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> It basically mandates KYC (Know Your Customer) procedures for companies that buy or sell catalytic converters, and it makes buying or selling a catalytic conv
by catiopatio 4y ago
> It basically mandates KYC (Know Your Customer) procedures for companies that buy or sell catalytic converters, and it makes buying or selling a catalytic converter without documentation that it was obtained legally a crime.
This is worse than the original problem. When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions?
Effective, privacy-preserving law enforcement is difficult.
That doesn’t mean we should cut corners through ever-increasing state oversight targeted at the latest symptoms of criminality.
The choice isn’t between laws like this and having your catalytic converter stolen. The choice is between law enforcement actually doing their job, or invasive and ineffectual laws like this.
The justice department, in the very article we’re discussing, investigated and took down this ring without California’s new “KYC” regulations.
- hack_edu 4y ago> When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions? After Timothy McVeigh blew up a building with a truck full of agricultural supplies.
- catiopatio 4y agoHow well did that prevent 9/11? The decrease in domestic terrorism is due to societal changes and better old-fashioned policing of home-grown extremist groups. We didn’t somehow make it impossible (or even difficult) to improvise large explosives.
- mattzito 4y agoWell, those folks had to spend a few years planning, take flying lessons, dry run everything a few times, and then pull off the most complicated and coordinated terrorist attack in US history. The actual bomb planning for the Oklahoma City bombing was less than a year and involved two people. So, seems like the bar was raised quite a bit.
- Teever 4y agoDo you think that the bar was raised a bit or that the 9/11 terrorists set their sights a little higher?
- beenBoutIT 4y agoYou're giving the 9/11 terrorists far too much credit. They were supported/financed by the Saudis[0] and America dropping the ball was the only reason they succeeded. It's not so much a big victory for the terrorists as a big black eye for America and our intelligence agencies. One of the 9/11 pilots was reported to Federal agencies multiple times[1] and the hijacking still took place. [0]https://theintercept.com/2021/09/11/september-11-saudi-arabia/ https://theintercept.com/2021/09/11/september-11-saudi-arabi... [1]https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91659&page=1 https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91659&page=1
- zeven7 4y agoIt prevented 7/15 pretty damn well
- khazhoux 4y ago7/15: Never Remember
- olliej 4y agoHow well did laws to stop isolated crazy people killing lots of people stop … um … a group of countries investing large amounts of money and years of time into planning and training for the largest single attack on a civilian target in history? I mean sure, you could also ask how laws against shoplifting fail to stop bank robberies, and it would be just as coherent.
- drewmol 4y agolargest single attack on a civilian target in history? Japan would like to have a word with you.
- whoooooo123 4y agoPerhaps "largest single attack on a civilian target by a non-state actor" would be more accurate.
- tadfisher 4y agoSurvivorship bias. You don't know how many plots were prevented by making it difficult to obtain explosive precursors.
- socialismisok 4y agoYeah, it's WAY worse to have to check the provenance of an article for sale than to have your catalytic converter stolen.
- catiopatio 4y agoYes, it is. The police can — clearly, as per this article — do their job without yet another intrusive privacy overreach being put permanently on the books.
- socialismisok 4y agoDon't ever buy art, I guess.
- giantg2 4y agoHaven't there been major scandals in the appraisal and verification, as well as art still being stolen and successfully sold in black markets? I'm hoping a law helps, but I won't hold my breath.
- bluGill 4y agoWhat helps with art is people with art want to show it off. Steal some art and you risk showing it off to someone who knows who it belongs to.
- themadturk 4y agoIs this really the case? Isn't a great deal of stolen art not shown around so it can't be identified? I wonder if most stolen art is kept in vaults and never shown to anyone.
- bluGill 4y agoSome is, but most people who steel art want to look at it.
- rosywoozlechan 4y ago> When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions? Have you ever run a business? You have to track a lot already. For the IRS, for your business license, for auditing, for compliance depending on what goods and services you sell. You know like firearms, tobacco, alcohol, pharmaceuticals are big ones, but also animals, chemicals, certain kinds of technology. If you require a federal permit, if you sell goods across state, international, if you ship things. Like, I feel like this cat came out of the bag before the 18th century, based on my understanding of the regulation of businesses in the United States.
- catiopatio 4y agoIt’s gotten considerably worse over the past 20 years; we’re asked to present ID and tracked in government databases when purchasing allergy medicine.
- rosywoozlechan 4y agoYes, if you mean pseudoephedrine, that's to stop the production of meth.
- Scoundreller 4y agoI thought it was to prevent competing with the cartels?
- colechristensen 4y agoJust as a note, this didn't work at all. They came up with a better chemistry and now there's more meth than there was before. Breaking Bad dramatized this aspect of it (though their chemistry wasn't correct on purpose).
- rosywoozlechan 4y agofentanyl I think is what's replaced meth at this point.
- krapht 4y agoJust wait until you hear about the history of anti-fencing laws dating back to the 1600s. You're missing out on centuries of outage.
- catiopatio 4y agoRidiculously targeted laws like this are quite a new invention. I see that the “[feeling of] safety above all” contingent is quite voracious about defending this latest government intrusion, so I’ll stop giving them comments to downvote.
- skeeter2020 4y agoMaybe it's how you frame anyone who wants actionable solutions as screaming "WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?"... Applying very narrow information collection requirements on a rare act that is prone to illegal activity is exactly the type of "government intrusion" we should welcome. If you want a hill to die on, pick something more meaningful.
- tqi 4y agoSomething tells me you're the kind of person who considers both people who prioritize safety more than you and less than you idiots...
- Test0129 4y agoI don't think a law like that is really a problem. There are already laws on the books similar to it (pawn shop laws and such) where KYC is a big thing to prevent the fencing of stolen goods. It can be as simple as this: 1. Joe brings in a cat 2. Store takes the cat, but writes down Joes important information (DL #, name, address, etc) 3. If Joe brings a new cat in within some reasonable time period factoring in possibly fixing a used car or something he's reported to the authorities for suspicion of theft. Exceptions to (3) can be made to people who can present the valid credentials of an auto repair shop and are operating as agents of that shop. Then the shop can be placed in the record book and tracked with different standards. With this in place you will only be able to fence X number of cats easily where X is the number of shops within some reasonable distance. You could even make this national if you really wanted to prevent transportation over a border. Sure, you could argue this won't fix anything because shops that are dirty will remain dirty. This is simply solved by having an already existing traffic enforcement body once a year check books. If your books are out of order your business is closed and an investigation is done to see if you're acting as a fence. Same as pawn shops. There is absolutely no "intrusion" to speak of here. You are in possession of a highly valuable, commonly stolen item. KYC by a company should be a minimum standard. Do you think that requiring a car title and asking for registration, etc when you sell a car to a lot is also an intrusion? I'm afraid to ask you if you even know what fencing actually is. No one is saying you can't cut your own cat off and sell it privately. The goal is to eliminate the easiest possible routes for fencing and make it not only difficult but also expensive criminally to continue.
- skeeter2020 4y agoEver been to a pawn shop? Everything in a legit operation runs through this process. >> The choice is between law enforcement actually doing their job, or invasive and ineffectual laws like this. I'm on guard for overreah all the time, but I'm OK with showing ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, fly on a plane, sell items that should rarely be done in bulk outside of rare conditions, like a bunch of catalytic converters.
- serf 4y ago>I'm on guard for overreah all the time, but I'm OK with showing ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, fly on a plane, sell items that should rarely be done in bulk outside of rare conditions, like a bunch of catalytic converters. you should probably re-evaluate your ideas about personal ID with regards to travel if you're interested in over-reach. These laws are routinely used as an anti-immigration method by ICE and equivalents, and there is very little proof that they do much to make the world any safer.
- alar44 4y agoAnyone who thinks countries and states don't have the right to control their borders has lost touch with reality.
- danielheath 4y agoSure they do, but in an ostensibly-free state is "you must unlock your devices and give immigration full access to the data within" really a reasonable position? If you wanted to bring sketchy data into the country, surely it'd be easier to do it via a VPN, right?
- WalterBright 4y agoIn Washington State, there's a new law where I not only have to show ID to buy booze, I have to have my ID scanned. So now, the government keeps track of what and how much booze I buy. Ugh. This is beyond stupid, as people stopped thinking I might be under 21 back when the buffalo roamed.
- Symbiote 4y agoLet's up the ante and see where you stand. In Britain, criminals were stealing the thick, copper cables used for power and signaling of the railway. They wrapped a chain around cables near a road crossing, attached it to a truck, and dragged a significant length of cable away, to sell as scrap. That naturally means the railway can't be used for many hours, occasionally over a day, and costs a tremendous about to repair. (It is one of the most safety-critical large systems around.) There's huge disruption, as 600 people per train every 20 minutes simply don't fit on any other means of transport. Compared to catalytic converters, the disruption to society is far greater, the replacement cost much higher, and the scrap value relatively lower. About 10 years ago, a law was introduced forbidding scrap metal dealers from paying cash, and requiring them to check ID. That led to a 30% drop in theft. Is that a reasonable law?
- WalterBright 4y agoHmm. I wonder if steel cables would work well enough?
- bluGill 4y agoIf you make them a lot bigger, copper is an excellent conductor. Silver is better yet, but not by enough to be worth the cost (contrary to popular belief, gold isn't very good, though it is better than iron) aluminum is often used as it is cheaper by enough, but it turns out of have weird properties and so extra care is needed to use it.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago>About 10 years ago, a law was introduced forbidding scrap metal dealers from paying cash, and requiring them to check ID. That led to a 30% drop in theft. My ass it did. I've worked in the metal recycling industry. Getting payment in some form other than cash doesn't deter people who were already willing to commit a crime. They have a buddy scrap it and the buddy takes a cut for taking on the risk. Yards don't want the .gov snooping around because that never leads to anything good. At the very best it's a delay and distraction. So if you come in with something the .gov is going hard on this month (cats, railway cable, whatever) they will tell you to fuck off to some other yard. And when it's a PITA to fence shit shit doesn't get stolen. That's where you're getting your 30% reduction, not the law. The government is just such a PITA to deal with that scrap yards would rather leave money on the table than have to deal with officer Donut coming by every now and then to check their books.
- x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago>...This is worse than the original problem. When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions? The U.S. has always been like this, especially since taking down the mob in the 70's and the War On Drugs in the 80's. Out of all the laws, most people aren't going to be hemmed up with catalytic converter KYC compared to things such as the War On Drugs and the watering down of the 4th amendment.