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> lobbying'. That is, the free, democratic, and fully legal, bribery of government legislators and elected officials by profit-driven corporate bodies. That’s

> lobbying'. That is, the free, democratic, and fully legal, bribery of government legislators and elected officials by profit-driven corporate bodies. That’s not really the definition of lobbying though. We should try to avoid hyperboles. Additionally, bribery is not legal and that’s not even remotely the form that the vast majority of lobbying takes today.

sonofhans 4y ago
Of course it’s bribery. Everyone involved knows it’s bribery. The money is given with expectation of reward. If the bribing entity didn’t expect a direct reward, they wouldn’t give the money. Now, everyone tries to hide behind levels of abstraction — “It’s just lobbying!” — but those are just fig leaves and reasonable people should see through them. E.g., “Exxon gave the money to my campaign committee, and I’m not involved with the finance end; my vote in favor of Exxon was just a coincidence.” That’s pure bullshit and everyone knows it. So yes it’s bribery. Calling it something else is disingenuous.
- Nanana909 4y ago
  > The money is given with expectation of reward. If the bribing entity didn’t expect a direct reward, they wouldn’t give the money. Let’s say a lobbyist for a nonprofit cancer research group has dinner with a representative and discusses reasons for (lobbies) him to vote for increased cancer research at this dinner. Is this bribery? Because it is lobbying. But under your definition of lobbying and bribing being equivalent terms, they are the same! And to call such an action bribery isn’t really making your case - it’s just nuking the utility of both of the words. This is a problem with modern political discourse - all rhetoric is flattened. No - lobbying is lobbying. Bribing is bribing.
  - groffee 4y ago
    Of course it's still bribery. The definition doesn't change just because you happen to agree with what they're getting bribed for.
    - Nanana909 4y ago
      Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Your representative has a town hall and afterwards you get a few minutes to speak with him. You argue that the number of stop signs in your neighborhood isn’t enough and causes danger. In other words, you lobby him to pursue increased stop signs in your area. He hears you out, you guys shake hands, and leave. As you have now engaged in lobbying, have you engaged in bribery? Clearly not. The two words are not synonyms.
      - partyboob 4y ago
        I think the problem is that the behaviour that is called "lobbying" is better described as "bribery" when you look at the mechanics of what is actually happening. The words of course mean different things, but what is happening in the US is actually bribery.
        hulitu 4y ago
        Not only in the US.
      - johnchristopher 4y ago
        > Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Who's footing the bill ?
      - Test0129 4y ago
        I think you are trying to make a point where none needs to be made. Lobbying has, for a very long time, been another term for bribery. Even as recently as the COVID crisis. Why do you think Pfizer got all that juicy government money? Go look at open secrets and see who they paid. If you want a real shocker, look at their top donors and then look at their voting record. Look at all the politicians that end up at Pfizer, Exxon, Northrop, Google, etc. Look at all the executives for those companies that, as if by some miracle, end up running MAJOR parts of our government. You are correct in the literal sense lobbying was supposed to be about the everyman talking to their representative and convincing them to do right by them. However, now, the everyman has no voice. If you don't donate $X millions you won't even the time of day from most congressmen. It's corruption at it's core and an affront to democracy. It's disguised as "lobbying" because Citizens United allowed it to be. That's all.
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    Cancer Inc. is your example of harmless influence ?!? you embarrass yourself here, perhaps unwittingly. Source: US citizen
    - seanf 4y ago
      Can you provide a better source? I know about the waste in large nonprofits, but am also personally benefiting from grant-supported research that if it otherwise didn't happen would leave me and a lot of others dead.
      - mistrial9 4y ago
        yikes! your healthcare is more important than the politics of funding; let's be very clear that my comment is about overall funding, not specific people and cases. Good wishes to you and yours
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    It is still bribery. We don't really see it, though, because it's politically popular enough to direct support to cancer research so that lobbying is hardly necessary.
    - jwarden 4y ago
      Dinner is bribery? I can see how it would be bribery if the cancer researcher made a campaign donation after dinner, or left a suitcase of cash under the table, or even paid for dinner, but simply having dinner is not bribery. I agree that conflating these terms leads to less productive conversations.
      - serf 4y ago
        >Dinner is bribery? it very well could be. I know plenty of people that could be persuaded to do things by the mere chance to meet someone that they adore. 'Dinner' is often just code for "let me introduce you to X business associate", which has definite real-world persuasive power for people that need to make those connections. It would be unsurprising for an oil-tycoon to try to purchase a plate at a dinner with lots of oil-state-politicians. This isn't for the sake of good company, it's to further business interests.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        If we had proper standards of course it would be bribery. Offering anything with economic value should be considered such. Dinner, cup of coffee, campaign donation, lucrative position after stay in office, drugs, money, gold. All should be treated exactly same and result in extremely lengthy sentences in prison.
      - gaganyaan 4y ago
        Yes, dinner is very much bribery if the bribee doesn't pay for it. Even though I skip past those annoying HR trainings as much as possible, I still gathered that much from them.
      - 4y ago
  - MobiusHorizons 4y ago
    Bribery is a very strong word, but I think we can all agree that lobbying gives undue influence. Using money to increase one’s influence corrupts the representative in a representative democracy. I can certainly see why people would chose to call that bribery.
  - darth_avocado 4y ago
    In my basic corporate training, we are told spending any more money than non trivial swag on people in the government is strictly prohibited because it can be considered bribery. So, I’m pretty sure the definition of bribery is very flexible.
    - CoastalCoder 4y ago
      That training is given to general employees, not to the lobbying firms that the company hires.
      - refurb 4y ago
        You realize that lobbyists have to be registered and have laws around appropriate behavior? I’ve been involved in lobbying efforts before as an employee of a firm. It’s not bribery. The company pays a lobbying firm to strategize around an issue, put together talking points or a white paper and leverage their network (as registered lobbyists) to argue their point with various politicians. There is no money transfer happening. The EU has a very healthy lobbying process as well. Campaign donations are a different matter, but I can donate up to $5000 to any member of Congress as a citizen and likely get time with them. Am I “bribing” when I do that? I mean lobbyists can break those laws, but you can break any law.
        CoastalCoder 4y ago
        Apologies, I wasn't drawing enough of a distinction between lobbying, legalized campaign contributions by corporations, and other forms of influence peddling.
  - serf 4y ago
    >Lets say a lobbyist for a nonprofit cancer research group has dinner with a representative and lobbies him to vote for increased cancer research at this dinner. Is this bribery? most people would tend to agree that if it required something it was at the very least an exchange, perhaps a bribe. one could ask why the request for support couldn't be done over the phone; the answer is "because of the dinner." -- well, then, isn't the dinner being exchanged for the support? what is the value of the dinner? Does the value represent a monetary amount that would throw red flags up regarding the dinner being an exchange of value rather than a living expense? Does this exchange of value represent a bribe? It's not as cut and dry as "A is lobbying and B is bribing.", that's why most political corruption scandals are generally handled by committees of people that try to go through the events to extract meaning from them.
    - supportlocal4h 4y ago
      The dinner is not necessarily buying support. It is buying access. The lobbyist can drown out my voice because I don't get the same access to my supposed representative. Welcome to a republic. Do you have an idea to improve on this? Perhaps there could be 100 designated dinners per rep per year and up to four competing voices could be at the table. We could vote for the candidate who has a 100 dinner topics list that we like the best.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Generally agree. However, you're only describing the way it should work. The other, more problematic, part is when these groups give large contributions to candidates campaign, or even their "charity".
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Because of changes in the law, during that dinner the lobbyist will causally mention their client sent $500k to the “Citizens for Some Bullshit the Congressman Cares About”
  - scotty79 4y ago
    If he's buying dinner it's bribery. In other coutries giving money (or things that cost money) to politicians is just called corruption.
- everybodyknows 4y ago
  Transferring campaign donations to personal use is a felony, precisely because it does amount to bribery as enabled by money laundering. Recent case, ending in prison conviction: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/former-congressman-duncan-d-hunter-sentenced-11-months-prison-stealing-campaign-funds https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/former-congressman-dunc...
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Everybody knows you've got to launder it by having the campaign by services from a company you control. Besides, you can just bribe the people on the FEC (or rely on party loyalty) to not investigate. https://www.salon.com/2022/05/17/fec-block-action-on-alleged-money-laundering-scheme-despite-fining-hillary/ https://www.salon.com/2022/05/17/fec-block-action-on-alleged...
  - diffxx 4y ago
    According to the supreme court (https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/politics/supreme-court-campaign-funds-ted-cruz/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/politics/supreme-court-campai...), it is legal to make personal donations to your campaign and then have the campaign pay you back with post election fundraising. What is to stop a candidate from colluding with a bank? Let's say a banker offers the candidate a 1MM loan with 0.5% apr. The candidate receives that money and makes a 1MM loan to their campaign at 10% apr. Now the candidate potentially has a ~100K/year annual revenue stream coming from the repayment of their loan. All they need to do is rile up their supporters about whatever hot button issue is most salient with their constituents to keep the post election donations coming in. This is particularly scary when it comes to house elections since given the short terms, house members are pretty much always in election fundraising mode. Now, perhaps the scheme I just outlined is a bit too obvious, but I certainly don't doubt that far more sophisticated money laundering schemes that leverage the recent supreme court decision are happening now and will happen in the future.
- rascul 4y ago
  I don't think lobbying implies bribery. If you go and speak to your representative for a few minutes to try and convince them to support your position, isn't that lobbying? Even if no money changed hands, just words?
  - deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
    > If you go and speak to your representative for a few minutes to try and convince them to support your position Give it a try. Let me know how it goes. If you don’t have a campaign donation lined up, you’re not getting in the door.
    - rascul 4y ago
      I think it depends. I have little hope of speaking to one of my national representatives. At the state level, I can get to some of my representatives easily enough. Edit: Without money, I mean.
    - celtain 4y ago
      I've talked to one of my senators, three of my congressman, and my mom's congresswoman. I'm not that rich and I certainly don't make political donations large enough for them to notice. Your cynicism might be warranted in certain states/districts, but my representatives have been reasonably responsive to this fairly average constituent.
      - deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
        I’m honestly surprised. I have contacted my federal representatives asking for the opportunity to change their minds on issues many times in the last few years, and have never broken through the wall of automated responses. Although at the local level, it is not hard to find a willing ear. Sometimes I sincerely wonder if it is due in part to a lack of autonomy from the national parties. I think there is limited wiggle room to oppose the party line, except in cases where a lot of money is brought in, or a particular issue strongly jeopardizes the party’s control over an area.
- userabchn 4y ago
  They are supporting the election campaigns of those whose viewpoints they like because they want to increase the chance that they will be elected. It's the same as regular people making campaign donations to the candidates they like.
- nearbuy 4y ago
  People are conflating lobbying with political donations. Lobbying is talking to politicians to attempt to convince them of something. Lobbyists aren't allowed to give money or gifts to a politician beyond some small limit (exact rules vary by state). For example, in California, a lobbyist can pay up to $10 of the politician's meal and the politician has to pay the rest. A company can both make political donations and hire lobbyists. But when you see that X company spent $2 million on lobbying, that's not money going to a politician or their campaign. You need to look at the political donations.
slowmovintarget 4y ago
Lobbying is not supposed to be bribery. It was supposed to be a a legally protected avenue for the governed to communicate with their representatives in government. It has become a channel for corruption, though. The solution, which may be entirely impossible, is to select better representatives. But requires being a better people in the first place.
rgrieselhuber 4y ago
This is gaslighting at its finest.
pjc50 4y ago
The phrase that should have been used is "campaign contributions" and "PAC contributions". All corporate PACs are purchasers of influence. It's especially obvious when the same company funds both sides.
electrondood 4y ago
I give you money and legislation. You push that legislation through. When you retire, we hire you with a fat salary for doing little. Yeah, it's bribery.

sonofhans 4y ago

Of course it’s bribery. Everyone involved knows it’s bribery. The money is given with expectation of reward. If the bribing entity didn’t expect a direct reward, they wouldn’t give the money. Now, everyone tries to hide behind levels of abstraction — “It’s just lobbying!” — but those are just fig leaves and reasonable people should see through them. E.g., “Exxon gave the money to my campaign committee, and I’m not involved with the finance end; my vote in favor of Exxon was just a coincidence.” That’s pure bullshit and everyone knows it. So yes it’s bribery. Calling it something else is disingenuous.

Nanana909 4y ago
> The money is given with expectation of reward. If the bribing entity didn’t expect a direct reward, they wouldn’t give the money. Let’s say a lobbyist for a nonprofit cancer research group has dinner with a representative and discusses reasons for (lobbies) him to vote for increased cancer research at this dinner. Is this bribery? Because it is lobbying. But under your definition of lobbying and bribing being equivalent terms, they are the same! And to call such an action bribery isn’t really making your case - it’s just nuking the utility of both of the words. This is a problem with modern political discourse - all rhetoric is flattened. No - lobbying is lobbying. Bribing is bribing.
- groffee 4y ago
  Of course it's still bribery. The definition doesn't change just because you happen to agree with what they're getting bribed for.
  - Nanana909 4y ago
    Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Your representative has a town hall and afterwards you get a few minutes to speak with him. You argue that the number of stop signs in your neighborhood isn’t enough and causes danger. In other words, you lobby him to pursue increased stop signs in your area. He hears you out, you guys shake hands, and leave. As you have now engaged in lobbying, have you engaged in bribery? Clearly not. The two words are not synonyms.
    - partyboob 4y ago
      I think the problem is that the behaviour that is called "lobbying" is better described as "bribery" when you look at the mechanics of what is actually happening. The words of course mean different things, but what is happening in the US is actually bribery.
      - hulitu 4y ago
        Not only in the US.
    - johnchristopher 4y ago
      > Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Who's footing the bill ?
    - Test0129 4y ago
      I think you are trying to make a point where none needs to be made. Lobbying has, for a very long time, been another term for bribery. Even as recently as the COVID crisis. Why do you think Pfizer got all that juicy government money? Go look at open secrets and see who they paid. If you want a real shocker, look at their top donors and then look at their voting record. Look at all the politicians that end up at Pfizer, Exxon, Northrop, Google, etc. Look at all the executives for those companies that, as if by some miracle, end up running MAJOR parts of our government. You are correct in the literal sense lobbying was supposed to be about the everyman talking to their representative and convincing them to do right by them. However, now, the everyman has no voice. If you don't donate $X millions you won't even the time of day from most congressmen. It's corruption at it's core and an affront to democracy. It's disguised as "lobbying" because Citizens United allowed it to be. That's all.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  Cancer Inc. is your example of harmless influence ?!? you embarrass yourself here, perhaps unwittingly. Source: US citizen
  - seanf 4y ago
    Can you provide a better source? I know about the waste in large nonprofits, but am also personally benefiting from grant-supported research that if it otherwise didn't happen would leave me and a lot of others dead.
    - mistrial9 4y ago
      yikes! your healthcare is more important than the politics of funding; let's be very clear that my comment is about overall funding, not specific people and cases. Good wishes to you and yours
- bastawhiz 4y ago
  It is still bribery. We don't really see it, though, because it's politically popular enough to direct support to cancer research so that lobbying is hardly necessary.
  - jwarden 4y ago
    Dinner is bribery? I can see how it would be bribery if the cancer researcher made a campaign donation after dinner, or left a suitcase of cash under the table, or even paid for dinner, but simply having dinner is not bribery. I agree that conflating these terms leads to less productive conversations.
    - serf 4y ago
      >Dinner is bribery? it very well could be. I know plenty of people that could be persuaded to do things by the mere chance to meet someone that they adore. 'Dinner' is often just code for "let me introduce you to X business associate", which has definite real-world persuasive power for people that need to make those connections. It would be unsurprising for an oil-tycoon to try to purchase a plate at a dinner with lots of oil-state-politicians. This isn't for the sake of good company, it's to further business interests.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      If we had proper standards of course it would be bribery. Offering anything with economic value should be considered such. Dinner, cup of coffee, campaign donation, lucrative position after stay in office, drugs, money, gold. All should be treated exactly same and result in extremely lengthy sentences in prison.
    - gaganyaan 4y ago
      Yes, dinner is very much bribery if the bribee doesn't pay for it. Even though I skip past those annoying HR trainings as much as possible, I still gathered that much from them.
    - 4y ago
- MobiusHorizons 4y ago
  Bribery is a very strong word, but I think we can all agree that lobbying gives undue influence. Using money to increase one’s influence corrupts the representative in a representative democracy. I can certainly see why people would chose to call that bribery.
- darth_avocado 4y ago
  In my basic corporate training, we are told spending any more money than non trivial swag on people in the government is strictly prohibited because it can be considered bribery. So, I’m pretty sure the definition of bribery is very flexible.
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    That training is given to general employees, not to the lobbying firms that the company hires.
    - refurb 4y ago
      You realize that lobbyists have to be registered and have laws around appropriate behavior? I’ve been involved in lobbying efforts before as an employee of a firm. It’s not bribery. The company pays a lobbying firm to strategize around an issue, put together talking points or a white paper and leverage their network (as registered lobbyists) to argue their point with various politicians. There is no money transfer happening. The EU has a very healthy lobbying process as well. Campaign donations are a different matter, but I can donate up to $5000 to any member of Congress as a citizen and likely get time with them. Am I “bribing” when I do that? I mean lobbyists can break those laws, but you can break any law.
      - CoastalCoder 4y ago
        Apologies, I wasn't drawing enough of a distinction between lobbying, legalized campaign contributions by corporations, and other forms of influence peddling.
- serf 4y ago
  >Lets say a lobbyist for a nonprofit cancer research group has dinner with a representative and lobbies him to vote for increased cancer research at this dinner. Is this bribery? most people would tend to agree that if it required something it was at the very least an exchange, perhaps a bribe. one could ask why the request for support couldn't be done over the phone; the answer is "because of the dinner." -- well, then, isn't the dinner being exchanged for the support? what is the value of the dinner? Does the value represent a monetary amount that would throw red flags up regarding the dinner being an exchange of value rather than a living expense? Does this exchange of value represent a bribe? It's not as cut and dry as "A is lobbying and B is bribing.", that's why most political corruption scandals are generally handled by committees of people that try to go through the events to extract meaning from them.
  - supportlocal4h 4y ago
    The dinner is not necessarily buying support. It is buying access. The lobbyist can drown out my voice because I don't get the same access to my supposed representative. Welcome to a republic. Do you have an idea to improve on this? Perhaps there could be 100 designated dinners per rep per year and up to four competing voices could be at the table. We could vote for the candidate who has a 100 dinner topics list that we like the best.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Generally agree. However, you're only describing the way it should work. The other, more problematic, part is when these groups give large contributions to candidates campaign, or even their "charity".
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Because of changes in the law, during that dinner the lobbyist will causally mention their client sent $500k to the “Citizens for Some Bullshit the Congressman Cares About”
- scotty79 4y ago
  If he's buying dinner it's bribery. In other coutries giving money (or things that cost money) to politicians is just called corruption.
everybodyknows 4y ago
Transferring campaign donations to personal use is a felony, precisely because it does amount to bribery as enabled by money laundering. Recent case, ending in prison conviction: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/former-congressman-duncan-d-hunter-sentenced-11-months-prison-stealing-campaign-funds https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/former-congressman-dunc...
- pjc50 4y ago
  Everybody knows you've got to launder it by having the campaign by services from a company you control. Besides, you can just bribe the people on the FEC (or rely on party loyalty) to not investigate. https://www.salon.com/2022/05/17/fec-block-action-on-alleged-money-laundering-scheme-despite-fining-hillary/ https://www.salon.com/2022/05/17/fec-block-action-on-alleged...
- diffxx 4y ago
  According to the supreme court (https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/politics/supreme-court-campaign-funds-ted-cruz/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/politics/supreme-court-campai...), it is legal to make personal donations to your campaign and then have the campaign pay you back with post election fundraising. What is to stop a candidate from colluding with a bank? Let's say a banker offers the candidate a 1MM loan with 0.5% apr. The candidate receives that money and makes a 1MM loan to their campaign at 10% apr. Now the candidate potentially has a ~100K/year annual revenue stream coming from the repayment of their loan. All they need to do is rile up their supporters about whatever hot button issue is most salient with their constituents to keep the post election donations coming in. This is particularly scary when it comes to house elections since given the short terms, house members are pretty much always in election fundraising mode. Now, perhaps the scheme I just outlined is a bit too obvious, but I certainly don't doubt that far more sophisticated money laundering schemes that leverage the recent supreme court decision are happening now and will happen in the future.
rascul 4y ago
I don't think lobbying implies bribery. If you go and speak to your representative for a few minutes to try and convince them to support your position, isn't that lobbying? Even if no money changed hands, just words?
- deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
  > If you go and speak to your representative for a few minutes to try and convince them to support your position Give it a try. Let me know how it goes. If you don’t have a campaign donation lined up, you’re not getting in the door.
  - rascul 4y ago
    I think it depends. I have little hope of speaking to one of my national representatives. At the state level, I can get to some of my representatives easily enough. Edit: Without money, I mean.
  - celtain 4y ago
    I've talked to one of my senators, three of my congressman, and my mom's congresswoman. I'm not that rich and I certainly don't make political donations large enough for them to notice. Your cynicism might be warranted in certain states/districts, but my representatives have been reasonably responsive to this fairly average constituent.
    - deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
      I’m honestly surprised. I have contacted my federal representatives asking for the opportunity to change their minds on issues many times in the last few years, and have never broken through the wall of automated responses. Although at the local level, it is not hard to find a willing ear. Sometimes I sincerely wonder if it is due in part to a lack of autonomy from the national parties. I think there is limited wiggle room to oppose the party line, except in cases where a lot of money is brought in, or a particular issue strongly jeopardizes the party’s control over an area.
userabchn 4y ago
They are supporting the election campaigns of those whose viewpoints they like because they want to increase the chance that they will be elected. It's the same as regular people making campaign donations to the candidates they like.
nearbuy 4y ago
People are conflating lobbying with political donations. Lobbying is talking to politicians to attempt to convince them of something. Lobbyists aren't allowed to give money or gifts to a politician beyond some small limit (exact rules vary by state). For example, in California, a lobbyist can pay up to $10 of the politician's meal and the politician has to pay the rest. A company can both make political donations and hire lobbyists. But when you see that X company spent $2 million on lobbying, that's not money going to a politician or their campaign. You need to look at the political donations.

slowmovintarget 4y ago

Lobbying is not supposed to be bribery. It was supposed to be a a legally protected avenue for the governed to communicate with their representatives in government. It has become a channel for corruption, though. The solution, which may be entirely impossible, is to select better representatives. But requires being a better people in the first place.

rgrieselhuber 4y ago

This is gaslighting at its finest.

pjc50 4y ago

The phrase that should have been used is "campaign contributions" and "PAC contributions". All corporate PACs are purchasers of influence. It's especially obvious when the same company funds both sides.

electrondood 4y ago

I give you money and legislation. You push that legislation through. When you retire, we hire you with a fat salary for doing little. Yeah, it's bribery.