suicide which returns a help message (generally a phone number to a suicide prevention service in your country).
  • zalew 15y ago
    for me it doesn't http://i.imgur.com/1d8pK.png http://i.imgur.com/1d8pK.png
    • chc 15y ago
      It gives me a US toll-free number. They probably only show it to people for whom it probably wouldn't be an international call, so if you're outside the US or using a proxy, that would explain it.
  • MattBearman 15y ago
    Neither does it for me (I'm in the UK)
    • JonnieCache 15y ago
      Yep. It'd be nice if they added some different numbers for different countries. Paging Matt...
      • Matt_Cutts 15y ago
        Getting the numbers for different countries and making sure that they're current might be tricky, so I don't know how hard this would be, but I'll pass the request on.
  • xer0 15y ago
    Ironic that, for me, the first hit after the telephone number (same one raganwald lists) is a Wikipedia article on suicide methods.
• cellurl 15y ago
  'should mention that the call isn't tracked or whatever.
• simon 15y ago
  Wonderful thought and worthwhile effort. And I see that Facebook is also making similar efforts. I'm glad to see that. My meta-thought about this is how do you make this proactive instead of passive? If you don't visit raganwald or Facebook, how will you get any encouragement this Christmas season? I've often thought that some corners of the Internet could benefit from a virtual chaplain who could approach members of their online community if they suspected something was wrong. Or they could be a low threat pre-suicide (or other issue) conversation and make themself very approachable for those moving in that direction to try to steer them onto more healthy directions. Is this a good idea, or is it just my inner pastor thinking out loud?
  • nyellin 15y ago
    I don't think it's that easy to tell, especially not on the internet. A better question might be, how do you reach out to people suffering in silence and convince them it is okay to talk? (An anonymous online suicide hotline which doesn't report cases to the authorities might help, but I suspect it would be trolled.) What Facebook effort are you referring to?
    • 18pfsmt 15y ago
      I just heard this on NPR this morning, so I may not have the specifics: Apparently, FB will provide a link that somebody can click if one of their friends writes something that friend thinks indicates their friend may be having suicidal thoughts, and their friend will get a message for a real-time chat with someone from a suicide prevention place.
    • nbm 15y ago
      It is probably this: http://www.chron.com/news/article/APNewsBreak-Facebook-aims-to-help-prevent-suicide-2398921.php http://www.chron.com/news/article/APNewsBreak-Facebook-aims-... (I work at Facebook, but am not involved in this feature.)
    • simon 15y ago
      The FB effort is this one: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397551,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397551,00.asp And your point about it not being easy to tell is very true. This is why the thought about the virtual chaplain. People would hopefully carry enough real-world positive thoughts about chaplains into their virtual dealings to feel comfortable "talking" with an online chaplain. If a community had a designated chaplain, that person would be known to the other members of the community and anyone with issues would be encouraged to have confidential communication with that person. (Chaplains being licensed religious ministers are usually permitted by the law to keep the contents of conversations private ... except in a few very specific cases such as child abuse mandatory reporting situations.)
• dragonquest 15y ago
  Ok, that was a little scary as a title considering the URL was raganwald's blog. I had to click it fast to ensure that all was safe. Perhaps a better title, atleast on HN is in order?
  • rhizome 15y ago
    Yeah, for me it seemed that if someone needs to see his words that the headline might not be the best motivator.
• mynameishere 15y ago
  The Christmas/suicide link is a myth you know.
  • kqr2 15y ago
    As detailed in: http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp
  • deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  • raganwald 15y ago
    Yes it is: http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp Snopes suggest it falls slightly over the holiday from 34 per million people to 30 per million people and then rises to 41 per million people at New Year’s.
    • dextorious 15y ago
      It might be a myth, but but snopes' 2 obscure references to some "studies" that cover a tiny region of the world are hardly compelling evidence. I want more proof either for or against this notion. Snopes stories have the same problem that urban legends have: people are quick to believe them without checking it more, and for the same reason, feeling superior to those who don't know (the myth|the debunking).
      • stonemetal 15y ago
        Snopes tries to combat this by having fake stories as well. They are all segregated into The Repository Of Lost Legends(TROLL) section of the website though.
  • llambda 15y ago
    A quick Google search does seem to confirm this and at reputable sources such as Psychology Today and the Mayo Clinic. However that should not be a reason to dismiss increased awareness especially as an outreach to those experiencing depression and suicidal thoughts. In other words, it's always a good time to talk about it and to try to help. If the holidays increase awareness and get people talking about it I don't see that as a bad thing even if there isn't a statistical increase in suicide. Edit: typo and formatting
• narag 15y ago
  A couple of weeks ago, I saw a reference to a meetup that points to a mail list: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Unfortunately there is no direct link to the message, but here is the pasted header, if someone is interested in looking for it in the archive: Forwarded message From: Mitch Altman Date: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM Subject: [Noisebridge-discuss] Geeks & Depression meetup To: NoiseBridge Discuss
  • sp332 15y ago
    The archives are "private" (not sure how private, but I didn't feel like signing up), but I found copy here: http://strangersinthebedroom.blogspot.com/2011/11/you-are-not-alone.html http://strangersinthebedroom.blogspot.com/2011/11/you-are-no... Full text: From: Mitch Altman Date: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM Subject: [Noisebridge-discuss] Geeks & Depression meetup To: NoiseBridge Discuss Geeks & Depression meetup Tuesday, 6-December, 7:30pm No Starch Press, 38 Ringold Street, San Francisco, CA 94103 (near Civic Center BART Station) Let's have a meetup where geeks can talk about depression and suicide. You are not alone. Share your story, if you like. Share a friend's story. Or just hang out and listen. Let's make it OK to talk about these things so that we don't feel so alone with our feelings of being alone and depressed or suicidal. This is not a support group -- none of us are trained professionals, but we can get together in a safe, confidential space to talk about depression and suicide -- an important part of life for so many of us geeks. Mitch. So it's already happened I guess. Anyone know how it went?
    • c3o 15y ago
      There is a second meetup tomorrow, as far as I can tell: https://www.facebook.com/maltman23/posts/10150415871850918 https://www.facebook.com/maltman23/posts/10150415871850918 Mitch's Google Group for the meetups is here: http://groups.google.com/group/geeksanddepression http://groups.google.com/group/geeksanddepression
• landonhowell 15y ago
  Kudos to raganwald for saying what many think, but never muster the courage to say it.
• oomkiller 15y ago
  This is a good little post, but you actually are branded in the US if you seek paid treatment for depression. See this: http://behavioral.kaiserpapers.org/prozacharm.html http://behavioral.kaiserpapers.org/prozacharm.html
  • deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  • martingordon 15y ago
    The article doesn't state when it's from, but it does mention a 2001 Georgetown study, which means that it's probably from around 2001-2002. It looks like the health care reform of 2010 prevents insurance companies from denying you coverage due to pre-existing conditions (starting in 2014): http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0324/Health-care-reform-bill-101-rules-for-preexisting-conditions http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0324/Health-care-...
    • rdl 15y ago
      Even earlier in some states, too. If I were uninsurable, I'd give serious consideration to moving someplace like Seattle.
      • MartinCron 15y ago
        Move to Seattle and the lack of sunlight will pretty much guarantee that you need antidepressants. Spoken as someone who knows.
        • philwelch 15y ago
          They make lamps for that.
          • MartinCron 15y ago
            Absolutely, and many people have claimed they have worked for them. My mileage has varied.
• mixmax 15y ago
  This is important, and startup founders are especially vulnerable. The expectations, both from the world and founders themselves, are often impossibly high - afterall there can be only one facebook and one Google. Failure in startups isn't the same as failure in a corporate job. Startups are so much harder that if you make it to the first line of code you've already beat 90% of the people that want to do a startup. If you launch you've beat 99%. If you actually become ramen profitable you're a superstar in my eyes. The problem of suicide and depression among startup founders is more pronounced than you might think, both because of the high expectations, but also because the founder is the one who needs to always be positive, egg others on, and never show weakness. Often while constantly doubting his (or her) own abilities and chances of success. This is incredibly hard and can end in catastrophe if you don't talk to someone about it. It even happened for a ycombinator company (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=859117 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=859117). Remember to enjoy the journey - it's fun, and if you fail you'll be held in extremely high regard amongst fellow entrepreneurs and HN'ers for having tried. Most people just dream, the people that actually try are stars. If you have any questions, or just want to talk please contact me. My mail is in my profile.
  • seiji 15y ago
    You hit the cause in your third paragraph. Suicidal ideation is a process starting with falling short of expectations then blaming yourself for the shortfall. You start incorrectly rationalizing reasons why everything is your fault and how nothing can get better. Negativity permeates every thought. Your world breaks down into tiny logical blocks and you rationalize why everything is hopeless. The only way out is to break the chain of elevating mental isolation and negativity. It's easier to stop it in the nascent stages. Try not to blame yourself. The world is a big place and we have so much to do.
    • _delirium 15y ago
      > The only way out is to break the chain of elevating mental isolation and negativity. How exactly to do that is the tricky part, though (and not just tricky for individuals, but the subject of much debate in psychiatry). Possibilities include pharmacological intervention, therapy, or some sort of change in circumstances. The latter is a really large set of options, but also poorly understood: there are semi-regular reports of people completely changing outlook after significant changes in circumstances (e.g. changing careers), but it's very hard to come up with rigorous evaluation of the success of that "treatment option", because it's not very easy to run a controlled study, and not always an available option.
• lisper 15y ago
  http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3292885 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3292885
• seiji 15y ago
  Posts like these are dangerous. If someone feels horrible, seeing "You may feel like you are alone and nobody is as bad a person as you are" just makes the person feel worse. You can't shove detached, inexperienced logic in the face of someone with temporarily broken brain chemistry. For a more thorough understanding see http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_7_32/ai_n29111781/ http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_7_32/ai_n291...
  • raganwald 15y ago
    Thank you. What do you suggest?
    • seiji 15y ago
      I've never been entirely sure. A while ago I made http://suicidescale.com/ http://suicidescale.com/ but the wording still feels awkward to me. You have to strike a balance between explaining and understanding without sounding condescending. Explaining the temporary condition can help so people know they aren't alone (knowing you are one of millions who have had the same exact thought processes is a wake up call). Mentioning the processes can be caused by certain foods and medications in some people seems like a good idea too. ("Feeling suicidal? Did you just eat twelve pancakes with half a gallon of syrup? All the sugars have screwed you up for a while. Sleep it off. Did you just start a new antibiotic and now you want to jump off a bridge? Sleep it off. Call your doctor to get different meds. Your brain will reset.")
      • ollerac 15y ago
        Thank you so much for making that site. I've never come across such an accurate description of the symptoms of depression. I can relate to a lot of what's written there and it really helps put things into perspective. Meditating, exercising, and spending time with friends has helped me feel a lot better.
      • csomar 15y ago
        I just checked your website. I'm in the step 5. And, yes, I now feel this post is very dangerous because I never thought of suicide. Worse. I have recently dropped of colleague and don't have any friends right now. (didn't talk with a human for something like 15-20 days). Any quick remedies? I'm feeling more anxious.
• vigilanteweb 15y ago
  Suicide and mental illness need to been seen as conditions for which people need care and support rather than marginalization. Thank you for posting this.
• maeon3 15y ago
  Ive associated suicide as correlated with too much logic. It takes a litle bit of delusion deep in the core of your being to assign value, meaning and purpose to the process of moving molecules from a high energy state to lower energy states. Which is all we are doing. Convincing a logical person that delusion is needed is a tough sell. Ive had the experience of trying to talk some normality into a suicidal person. Its like two kids on a carnival ride and one is queasy and hates it and wants to get off. Every turn and moment is filled with a desire to get off. what does the kid having fun on the ride say to the one who wants off? It comes down to "stop feeling the way you do". the misrable one has to figure out the source of the pain and hijack a feedback loop happening in the subconscious mind.
  • _delirium 15y ago
    > Convincing a logical person that delusion is needed is a tough sell. Hence the large number of densely written words needed by existentialist philosophy and its associates, to attempt to justify it...
  • geoffschmidt 15y ago
    Counterpoint: it takes a little bit of delusion to seek some kind of "ultimate justification" to the naturally pleasuable and fulfilling experience that is life. My point is only: you can't break the symmetry with logic alone. Ultimately your priors/axioms/experiences come into play.
  • cpeterso 15y ago
    I found that Albert Camus' philosophy of Absurdism provided less depressing insights on Man's "existential crisis" that other existential philosophies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism According to Camus, one's freedom – and the opportunity to give life meaning – lies in the recognition of absurdity. In acknowledging the absurdity of seeking any inherent meaning, but continuing this search regardless, one can be happy, gradually developing his or her own meaning from the search alone.
    • 30vanquish 15y ago
• dextorious 15y ago
  I was feeling disconnected from everyone else, and then it dawned on me: well, duh! So, I closed HN and went to talk to ACTUAL physically present people.
• deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  • rjbond3rd 15y ago
    Avner, divorce is terrible but please believe me, you will get through it. Probably you can't imagine how, but life is full of surprises, and despite all the pain and loss you're experiencing now, the mystery of life is that you will end up wiser, stronger and happier. We don't get to see the future, yet it happens. If you like literature, it might help to try to view your situation as the hero's journey. Find some things that give you comfort, and just hang in there. For me, it was music that got me through the dark days. Immerse yourself, escape for small amounts of time, and find things to sustain you -- mentally, emotionally, physically. Reach out to your family and/or friends. Just endure any way you can, and you will come out on the other side of this.
  • beatle 15y ago
    1) family and friends are very important. spend A LOT of time with them. 2) exercise/sports. 3) take a break and go to hawaii or some place you like and have some fun with family and friends. 4) start dating. have fun. 5) if it becomes worse pls. seek professional help.
  • antirez 15y ago
    Marriage creates a very deep and important link between two people, but once one of the two sides no longer want to continue, it is better to look forward: you will not lost all the good things about your marriage, they are inside you, but you can discover that you can be so happy, with a different partner, again. It happened to me in the past, I felt lost, now I'm happy again with my new partner. Time is an important factor, don't be impatient, and focus again on yourself for a while.
    • justaname 15y ago
      I wish I could see marriage this way. After being with my girlfriend for almost 7 years, we married. Turns out, a few days before the wedding she started an affair with the leader of her theatre group, whom she invited with the group to our wedding apero, to play some theatre plays for us. Two months later, she spilled the beans, and so much shit has happened since, that I can't look at a couple without thinking which one is cheating the other or if they are cheating their partners together. Living in a country where there is no apparent social consequence for adultery has pushed me to the point where I don't want anything to do with what marriage or relationships represent. I left the country I grew up in to come here for this girl, and I'll be leaving without getting the divorce most people would want. I can't face it, and don't give a rat's ass about all of that anymore. Just getting my life back, and finding some inner peace again is all that matters. I've also left suicide as an option open, but I've got one plan ahead of that which is just to stand up and walk away, loose ends untied. My point is, the meaning that most people take for granted from an intimate relationship with someone, for me personally, has died. I'm no longer willing to sacrifice so much for someone else, because it took so much from everyday since. The trauma steals your life because your mind simply isn't capable of thinking of anything else anymore. The conflict of loving someone and at the same time hating that part of them that destroyed you, is a paradox that makes it impossible to be blind to the reality that you can no longer trust anyone with your life. I'll be glad to get out of this heartless country and back into the sunshine, where people have the balls to speak their mind and call a bastard a bastard, and a bitch a bitch.
• arry 15y ago
  So what? There are people who'd like to help you. So what? When I have suicidal thoughts, I don't care in the least about other people who could help me. Posts like this are helpful, of course, to raise the awareness of the problem, for other people. But when I, as a person thinks about suicide at the moment, look at this page, I just think: so what? and close the browser tab.
  • stonemetal 15y ago
    Exactly! That is one of the odd things about how people couch this. They always talk about coming to them for help. It has to be an intervention, not an offer for help. If my goal is to remove my cranium with a shotgun, and you have just offered to "help" (prevent me from achieving that goal), why in the hell would I ever seek your help? If someone comes to you for help they aren't seriously considering anything, buy them a beer and let them bitch, help them get in to see a shrink.
    • reallythatsbs 15y ago
      I concur. That is why I hate some of these types of blog posts. Even if you talked to someone those that are determined will do what they please. You can give them a 30sec elevator pitch of why not to, but ultimately leave them be as long as they aren't physically hurting others. People who have seriously contemplated know whether or not they are happy and weighed the options. At some point you say screw it. If you have goals or aspirations, dreams and can't achieve them then why keeping doing mediocre crap and be miserable. That is settling for 2nd..3rd etc. among other crap going on in their lives. I hate people that think they have a right to decide for others what I want to do with my life. Maybe consider the fact that the person weighed available options and that is their choice and hope that they find another route.
• lupatus 15y ago
  I made the following comment on a previous thread about suicide and think it also applies to this discussion: Both depression/suicide and dietary habits run in families and reoccur over multiple generations. Low serum cholesterol has been shown to be a suicide risk factor. [1] Get you cholesterol tested and try adding more good fats to your diet like oily cold-water fish (think salmon and sardines), butter, eggs (including the yolk!), and coconut milk/oil. You should aim for a low LDL and a high HDL number. [1] http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201103/low-cholesterol-and-suicide http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/...
• richardburton 15y ago
  I think that manic-depression is extremely common among startup entrepreneurs. The emotional roller-coaster one goes through when trying to create a company exacerbates any bipolar tendencies that might already be there. The great news is that when one is in the state of hypomania they are often at your most creative and productive. Read this description from a well-known, UK-based charity in the UK: "When I'm in a manic phase, I feel as though I am capable of anything and everything. This can be an amazing feeling, but I sometimes get frustrated and angry with people. Ideas flow constantly and quickly, as if my brain is on fast-forward. Everything happening in the world has significance in my life. But when I'm depressed, it's as if I'm completely crushed and living in slow motion. I feel capable of nothing. " http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/bipolar_disorder_manic_depression http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/bipolar...
• jnordell 15y ago
  Really important stuff. Man, Raganwald, thanks so much for this blog post. I think one important thing for anyone who's struggling to remember is that however you're feeling, it's not permanent. It's temporary. It will change. It might feel like things are never going to get better, but they will. It might feel like you're never going to feel better, but you will. You just have to hold tight to that fact, and trust it, even if it seems impossible. Then, six months or a year or three years from now, you'll be so glad that you hung on. I recently learned that a former student of mine committed suicide, and I think about him all the time. I wish I could have told him all this while he was alive. Thanks again for this post.
• phzbOx 15y ago
  If you want to talk in private about things, email me. phzbox at gmail.com. I know life is not supposed to be easy, but sometime it helps to be listened to.
• fs111 15y ago
  There is an organization called bluehackers, that tries the help the hacker-minded (aka hn-style) crowd with, to deal with those days: http://bluehackers.org/ http://bluehackers.org/ If it saves one life, it's worth it.
• zeratul 15y ago
  Let's not forget about the civic duty to call 911 if you suspect that your friend or your neighbor is suicidal. Emergency medicine has experts that can help much more than National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
  • hackinthebochs 15y ago
    This is the problem with how we deal with suicide. People seem to think its their "duty" to take the right to end your life away from you. Police and emergency services will go as far as tie you up and lock you in a padded cell to take this right away. What we need to is make it clear that suicide is your right. Treatment should be completely voluntary at all times. I would wager that the possibility of being restrained for days or weeks prevents many people from seeking help that could actually have made a difference. No, it isn't your civic duty to take the right to suicide away from someone. It's your duty as a friend and a human being to be a non-judgmental ear and shoulder. But in the end you have to respect their rights as an autonomous being.
    • zeratul 15y ago
      That might be true for some people but not everyone. Do you take into account situation where someone can get treatment and change ones mind? Since you, a non-medical professional, cannot make that judgment it's better to use as a rule to always call. Emergency visits are not about locking someone away but about figuring out a best treatment. Whether a person will follow the treatment or not that's a different story but at least someone was there for them, to listen, to help, and with means and experience to do it.
• raganwald 15y ago
  It wasn’t really right to put this in the post, but: http://samroweis1972-2010.blogspot.com/ http://samroweis1972-2010.blogspot.com/ I miss you, Sam.
  • theorique 15y ago
    I know him from high school. A great talent and a really nice guy, lost far too young.
• chc 15y ago
  This is a good thing to post. It's uncomfortable to talk about, but it needs to be done, so thank you, raganwald. That said, if I can offer just a small critique: I always found the sentiment of "Just talk to someone" to be insufficient, because even if other people might understand, sometimes you don't feel like they should have to understand. If I'm too weak to handle my circumstances myself, you'll reason, it would just make me an even worse person if I dumped that burden on somebody else. I think it's important to convey to depressed people that somebody wants to help, because that isn't necessarily obvious when even you don't like you. (Again, I don't mean to bash on raganwald's post by any means. It's just a perspective that I think it's easy to forget when you're not in that mindset.)
  • raganwald 15y ago
    Thank you! I am not a professional and there’s no particular reason that what I write is going to be helpful, and as others have pointed out, such appeals might sometimes be harmful. In the end, my moral dilemna feels like the “Politician’s Fallacy:” - Something must be done. - This is something. - Therefore we must do it. But doing the wrong thing is often worse than doing nothing at all.
    • chc 15y ago
      Oh, to be clear, I'm not a professional either. I've just known a few people with bad depression and that was something they struggled with — the feeling that getting help was a bad thing.
    • jodrellblank 15y ago
      This feels like one of those comments that I'm going to write with good intentions and come away with one downvote and no replies. Still; Your post is CYA advice. It's the socially acceptable least you could do - to encourage talking to a professional. not to imply that you owe more, or practically that you could do more, but... You want to do something You are afraid of making it worse Those constraints lead to a nonpost. Who is adult and hasn't heard of a suicide hotline? Why is financial advice to always spread your investments to minimise catastrophic risk in the conmments of a site encouraging people to go all-in on a startup life? Because its nuance free and safe advice, at worst it can't hurt you for recommending it. But what else can you do? Shrugs helplessly.
• FuzzyDunlop 15y ago
  I've been previously diagnosed with clinical depression (although I think I've managed to recover from it now, touch wood) and, stuff like this is so insanely difficult to process, let alone understand. A depressed person faces not only the pressures of their own mind distorting their own reality, of their own feelings seemingly working against them and altering their behaviour; they face the pressure of friends and family who don't or can't understand what on earth it is they're suffering. The more people can understand this and take it seriously, the (marginally) less difficult it will be for depressed people to seek help and not feel ashamed of suffering a 'mental illness'. And I know as far as my own experiences go, I wouldn't wish depression on my worst enemy.
• xenophanes 15y ago
  If you call the numbers given, is there any possibility they will call the police or otherwise interfere with you without your consent? Or is it a purely voluntary interaction in which they really just talk and listen?
  • madamepsychosis 15y ago
    No, not unless you say you're about to kill yourself.
    • xenophanes 15y ago
      So you're replying to the first question and you mean "yes" but say "no"?
      • seb_z_lite 15y ago
        that's normally what happens if you tell them you feel suicidal(by them I mean nurses,social workers..). They'll call the cops. You'll get to your place and the cops will be there asking you if you're ok. It's sucks when it happens and you already don't like the cops. It doesn't help.
• darasen 15y ago
  But, I thought it was the "Most wonderful time of the year"!
  • darasen 15y ago
    Please note my comment was not meant to be blasé but rather my, admittedly, cynical view of the Christmas season. Telling the clinically depressed (including self) that everything is wonderful and indicating they should feel the same is a bit like telling a man in a wheel chair he should go jogging. I get this a lot.
• HotKFreshSwag 15y ago
  If you're one of the 95% of humans who live outside the US and Canada and you want to talk here is a list of numbers to call: http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.html http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.html
  • raganwald 15y ago
    May I quote you?
    • HotKFreshSwag 15y ago
      If you google it you'll find some more lists I'm not sure if the one I linked is the most comprehensive one.
• billpatrianakos 15y ago
  I'm thankful someone wrote this. I've been seeing a lot of people talking about how depressed and/or suicidal and inadequate they feel quite frequently around here lately. Hell, even I've done some of that talking as I've been there recently too. The part at the end where he says they will listen is huge. Never underestimate how much someone simply listening can really help. Also, talking to a sympathetic stranger is often more helpful or even easier than talking to someone you know. I always wondered why so many people around here get to feeling this way and I've narrowed it down to a few things. First, startups are hard, they're often lonely, and burnout can creep up on you without you noticing. Burnout can really make you feel worthless. Then there are those who feel inadequate because they're reading all these stories about successful and smart people solving hard problems and making it big while they feel small, stupid, and inconsequential. There's a strong success bias in the submissions here and other places people like us peruse which can lead to strong feelings of worthlessness and self doubt. I've been there and I understand so well all of these things. I often wish I had a clone that just repeated what I tell myself whenever my negative voice starts nagging: Baby steps, you can't know it all or be it all and you certainly can't conquer the world in a week. No matter what anyone else is saying or doing out there, in the end we're all human, we're all going through the same things and we all feel the same way at one point or another. It gets better. Thanks for writing this and extra thanks for including those toll free lines.
  • interlagos 15y ago
    I'm thankful someone wrote this. I've been seeing a lot of people talking about how depressed and/or suicidal and inadequate they feel quite frequently around here lately. Suicide is a topic that people sometimes "take on" in a hamfisted attempt at some cheap feel-goodism, and the results are almost always counter-productive. You can't rationalize away suicide via a blog post. More likely it will actually bring to mind something that might not have been front and center. Forgotten that you're suicidal? Well raganwald is here to remind you. I may come off as a giant ass downer saying this, but it's the cold hard truth. This does the opposite of good.
    • baconner 15y ago
• choc_is_back 15y ago
  Just to add a more optimistic note here: I had a severe suicidal depression a couple of years ago, and managed to completely recover from it by learning something new, which is one of the things that always lifts my spirits: web development. I am now in the process of starting my first startup and feel very happy about my life. (I took antidepressants btw, don't be scared to take pills - they very often help and am convinced they made a difference for me) So, if you are feeling depressed and learning new things tends to get you excited, consider dropping everything that is bringing you down (I started ignoring my job pretty much and got fired eventually, but it saved my life so I have no regrets), consider learning something new!
• tokenadult 15y ago
  I was glad to upvote the thoughtful and helpful blog post submitted here and many of the thoughtful comments that other HN participants have posted here to help one another. I'm looking up Web links about what season of the year is the peak season for suicide http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/do-suicides-really-peak-during-the-holidays-239/ http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/do-suicides-really-peak-duri... because of the mention of the Christmas and New Year holiday season in the post. Any time of year is the wrong time to kill yourself, but according to medical textbooks I have read, the peak danger of completed suicide for most people who live in temperate zones in the Northern Hemisphere is actually May rather than the turn of the Gregorian Calendar year. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/may/12/mentalhealth.society http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/may/12/mentalhealth.s... The risk factor that peaks in May appears to be related to daylight variation with different seasons. Data from the Southern Hemisphere temperate zones and from the tropics support the hypothesis that sunlight variation is one influence on risk of completed suicide. But anyway it's good any time of the year to remind people how to get help when they think about harming themselves. Other resources I just turned up during my Web search include http://www.nmha.org/go/suicide http://www.nmha.org/go/suicide http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/suicide/prevention.html http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/suicide/prevention.htm... http://www.who.int/features/qa/24/en/index.html http://www.who.int/features/qa/24/en/index.html Stay healthy and enjoy the holidays and many years afterward.
• droithomme 15y ago
  Some people I have known got to the point where they've tried calling those hotlines. Their feedback is that the hotlines were not useful at all and just made them more frustrated. Perhaps there are better options? Since this is posted here I'll assume highly intelligent but depressed people are the target audience. Do we know that methods used at hotlines work on all categories of people equally? When I was in high school several decades ago I knew a girl that had seriously attempted it a few times. One day I brainstormed with her on more interesting ways she could do it. Some quite flamboyant, which required drawing diagrams. I got in trouble for having this discussion with her. But she stopped trying and later told me it was because the conversation she had with me was the first time someone had really heard her talking and treated her as an individual rather than just try to stop her from being depressed because depression makes the fake happiness society uncomfortable.
• gtani 15y ago
  NY Times re:Caltrain, really really sad story. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/us/engineers-face-horrible-memories-from-deaths-on-the-tracks.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/us/engineers-face-horrible...
• showdog 15y ago
  Wonderful post. Thank you. One thing I'd like to add. A realization I've made only a few days ago: The is no shame in being poor. Don't feel embarrassed if you don't have good food to eat, or a nice place to live, or have to work long hours to make ends meet. You are as good as anyone else. Your life is beautiful too.
• jeffrese 15y ago
  Ben Huh, Cheezburger Network founder, wrote a great post on how he contemplated suicide after the failure of a startup: http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-good-option/ http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-goo...
• jeffrese 15y ago
  Ben Huh, Cheezburger Network founder, wrote a great post on how he contemplated suicide after the failure of a startup: http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-good-option/ http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-goo... "It wasn’t until after I seriously contemplated suicide that I was ready to handle a $30 million check. "
• javadyan 15y ago
  I have a nice alternative to suicide. Since you hate your life so much that you want to end it, why not just say "fuck it all" and go start a new life from scratch by having some crazy (and possibly dangerous) adventure?
• gregfjohnson 15y ago
  Here is a thought that has helped me get through episodes: I would rather suffer this pain (which is probably not permanent, even though it feels like it is) than inflict on others the lifelong burden of a father, or friend, or companion, or spouse who committed suicide. This one thought has gotten me through a number of episodes. Nowadays I'm doing better, with a combination of therapy, Prozac-family meds, and meditation. Episodes do still roll around at times, but they are much shorter in duration (order day instead of order weeks/months).
• deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
• coolestuk 15y ago
  I hope I can give people some context. I have never thought I would feel so down that I would consider ending my life. I don't mind poverty, I'm very flexible in relationships, lots of things in my life have not turned out the way I hoped. And of course, there are lots of things I never expected that have enriched my life (one of those things is programming). But for the past 10 years I've been in pain every day. Even that is bearable (though most painkillers have no effect on my pain). The thing that has got me down though, is the pain that comes all through the night. Not being able to sleep night after night and the exhaustion that comes from it is the most depressing thing in my life. Even then, I know things could be worse. I could be disfigured. I could have lost my sight. Of course, those rationalisations are of little comfort when I'm being woken up for the 20th time, and bed feels like an implement of torture. Most things in life are "fixable" if one changes one's attitudes and behaviour. But uncontrollable pain is depressing.
  • nyellin 15y ago
    I don't know what constant pain is like, or if I would have the strength to hold out like you. If you ever want someone to talk to, you can email me at aantny@gmail.com. I would love to hear your story.
• deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
• 599 15y ago
  How can you think of suicide, there is too much to live for ( a ferrari 599 gto, hot bitches and monaco come to mind)
• jhuni 15y ago
  If anything would make me want to suicide its listening to other peoples suicide tales. I don't know how they do it.
• damncabbage 15y ago
  Simply call 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or in Canada 1-800-448-1833 Or 13 11 14 in Australia (Lifeline, http://www.lifeline.org.au http://www.lifeline.org.au).
  • dho 15y ago
    Or 143 in Switzerland (http://www.143.ch http://www.143.ch)
• danking00 15y ago
  What do you tell to someone who's decided that it's really quite pointless to continue working and living because the inevitable fate of the Universe coupled with the seeming inability to achieve sustained happiness? To them living to make a difference is pointless because practically nothing survives Solar death, and nothing survives a maximizing of Universal entropy. To them living for themselves is pointless because nothing brings sustained happiness. Solving problems, building things, etc. are just as much drugs as heroin. Once you've solved the problem you start seeking a new one. You can't be happy and satisfied with solving an important problem once.
  • zerostar07 15y ago
    If they exhibit serious catatonic symptoms, you take them to the doctor immediately. Otherwise, you explain to them that whoever promised them that life has a meaning on its own was lying to them in the first place, and that people have to make life meaningful by themselves, and then to read some existentialists, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer or Camus.
  • nyellin 15y ago
    Death is just as pointless. Considering that you have all of eternity to be dead, it seems like a mistake to cut your brief life short, in case something changes in your perspective during the rest of it.
    • jodrellblank 15y ago
      You don't "be dead", its not an active state, an ongoing experience. You imply that the person would miss out and regret it, but they woudn't be missing out because they wouldn't be. Suicidal people reading this and thinking I'm arguing in favour of it stop right there - I'm on a phone and can't write a full nuanced answer. But I think this is an important point which all the "permanent solution to a temporary problem" people don't really consider, and should, to see why its an inneffective exhirtation.
  • jodrellblank 15y ago
    You could start with the lesswrong.com article http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/
• zerostar07 15y ago
  Suicide does not correlate with Christmas holiday, quite the opposite, since suicide rate actually drops [1]. While depressed people have higher risk of suicide, it's generally believed that most depression patients are more at risk when they are recovering from it, as their motivation returns[2]. [1] http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17344747 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1734474... [2] http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=60&page=384&journalID=18 http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=60&pa...
• vonskippy 15y ago
  Suicide gets a bad rap. With 7 billion plus people on a planet that can't support half that number why are we encouraging these sad sacks to stay alive? Unique? Really, out of 7 billion plus people is anyone really all that special? If you're not enjoying the ride - get off now - and let people who are have a bit more space (and resources). Suicide might be the only memorable thing you do in your sorry existence, so don't be so quick to discount it. Who knows what's on the other side. If this life isn't satisfying you enough, take another spin on the wheel of life, who's to say what the next adventure will bring. But what about the kids, spouse, family, friends you ask? Well obviously you don't care - or you wouldn't be contemplating suicide. Humans are the only species that understands death, but doesn't understand how to deal with it. Who's to say when it's time to go? Who's to say it's wrong to plan that time instead of letting fate decide? I was always told if you don't like the party, leave. Seems like good advice for life as well.
  • tokenadult 15y ago
    I hope compassionate participants here on HN will go directly to the link on the parent post above this comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3350003 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3350003 and FLAG IT. I recall how pg felt when fallentimes, formerly an active participant here, died of suicide. If I remember correctly, that came about one week after a Hacker News thread in which several participants were dismissive of suicide.
  • irahul 15y ago
    Someone please ban this asshole.
    • vonskippy 15y ago
      Nice to see HN promotes freely discussing ALL opinions with an open mind. Oh wait, I see they don't. Apparently if you express opinions that others disagree with, the close minded fops want you banned. Meh - if I get banned for disagreeing with the standard "poor baby" suicide line, so be it. I'll stick with discussions where EVERYONE is welcome to express their opinions.
• Mz 15y ago
  I attempted suicide at age 17. I was also hospitalized twice for being suicidal, once in my teens and once in my twenties. I spent a lot of time in therapy (to deal with an abusive childhood), a lot of time working on getting a life and doing some serious problem solving (with regards to personal issues), and a lot of time resolving underlying health issues (that were undiagnosed when I was younger). I am currently facing eviction and doing so fairly calmly. I have no idea where I will go. I may literally be sleeping in the woods in winter come January. And I feel like I'm losing my mind because I'm not suicidal when I "should" be. If, as one person here commented, you feel there is something broken with your brain, take that seriously. I've read some things about arachadonic acid and depression. And this happens to be an issue I addressed for unrelated reasons. I consciously and intentionally changed my body chemistry to address my health issues and that is likely part of why I am currently not suicidal in spite of being very short of sleep and in serious financial trouble and feeling like the entire world doesn't give a flying fuck about my accomplishments, my situation and so on. If you are going through major transitions and that is a source of stress, there are more effective means to deal with those things too. I'm too short of sleep to write a book on the topic, I just want to make the point that if you feel something really negative, don't focus on your feelings. Focus on finding the roots of the problem, whether that is solving stressful life situations, addressing brain chemistry issues or something else. Anyway, this is not something you have to just swallow. And in my experience, the touchy-feely emotional outreach stuff is not real effective. I was suicidal in part due to health issues and in part due to being molested and raped. Healing my sexuality and my body has changed that and I can say that with confidence because I've spent the last 12 days wondering why on earth I am not suicidal while facing eviction, dealing with a mountain of debt...etc...ad nauseum. Instead of falling apart and having histrionics, I am making plans to the best of my ability and working overtime. Best of luck to anyone struggling with something like this.
  • justaname 15y ago
    Thanks for your honesty. I live in a country right now where everything gets swept under the rug. No courage left here to face reality. I seriously hope you can stay so strong and pull through. Keep on keeping on.
• zackzackzack 15y ago
  If you want somebody to talk to this holiday season, about anything at all, I extend an invitation to talk over Skype. Although I can't say for sure yet, but you are probably a really cool person if you are reading hacker news. If you find the time, I would really appreciate it if you reached out. I have nothing but time on my hands this winter break and I'd really like to avoid just mindlessly surfing the internet or coding all day long. Just send me an email at "moc.liramyrahcaz@kcaz".reverse(). Semi-repeat of this post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3349993 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3349993
• AndyJPartridge 15y ago
  To chat things through, in the United Kingdom, call 08457 90 90 90. This is the www.samaritans.org number, a trusted and respected resource.
  • sambeau 15y ago
    Bear in mind that the Samaritans do not see it as their place to stop you committing suicide, rather they exist in part to be there at that time so you don't die alone.
• rcfox 15y ago
  Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but if you're feeling alone, why not come hang out on IRC? It's been a source of camaraderie for me for years.
• bane 15y ago
  Several related threads from this discussion a couple weeks back http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169
• sophacles 15y ago
  So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so were pretty emotionally damaging. Somehow I internalized this expectation, and it only worsened all of it. There were a lot of things that I didn't know how to do well: make close friends, talk to girls, ask for help. A lot of this was probably BS at first, and in retrospect everyone went through it. I know that for me there was a weird feedback loop tho, reinforced by craziness in my family, where they would push away my friends, and would ridicule me for needing help. Anyway, all that led to this scenario where I felt even more alone an trapped. As others were working through this stuff, I couldn't figure out how to even start going with it. I wasn't a "forever alone" kind of guy, I stuttered through this stuff, but not in a particularly meaningful way. Not existing sounded amazing. I contemplated it off and on. At one point I had a serious sit-down with myself about the topic of suicide. I went over the pros, the cons, ways to do it, the consequences to others and so on. I decided, this was an option. I also realized, I only get to choose it once. I found this realization very comforting. Ever since, I have been slightly annoyed at the "suicide is not the answer" stuff I read. I get pissed at the people who deride it. I hate the people who talk about it as not an option. It is an option, but a pretty drastic one. (Raganwald: I like your stuff usually, but your blog post kind of annoyed me, even tho it's not terrible advice... it just doesn't work for me - nothing personal) Since this realization, I have gone through some pretty down times. As I mention above, I'm a bit socially/emotionally challenged, and sometimes I just feel like I'm getting nowhere in the world of people. I see them over there doing their thing, and I just don't understand how it works. I occasionally even see them not as people, but the same way I would see a group of dogs or other animals interacting -- I notice their behaviours, I try to figure out WTF it is all about, but I just can't relate. This really bothers me when it happens. Other times I get really down over messing up with people, or not being a top 50 programmer, or not being 4 hr marathoner, or whatever else my perfectionism is going on about. In all these cases, if it's bad enough, I get this thought: "You can just give up. You can stop existing." I don't shy away from it, I don't push it down, that seems to make it worse. I'm not scared of it, I welcome it. Like I said above, it is a comforting thought to me. It reminds me I have some power in the world, no matter how fucked up things are at the moment. Afterwards, the next thought comes: "You only get to do this once. Is this the time?" And I get to decide if it makes sense. And I only need to decide for today. Do I want to do this today? Sure things are fucked up, but I sure would exit in a pretty shitty situation: things undone, house a mess, porn not properly deleted from the computer, finances not in order, etc. So I won't do it today. Maybe I'll start getting ready to do it. Tomorrow I can decide again. Sometimes this goes on for a day. Sometimes it goes on for a week. But the very act of contemplating it seems to have a healing power for me. Now that I know I can at least do this, and I'm going to do it right, it reminds me that I can maybe do stuff. Getting ready for it, reminds me more that maybe I'm not so trapped, and there is a path forward, paradoxically getting me to the point where I usually put aside the silliness after a while, with a freshly organized set of life surroundings. Sometimes it's more than a while, but for me, this works. I'm putting this out here, for the people who are contemplating suicide, and somehow reading these comments. Contemplate away, I won't begrudge you that. I'd like to remind you that this is a one-time deal tho, so if you're going to do it, make sure this is the right answer for you. If you are unsure, wait a while, see what else you can do also - the option doesn't go away, in fact this basic option is the greatest power you have, don't squander it. Also: after this article leaves the front page, I'm going to delete this post, because while I think it is important, I don't know that having these words public for posterity is a wise decision.
• paraschopra 15y ago
  Suicide is an interesting phenomenon with multiple causes, some short-sighted (rejection from lover), some circumstantial (not being able to pay debt) and some misguided (not getting admission in a good college). But what sounds to me the most _genuine_ reason for suicide is someone who has contemplated meaning of life for long and hasn't been able to find any inherent reason why he should exist. That person may have friends, financially secure and may love having fun. But internally he may slowly realize the fact that his existence in this world is pointless. How do you call such suicide attempt as stupid? The person has clearly thought through it and decided not to exist. This doesn't mean I personally endorse suicide. I am a big believer in Absurdism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism and think the whole point of life is to live in face of absurdity. The realization that you have to live (and it's OK even if you die because existence is pointless after all) gives you incredible power. You are no longer afraid of doing things like quitting your job, talking to girls in a bar, going sky diving and trying drugs. After all, no matter what happens, you have nothing to loose. We all are going to die one day, so why not die _after_ doing whatever your heart desires.
  • justaname 15y ago
    sounds like a plan
• fallous 15y ago
  Having spent quality time in the hospital for a suicide attempt, I really do embrace the idea that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" except when it is not. Prolonged and painful cancer, Alzheimers, etc all make perfect sense to me as a suicide solution because there is no "future" that improves the situation. Depression is defeatable on the other hand and sometimes you just have to grind through and get to the other side. I tried the suicide route due to it and I won't ever opt for it on a temporary situation again.
  • TobiHeidi 15y ago
    For the very most people Depression is not defeatable. It can be surpressed for some time or some symptoms, but one rarely can be "healed" from it.
• jonlee 15y ago
  For another perspective that I thought was pretty insightful: http://viewonbuddhism.org/depression.html http://viewonbuddhism.org/depression.html Particularly insightful, I thought, was this pasted forum post: "Having myself experienced extreme, regularly to the point of suicidal, depression, I think I can understand your point of view at least to a certain extent. But on the notion of self-centredness, I'm afraid I have to agree. From my own experience, coming through a massive clinical depression and coming through to the other end, cured, I believe self-centredness to be the very cause of depression. And not just depression, but every ailment in the world as we know it. The irony is, I can only see this NOW, with hindsight, looking back at my mindstate when I was depressed: "ego all the way, me me me, MY problems, MY depression, MY past, MY MY MY MY..." That very self-absorbed, self-centred fascination with my own ego and its agenda mindstate is exactly what kept me trapped in that depression for so long. It's only when I started to consider that maybe -- just maybe -- as one of the 6 BILLION people on this planet, other people had problems FAR WORSE than mine, that the clouds began to part. And when I realised that I was being very selfish and WASTING my life in a state of -- excuse me, but there are few better terms -- mental masturbation. All I was doing was feeding my ego, indulging its little whims and woes, and feeling sorry for myself. What was I doing for humanity? Nothing. And yes, that is self-centredness in its highest -- or should I say lowest -- form. Of course, the great curse of the ever-nourished ego -- the root of all depression -- is that when you're IN that state, you CAN'T SEE it for what it is. It's like the people stuck in the Matrix (the film). They wouldn't believe it if you told them they were living in a dream. You have to wake up for yourself, then you see it." Joshua Bryer
• beaker52 15y ago
  I just want to say that 4 months after a break down in my marriage and with little experience of real life outside of that marriage, the approach to this holiday season, for whatever reason has been quite difficult. I was really considering not making it into 2012. I have since taken control of my thoughts and am feeling much better about things. The main realisation came from realising that now, the present, is the most important thing, not the past, nor the future. Don't wanna sound all preachy but this book (I'm listening to it in audio form) really helped me: http://www.audible.co.uk/pd/ref=sr_1_1?asin=B004EX04PK&qid=1323854123&sr=1-1 http://www.audible.co.uk/pd/ref=sr_1_1?asin=B004EX04PK&q...
• georgieporgie 15y ago
  A random moment of anger/hilarity during a bad bout of depression a few years ago: I tried calling around to a few psychiatrists in the area to get an appointment for depression. After waiting several days without hearing anything, I called one again. "Hello?" "Uh, yeah, I called and left a message a few days ago about seeing someone about depression." "Oh. We aren't accepting new patients." "Um. Okay, can you recommend anyone who is?" She sounded shocked that anyone would ever ask such a question, "no." So, it has been my experience that mental health care could care less about you unless they're already cashing your checks. Anyway, on the subject of suicide, you only get one go around on this ride. If you're seriously contemplating suicide, go see your regular doctor about it. There are great drugs out there. Yes, they can have side effects, but let's be rational here: a lack of boners, for example, is well worth it to find value in life again. If you kill yourself, everyone in your family will be devastated, your friends will miss you more than you think, and, to be perfectly honest, you still owe society for educating you and putting up with the ridiculous stuff you did as a teenager. ;-)
• losethos 15y ago
  It would be nice if my enemies commited suicide. God should be a rude wake-up call. God says... glorious dance It's_nice_being_God dance Hicc_up spoiled_brat it's_hopeless hope you're_so_screwed I_see_nothing fun trippy could_it_be___Satan failure_is_not_an_option fun Catastrophic_Success take_the_day_off pardon_the_french Dad what's_the_plan na_na ridiculous that's_much_better so_he_sess ipod watch_it_buddy in_theory just_lovely Burp theres_no_place_like_home money I'm_beginning_to_wonder joy Indian you_think_you_could_do_better battle you're_so_screwed in_theory I_just_might whoop_there_it_is now_you_tell_me comedy piety ghastly if_and_only_if segway vote battle don't_count_on_it husband make_my_day pet I'll_get_right_on_it high_mucky_muck food NOT ridiculous spending look_out everythings_a_okay yuck
• DanielGeisler 15y ago
  I have profound problems with the standard yada yada about suicide. Yes I believe that life is precious and in my teens I spent a number of years as a volunteer working the phones in crisis centers, so I do know the whole rap. But if life is truly precious our society should treat it as being precious with deeds as well as cheap talk. Society has gutted the mental health system, here in Santa Rosa, CA the two existing mental hospitals have been closed in the last few years. The mental health system is now configured to only act only at the final moment of extremity when people are ready to commit suicide and then with only the mathematically minimal amount of intervention possible. To me and many other people it seems that the science is very clear and that issues like mental health and education can’t be dealt with without dealing with the intertwined socioeconomic issues. I have a diagnosis of Asperger’s, depression and anxiety. In the Nineties is was a successful software consultant and then the dot com crash happened. I went from being able to get a job anything in a week or two to being unable to obtain a single response to the resumes I would spend out over the course of a year. Five years ago I was given an SSRI for the first time in my life and I had a horrible reaction that almost killed me and the resulted with leaving me with a very serious problem with sensory overload. A few years ago I spoke to the head of HR at O’Reilly who asked me why didn’t I just move down to Silicon Valley where I could make six figures. I didn’t tell the gentleman that I had a serious problem with sensory overload and that I had a hard time seeing how I could function in a crowded urban environment and that living in the semi-rural environment of Sonoma county at least provided me with a quiet place that I could marginally function in. Now I am having a profound problem with sensory overload that has literally trapped me in my apartment. Loud sounds and large array of other types of sound literally cause me pain. But the experience is actually far worse than pain, because I have a high pain tolerance, but an occurrence of a sensory meltdown can strip me of my very sentience. Because I am now poor I have been absolutely unable to engage in any medical or psychiatric intervention. I have tried to connect with services through ever possible channel I can think of, but to no good. Society’s reaction has been to say, let us know when you are planning to kill yourself, because that is the one thing that we will react to. Several years ago when I first tried to get help for my sensory overload, I realized that few doctors had any idea of what sensory overload was, and none of them had any idea of how to intervene in it. So their answer was to play hot potato with me. One doctor I saw kept redirecting the conversation from sensory overload to asking me if I might be suicidal. When I answered I wasn’t he just kept digging deeper asking me if I wasn’t sure that I was having a problem with suicidal ideation. He was desperate to relabel my problem with sensory overload as a problem with being suicidal because he did know how to deal with that. Dealing with a number of incidents like this over time can make in sick at heart. And mental hospitals are absolutely not the solution. When you can barely tolerate any sound whatsoever the answer is not to lock you up in a noisy environment that you can’t escape from. So I have begun a hunger strike as a political protest for the lack of necessary services for myself and others. I at least have the intellect to enunciate the problems with the system as so I feel the importance of escalating this to the level of a political protest for others as well as myself. I have started a blog at http://dannyslittlerevolution.blogspot.com/ http://dannyslittlerevolution.blogspot.com/ detailing my issues and concerns, but so far I have received zero feedback. I am now in my fifth day of my hunger strike. So my final comment is to suggest to people that bland statements about life being precious and that people shouldn’t commit suicide because things will get better are absolutely meaningless drivel meant to assuage the conscious of the speaker unless society acts to truly treat life as precious. I get that many in society holds life to be precious for unborn fetuses and for people about to commit suicide. But if life is truly precious it should be treated as being precious during the period of time between conception and death or else talk of the preciousness of life is an absolute sham. My training and gift is in understanding how complex systems work and any system to refuses to deal with the underlying socioeconomic problems is just pissing in the wind. Peace.
• angelortega 15y ago
  I though it was somebody giving advices on how to commit suicide successfully, an article I have needed sometimes but I keep missing (by successfully I mean without risk of ending fatally wounded but still alive, which will make your situation even worse). But it's yet another article trying to take the idea from your head with a list of phone numbers to call. I think western civilization still have a rather wrong approach to the issue of somebody wanting to end his/her life voluntarily. I've felt in this situation many times (now I do, for example). I don't want advices about how beautiful life is, or why I need to change my mind, or how many people are there that loves me and that will suffer my loss. I know that. I know people will suffer, at least initially. But poeple like me, people who have no energy nor desire to go on living, are nothing but a burden to those sharing their life with. Yes, I'm depressed. Yes, I'm under medical treatment. Yes, my doctor have tried on me several different drugs and nothing have changed. I feel myself a failure and I don't think there is any chemical compound that will reprogram my brain to avoid feeling like that. I just want to be able to exercise my free will of not going on with my life, without drama nor fanfare. But this is, for some reason, a society taboo. I wasn't sure to share this with you (I'm sure very few people will understand my point of view).
• tete 15y ago
  (edit: Sorry, this is pretty random. I still wanted to share my view.) For me it looks like pretty much everyone was suicidal in the youth/adolescence. It may be a horrible coincidence, but really I have never ever known a person that didn't feel suicidal at least once. No, I am not talking about the "Oh god, I love someone, I want to die sort." I knew people who killed themselves, so I guess I am pretty good at knowing the difference. Don't know why but these folks often talk to me. Maybe it's because I don't get too emotional about it and they know I won't tell anybody. I believe in the right of suicide, even for mentally ill persons. I mean if it's chronically then it doesn't make sense. It's probably a lot harder then another kind of illness. Something I never understood was the "(s)he is going to die anyway" argument. Everybody is going to die in the end. You also don't know about the when or how. Of course it can be more likely to be sooner and agonizing, but you can't know for sure. On the other hand I consider it to be a stupid idea to ask some kind of doctor about it. A doctor, in my opinion should be someone who keeps people alive and not someone who decides about whether someone dies. I consider this to be a major problem. And when you ask about the "quality of life" I think nobody else should answer that question. If I am not feeling good it doesn't when a doctor or whoever says something different. Still, if anyone out there feels suicidal then get help. There are a lot of people who are _glad_ to help and won't treat you in a generic way. I talked to a lot of person and never thought about something like "what's the best way to convince someone to stay alive". Also, yeah there are _many_ stupid psychologists - and I mean it like that. They often see stuff that I consider to be a serious hallucination. I know about psychologists who think everyone looking outward of a window wants to jump down. A schoolmate and back then good friend of mine had been sent to a psychologist for no reason at all (well, he had very, very strange parents) and was considered to be mentally ill, because he didn't know what he should talk about with the psychologist. I know about tons of these cases, like people who are mentally ill, because they washed their stuff when it was dirty. I think this is a big problem. Suicidal people always think that people who could help suck, because some psychologists see psychotic people everywhere. Well, maybe it is like that. As I wrote everyone I ever knew (of course I am talking about people I knew pretty well) were suicidal at some point. Still I think a lot of mental illnesses should be considered character traits. For example there was a time when everything but straight sexuality was considered a mental illness, even sex toys and various other things. Also a lot of artists and philosopher can possibly be considered to be insane. My personal opinion is that people who are suicidal usually have a problem to accept who they. In some situations it is more like accepting the circumstances. Even if they suck right now or are hurtful this doesn't mean that it will remain like that. It can take years until one feels better again, but it usually is worth waiting and accepting that can make you feel way better. Just don't take everything too serious and think positive. Mind > Matter ;)
• NIL8 15y ago
  Thanks.
• raganwald 15y ago
  One day later: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3352336 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3352336
• mio11 15y ago
  I found hope and sense of life when I began to understand who Jesus is. When I am in depression I pray to him and this helps me. Wondered why noone was talking about that. This is what Christmas is all about, Christ brining us hope.
• twodayslate 15y ago
  A kid I knew in High School just killed himself the other day. No one knows why. It was rather a shock to everyone.
• spektom 15y ago
  In my childhood I was told a "tale of two frogs" http://bquot.com/8jl http://bquot.com/8jl This is really helpful for understanding why you should never give up!
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