20 ms·

This is exactly it. Terminated technically means, no longer receiving compensation or benefits. If Musk is basically saying “stop working” and we will pay you

This is exactly it. Terminated technically means, no longer receiving compensation or benefits. If Musk is basically saying “stop working” and we will pay you for the next 60 days (and even beyond), then this is completely legal as long as they are not restricted from seeking other employment during this “notice period” Edit: IANAL

nathanvanfleet 4y ago
It's almost as if Elon is being sued to ensure that he follows through with his obligations, since he's so consistently doesn't. Strange. It's like there is a purpose to the lawsuit.
- pb7 4y ago
  That's not how lawsuits work. You don't sue someone for something they might do with zero indication that they will. When you buy a company headquartered in California and elect to layoff half of it, you probably know your legal obligations.
  - rtkwe 4y ago
    The person suing got their termination notification on 11/1 so I imaging they know more about what their termination actually entails than you or I do. Also Musk consistently pushes and oversteps the legal boundaries of what he can and can't do to get his way. Him being in charge of Twitter at all is because he was forced to execute a contract he willingly signed what makes you think he'll be more calmly compliant to laws?
    - spoils19 4y ago
      pb7 is probably correct here, as they are in many things. Elon probably knows what he's doing, you don't get to that level of businessmen without making all the right decisions.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        > you don't get to that level of businessmen without making all the right decisions C'mon; he literally just tried desperately to get out of the Twitter deal that's the direct cause of these layoffs. Jeff Bezos's decisions about where to stick his weiner cost him tens of billions of dollars. No one makes "all the right decisions".
        Domenic_S 4y ago
        People try and get out of deals all the time. It's a normal part of business. Edit: I take it many of you haven't been a part of a company that gets an offer that falls apart later, tried to buy/sell property, etc etc. Deals fall apart constantly, trying to get out of a deal isn't indicative of anything meaningful in and of itself. The only really unusual thing that happened in the Twitter deal was Twitter forcing the consummation.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        lovich 4y ago
        He waived his ability to do due diligence which is part of the normal business process that allows for backing out of a deal, because he was so confident in buying Twitter. Then he almost immediately tried backing out by claiming that things that would have been found out during the due diligence phase were a surprise to him(bots). It was forced because he left himself open to the deal being forced which was the idiotic mistake I think we can take it that you haven’t been part of many businesses that actually had to compete and operate with other businesses with equal leverage. The way a business negotiates when it’s getting bought out due to failing investor goals is a lot different than when the two opposing parties have equivalent leverage
        Domenic_S 4y ago
        He did not claim that bots were a surprise -- in fact, getting rid of bots was the premise of his offer in the first place. His issue with the bots was that he thought there was evidence that there were far more bots than claimed and Twitter was dodging his requests for info. There are some plausible arguments that even outside due diligence that bot problem would be meaningful, like that it's a materially adverse change. But that's all beside the point. These kind of antics happen all the time in the business world. The buyer threatens to back out, the seller takes them to court, they settle. LVMH & Tiffany comes to mind as a very recent example: it wasn't a due diligence argument there, either.
    - pb7 4y ago
      Clearly they don't: https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twitter-staff-jobs-axed-layoffs-2022-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twi...
      - rtkwe 4y ago
        This appears to only be the emails they sent out to the larger mass firing the originators of the lawsuit might have gotten different ones.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Sure you can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment > It is a form of legally binding preventive by which a party involved in an actual or possible legal matter can ask a court to conclusively rule on and affirm the rights, duties, or obligations of one or more parties in a civil dispute (subject to any appeal).
  - selectodude 4y ago
    In a drug-induced haze, Elon offered to buy Twitter at a price that was a weed meme and after sobering up, went on a full court press in the media to get out of his deal. It required a absolute shitpounding in the Delaware court of chancery for him to cop to the legal obligations he clearly wasn't aware of. What on earth has this man done to make you think that he knows his legal obligations?
    - WilTimSon 4y ago
      He doesn't have to know them, he probably has enough management and lawyers on retainer to warn him about stuff like that. It's highly unlikely they haven't warned him about this.
      - selectodude 4y ago
        Of course he does. But he tends to just do shit and let his lawyers figure it out later. Speculating from his past behavior, he almost certainly just fired everybody and his lawyers were like "yeah, you can't just do that, you have to do x, y, and z as well". At least this time, it seems that he's going to actually listen to his lawyers and pay out the garden leave.
      - justapassenger 4y ago
        He’s always smartest guy in the room, and will do whatever he wants. He may share same future as previous smartest guys in the room.
      - saagarjha 4y ago
        And you think he listens to them?
        WilTimSon 4y ago
        Ehh, I assume he does when it comes to money. I might have a very low opinion of him but I'm holding out a tiny shred of good faith in him not being an actual lunatic. However unlikely that seems as time goes on.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    That is exactly how lawsuits work. They can be used to get a legal judgement to force a party to Cary out a contract when there is reason to think the other party wouldn’t otherwise comply.
    - pb7 4y ago
      >when there is reason to think the other party wouldn’t otherwise comply There is no reason to think that here: https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twitter-staff-jobs-axed-layoffs-2022-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twi...
  - sophacles 4y ago
    > You don't sue someone for something they might do with zero indication that they will. Sure you do. Often the news reports this with the phrase "seeking injunction base on rumors that..."
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    > When you buy a company Elon didn't even read the contract that bought the company. He spent the last 6 months in court trying to get out of the contract, not realizing it was ironclad.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      He was trying to get out of it because it was a stupid deal at that price, not because he couldn't understand a contract. He was trying to limit the dumb consequences of his dumb impulse. Failing at that, he might as well lean into it. He's got enough money to make billions of stupid mistakes, and this stupid mistake gave him ownership of his favorite thing. A favorite thing that incidentally gives him leverage against a US government desperate to control social media, a US government who is basically a business partner on every company he has. He's likely to extract a load of profit out of twitter through that, anyway, we just won't see it because it will show up in his other businesses in the form of contracts, favorable regulation, and favorable legislation.
      - dragontamer 4y ago
        > not because he couldn't understand a contract The court case went on as long as it did (at great cost in lawyer time) because Elon thought he had a case. If Elon understood the contract, he wouldn't have wasted so much money on the courts and lawyers.
- illuminerdy 4y ago
  Preemptive lawsuit's. To further tie up an already overburdened legal system. I like how you think, my man.
  - vkou 4y ago
    There's nothing overburdened about the civil court system, because the participants in it are largely responsible for paying for it. The criminal court system (and public defenders in particular) are another story.
    - illuminerdy 4y ago
      There is a considerable backlog of civil court cases throughout the country due to a mysterious virus of unknown origin.
- rco8786 4y ago
  You can’t sue someone in advance of wrongdoing
  - jacksnipe 4y ago
    They were supposed to get paid on Tuesday.
    - lupire 4y ago
      Do you suspect they were not?
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    - bitcharmer 4y ago
      Go back to Reddit. You'll feel like at home there with such comments
  - supercanuck 4y ago
    Obviously you can.
    - rco8786 4y ago
      “Twitter is being sued for not giving employees advance notice of a mass layoff that began in earnest early Friday.” Very first line of the article.
  - sulam 4y ago
    So you're saying that a law firm has decided to risk it by filing this lawsuit on behalf of a few no-name Twitter employees? You can't ascribe 5-d chess skills to Musk on this one, he's lost the benefit of the doubt.
    - rco8786 4y ago
- hcurtiss 4y ago
  That's a textbook sanctionable offense. Lawyers don't get to bring prophylactic frivolous claims.
  - yakak 4y ago
    If a reasonable person can't figure out what has happened in a job contract they can treat the other side as at fault and any competent court sides with them. Was this incorrect notification process or a lock out? Both are at odds with the job responsibilities and benefits.
  - r-w 4y ago
    What’s stopping them?
    - hcurtiss 4y ago
      Sanctions.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- googlryas 4y ago
  Consider: I'm going to sue you to make sure you don't steal my car. Makes sense right? You shouldn't be stealing cars so my lawsuit will be reasonable. I just want to make sure you follow through with what you should do
rajeshp1986 4y ago
From what I hear from my personal connections at Twitter. They will be given 60 days pay so he is circumventing that California law.
- petesergeant 4y ago
  > so he is circumventing that California law Not a Musk fan, but "circumventing" feels a bit weird when he's basically acting in the spirit of it?
  - ifyoubuildit 4y ago
    Yeah, it sounds like he's complying, which seems like the obvious thing to do. I get that emotions are understandably high, and people think he's some kind of super villain/buffoon simultaneously, but how would it make any sense for him to make that kind of obvious blunder?
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      The guy is kind of known for making obvious blunders out of the blue or at least acting like he is above things.
      - Firmwarrior 4y ago
        I feel like he'd get a lot of pushback all the way up and down the chain of command on this particular blunder, though. It'd be like trying to throw your car into reverse on the highway.. just because you can try to issue the command doesn't mean it'll get carried out
- jfk13 4y ago
  According to the email reported by the BBC[1] they'll be paid until Feb 2nd, so that's more like 90 days. Other severance details not yet known, but as I understand it what's happening today is that they're being given notice, but their formal "employment" doesn't end until the notice period is over. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-63511430 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-63511430
jedberg 4y ago
It depends what you define at benefits. Is access to the cafe a benefit? Is access to the internal corporate directory a benefit?
- Closi 4y ago
  No, not for the purposes of layoffs.
- lupire 4y ago
  Definitely not. Companies have been fighting the IRS for years to claim that the cafe is not a benefit and should not be taxed.
woodruffw 4y ago
> If Musk is basically saying “stop working” and we will pay you for the next 60 days (and even beyond), then this is completely legal as long as they are not restricted from seeking other employment during this “notice period” AFAICT, nobody was told to "stop working" today. They were all laid off, meaning terminated, no longer compensated, etc.
- lupire 4y ago
  Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence, or at least a shred of evidence.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Which part of this is an extraordinary claim? It's currently on the front page of every major US newspaper.
rich_sasha 4y ago
Nitpick, but this kind of "paid but not working", also known as Garden Leave in the UK at least, often needs to be specified in the contract. Otherwise the employee could argue in some jurisdictions that this is demeaning behaviour etc. No idea about the actual jurisdiction in question...
- lupire 4y ago
  That's why European (and whatever UK is) employees were merely warned, and the US workers were laid off.

nathanvanfleet 4y ago

It's almost as if Elon is being sued to ensure that he follows through with his obligations, since he's so consistently doesn't. Strange. It's like there is a purpose to the lawsuit.

pb7 4y ago
That's not how lawsuits work. You don't sue someone for something they might do with zero indication that they will. When you buy a company headquartered in California and elect to layoff half of it, you probably know your legal obligations.
- rtkwe 4y ago
  The person suing got their termination notification on 11/1 so I imaging they know more about what their termination actually entails than you or I do. Also Musk consistently pushes and oversteps the legal boundaries of what he can and can't do to get his way. Him being in charge of Twitter at all is because he was forced to execute a contract he willingly signed what makes you think he'll be more calmly compliant to laws?
  - spoils19 4y ago
    pb7 is probably correct here, as they are in many things. Elon probably knows what he's doing, you don't get to that level of businessmen without making all the right decisions.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > you don't get to that level of businessmen without making all the right decisions C'mon; he literally just tried desperately to get out of the Twitter deal that's the direct cause of these layoffs. Jeff Bezos's decisions about where to stick his weiner cost him tens of billions of dollars. No one makes "all the right decisions".
      - Domenic_S 4y ago
        People try and get out of deals all the time. It's a normal part of business. Edit: I take it many of you haven't been a part of a company that gets an offer that falls apart later, tried to buy/sell property, etc etc. Deals fall apart constantly, trying to get out of a deal isn't indicative of anything meaningful in and of itself. The only really unusual thing that happened in the Twitter deal was Twitter forcing the consummation.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        lovich 4y ago
        He waived his ability to do due diligence which is part of the normal business process that allows for backing out of a deal, because he was so confident in buying Twitter. Then he almost immediately tried backing out by claiming that things that would have been found out during the due diligence phase were a surprise to him(bots). It was forced because he left himself open to the deal being forced which was the idiotic mistake I think we can take it that you haven’t been part of many businesses that actually had to compete and operate with other businesses with equal leverage. The way a business negotiates when it’s getting bought out due to failing investor goals is a lot different than when the two opposing parties have equivalent leverage
        Domenic_S 4y ago
        He did not claim that bots were a surprise -- in fact, getting rid of bots was the premise of his offer in the first place. His issue with the bots was that he thought there was evidence that there were far more bots than claimed and Twitter was dodging his requests for info. There are some plausible arguments that even outside due diligence that bot problem would be meaningful, like that it's a materially adverse change. But that's all beside the point. These kind of antics happen all the time in the business world. The buyer threatens to back out, the seller takes them to court, they settle. LVMH & Tiffany comes to mind as a very recent example: it wasn't a due diligence argument there, either.
  - pb7 4y ago
    Clearly they don't: https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twitter-staff-jobs-axed-layoffs-2022-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twi...
    - rtkwe 4y ago
      This appears to only be the emails they sent out to the larger mass firing the originators of the lawsuit might have gotten different ones.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Sure you can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment > It is a form of legally binding preventive by which a party involved in an actual or possible legal matter can ask a court to conclusively rule on and affirm the rights, duties, or obligations of one or more parties in a civil dispute (subject to any appeal).
- selectodude 4y ago
  In a drug-induced haze, Elon offered to buy Twitter at a price that was a weed meme and after sobering up, went on a full court press in the media to get out of his deal. It required a absolute shitpounding in the Delaware court of chancery for him to cop to the legal obligations he clearly wasn't aware of. What on earth has this man done to make you think that he knows his legal obligations?
  - WilTimSon 4y ago
    He doesn't have to know them, he probably has enough management and lawyers on retainer to warn him about stuff like that. It's highly unlikely they haven't warned him about this.
    - selectodude 4y ago
      Of course he does. But he tends to just do shit and let his lawyers figure it out later. Speculating from his past behavior, he almost certainly just fired everybody and his lawyers were like "yeah, you can't just do that, you have to do x, y, and z as well". At least this time, it seems that he's going to actually listen to his lawyers and pay out the garden leave.
    - justapassenger 4y ago
      He’s always smartest guy in the room, and will do whatever he wants. He may share same future as previous smartest guys in the room.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      And you think he listens to them?
      - WilTimSon 4y ago
        Ehh, I assume he does when it comes to money. I might have a very low opinion of him but I'm holding out a tiny shred of good faith in him not being an actual lunatic. However unlikely that seems as time goes on.
- adastra22 4y ago
  That is exactly how lawsuits work. They can be used to get a legal judgement to force a party to Cary out a contract when there is reason to think the other party wouldn’t otherwise comply.
  - pb7 4y ago
    >when there is reason to think the other party wouldn’t otherwise comply There is no reason to think that here: https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twitter-staff-jobs-axed-layoffs-2022-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/read-blunt-email-telling-twi...
- sophacles 4y ago
  > You don't sue someone for something they might do with zero indication that they will. Sure you do. Often the news reports this with the phrase "seeking injunction base on rumors that..."
- dragontamer 4y ago
  > When you buy a company Elon didn't even read the contract that bought the company. He spent the last 6 months in court trying to get out of the contract, not realizing it was ironclad.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    He was trying to get out of it because it was a stupid deal at that price, not because he couldn't understand a contract. He was trying to limit the dumb consequences of his dumb impulse. Failing at that, he might as well lean into it. He's got enough money to make billions of stupid mistakes, and this stupid mistake gave him ownership of his favorite thing. A favorite thing that incidentally gives him leverage against a US government desperate to control social media, a US government who is basically a business partner on every company he has. He's likely to extract a load of profit out of twitter through that, anyway, we just won't see it because it will show up in his other businesses in the form of contracts, favorable regulation, and favorable legislation.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      > not because he couldn't understand a contract The court case went on as long as it did (at great cost in lawyer time) because Elon thought he had a case. If Elon understood the contract, he wouldn't have wasted so much money on the courts and lawyers.
illuminerdy 4y ago
Preemptive lawsuit's. To further tie up an already overburdened legal system. I like how you think, my man.
- vkou 4y ago
  There's nothing overburdened about the civil court system, because the participants in it are largely responsible for paying for it. The criminal court system (and public defenders in particular) are another story.
  - illuminerdy 4y ago
    There is a considerable backlog of civil court cases throughout the country due to a mysterious virus of unknown origin.
rco8786 4y ago
You can’t sue someone in advance of wrongdoing
- jacksnipe 4y ago
  They were supposed to get paid on Tuesday.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Do you suspect they were not?
- jeffbee 4y ago
  - bitcharmer 4y ago
    Go back to Reddit. You'll feel like at home there with such comments
- supercanuck 4y ago
  Obviously you can.
  - rco8786 4y ago
    “Twitter is being sued for not giving employees advance notice of a mass layoff that began in earnest early Friday.” Very first line of the article.
- sulam 4y ago
  So you're saying that a law firm has decided to risk it by filing this lawsuit on behalf of a few no-name Twitter employees? You can't ascribe 5-d chess skills to Musk on this one, he's lost the benefit of the doubt.
  - rco8786 4y ago
hcurtiss 4y ago
That's a textbook sanctionable offense. Lawyers don't get to bring prophylactic frivolous claims.
- yakak 4y ago
  If a reasonable person can't figure out what has happened in a job contract they can treat the other side as at fault and any competent court sides with them. Was this incorrect notification process or a lock out? Both are at odds with the job responsibilities and benefits.
- r-w 4y ago
  What’s stopping them?
  - hcurtiss 4y ago
    Sanctions.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
googlryas 4y ago
Consider: I'm going to sue you to make sure you don't steal my car. Makes sense right? You shouldn't be stealing cars so my lawsuit will be reasonable. I just want to make sure you follow through with what you should do

rajeshp1986 4y ago

From what I hear from my personal connections at Twitter. They will be given 60 days pay so he is circumventing that California law.

petesergeant 4y ago
> so he is circumventing that California law Not a Musk fan, but "circumventing" feels a bit weird when he's basically acting in the spirit of it?
- ifyoubuildit 4y ago
  Yeah, it sounds like he's complying, which seems like the obvious thing to do. I get that emotions are understandably high, and people think he's some kind of super villain/buffoon simultaneously, but how would it make any sense for him to make that kind of obvious blunder?
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    The guy is kind of known for making obvious blunders out of the blue or at least acting like he is above things.
    - Firmwarrior 4y ago
      I feel like he'd get a lot of pushback all the way up and down the chain of command on this particular blunder, though. It'd be like trying to throw your car into reverse on the highway.. just because you can try to issue the command doesn't mean it'll get carried out
jfk13 4y ago
According to the email reported by the BBC[1] they'll be paid until Feb 2nd, so that's more like 90 days. Other severance details not yet known, but as I understand it what's happening today is that they're being given notice, but their formal "employment" doesn't end until the notice period is over. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-63511430 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-63511430

jedberg 4y ago

It depends what you define at benefits. Is access to the cafe a benefit? Is access to the internal corporate directory a benefit?

Closi 4y ago
No, not for the purposes of layoffs.
lupire 4y ago
Definitely not. Companies have been fighting the IRS for years to claim that the cafe is not a benefit and should not be taxed.

woodruffw 4y ago

> If Musk is basically saying “stop working” and we will pay you for the next 60 days (and even beyond), then this is completely legal as long as they are not restricted from seeking other employment during this “notice period” AFAICT, nobody was told to "stop working" today. They were all laid off, meaning terminated, no longer compensated, etc.

lupire 4y ago
Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence, or at least a shred of evidence.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Which part of this is an extraordinary claim? It's currently on the front page of every major US newspaper.

rich_sasha 4y ago

Nitpick, but this kind of "paid but not working", also known as Garden Leave in the UK at least, often needs to be specified in the contract. Otherwise the employee could argue in some jurisdictions that this is demeaning behaviour etc. No idea about the actual jurisdiction in question...

lupire 4y ago
That's why European (and whatever UK is) employees were merely warned, and the US workers were laid off.