5 ms·

Targeting poverty/income as oppose to race seems like such a no brainer to me. It still solves the same problem, except that it wouldn’t ever discriminate and i

by s1k3 4y ago

Targeting poverty/income as oppose to race seems like such a no brainer to me. It still solves the same problem, except that it wouldn’t ever discriminate and if there was equal equity in poverty you’d expect equal equity in targeting it.

trident5000 4y ago
You know theres a shit ton of poor white people right? Its like people dont know that or something.
- annexrichmond 4y ago
  The DEI org at my company sent a mail out a few months ago saying how much the wage gap was between blacks and whites are, which is funny given that now Asian women have average higher wage than white men
  - trident5000 4y ago
    The average wage gap is driven by billionaires. Poor blacks and whites are all....poor. And theres no need to measure the tallest midget even if theres a slight difference after you net out the .1% who drag up the averages for whites.
    - smugma 4y ago
      That’s not how medians work
      - trident5000 4y ago
        Im well aware of how medians work (1 type of average). The gaps are often calculated by the mean.
- the_lonely_road 4y ago
  Specifically a lot more poor white people than spots available in these schools. Asians are a “problem” taking up too many spots and are doing this from a position of only being 6% of the United States. Whites make up 57% of the United States. This means you can easily fill these schools 100% with white students if you use only income as the proxy. I personally believe the only fair course of action is admission by merit and then attack anyone racial disparities seem in each years admission at a different place in the pipeline.
sokoloff 4y ago
I see some practical challenges in that for university admissions. What measures of poverty and income would you use and of whom? The high schoolers themselves will all look similar (as could be arranged at least). Many could arrange their income to look how would be most advantageous in a specific admissions year. What’s wrong with using measures of merit of the applicant? GPA, standardized tests, application including essays, letters of recommendation, etc. The desire to find ways to improve upon direct measures and the hubris to believe placing these thumbs on the scales will make things globally better is somewhere between puzzling and mystifying to me.
- Retric 4y ago
  The issue with using measurement X is that it quickly gets gamed. Having a freshman class filled with people who’s parents wanted their kids to get into a good school isn’t the goal. Standardized tests for example are surprisingly gamble especially when you consider things like bribery. Elite collages for example want their student body to look a specific way. One slice for ultra wealthy, one slice for foreigners, another slice for XYZ.
  - scarmig 4y ago
    Low income and (to an extent) wealth are also gameable. Especially if you're well off and privileged.
  - foogazi 4y ago
    > Having a freshman class filled with people who’s parents wanted their kids to get into a good school isn’t the goal. Interesting - what is the goal according to you ?
  - pwpw 4y ago
    > The issue with using measurement X is that it quickly gets gamed. Goodhart’s Law[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
- bradleyjg 4y ago
  What exactly is meritorious (adjective: deserving reward or praise) about any of that?
lelandfe 4y ago
It's important to note that universities have been throwing money at using these proxies but still fall far short. California's constitution banned affirmative action in the 90s and huge, well-endowed facilities like Berkeley have been unable to remedy their plummeting minority enrollment: https://news.berkeley.edu/story_jump/end-of-affirmative-action-at-uc-hurt-black-latinx-students-study-finds/ https://news.berkeley.edu/story_jump/end-of-affirmative-acti... Having spoken to some folks at (admittedly smaller) universities that work with such problems, substitute methods like income and zipcode are simply not as effective – not by a long shot.
- jacobolus 4y ago
  Using something like census block as a proxy for social class also can be gamed. I live in San Francisco where there is a confusing and frustrating school lottery that gives preference based on neighborhood of residence in an effort to help lower income families. Some wealthy friends we met at the playground moved to a (snazzy new) condo at the corner of a low-income census block for a year or two so they could get their kid an advantage in the SF kindergarten lottery, successfully getting them into their first-choice school on the other side of town. Then after the kid was enrolled for a few months, they moved to the (higher-income) neighborhood where the school is located. Being nominally in a census block with slightly higher school lottery priority is a well-understood perk of some of these fancy new condo buildings, and may even drive some amount of gentrification. (That doesn’t necessarily mean that advantaging people from lower income neighborhoods in school choice isn’t helpful, but it’s pretty hard to set up systems that actually measure what they’re intending to measure.)
crackercrews 4y ago
It sure seems like a no brainer. The fact that colleges don't use it tells me that it wouldn't "solve the same problem" otherwise they would do it. They know the details and can see how it would work out. I'd guess it would help lots of low-income Asian students. There are so many of them with pretty good test scores and grades. They might end up swamping the affirmative action beneficiaries under a socioeconomic program. That would be good for some types of equity but it wouldn't "solve the same problem" as affirmative action.

by s1k3 4y ago

trident5000 4y ago

You know theres a shit ton of poor white people right? Its like people dont know that or something.

annexrichmond 4y ago
The DEI org at my company sent a mail out a few months ago saying how much the wage gap was between blacks and whites are, which is funny given that now Asian women have average higher wage than white men
- trident5000 4y ago
  The average wage gap is driven by billionaires. Poor blacks and whites are all....poor. And theres no need to measure the tallest midget even if theres a slight difference after you net out the .1% who drag up the averages for whites.
  - smugma 4y ago
    That’s not how medians work
    - trident5000 4y ago
      Im well aware of how medians work (1 type of average). The gaps are often calculated by the mean.
the_lonely_road 4y ago
Specifically a lot more poor white people than spots available in these schools. Asians are a “problem” taking up too many spots and are doing this from a position of only being 6% of the United States. Whites make up 57% of the United States. This means you can easily fill these schools 100% with white students if you use only income as the proxy. I personally believe the only fair course of action is admission by merit and then attack anyone racial disparities seem in each years admission at a different place in the pipeline.

sokoloff 4y ago

I see some practical challenges in that for university admissions. What measures of poverty and income would you use and of whom? The high schoolers themselves will all look similar (as could be arranged at least). Many could arrange their income to look how would be most advantageous in a specific admissions year. What’s wrong with using measures of merit of the applicant? GPA, standardized tests, application including essays, letters of recommendation, etc. The desire to find ways to improve upon direct measures and the hubris to believe placing these thumbs on the scales will make things globally better is somewhere between puzzling and mystifying to me.

Retric 4y ago
The issue with using measurement X is that it quickly gets gamed. Having a freshman class filled with people who’s parents wanted their kids to get into a good school isn’t the goal. Standardized tests for example are surprisingly gamble especially when you consider things like bribery. Elite collages for example want their student body to look a specific way. One slice for ultra wealthy, one slice for foreigners, another slice for XYZ.
- scarmig 4y ago
  Low income and (to an extent) wealth are also gameable. Especially if you're well off and privileged.
- foogazi 4y ago
  > Having a freshman class filled with people who’s parents wanted their kids to get into a good school isn’t the goal. Interesting - what is the goal according to you ?
- pwpw 4y ago
  > The issue with using measurement X is that it quickly gets gamed. Goodhart’s Law[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
bradleyjg 4y ago
What exactly is meritorious (adjective: deserving reward or praise) about any of that?

lelandfe 4y ago

It's important to note that universities have been throwing money at using these proxies but still fall far short. California's constitution banned affirmative action in the 90s and huge, well-endowed facilities like Berkeley have been unable to remedy their plummeting minority enrollment: https://news.berkeley.edu/story_jump/end-of-affirmative-action-at-uc-hurt-black-latinx-students-study-finds/ https://news.berkeley.edu/story_jump/end-of-affirmative-acti... Having spoken to some folks at (admittedly smaller) universities that work with such problems, substitute methods like income and zipcode are simply not as effective – not by a long shot.

jacobolus 4y ago
Using something like census block as a proxy for social class also can be gamed. I live in San Francisco where there is a confusing and frustrating school lottery that gives preference based on neighborhood of residence in an effort to help lower income families. Some wealthy friends we met at the playground moved to a (snazzy new) condo at the corner of a low-income census block for a year or two so they could get their kid an advantage in the SF kindergarten lottery, successfully getting them into their first-choice school on the other side of town. Then after the kid was enrolled for a few months, they moved to the (higher-income) neighborhood where the school is located. Being nominally in a census block with slightly higher school lottery priority is a well-understood perk of some of these fancy new condo buildings, and may even drive some amount of gentrification. (That doesn’t necessarily mean that advantaging people from lower income neighborhoods in school choice isn’t helpful, but it’s pretty hard to set up systems that actually measure what they’re intending to measure.)

crackercrews 4y ago

It sure seems like a no brainer. The fact that colleges don't use it tells me that it wouldn't "solve the same problem" otherwise they would do it. They know the details and can see how it would work out. I'd guess it would help lots of low-income Asian students. There are so many of them with pretty good test scores and grades. They might end up swamping the affirmative action beneficiaries under a socioeconomic program. That would be good for some types of equity but it wouldn't "solve the same problem" as affirmative action.