8 ms·

It's interesting to see some people are making it work living off these types of projects. > I created a Patreon back in April of 2019. I felt a bit silly at t

It's interesting to see some people are making it work living off these types of projects. > I created a Patreon back in April of 2019. I felt a bit silly at the time, with thoughts like “who do I think I am” and “what am I even doing” echoing in my head. I still did it though. I was too curious to see what would happen, even though I expected nothing. Amazingly, a couple of people actually signed up! I'm definitely relating to this experience. Feels hella pretentious and weird to set up donations. Was likewise surprised to actually get people sending me money. I guess the moral of the story is if you build cool things, people are willing to chip in.

IncRnd 4y ago
> Feels hella pretentious and weird to set up donations. I'm not sure of your location, but in the US these are not donations but income on which taxes need to be paid.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  Yeah they're not de jure donations, but de facto.
- treffer 4y ago
  Germany, IANAL but was curious because I've seen it differently here: "donations" that are clearly not tax deductible, the only real test for that wird in some sense. Lawyer Google tells me donations are just money gifts. Some organizations that are approved can hand you a recipe that allows you to tax deduct it. And I think those organizations also don't need to pay taxes on it. TIL. Not sure how well that resonates in Sweden though.
  - mysterydip 4y ago
    In the US a 501(c)(3) organization is considered "non-profit" and gifts to them are tax-deductible. I worked at one once and we had a paper we used at stores to pay no sales tax.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
      You are correct on both points, but you're drawing a connection where one doesn't necessarily exist. When you donate to 501(c)(3) corporation, you can deduct the donation against your taxes and the organization does not have to pay taxes on your gift. The paper you show the store is either a "tax exempt" certificate or a reseller certificate. In the case of your non-profit, it's probably a tax-exempt certificate, but other types of businesses can avoid paying sales taxes on items they purchase if they are for resale. I know this may seem overly pedantic, but taxes are an area where there is a lot of misinformation online, so I'm trying to help reduce any confusion the post may have cuased.
      - mysterydip 4y ago
        Correct, it was a tax exempt certificate. I wasn't trying to say they were related, but I can see how that would have been implied from the text. Thanks for the clarification!
- Aeolun 4y ago
  You can set your “company” up as a nonprofit, then they’re donations?
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Yes, but then what you pay yourself out of the organization is taxable income.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    Yes, if the IRS agrees that what your company does fits its criteria then they will certify you as a non-profit.
- Etheryte 4y ago
  I think you might be reading the sentence the wrong way round, to me it sounds like the author talks about others making donations, not him receiving them.
  - IncRnd 4y ago
    I think you missed some of his comment. He wrote, "Was likewise surprised to actually get people sending me money." That is him discussing his receipt of monies.
- Archelaos 4y ago
  Merriam-Webster: Definition of donation : the act or an instance of donating: such as a : the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution b : a free contribution : gift [1] Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/donation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/donation
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  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    Pay the tax man Source: IRS
reincoder 4y ago
> I guess the moral of the story is if you build cool things, people are willing to chip in. I wouldn't agree with the statement entirely. There are people who were building cools things, but getting support has been hard for many of them. Specially in the early 2000s, open source felt like a very personal battle to build cool stuff, where people with sheer will and luck survived. Now, OSS developers like Andreas thrive and grow because of community support. In the last few years, Open Source went through a cultural shift that enabled people to ask for support openly. You know the human behind the work, not an organization. You have Andrew Kelly of Zig, Evan You of Vue and many more who are not organizations but individuals making contributions. It is a radical change. We have also seen a radical change in sentiment that all developers are bounded by some moral internal code to support OSS projects, whether it be through code, answering Stack Overflow questions or through donations. Another aspect is that, code streaming and creating community chatroom has enabled many developers to share their ideas openly and create microcosms of spaces where communities can form. These communities are sources of support in the form of development, spiritual support and income. It is not entirely about cool things anymore. It is more than that. We probably are living in the golden age of Open Source development.
- luckylion 4y ago
  What you mentioned about community got me thinking how closely related it is to regular "content creators" that create content for a community (e.g. on Twitch or Youtube) and get financial support from that community. In other words: would we be seeing a similar level of donations for makers and hackers if the gaming/just chatting streamers hadn't paved the way?
- em-bee 4y ago
  that is a very interesting perspective. i hadn't thought about that before. but you are right that in the last few years a greater attention has been given to the need to support developers who are working on critical infrastructure, and while SerenityOS may not be critical to the majority of FOSS users in general, it certainly is important to its own users.
Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
I've been wondering for a while if these successful developers who use Patreon had hosted their own payment page with Stripe would they have received same success? Does 'Support me on Patreon' add more legibility than 'Support me on my x website' to a potential donor? Because, Its trivial for a developer to integrate Stripe or any other PG on their website & they can stop paying double commissions on Patreon; Besides no vendor lock-in, censorship or payment delays.
- spijdar 4y ago
  I'm not super familiar with the pros/cons of all the options, but the 10,000 foot view AFAIK is that Patreon has a big advantage for people who want to give small monthly amounts to many people, as they can minimize the number of individual transactions, increasing efficiency (even after they take their cut). If you only support one or two people or you give larger monthly amounts, having Stripe or whatever set-up would be better - I think it's more about creating an atmosphere where it's encouraged to give relatively small fiscal amounts (a couple dollars a month) to many people.
  - Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
    You make a good point, Someone who donates to you regularly likely does so for few others and a single payment system for them could be useful; Even though the heavy lifting is done by Stripe for this case too.
rpastuszak 4y ago
This reminds me of Amanda Palmer’s The Art of Asking. I think some of her experiences might resonate with you. Check it out if you haven’t!
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  I'm not sure I'd take advice from someone who has time and again shown themselves to be an utterly toxic human being.
  - CamelRocketFish 4y ago
    How so?
    - IshKebab 4y ago
      I got curious (no idea who she is) but this article has some details: https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer-visionary-egotist-interview https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer-... Basically seems like a kind of annoying attention seeker. I wouldn't say toxic though.
      - helmholtz 4y ago
        > https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer- https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer-... So, she seems quite alright then. A bit egotistical, perhaps not the wisest with the 1.2M USD, a bit 'arty', but nothing toxic indeed.
        6stringmerc 4y ago
        A rich person offering to pay you in hugs for your artistic performance skills is disgusting on a base level. It just is, and that’s her best claim to fame.
  - rpastuszak 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you're talking about, but the advice itself seems useful, regardless of the messenger. There's nothing inherently toxic about it. I met her a few years ago and she seemed like a friendly, kind person. And, that didn't make me agree with the content of the video more.

IncRnd 4y ago

> Feels hella pretentious and weird to set up donations. I'm not sure of your location, but in the US these are not donations but income on which taxes need to be paid.

marginalia_nu 4y ago
Yeah they're not de jure donations, but de facto.
treffer 4y ago
Germany, IANAL but was curious because I've seen it differently here: "donations" that are clearly not tax deductible, the only real test for that wird in some sense. Lawyer Google tells me donations are just money gifts. Some organizations that are approved can hand you a recipe that allows you to tax deduct it. And I think those organizations also don't need to pay taxes on it. TIL. Not sure how well that resonates in Sweden though.
- mysterydip 4y ago
  In the US a 501(c)(3) organization is considered "non-profit" and gifts to them are tax-deductible. I worked at one once and we had a paper we used at stores to pay no sales tax.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    You are correct on both points, but you're drawing a connection where one doesn't necessarily exist. When you donate to 501(c)(3) corporation, you can deduct the donation against your taxes and the organization does not have to pay taxes on your gift. The paper you show the store is either a "tax exempt" certificate or a reseller certificate. In the case of your non-profit, it's probably a tax-exempt certificate, but other types of businesses can avoid paying sales taxes on items they purchase if they are for resale. I know this may seem overly pedantic, but taxes are an area where there is a lot of misinformation online, so I'm trying to help reduce any confusion the post may have cuased.
    - mysterydip 4y ago
      Correct, it was a tax exempt certificate. I wasn't trying to say they were related, but I can see how that would have been implied from the text. Thanks for the clarification!
Aeolun 4y ago
You can set your “company” up as a nonprofit, then they’re donations?
- jjeaff 4y ago
  Yes, but then what you pay yourself out of the organization is taxable income.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Yes, if the IRS agrees that what your company does fits its criteria then they will certify you as a non-profit.
Etheryte 4y ago
I think you might be reading the sentence the wrong way round, to me it sounds like the author talks about others making donations, not him receiving them.
- IncRnd 4y ago
  I think you missed some of his comment. He wrote, "Was likewise surprised to actually get people sending me money." That is him discussing his receipt of monies.
Archelaos 4y ago
Merriam-Webster: Definition of donation : the act or an instance of donating: such as a : the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution b : a free contribution : gift [1] Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/donation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/donation
- deleted 4y ago
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- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Pay the tax man Source: IRS

reincoder 4y ago

> I guess the moral of the story is if you build cool things, people are willing to chip in. I wouldn't agree with the statement entirely. There are people who were building cools things, but getting support has been hard for many of them. Specially in the early 2000s, open source felt like a very personal battle to build cool stuff, where people with sheer will and luck survived. Now, OSS developers like Andreas thrive and grow because of community support. In the last few years, Open Source went through a cultural shift that enabled people to ask for support openly. You know the human behind the work, not an organization. You have Andrew Kelly of Zig, Evan You of Vue and many more who are not organizations but individuals making contributions. It is a radical change. We have also seen a radical change in sentiment that all developers are bounded by some moral internal code to support OSS projects, whether it be through code, answering Stack Overflow questions or through donations. Another aspect is that, code streaming and creating community chatroom has enabled many developers to share their ideas openly and create microcosms of spaces where communities can form. These communities are sources of support in the form of development, spiritual support and income. It is not entirely about cool things anymore. It is more than that. We probably are living in the golden age of Open Source development.

luckylion 4y ago
What you mentioned about community got me thinking how closely related it is to regular "content creators" that create content for a community (e.g. on Twitch or Youtube) and get financial support from that community. In other words: would we be seeing a similar level of donations for makers and hackers if the gaming/just chatting streamers hadn't paved the way?
em-bee 4y ago
that is a very interesting perspective. i hadn't thought about that before. but you are right that in the last few years a greater attention has been given to the need to support developers who are working on critical infrastructure, and while SerenityOS may not be critical to the majority of FOSS users in general, it certainly is important to its own users.

Abishek_Muthian 4y ago

I've been wondering for a while if these successful developers who use Patreon had hosted their own payment page with Stripe would they have received same success? Does 'Support me on Patreon' add more legibility than 'Support me on my x website' to a potential donor? Because, Its trivial for a developer to integrate Stripe or any other PG on their website & they can stop paying double commissions on Patreon; Besides no vendor lock-in, censorship or payment delays.

spijdar 4y ago
I'm not super familiar with the pros/cons of all the options, but the 10,000 foot view AFAIK is that Patreon has a big advantage for people who want to give small monthly amounts to many people, as they can minimize the number of individual transactions, increasing efficiency (even after they take their cut). If you only support one or two people or you give larger monthly amounts, having Stripe or whatever set-up would be better - I think it's more about creating an atmosphere where it's encouraged to give relatively small fiscal amounts (a couple dollars a month) to many people.
- Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
  You make a good point, Someone who donates to you regularly likely does so for few others and a single payment system for them could be useful; Even though the heavy lifting is done by Stripe for this case too.

rpastuszak 4y ago

This reminds me of Amanda Palmer’s The Art of Asking. I think some of her experiences might resonate with you. Check it out if you haven’t!

sirsinsalot 4y ago
I'm not sure I'd take advice from someone who has time and again shown themselves to be an utterly toxic human being.
- CamelRocketFish 4y ago
  How so?
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    I got curious (no idea who she is) but this article has some details: https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer-visionary-egotist-interview https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer-... Basically seems like a kind of annoying attention seeker. I wouldn't say toxic though.
    - helmholtz 4y ago
      > https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer- https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/22/amanda-palmer-... So, she seems quite alright then. A bit egotistical, perhaps not the wisest with the 1.2M USD, a bit 'arty', but nothing toxic indeed.
      - 6stringmerc 4y ago
        A rich person offering to pay you in hugs for your artistic performance skills is disgusting on a base level. It just is, and that’s her best claim to fame.
- rpastuszak 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you're talking about, but the advice itself seems useful, regardless of the messenger. There's nothing inherently toxic about it. I met her a few years ago and she seemed like a friendly, kind person. And, that didn't make me agree with the content of the video more.