19 ms·

‘Date me’ Google Docs and the hyper-optimized quest for love

161 points by indiantinker 4y ago

intrasight 4y ago
I don't see how this is "hyper-optimized". Doesn't seen to be an attempt to optimize anything. It's just a new genre of blogging. A long-form, modern version of ads people ran in the classified section a hundred years ago. I think there should be an XML schema for these docs ;) Make it machine readable. Then we can talk about optimization.
- mortenjorck 4y ago
  A federated, open online dating protocol could be a real glimmer of hope in a world of soul-crushing IAC monopoly. Who wants to start the OpenDating 1.0 RFC?
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    > A federated, open online dating protocol A natural way to implement this would be to extend ActivityPub and build modules for Fediverse sites like Mastodon that add dating site features. (In fact, ActivityStreams already has support[0] for defining relationships between people, with "Would Like To Know" being a standardised value[1]). The searching/matching functionality would probably have to be done at the level of an aggregator, like "Social Search"[2], but what's really needed is a privacy-preserving way of only revealing your contact information to someone who matches with you. That's sort of equivalent to the "socialist millionaire problem"[3], so there could be a nice zero-knowledge protocol for implementing this. You might need to couple it with some form of proof-of-personhood / Sybil-resistance, though, to stop someone just generating every possible profile and matching with everyone else. [0] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-relationship https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-relati... [1] https://vocab.org/relationship/#wouldLikeToKnow https://vocab.org/relationship/#wouldLikeToKnow [2] https://search.noc.social/ https://search.noc.social/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_millionaire_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_millionaire_problem
  - intrasight 4y ago
    IAC?
    - intrasight 4y ago
      Ahh -- InterActiveCorp?
      - fragmede 4y ago
        yes along with Match Group they own Vimeo, Dotdash, Tinder, Match, PlentyOfFish, OkCupid and Hinge, and ANGI Homeservices, HomeAdvisor, Angie's List and Handy.
  - intrasight 4y ago
    Serious question: anything like this exist?
    - fsflover 4y ago
      https://old.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/ete9on/new_fully_opensource_online_dating_platform/ https://old.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/ete9on/new_full... https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/dating-is-a-free-software-issue https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/dating-is-a-free-softwar...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - onetimeusename 4y ago
    how would an open federated one be less soul crushing though? this is not me trying to undermine you with a passive aggressive question. I would like to hear about this idea.
    - type-r 4y ago
      Agreed. I don't really see the current apps as flexing some sort of monopolistic power to give you shittier dates. Their solution to the classic problem of asymmetric supply/demand regarding hot/not hot people is for them to take a fee.
      - citizenpaul 4y ago
        Actually match corp owns idk at the moment but something like 90% of dating apps and sites. 100% of the popular ones so they are a monopoly. There has been some decent research highly suggesting match optimizes for failure of its customers. It makes sense since in their biz a happy customer us no longer a customer.
        type-r 4y ago
        I could see that happening (whether on purpose or even inadvertently) but haven't seen any such literature myself. Do you have some references (asking earnestly)?
    - intrasight 4y ago
      I've read enough people say that these apps are "soul crushing" and people explain that sadly this characteristic is baked into the algorithms in order to a)make the apps/games addictive and b) keep people engaged, c)make people, especially men, think that there's hope - but only if they sign up for a subscription.
  - jojobas 4y ago
    If I had to guess I'd say 99.99% of profiles and profile views in such a setting would be male.
  - antupis 4y ago
    Datecoin could be the unironically be very good solution.
    - sltkr 4y ago
      Ha, it would be a total disaster. There are already a dozen or so startups doing some variant of “dating on a blockchain” and they're all doomed to failure, because 99% of the people who think that's a good idea are nerdy (read: unattractive) heterosexual men. All the gay dudes are on Tinder instead, and all the heterosexual women that like nerdy men have a gazillion options already, so any blockchain-based or open-source dating protocol would be a total sausage party.
      - antupis 4y ago
        Yup I would not personally try it because these reason but it would still be those stupid but same time kinda brilliant idea.
      - nl 4y ago
        Bizarrely, and to my utter surprise (as someone who has worked in tech all my adult life and recently decided to try crypto) I think there are more women in crypto than any other tech field I've been in. In the NFT field (as in people working in it, not holders) I'd say in some cases it would approach 50% female/male.
        nibbleshifter 4y ago
        Yep, crypto (currency) has a MUCH better gender and diversity balance than most of the rest of tech. Which is deeply funny, because a lot of the "rest of tech" likes to slam it as a "white dudes only" club.
        nl 4y ago
        > "rest of tech" likes to slam it as a "white dudes only" club I don't think this is true - at least I haven't heard that criticism in particular. In the NFT world the Vice (I think?) where they went to the BAYC party pointed out how it sort of felt like weird mix of wannabe rap artists, scam artists and tupperware sales parties. The NFT world is very racially diverse. DeFi does run white/Asian I guess.
  - trashface 4y ago
    Bumble exists too, so its a duopoly.
    - cosmojg 4y ago
      Feeld seems to be picking up steam.
    - lupire 4y ago
      Coffee Meets Bagel?
- noobermin 4y ago
  Agree with all except the XML schema in 2022, jesus christ.
  - intrasight 4y ago
    It was a joke - sort of ;)
  - fragmede 4y ago
    the other options being yaml and json? protobufs? csv? there isn't a clear winner in my mind, but as long as I'm not writing it out by hand and there's a helper library to do it for me, it's all good.
- stared 4y ago
  There was somethink like that, Geek Code: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code
fivre 4y ago
So what, they reinvented OKCupid profiles circa 2010, but self-published?
cr4nberry 4y ago
Does anyone actually do this, or is it just wired being wired?
- lalwanivikas 4y ago
  I thought about doing it, but never really got to it. Similar to what many in the articles have claimed, online dating is really really HARD. So I came to the same idea on my own. Not surprised at all.
- canjobear 4y ago
  I know several people who have done this.
- barbarr 4y ago
  My understanding so far is that it's a "thing" in Lesswrong/Rationalist circles [1-2], but I'm not sure about outside of that. [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/axmxy7kiqwcRPSGXH/are-long-form-dating-profiles-productive https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/axmxy7kiqwcRPSGXH/are-long-f... [2] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6yiayg5QWtWme4JN8/anatomy-of-a-dating-document https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6yiayg5QWtWme4JN8/anatomy-of...
  - cr4nberry 4y ago
    It doesn't really sound like that bad of an idea, considering tinder's business model of dicking people around. The only problem is getting a bunch of people to do it
- codq 4y ago
  It seems to be popular among mildly autistic tech workers.
  - cr4nberry 4y ago
    That's an oddly specific observation to make. Why them in particular?
- 4y ago
onetimeusename 4y ago
I like this idea. I have found dating apps to really push you into a box. It's strange to say that men might like monogamy because it's so reinforced that all they want is casual sex. You can't escape this box on dating apps. In my experience, in fact, stating this on dating apps pushes women away. The format is geared towards casual hookups too. You can't just abruptly go on and on about yourself and what you want to make sure the other person is a match. You will be ghosted. So as a result the dating apps push you to be brief, flirtatious, and a lot of people use completely canned, artificial profiles and pickup lines. This idea does seem freeing from that but I don't know how you would drive people to view the date me doc in order to find someone who likes you. Reaching a target audience is an age old problem.
Centigonal 4y ago
https://archive.ph/pWIPE https://archive.ph/pWIPE
bongoman37 4y ago
The propagation of the species is too important to be left to rational choices. This is why places optimized for finding partners tend to have things like alcohol, dark lighting, flashing lights, loud music etc to subdue the neocortex. These kind of attempts to treat dating like hiring are largely doomed to failure, though you might see an occasional couple hitting it off.
eekamouse 4y ago
teaearlgraycold 4y ago
If we're going to redefine dating profiles I'd like to propose my ideal: A random sampling of 10 of your recent conversations with others. I know that's not feasible and wouldn't happen if it was. But I think for me one of the most important things is figuring out who this person really is in practice.
- type-r 4y ago
  Struggling with what this would mean in practice -- do you mean like a screenshot / recording of the text / voice conversations you've had? I wonder if it might be tough to filter out things that are mostly just logistics, which personally tend to be a big percentage of my electronic-based interactions.
  - teaearlgraycold 4y ago
    I mean face-to-face interactions. The goal is to find someone that cares about others and can think selflessly on a regular basis.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  The problem with that is the heavy bias towards people having a good day, and the chilling effect it will have as everyone spends their lives talking in an instagram worthy way. Black mirror.
  - frodetb 4y ago
    Goodhart's law strikes again.
  - teaearlgraycold 4y ago
    Doesn’t matter. For me I’m looking for someone that does good to others. If people are doing that because they’ve been tricked into it then so be it.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
danielodievich 4y ago
In early oughts, like in 2001 or 2002 when I was much younger and dating my now wife, we met a young and cute girl at a theme Halloween party, and we kept in touch for other parties. She at some point met this guy which we will call Prez because that was what people called him (both his First and Last names were last names of two presidents). I remember visiting them in New Orleans after they moved away and asking how they met. Apparently they went out on some sort of blind date or something, it was set up for them by someone, really hit it off, then went home, and both wrote a long-form blog post (that was really new and fresh then) about whom they just met, while at the same time also refreshing each other's blogs to see if they wrote about each other. Apparently both finished the articles within few minutes of each other, can't remember who was first, and that was the confirmation that they should go out again. Oh and the guy programmed in TCL. shudder. I wouldn't be surprised if Prez is on this site, he was that kind of hacker.
- bjarneh 4y ago
  > Oh and the guy programmed in TCL. That's a pretty big red flag :-)
  - rollcat 4y ago
    Tcl feels like a bastard child of Lisp and shell, and is beautiful in its own unique and quirky way. I'm not surprised at all that someone would find it lovable ;)
    - nibbleshifter 4y ago
      I have a love/hate relationship with it. Every couple of years, I spend a month or two writing almost exclusively in TCL for personal projects. Its the same with Perl. And expect scripts...
      - thom 4y ago
        Every few years I look at Scid, the chess app, and think about learning Tcl just to be able to add stuff to it but then life starts seeming very short.
twer2343434 4y ago
It seems, the world is stumbling back onto the Hindu-system of having multiple 'jatis' that hyper-specialize in everything from archery to metallurgy to mathematics, and basically turning into endogamous communities for much better success in partnership. Many 'elites' I run into are already doing this. (The trouble Indians face today is that these medieval groupings are no longer functionally meaningful - all the rest of it is 'anti-heathen' bullshit that derives more from Christian propaganda than lived reality.)
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  Had to look up "jati" cause I wasn't sure if it was a person, place, or thing: > (Hinduism) a Hindu caste or distinctive social group of which there are thousands throughout India; a special characteristic is often the exclusive occupation of its male members (such as barber or potter)
bitwize 4y ago
This article and the comments on it are veering into creepy, Richard Stallman "pleasure card" (or Chris Chan "love sign") territory.
type-r 4y ago
People like to rag on dating apps -- they're shallow, promote surface-level judgements / interactions. But I think this is simply mirroring how things works in the real world (in very early considerations of who to approach). Getting this person out of the app into an in-person conversation should be the goal. A 'date me' profile feels like the opposite -- trying to get a bunch of data on someone before actually interacting with them in person. I think this is completely backwards and we need to lean in far more into IRL experiences.
- Eleison23 4y ago
  Users of dating apps are often warned that they should do due diligence and use caution when moving from the moderated, patrolled environs of the app into another mode of communication or encounter. Creeps and stalkers will often try to get a woman's contact info (email, phone, GPS) so that they can continue pursuit and evade scrutiny by the dating app's monitors, who are often very good at identifying and banning unscrupulous people who are not in it to win it, so to speak. Of course, yes, a dating app's ultimate goal is meeting in person and striking up a real relationship. But anyone crossing that boundary had better be very sure that they've gotten to know the person and they really can trust that an encounter won't turn into a craigslist murder. Interesting case in point. My erstwhile fiancee and I met on a MMORPG in 2008. She lived in Europe and I live in these United States. She inquired politely of our mutual friends and acquaintances and then promptly booked a flight to visit me. Then she applied firm feminine pressure and caused me to fly to Europe and visit her for a month. As it turns out, I was not ready for the kind of relationship she sought and we flamed out spectacularly. She could not have expected this after how it went on that MMORPG and based on the reputation I had there among the other gamers. But if she'd asked real-world friends... it might've been a different story.
  - borissk 4y ago
    >> Of course, yes, a dating app's ultimate goal is meeting in person and striking up a real relationship. How naive :) Dating apps are many billion dollars businesses - users striking up a real relationship are lost customers and profits to them and they optimize their algorithms against it.
raydiatian 4y ago
Hot-take: Are social media platforms all fundamentally just fad services that burn out due to bad design decision accumulation and/or unsustainable business models? Friendster. AIM. Match. MySpace. Facebook. Tumblr. Flickr. Tinder. Twitter? TikTok? All dying or dead. Elon is going to break Twitter. Will the US gov ban TikTok? What will come after? Only exception I can imagine is Reddit, although it may just be slower given that it’s more of a forum than social media. It has its own myriad of technical problems that bog it down.
- thrown_22 4y ago
  >Only exception I can imagine is Reddit, although it may just be slower given that it’s more of a forum than social media. It has its own myriad of technical problems that bog it down. Reddit has banned everyone interesting that used to post there. Now it's just repost bots replaying to repost bots.
  - jrgoff 4y ago
    That's not my experience, but I mostly only subscribe and read smaller subreddits many of which I have found quite interesting and helpful.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      Then you're not looking very far. Go to a discussion from 5 years ago which talked about something useful in any topic and you'd find more than half the people were banned.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  yes and no. Some social media sites are still around after a long time but I think a big perk of these apps is having an 'in crowd' that produces content. Once the site is too popular it attracts people who are no longer in the in crowd and people move on. What does this have to do with the post though?
tinglymintyfrsh 4y ago
I don't see how anyone besides this one, random, survivor-biased Twitter dude will have any luck with throwing a message-in-a-bottle doc out there. No one will ever read it. They'd have better luck posting flyers at bus stops and near Whole Foods. There's a balance between being organized and tilting at windmills seeking a love "algorithm". Get your sh*t together and it will come. Or be hot and have fun. In bragging-disclaimer: I live in a major metro (with a respected university) where there's an infinite supply of women and no real need for a dating app. I don't understand hookup apps as they feel gross and Brave New World to me while dating apps feel loser-ish for people who can't socialize but are desperate.
- wodenokoto 4y ago
  Where did you socialize during Covid?
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    Outside, at a nearby park after the first couple of weeks of lockdown. People with vague senses of sense recognised outdoor hangouts were basically zero risk.
- popinman322 4y ago
  > while dating apps feel loser-ish for people who can't socialize but are desperate. Apps allow you be to visible to other people who are also open to getting together. Not all of the "infinite supply of women" in your area want to be approached at stores, work, on the sidewalk, etc.. Giving them control over who can talk to them (and when) can make dating a safer experience. Further, there may be people with similar interests who live further away and don't frequent your circuit of clubs, bars, or wherever else you meet people. Apps can bridge those distances too. And for other populations like LGBT folks, where they're a minority seeking a minority, apps are basically required in certain areas. Your view here feels overly reductive.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    The sweet spot might be singles nights and events. You go expecting to maybe be chatted up but it is in the physical realm. But yes nothing wrong with using online tools. Same arguments can be made about online food ordering or job searches.
hnarayanan 4y ago
I’m fully convinced long form writing is the way to go and working on an app/site based on this premise: https://textually.app/ https://textually.app/
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > "you need to be properly verified (as an actual person) before being allowed to post" What method are you planning to use to determine whether a person is "actual" or not? (Also you talk about going "from blobs of text to more structured data", but is the plan to allow keyword searching for common interests, and allow filtering out profiles based on attributes you are not compatible with, once this structured data is available? I can imagine the UX being quite frustrating for, say, someone who only wants to date a vegan, if they end up having to read thousands of words from dozens of people before finding that keyword. At that point it would make more sense to write a browser extension that automates the "Ctrl-F" and "swipe left" steps until it finds a relevant profile.)
  - hnarayanan 4y ago
    (Disclaimer: I am making this all up as I go along. I just have a vague hunch that there exists a world of people who prefer reading long form text over swiping anything.) 1. I am imagining it to be really small, so either personal referrals or actual verification of people. 2. And yes, once there is some structure forming in the data, it will allow for labelling and searching on these criteria. This is how it naturally evolves, e.g. in subreddits that invent their own lexicon and labelling allowing for quick filtering.
seydor 4y ago
so why dont we have AI for mating?
- ambicapter 4y ago
  ...Isn't that just your brain?
- jacooper 4y ago
  suggested hot girls in your area!
  - seydor 4y ago
    *girl . Singular. The AI has found the One and can never be wrong
_9hey 4y ago
There are several misuse cases when publishing the source code to your heart. Namely, bad actors will know how to hack you.
DeathArrow 4y ago
>Normal online dating seems pretty suboptimal. Recently, I’ve seen several people experiment with public ‘date me’ docs Why not write a message on the walls or post ads on phone poles?
googlryas 4y ago
What's wrong with me that I never used dating apps and never had problems finding people to date through friend of friends or social-oriented clubs(ie intramural sports leagues)? Are my standards just too low? Everyone I've dated I've already known on a platonic level - I think it would be really weird to go out on a date where you've basically just looked at their picture.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Lots of people just don’t have that kind of friends network.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  It’s an attractor some social circles get stuck in. All my friends and all my friends’ friends are on dating apps, and all the new couples I’ve known since college met on dating apps. It is weird, and nobody I’ve talked to likes dating apps, but no one individual can really break the equilibrium.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > through friend of friends or social-oriented clubs Seems likely a limited pool of relatively homogenous people to date in? That's why people use apps - to meet different people outside their friend and hobby groups. And I think a lot of people very specifically don't want to date in friend and hobby groups, to avoid mess.
- hnhorrorshow 4y ago
  I mean, you're probably not freakishly ugly and cringe-inducing like most of the crazies on HN. Oddly enough, it's not my sharp mind, good looks or impeccable charm that keeps the ladies interested IRL. It's my reputation for being utterly despised by dang.
  - trashface 4y ago
    Wait so if I put "Despised by dang" on my profile I might get more matches? I have to try that.
langsoul-com 4y ago
Actually difficult to find dates irl. Beyond apps, or any methods, lots of females are just busy with life. They got friends, hobbies, social media, endless entertainment and a career path. I wonder if we'll go the way of Japan, where virtual girlfriends and virtual social lives are increasingly seen as a better option then real life relationships. As technology gets better, I think this will be a more default option for people. Imagine dating someone that's always available, always interested in you and your hobbies, and there's never any need to compromise. You can pause them at any time when you are tired etc. Not to mention less and less people have best friends or friends. More interactions is purely virtual. At some point, if a bot passed the Turing test, what's the difference? Virtual youtubers have a mass following despite being a purely virtual being. Could an AI model be trained to act like them, with the latest AI voices that sound real? Honestly, I'm the same. Dating is just so time consuming and there's no many other things I want to do. Work is already 6+ hours, watching anime, playing games, reading, writing, doing podcast and walking. So much I want to do and so little time. Or maybe I'm just saying this cause I have no partner kek
- bckr 4y ago
  > females Callin 'em "women" would be a step in the right direction re: dating.
  - Elinvynia 4y ago
    Unless you're a Ferengi, then it's okay!
- KronisLV 4y ago
  > At some point, if a bot passed the Turing test, what's the difference? Virtual youtubers have a mass following despite being a purely virtual being. Could an AI model be trained to act like them, with the latest AI voices that sound real? There have actually been attempts at creating AI chatbots for companionship, like Replika: https://replika.ai/ https://replika.ai/ It was curious to take a look at it, but it very obviously had its limitations and was directed towards watered down conversation and whatnot, for being marketable. Probably still useful or therapeutic for some folks to talk or vent when nobody is available! That said, the idea of actually building "relationships" with bots has garnered some criticism, here's one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQNiy4K7VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQNiy4K7VU It is exaggerated for views, but at the end of the day you'd still end up with a possibly unhealthy substitute for an actual human connection, much like attempting to replace aspects of intimacy with pornography. Even outside of things like that, parasocial relationships usually aren't very healthy either, since you're still an audience, as opposed to interacting 1:1 with another person. Also, those VTubers still have real people behind them, with their own senses of humor, personalities and other aspects, which wouldn't even be easy for AI to replicate or substitute. Personally, I try not to be too judgmental of these things, because everything that I named probably has a place in the lives of many folks out there, but looking for ways of turning away from human relationships reminds me of something like "Bowling Alone": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone I also say that as someone who isn't doing too well with dating, admittedly.
Manuel_D 4y ago
Interestingly, the date-me doc linked in the title [1] has apparently been taken down for ToS violations. 1. https://twitter.com/ch402/status/1564631228166201345?s=20&t=AonpoaLPS2d_01HP0H-BpA https://twitter.com/ch402/status/1564631228166201345?s=20&t=...
club_tropical 4y ago
Dating apps enormously improve discoverability - find like-minded people in roughly the same area, but whom you'd never meet. It's not like the day before dating apps you had this rich network and you lost it. It's a net plus. You can still do IRL, in fact you might have better chances at it, because it is a rarer skill.
- mettamage 4y ago
  Agree with discoverability. I met some fellow programmers :)
  - club_tropical 4y ago
    Were they girls though? :P
    - mettamage 4y ago
      Yep ;-)
  - trashface 4y ago
    In my area (suburbs) the only women's profiles I saw in Hinge that were programmers were in Standouts - which basically means they are unmatchable. You can try, but you will fail.
gverrilla 4y ago
Clearly not the future of dating.
rayiner 4y ago
Paradox of choice. What’s interesting to me is that despite the enormous amount of effort Americans put into dating, the couples don’t seem any happier or better matched than the facilitated marriages where I’m from.
drooby 4y ago
The best way to "optimize" for dating is to: 2) Become hot and 2) become happy. A happy and hot person is someone more people want to be around. If more people want to hang out with you, you have more options, become less needy, become more clear headed ... list goes on, it's a virtuous cycle. Using the scale of 1-10 is not great, but its mildly accurate... most people, via work on their character, attitude, physic, lifestyle, finances, fashion, etc. can bump themselves up as much as like 3-6 "levels" on the "hot scale". Seriously. Some people can go from like a 3 to an 8. One's life changes drastically when this happens. Doesn't matter if its a dating app, bar, friend of friend, w.e. It's much easier to find a partner if a person is very satisfied with who you are.
- EveYoung 4y ago
  For me, it always comes down to genuine self-esteem. Someone's fashion style, physic, or facial symmetry really doesn't matter if they have no confidence in themselves.
  - kokonoko 4y ago
    But it does matter if the have.
  - lupire 4y ago
    In other words, have something to offer that is worth more to others than it is to you,so people want to be around you but don't drag you down. (This is looking-gglass similar but very diffrent from desperately simping, which costs you more than it benefits them).
- pcrh 4y ago
  Agreed. Perhaps it's due to the people who frequent HN, but it's amusing to see so many think they can "algorithm" their way into the relationship(s) they want. Some even proposing blockchain solutions!
Cockbrand 4y ago
Possibly tangential, but I'm currently reading a very interesting and insightful comic book by the (IMHO) great Liv Strömqvist. She describes that romantic love is muchly devaluated because it's not perceived as a magical/mystical thing any more. These days, love and dating are driven by data and measurements, just like everything else. She argues that this makes it essentially much more rationally accessible and consequently a lot weaker. The book is apparently not available in English yet, but will be released by Fantagraphics [1]. I found the insights very eye-opening and frankly somewhat depressing. [1] https://www.fantagraphics.com/collections/liv-stromquist/products/the-reddest-rose-romantic-love-from-the-ancient-greeks-to-reality-tv https://www.fantagraphics.com/collections/liv-stromquist/pro...

161 points by indiantinker 4y ago

I don't see how this is "hyper-optimized". Doesn't seen to be an attempt to optimize anything. It's just a new genre of blogging. A long-form, modern version of ads people ran in the classified section a hundred years ago. I think there should be an XML schema for these docs ;) Make it machine readable. Then we can talk about optimization.

mortenjorck 4y ago
A federated, open online dating protocol could be a real glimmer of hope in a world of soul-crushing IAC monopoly. Who wants to start the OpenDating 1.0 RFC?
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > A federated, open online dating protocol A natural way to implement this would be to extend ActivityPub and build modules for Fediverse sites like Mastodon that add dating site features. (In fact, ActivityStreams already has support[0] for defining relationships between people, with "Would Like To Know" being a standardised value[1]). The searching/matching functionality would probably have to be done at the level of an aggregator, like "Social Search"[2], but what's really needed is a privacy-preserving way of only revealing your contact information to someone who matches with you. That's sort of equivalent to the "socialist millionaire problem"[3], so there could be a nice zero-knowledge protocol for implementing this. You might need to couple it with some form of proof-of-personhood / Sybil-resistance, though, to stop someone just generating every possible profile and matching with everyone else. [0] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-relationship https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-relati... [1] https://vocab.org/relationship/#wouldLikeToKnow https://vocab.org/relationship/#wouldLikeToKnow [2] https://search.noc.social/ https://search.noc.social/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_millionaire_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_millionaire_problem
- intrasight 4y ago
  IAC?
  - intrasight 4y ago
    Ahh -- InterActiveCorp?
    - fragmede 4y ago
      yes along with Match Group they own Vimeo, Dotdash, Tinder, Match, PlentyOfFish, OkCupid and Hinge, and ANGI Homeservices, HomeAdvisor, Angie's List and Handy.
- intrasight 4y ago
  Serious question: anything like this exist?
  - fsflover 4y ago
    https://old.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/ete9on/new_fully_opensource_online_dating_platform/ https://old.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/ete9on/new_full... https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/dating-is-a-free-software-issue https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/dating-is-a-free-softwar...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  how would an open federated one be less soul crushing though? this is not me trying to undermine you with a passive aggressive question. I would like to hear about this idea.
  - type-r 4y ago
    Agreed. I don't really see the current apps as flexing some sort of monopolistic power to give you shittier dates. Their solution to the classic problem of asymmetric supply/demand regarding hot/not hot people is for them to take a fee.
    - citizenpaul 4y ago
      Actually match corp owns idk at the moment but something like 90% of dating apps and sites. 100% of the popular ones so they are a monopoly. There has been some decent research highly suggesting match optimizes for failure of its customers. It makes sense since in their biz a happy customer us no longer a customer.
      - type-r 4y ago
        I could see that happening (whether on purpose or even inadvertently) but haven't seen any such literature myself. Do you have some references (asking earnestly)?
  - intrasight 4y ago
    I've read enough people say that these apps are "soul crushing" and people explain that sadly this characteristic is baked into the algorithms in order to a)make the apps/games addictive and b) keep people engaged, c)make people, especially men, think that there's hope - but only if they sign up for a subscription.
- jojobas 4y ago
  If I had to guess I'd say 99.99% of profiles and profile views in such a setting would be male.
- antupis 4y ago
  Datecoin could be the unironically be very good solution.
  - sltkr 4y ago
    Ha, it would be a total disaster. There are already a dozen or so startups doing some variant of “dating on a blockchain” and they're all doomed to failure, because 99% of the people who think that's a good idea are nerdy (read: unattractive) heterosexual men. All the gay dudes are on Tinder instead, and all the heterosexual women that like nerdy men have a gazillion options already, so any blockchain-based or open-source dating protocol would be a total sausage party.
    - antupis 4y ago
      Yup I would not personally try it because these reason but it would still be those stupid but same time kinda brilliant idea.
    - nl 4y ago
      Bizarrely, and to my utter surprise (as someone who has worked in tech all my adult life and recently decided to try crypto) I think there are more women in crypto than any other tech field I've been in. In the NFT field (as in people working in it, not holders) I'd say in some cases it would approach 50% female/male.
      - nibbleshifter 4y ago
        Yep, crypto (currency) has a MUCH better gender and diversity balance than most of the rest of tech. Which is deeply funny, because a lot of the "rest of tech" likes to slam it as a "white dudes only" club.
        nl 4y ago
        > "rest of tech" likes to slam it as a "white dudes only" club I don't think this is true - at least I haven't heard that criticism in particular. In the NFT world the Vice (I think?) where they went to the BAYC party pointed out how it sort of felt like weird mix of wannabe rap artists, scam artists and tupperware sales parties. The NFT world is very racially diverse. DeFi does run white/Asian I guess.
- trashface 4y ago
  Bumble exists too, so its a duopoly.
  - cosmojg 4y ago
    Feeld seems to be picking up steam.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Coffee Meets Bagel?
noobermin 4y ago
Agree with all except the XML schema in 2022, jesus christ.
- intrasight 4y ago
  It was a joke - sort of ;)
- fragmede 4y ago
  the other options being yaml and json? protobufs? csv? there isn't a clear winner in my mind, but as long as I'm not writing it out by hand and there's a helper library to do it for me, it's all good.
stared 4y ago
There was somethink like that, Geek Code: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code

fivre 4y ago

So what, they reinvented OKCupid profiles circa 2010, but self-published?

cr4nberry 4y ago

Does anyone actually do this, or is it just wired being wired?

lalwanivikas 4y ago
I thought about doing it, but never really got to it. Similar to what many in the articles have claimed, online dating is really really HARD. So I came to the same idea on my own. Not surprised at all.
canjobear 4y ago
I know several people who have done this.
barbarr 4y ago
My understanding so far is that it's a "thing" in Lesswrong/Rationalist circles [1-2], but I'm not sure about outside of that. [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/axmxy7kiqwcRPSGXH/are-long-form-dating-profiles-productive https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/axmxy7kiqwcRPSGXH/are-long-f... [2] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6yiayg5QWtWme4JN8/anatomy-of-a-dating-document https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6yiayg5QWtWme4JN8/anatomy-of...
- cr4nberry 4y ago
  It doesn't really sound like that bad of an idea, considering tinder's business model of dicking people around. The only problem is getting a bunch of people to do it
codq 4y ago
It seems to be popular among mildly autistic tech workers.
- cr4nberry 4y ago
  That's an oddly specific observation to make. Why them in particular?
4y ago

onetimeusename 4y ago

I like this idea. I have found dating apps to really push you into a box. It's strange to say that men might like monogamy because it's so reinforced that all they want is casual sex. You can't escape this box on dating apps. In my experience, in fact, stating this on dating apps pushes women away. The format is geared towards casual hookups too. You can't just abruptly go on and on about yourself and what you want to make sure the other person is a match. You will be ghosted. So as a result the dating apps push you to be brief, flirtatious, and a lot of people use completely canned, artificial profiles and pickup lines. This idea does seem freeing from that but I don't know how you would drive people to view the date me doc in order to find someone who likes you. Reaching a target audience is an age old problem.

Centigonal 4y ago

https://archive.ph/pWIPE https://archive.ph/pWIPE

bongoman37 4y ago

The propagation of the species is too important to be left to rational choices. This is why places optimized for finding partners tend to have things like alcohol, dark lighting, flashing lights, loud music etc to subdue the neocortex. These kind of attempts to treat dating like hiring are largely doomed to failure, though you might see an occasional couple hitting it off.

eekamouse 4y ago

teaearlgraycold 4y ago

If we're going to redefine dating profiles I'd like to propose my ideal: A random sampling of 10 of your recent conversations with others. I know that's not feasible and wouldn't happen if it was. But I think for me one of the most important things is figuring out who this person really is in practice.

type-r 4y ago
Struggling with what this would mean in practice -- do you mean like a screenshot / recording of the text / voice conversations you've had? I wonder if it might be tough to filter out things that are mostly just logistics, which personally tend to be a big percentage of my electronic-based interactions.
- teaearlgraycold 4y ago
  I mean face-to-face interactions. The goal is to find someone that cares about others and can think selflessly on a regular basis.
quickthrower2 4y ago
The problem with that is the heavy bias towards people having a good day, and the chilling effect it will have as everyone spends their lives talking in an instagram worthy way. Black mirror.
- frodetb 4y ago
  Goodhart's law strikes again.
- teaearlgraycold 4y ago
  Doesn’t matter. For me I’m looking for someone that does good to others. If people are doing that because they’ve been tricked into it then so be it.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago

danielodievich 4y ago

In early oughts, like in 2001 or 2002 when I was much younger and dating my now wife, we met a young and cute girl at a theme Halloween party, and we kept in touch for other parties. She at some point met this guy which we will call Prez because that was what people called him (both his First and Last names were last names of two presidents). I remember visiting them in New Orleans after they moved away and asking how they met. Apparently they went out on some sort of blind date or something, it was set up for them by someone, really hit it off, then went home, and both wrote a long-form blog post (that was really new and fresh then) about whom they just met, while at the same time also refreshing each other's blogs to see if they wrote about each other. Apparently both finished the articles within few minutes of each other, can't remember who was first, and that was the confirmation that they should go out again. Oh and the guy programmed in TCL. shudder. I wouldn't be surprised if Prez is on this site, he was that kind of hacker.

bjarneh 4y ago
> Oh and the guy programmed in TCL. That's a pretty big red flag :-)
- rollcat 4y ago
  Tcl feels like a bastard child of Lisp and shell, and is beautiful in its own unique and quirky way. I'm not surprised at all that someone would find it lovable ;)
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    I have a love/hate relationship with it. Every couple of years, I spend a month or two writing almost exclusively in TCL for personal projects. Its the same with Perl. And expect scripts...
    - thom 4y ago
      Every few years I look at Scid, the chess app, and think about learning Tcl just to be able to add stuff to it but then life starts seeming very short.

twer2343434 4y ago

It seems, the world is stumbling back onto the Hindu-system of having multiple 'jatis' that hyper-specialize in everything from archery to metallurgy to mathematics, and basically turning into endogamous communities for much better success in partnership. Many 'elites' I run into are already doing this. (The trouble Indians face today is that these medieval groupings are no longer functionally meaningful - all the rest of it is 'anti-heathen' bullshit that derives more from Christian propaganda than lived reality.)

ReactiveJelly 4y ago
Had to look up "jati" cause I wasn't sure if it was a person, place, or thing: > (Hinduism) a Hindu caste or distinctive social group of which there are thousands throughout India; a special characteristic is often the exclusive occupation of its male members (such as barber or potter)

bitwize 4y ago

This article and the comments on it are veering into creepy, Richard Stallman "pleasure card" (or Chris Chan "love sign") territory.

type-r 4y ago

People like to rag on dating apps -- they're shallow, promote surface-level judgements / interactions. But I think this is simply mirroring how things works in the real world (in very early considerations of who to approach). Getting this person out of the app into an in-person conversation should be the goal. A 'date me' profile feels like the opposite -- trying to get a bunch of data on someone before actually interacting with them in person. I think this is completely backwards and we need to lean in far more into IRL experiences.

Eleison23 4y ago
Users of dating apps are often warned that they should do due diligence and use caution when moving from the moderated, patrolled environs of the app into another mode of communication or encounter. Creeps and stalkers will often try to get a woman's contact info (email, phone, GPS) so that they can continue pursuit and evade scrutiny by the dating app's monitors, who are often very good at identifying and banning unscrupulous people who are not in it to win it, so to speak. Of course, yes, a dating app's ultimate goal is meeting in person and striking up a real relationship. But anyone crossing that boundary had better be very sure that they've gotten to know the person and they really can trust that an encounter won't turn into a craigslist murder. Interesting case in point. My erstwhile fiancee and I met on a MMORPG in 2008. She lived in Europe and I live in these United States. She inquired politely of our mutual friends and acquaintances and then promptly booked a flight to visit me. Then she applied firm feminine pressure and caused me to fly to Europe and visit her for a month. As it turns out, I was not ready for the kind of relationship she sought and we flamed out spectacularly. She could not have expected this after how it went on that MMORPG and based on the reputation I had there among the other gamers. But if she'd asked real-world friends... it might've been a different story.
- borissk 4y ago
  >> Of course, yes, a dating app's ultimate goal is meeting in person and striking up a real relationship. How naive :) Dating apps are many billion dollars businesses - users striking up a real relationship are lost customers and profits to them and they optimize their algorithms against it.

raydiatian 4y ago

Hot-take: Are social media platforms all fundamentally just fad services that burn out due to bad design decision accumulation and/or unsustainable business models? Friendster. AIM. Match. MySpace. Facebook. Tumblr. Flickr. Tinder. Twitter? TikTok? All dying or dead. Elon is going to break Twitter. Will the US gov ban TikTok? What will come after? Only exception I can imagine is Reddit, although it may just be slower given that it’s more of a forum than social media. It has its own myriad of technical problems that bog it down.

thrown_22 4y ago
>Only exception I can imagine is Reddit, although it may just be slower given that it’s more of a forum than social media. It has its own myriad of technical problems that bog it down. Reddit has banned everyone interesting that used to post there. Now it's just repost bots replaying to repost bots.
- jrgoff 4y ago
  That's not my experience, but I mostly only subscribe and read smaller subreddits many of which I have found quite interesting and helpful.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    Then you're not looking very far. Go to a discussion from 5 years ago which talked about something useful in any topic and you'd find more than half the people were banned.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
onetimeusename 4y ago
yes and no. Some social media sites are still around after a long time but I think a big perk of these apps is having an 'in crowd' that produces content. Once the site is too popular it attracts people who are no longer in the in crowd and people move on. What does this have to do with the post though?

tinglymintyfrsh 4y ago

I don't see how anyone besides this one, random, survivor-biased Twitter dude will have any luck with throwing a message-in-a-bottle doc out there. No one will ever read it. They'd have better luck posting flyers at bus stops and near Whole Foods. There's a balance between being organized and tilting at windmills seeking a love "algorithm". Get your sh*t together and it will come. Or be hot and have fun. In bragging-disclaimer: I live in a major metro (with a respected university) where there's an infinite supply of women and no real need for a dating app. I don't understand hookup apps as they feel gross and Brave New World to me while dating apps feel loser-ish for people who can't socialize but are desperate.

wodenokoto 4y ago
Where did you socialize during Covid?
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Outside, at a nearby park after the first couple of weeks of lockdown. People with vague senses of sense recognised outdoor hangouts were basically zero risk.
popinman322 4y ago
> while dating apps feel loser-ish for people who can't socialize but are desperate. Apps allow you be to visible to other people who are also open to getting together. Not all of the "infinite supply of women" in your area want to be approached at stores, work, on the sidewalk, etc.. Giving them control over who can talk to them (and when) can make dating a safer experience. Further, there may be people with similar interests who live further away and don't frequent your circuit of clubs, bars, or wherever else you meet people. Apps can bridge those distances too. And for other populations like LGBT folks, where they're a minority seeking a minority, apps are basically required in certain areas. Your view here feels overly reductive.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  The sweet spot might be singles nights and events. You go expecting to maybe be chatted up but it is in the physical realm. But yes nothing wrong with using online tools. Same arguments can be made about online food ordering or job searches.

hnarayanan 4y ago

I’m fully convinced long form writing is the way to go and working on an app/site based on this premise: https://textually.app/ https://textually.app/

dane-pgp 4y ago
> "you need to be properly verified (as an actual person) before being allowed to post" What method are you planning to use to determine whether a person is "actual" or not? (Also you talk about going "from blobs of text to more structured data", but is the plan to allow keyword searching for common interests, and allow filtering out profiles based on attributes you are not compatible with, once this structured data is available? I can imagine the UX being quite frustrating for, say, someone who only wants to date a vegan, if they end up having to read thousands of words from dozens of people before finding that keyword. At that point it would make more sense to write a browser extension that automates the "Ctrl-F" and "swipe left" steps until it finds a relevant profile.)
- hnarayanan 4y ago
  (Disclaimer: I am making this all up as I go along. I just have a vague hunch that there exists a world of people who prefer reading long form text over swiping anything.) 1. I am imagining it to be really small, so either personal referrals or actual verification of people. 2. And yes, once there is some structure forming in the data, it will allow for labelling and searching on these criteria. This is how it naturally evolves, e.g. in subreddits that invent their own lexicon and labelling allowing for quick filtering.

seydor 4y ago

so why dont we have AI for mating?

ambicapter 4y ago
...Isn't that just your brain?
jacooper 4y ago
suggested hot girls in your area!
- seydor 4y ago
  *girl . Singular. The AI has found the One and can never be wrong

_9hey 4y ago

There are several misuse cases when publishing the source code to your heart. Namely, bad actors will know how to hack you.

DeathArrow 4y ago

>Normal online dating seems pretty suboptimal. Recently, I’ve seen several people experiment with public ‘date me’ docs Why not write a message on the walls or post ads on phone poles?

googlryas 4y ago

What's wrong with me that I never used dating apps and never had problems finding people to date through friend of friends or social-oriented clubs(ie intramural sports leagues)? Are my standards just too low? Everyone I've dated I've already known on a platonic level - I think it would be really weird to go out on a date where you've basically just looked at their picture.

colechristensen 4y ago
Lots of people just don’t have that kind of friends network.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
It’s an attractor some social circles get stuck in. All my friends and all my friends’ friends are on dating apps, and all the new couples I’ve known since college met on dating apps. It is weird, and nobody I’ve talked to likes dating apps, but no one individual can really break the equilibrium.
chrisseaton 4y ago
> through friend of friends or social-oriented clubs Seems likely a limited pool of relatively homogenous people to date in? That's why people use apps - to meet different people outside their friend and hobby groups. And I think a lot of people very specifically don't want to date in friend and hobby groups, to avoid mess.
hnhorrorshow 4y ago
I mean, you're probably not freakishly ugly and cringe-inducing like most of the crazies on HN. Oddly enough, it's not my sharp mind, good looks or impeccable charm that keeps the ladies interested IRL. It's my reputation for being utterly despised by dang.
- trashface 4y ago
  Wait so if I put "Despised by dang" on my profile I might get more matches? I have to try that.

langsoul-com 4y ago

Actually difficult to find dates irl. Beyond apps, or any methods, lots of females are just busy with life. They got friends, hobbies, social media, endless entertainment and a career path. I wonder if we'll go the way of Japan, where virtual girlfriends and virtual social lives are increasingly seen as a better option then real life relationships. As technology gets better, I think this will be a more default option for people. Imagine dating someone that's always available, always interested in you and your hobbies, and there's never any need to compromise. You can pause them at any time when you are tired etc. Not to mention less and less people have best friends or friends. More interactions is purely virtual. At some point, if a bot passed the Turing test, what's the difference? Virtual youtubers have a mass following despite being a purely virtual being. Could an AI model be trained to act like them, with the latest AI voices that sound real? Honestly, I'm the same. Dating is just so time consuming and there's no many other things I want to do. Work is already 6+ hours, watching anime, playing games, reading, writing, doing podcast and walking. So much I want to do and so little time. Or maybe I'm just saying this cause I have no partner kek

bckr 4y ago
> females Callin 'em "women" would be a step in the right direction re: dating.
- Elinvynia 4y ago
  Unless you're a Ferengi, then it's okay!
KronisLV 4y ago
> At some point, if a bot passed the Turing test, what's the difference? Virtual youtubers have a mass following despite being a purely virtual being. Could an AI model be trained to act like them, with the latest AI voices that sound real? There have actually been attempts at creating AI chatbots for companionship, like Replika: https://replika.ai/ https://replika.ai/ It was curious to take a look at it, but it very obviously had its limitations and was directed towards watered down conversation and whatnot, for being marketable. Probably still useful or therapeutic for some folks to talk or vent when nobody is available! That said, the idea of actually building "relationships" with bots has garnered some criticism, here's one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQNiy4K7VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQNiy4K7VU It is exaggerated for views, but at the end of the day you'd still end up with a possibly unhealthy substitute for an actual human connection, much like attempting to replace aspects of intimacy with pornography. Even outside of things like that, parasocial relationships usually aren't very healthy either, since you're still an audience, as opposed to interacting 1:1 with another person. Also, those VTubers still have real people behind them, with their own senses of humor, personalities and other aspects, which wouldn't even be easy for AI to replicate or substitute. Personally, I try not to be too judgmental of these things, because everything that I named probably has a place in the lives of many folks out there, but looking for ways of turning away from human relationships reminds me of something like "Bowling Alone": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone I also say that as someone who isn't doing too well with dating, admittedly.

Manuel_D 4y ago

Interestingly, the date-me doc linked in the title [1] has apparently been taken down for ToS violations. 1. https://twitter.com/ch402/status/1564631228166201345?s=20&t=AonpoaLPS2d_01HP0H-BpA https://twitter.com/ch402/status/1564631228166201345?s=20&t=...

club_tropical 4y ago

Dating apps enormously improve discoverability - find like-minded people in roughly the same area, but whom you'd never meet. It's not like the day before dating apps you had this rich network and you lost it. It's a net plus. You can still do IRL, in fact you might have better chances at it, because it is a rarer skill.

mettamage 4y ago
Agree with discoverability. I met some fellow programmers :)
- club_tropical 4y ago
  Were they girls though? :P
  - mettamage 4y ago
    Yep ;-)
- trashface 4y ago
  In my area (suburbs) the only women's profiles I saw in Hinge that were programmers were in Standouts - which basically means they are unmatchable. You can try, but you will fail.

gverrilla 4y ago

Clearly not the future of dating.

rayiner 4y ago

Paradox of choice. What’s interesting to me is that despite the enormous amount of effort Americans put into dating, the couples don’t seem any happier or better matched than the facilitated marriages where I’m from.

drooby 4y ago

The best way to "optimize" for dating is to: 2) Become hot and 2) become happy. A happy and hot person is someone more people want to be around. If more people want to hang out with you, you have more options, become less needy, become more clear headed ... list goes on, it's a virtuous cycle. Using the scale of 1-10 is not great, but its mildly accurate... most people, via work on their character, attitude, physic, lifestyle, finances, fashion, etc. can bump themselves up as much as like 3-6 "levels" on the "hot scale". Seriously. Some people can go from like a 3 to an 8. One's life changes drastically when this happens. Doesn't matter if its a dating app, bar, friend of friend, w.e. It's much easier to find a partner if a person is very satisfied with who you are.

EveYoung 4y ago
For me, it always comes down to genuine self-esteem. Someone's fashion style, physic, or facial symmetry really doesn't matter if they have no confidence in themselves.
- kokonoko 4y ago
  But it does matter if the have.
- lupire 4y ago
  In other words, have something to offer that is worth more to others than it is to you,so people want to be around you but don't drag you down. (This is looking-gglass similar but very diffrent from desperately simping, which costs you more than it benefits them).
pcrh 4y ago
Agreed. Perhaps it's due to the people who frequent HN, but it's amusing to see so many think they can "algorithm" their way into the relationship(s) they want. Some even proposing blockchain solutions!

Cockbrand 4y ago

Possibly tangential, but I'm currently reading a very interesting and insightful comic book by the (IMHO) great Liv Strömqvist. She describes that romantic love is muchly devaluated because it's not perceived as a magical/mystical thing any more. These days, love and dating are driven by data and measurements, just like everything else. She argues that this makes it essentially much more rationally accessible and consequently a lot weaker. The book is apparently not available in English yet, but will be released by Fantagraphics [1]. I found the insights very eye-opening and frankly somewhat depressing. [1] https://www.fantagraphics.com/collections/liv-stromquist/products/the-reddest-rose-romantic-love-from-the-ancient-greeks-to-reality-tv https://www.fantagraphics.com/collections/liv-stromquist/pro...