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Teens turn to TikTok in search of a mental health diagnosis

londons_explore 4y ago
Half of them simply have tiktok addiction, and if they were to uninstall tiktok and go find some real friends instead of following semi-celebrities, the other mental health issues would probably subside too...
not_the_fda 4y ago
I have 15yo step-daughter and she has self-diagnosed herself through the whole DSM-IV because of TikTok. You have to walk a fine line between listened and supporting and calling BS. Spent thousands on a therapist to convince her otherwise.
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  Reading a diagnostic criteria doesn’t mean you have done a proper differential. You need to read far more than criteria that became obsolete in 2011 to establish disability.
candiodari 4y ago
Mental Health Diagnosis, even by longtime professionals, is notoriously unrealiable. Research keeps finding that it is determined more by the attitude, experience and values (ie. for example religious values) of the person doing the diagnosis. In practice, the number of clients/patients complaining that their diagnosis was changed something like 10 times, with an ever longer list of ever more serious problems, while treatments don't work, but DO interfere with life. And then there are mandatory treatments that keep being researched as worse than doing nothing. And, of course, there is the famous study of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment And it's more recent, less dramatic, but probably more valid cousin: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190708131152.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190708131152.h... Add to that that everyone feels capable of making such diagnoses themselves anyway. In every ended relationship these days, it seems, the relationship ended because the woman was schizophrenic and the man nacissist ... or vice versa. It used to be the case that if a person is "functional", which usually means able to hold down a job for at least a couple of months at a time, they were psychologically healthy. So why not make mental health diagnoses on tiktok, in bars, in ... everywhere? Yes it's not very valid, but everyone's doing it anyway ... and the official way to do it is not much more valid than doing things that way. This way, hopefully, people can see mental health diagnosis as what it really is: 99% bullshit.
- gsatic 4y ago
  Sure it can be unreliable cuz we are dealing with the brain which as a system is less understood than a cyclone. Its natural the pros will get things wrong cause of the complexity and dynamic nature of the issues, but don't kid yourself that your SO or family members or friends or work mates are going to do a better job. If they have never handled the issue before it's almost guaranteed they will create new issues and then cry about or hide behind their good intdntions after things blow up in their face.
  - candiodari 4y ago
    > Its natural the pros will get things wrong cause of the complexity and dynamic nature of the issues, but don't kid yourself that your SO or family members or friends or work mates are going to do a better job. I would expect "professionals" to do a better job. They don't. Otherwise ... one might point out Kenny Rogers is a professional: he's always been paid for his role (I doubt much acting was involved) in MTV's show "jackass". Being a "pro" means nothing, and certainly does not mean you beat amateurs. Plus, this is hacker news. In CS most amateurs, by virtue of actually liking what they do and putting in more effort, beat most professionals. Certainly on an individual level. > If they have never handled the issue before it's almost guaranteed they will create new issues and then cry about or hide behind their good intdntions after things blow up in their face. This is exactly the behaviour we keep seeing from professionals. Specifically, mental health has nothing remotely like the medical profession's responsibility, they do not accept the consequences of what they do, and they always hide behind their "good" intentions (scare quotes because: pros are by definition paid for their good intentions) Here's a story of situations mental health "professionals" created: https://elan.school/83-keyed-up https://elan.school/83-keyed-up The history of psychology and psychiatry is full of lies, deceit and, more than anything else: abuse. Mostly of underage girls. One might point out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Freudian_Coverup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Freudian_Coverup What was the best-selling product of dr. Sigmund Freud? I will point out his name is still revered by current psychologists. That product was: testifying in court how girls (and boys, though much less often) wanted to be raped, and thereby caused and carried guilt for being raped. In addition to this he silenced victims ... with violence. Not for free, of course. Also with drugs, therapy, making them doubt themselves, ... whatever he could. Current psychologists largely still do not see a problem with either his theories (they'll say they're "superseded") or his actions. One can only assume his status as the best earning psychologist ever has something to do with that. The brain is understood well enough to totally discredit 90% of psychology. It has just never been the intention of psychologists to be accurate. That's literally not what the science entails. They want to change the world for the better. Lying to accomplish that may be a grey zone, but it is quite well accepted this is part of how psychology works. It's like political science. Whether some claim is true or not is, at best, considered secondary to its effect on people. Perhaps not ideal, but let's say useful. For example, a claim that you will find well supported, but not in psychology is that abused people ... are very likely to abuse others. It's of course a controversial claim, but it's pretty well supported. Psychologists will not accept it. Now this, I guess, can be valid position, because if you want to change the world for the better, then perhaps not accepting this claim is the right thing to do. But none of that has any bearing on the truth of it.
werber 4y ago
I like that this article bookends with the young person finding that the real cause of their symptoms was isolation from their peers. Not that it’s always the case, but, I hope it’s a common cure that more people seek out first
- notacoward 4y ago
  > the real cause of their symptoms was isolation from their peers But who are their peers? Sometimes having a word for how you are can help you find other people you'll vibe with, even if it's technically a misdiagnosis. I've seen it both with neurodivergence and LGBTQ, with kids who arguably don't even fit the label but find and return great value in those communities anyway. I'm sure people here can appreciate how sometimes results matter more than adherence to inflexible rules laid down in some book.
  - werber 4y ago
    I completely agree, My mom has been concerned that my teenage step sister and her peers almost all identify as non binary, but it seems like they’ve built a happy high school experience around sharing that. Whether or not they identify as non binary for life seems inconsequential if it serves them now, but I’m kinda excited by the younger generation just being like nah to gender
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      > My mom has been concerned that my teenage step sister and her peers almost all identify as non binary No one is "binary". Even the voltage levels inside electronic circuits, that everyone calls binary, are not binary. What's up with this contemporary obsession for seeing everything in pure black-and-white terms and dismissing the power of the rare, mysterious and unknown liminal states of being, acknowledged since time immemorial by countless traditions?
      - jakear 4y ago
        The subject is born and told they are “gender A”, rather than the alternative: “gender B”. They observe that in the world around them (media, etc.), “gender A” implies X, Y, and Z traits, and “gender B” implies W, R, and T traits. The subject does not feel they exhibit exclusively X Y and Z traits nor exclusively W R and T traits, but rather some mixture of the two. The subject then has two options. Reject the worldview claiming A=>XYZ B=>WRT, in flavor of a more dynamic classification scheme; or introduce a new category, C, which maps to their experienced subset of XYZWRT. I’ve seen no evidence to support one approach being more valid than the other.
meowfly 4y ago
My experience has been a mental health diagnosis, even from a professional, has the terrible byproduct of reifying the symptoms of that condition. It's perfectly possible that the environment that manifests something like social phobia can change, and a person who previously felt uncomfortable doing something can feel again comfortable. However, if having social anxiety becomes part of your identity, it becomes the lense that you see the world. TikTok makes it easy, but social media as a whole is identity obsessed by its nature, and as the article illustrates is making this problem worse.
- djaychela 4y ago
  This has been my experience, both professionally (I used to teach children at a school which specialises in those who may have some form of diagnosis), and in my personal life with 4 step children, 3 of whom have ASD diagnoses. For the vast majority who I taught, the diagnosis became their identity, rather than a way to understand their behaviour. Any disagreement with them was answered with "that's because I'm X". I can only recall one who approached it as a way to identify and understand their behaviour and experience of the world, and as a way to deeper understanding.
  - bjornsing 4y ago
    So what is an identity if not “a way to understand their behaviour and experience of the world”? I think the problem the GP raises is inherent in the whole diagnosis concept, and that it’s generally a bad idea to label large parts of the personality spectrum as some kind of (incurable) illness.
    - ipython 4y ago
      Not the gp, but I think the difference lies in mindset. There’s the “victim” mindset where you know the diagnosis and it becomes a convenient scapegoat for your symptoms. “I can’t do that because I’m X.” You see yourself as unable to escape the diagnosis and enter a state of learned helplessness. The desired outcome is an enlightenment mindset. “Ah, so that’s why I act that way. Well now that I know that and have x, y and z methods for addressing it, I can overcome/adapt”. As you can imagine it’s a lot more work to achieve this mindset.
satysin 4y ago
I have seen this first hand with a (non-teenager) family member. They self-diagnosed with ADHD over the past two years. Then they paid to get a private assessment and sure enough got diagnosed with ADHD. Do I think they have ADHD? Nope, not at all. So why the official diagnosis and treatment with pharmaceuticals? He learnt everything he needed to know to easily fool the doctor assessing him. He knew every test they would use and exactly how to respond. And as he is an intelligent guy he didn't go in there and flag every single thing but just enough to look like a legitimate person struggling with attention and executive function. He told me before the assessment he wants the medication and he got exactly what he wanted. My son was diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago so I have seen first hand how the assessments work and it is a joke how much "flexibility" there is. It isn't like a blood or culture test where you can detect the presence or lack of some substance. It is mostly voodoo for want of a better word. One question I ask myself is does he genuinely think he has ADHD or did he just want the meds and figured out a way to get them while looking genuine?
- ethanbond 4y ago
  A third option is that he does have ADHD and you, a bystander, are doing the misdiagnosis. IMO for disorders like this it’s almost better to view it through the lens of the available treatments. Is the treatment, on net and relative to other possible strategies, going to be a positive impact on this person? If yes, then whether they have apparent Disorder X (a figment of imagination) versus actual Disorder X (which is itself also a figment of our collective imagination) isn’t super relevant. Obviously in the case of ADHD the prescription drugs are pretty intense and have pretty severe negative consequences, so this framework in that case would probably even yield that people with actual ADHD but mild forms shouldn’t have those drugs pushed on them either.
  - satysin 4y ago
    > A third option is that he does have ADHD and you, a bystander, are doing the misdiagnosis. Very possible. To me it is just very suspect given my near 30 years of knowing them and other events in their life not long before all of this started. They have never presented any ADHD traits until recently when suddenly they went from 0 to 100. From being a successful engineer to being unable to concentrate on a crossword. My personal opinion is they have untreated PTSD following a violent animal attack in early 2020 that caused life-long damage to their dominant hand. This in turn led to them suffering panic attacks around animals, anxiety due to the Covid lockdowns making treatment/physio complicated, furlough leading to isolation at home and being unable to do many of their hobbies from the physical injury (unable to play video games, the guitar, drums, etc) Tangentially related but they have a history of drug misuse and when I asked if they just wanted the medication their response was "Absolutely". I have mentioned seeking therapy as I suspected PTSD (I myself have C-PTSD from childhood abuse) but he made it clear he has no interest in therapy and just wants the medication which to me is not a great sign. Of course I could be wrong but I know him well and my worry is they will happily throw medication at him which will do nothing to help him deal with what I believe are the actual issues he is suffering from.
amelius 4y ago
Teens don't watch Dr. Phil anymore and this is the result.
richardjam73 4y ago
In the late 80s I noticed that I was mentally unwell. One day I went to library and they had some brochures on different forms of mental illnesses. I took one about schizophrenia and matched a symptom or two and assumed I was schizophrenic but I wasn't. I was young and had no guidance. It took over a year for me to realise that I wasn't schizophrenic. Labels can be useful if you actually understand what they mean but most people have no training to do so. It would be better if we focused on symptoms that negatively impact people's lives than illness labels.
- willnonya 4y ago
  What could go wrong with kids seeming mental health advice on tiktok... Nothing stupid ever comes out of there. Besides, kids today are just naturally smarter, just ask one and theyll tell you.
ivanhoe 4y ago
Back in the day it was much simpler - what ever symptoms you tried googling you'd inevitably end up with a self-diagnose of cancer every time.
cpsns 4y ago
I really think this phenomenon is due to just how hard a diagnosis is to get in many countries. Here in Canada you need a referral from a doctor (hard to get on its own), then you have to wait many months to years to see someone. Alternatively you can go private and spend quite literally thousands of dollars like I have. Teens may recognize something is wrong, but simply not have access to the systems they need. We don’t want people to self diagnosing, but we as a society don’t enable them to get the help they need, so they turn to social media.
dontbenebby 4y ago
Videos in general are really difficult to learn from, in my experience. I started learning infosec when bandwidth was scarce snd you'd avoid clicking video heavy links if for no other reason than the risk your computer would hang. You can watch a video, paired with written material, but in my experience the best way to learn is assigned readings and/or exercises, then circling back to discuss them with a subject matter expert if you truly don't understand how to perform the attack or math problem or whatever. I don't have a Tik Tok, but I've used enough social media to say I don't think I'd want my kids getting their mental health information from there. Now, if an existing institution uses Tik Tok or Facebook or Myspace or whatever to share their content, that's one thing, but the combination of "new network" with "new content creator" where neither side seems to care about the health of society as a whole... creates problems IMO. (Then again, the same assholes who used to wander around Scott Township every Halloween handing out fifty cent pieces to children still haven't threat modeled basic things like "if your plan for a cyberpunk future was to run away in a submarine like the president from 24, you didn't social engineer the science center well enough, they'll tell you it doesn't work anymore") Anyways, thanks for the link OP -- enjoy spooky season!!
neonate 4y ago
https://archive.ph/Qml1c https://archive.ph/Qml1c
MBCook 4y ago
Let’s ignore TikTok for a second. (This is a US perspective) The last few years have been very rough. Then Covid came and made it way worse, destroying kids worlds. Tons of people needed help. But that made everything worse if you tried to find help. At least in my area there weren’t enough psychiatrists and counselors before Covid. After it could be months to get an initial appointment if you could even find someone willing. And cost is a huge issue. They’re teens. Care and meds are expensive. And many insurance plans don’t help as much as they would for normal issues. So what are they going to do? Turn to what they know. Online stuff, especially TikTok. I’m not saying any of this is good. But it seems symptomatic of much more systemic failures. Isn’t this a bit like complaining homeless people keep sleeping on benches or GoFundMe has too many medical donation requests?
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Even as an adult, it’s a challenge. I’ve had to find a new psychiatrist several times due to them retiring or leaving. Getting anything faster than 2 months is impossible. My latest one had to be booked four months in advance.
caseysoftware 4y ago
The leads to an obvious question: Are there other mental health issues being spurred on by TikTok? If so, which ones? And then the followup: Is it more beneficial to the individual to affirm OR challenge the TikTok-driven self diagnosis?
faeriechangling 4y ago
The people in the communities believe in a moral right to having self-diagnosis believed. Having a diagnosis is almost considered a form of privilege reserved for wealthy white males, an observation rooted in scientific evidence of systemic under diagnosis for minorities and women. It is a banable offense from disability communities to doubt somebodies diagnosis. I was told nobody lied about faking a diagnosis, so I faked a diagnosis under extremely suspect circumstances, was believed, revealed my deception, and was permanently banned. Regardless of the morality of my actions, the point is that people want to truly believe that everybody they meet that self-diagnose themselves with disabilities is valid, and anybody who attacks this delusion is an enemy to be expelled from the community, even if such a person is doubtlessly disabled. The way I see it, ideology has become more important for membership in these communities than actually having a disability, because somebody ideologically misaligned is a threat to “safety” or whatever. I’ve seen people call for moderators to be taken out over “fakeclaiming”. I find the entire ideology espoused in TikTok to be deeply naive and grounded in a false implicit assumption that a label of disability will make peoples lives better and thus to deny them that label is some sort of cruelty. I’ve been in conversations where somebody asks “am I diagnosed”, they will describe something that disqualifies the diagnosis, I point out no they can’t be they don’t fit the criteria, and others in the thread will start saying “oh they must not have meant that they must have meant this” and I’ll just sit there stone cold fucking baffled. I wonder how many people will suffer untreated illnesses because strangers on the internet talked them into thinking they had a developmental disability when they really had hypothyroidism or something because they treat not having a diagnosis like failing to catch a Pokémon.
- bananamerica 4y ago
  I see accepting self diagnosis online as a practical measure. Since it is not possible for an online community to ascertain wether someone qualifies for a diagnosis or not, discussing it is entirely unproductive and a wasp's nest. That doesn't mean everyone truly share's the same diagnosis, only that there's nothing to gain by doubting what they're saying. A lot of people arrive at these communities due to their insecurities and personal pain, and it's not helpful to go around pointing fingers saying "you're not part of this group". They're support groups, not medical boards.
Mikeb85 4y ago
Well you're not getting an appointment within the next year here in Canada...
est 4y ago
Tiktok aside, if people use online "collaborative filtering" platform of mental health problems, what's the pros and cons?
georgeplusplus 4y ago
As someone who doesn't live in USA, it's really disturbing the amount of mental health issues children and teenagers have in the USA. This seems abnormally common.
theshrike79 4y ago
There is a reason why https://www.reddit.com/r/fakedisordercringe/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fakedisordercringe/ is a thing. Teenagers are, by nature, trying to fit in. Because of the internet (and TikTok) they try to find themseves belonging to specific mental/physical disorder groups by faking the symptoms. People develop the weirdest "alter" systems (faking DID), everyone seems to have self-diagnosed ADHD and depression or is on the autism spectrum. Tourettes is another faker staple. For many it's just a phase and they figure out who they are (as teens do), but some go down the deep end and actually develop mental issues from faking having mental issues so long... Or it becomes a part of their identity and they find friends in the scene so they need to keep doing it.
- tpmoney 4y ago
  > but some go down the deep end and actually develop mental issues from faking having mental issues so long... Given the number of mental disorder that first show major symptoms in later childhood, early teen years, I sometimes wonder how you would distinguish someone with a "real" disorder, and someone who "faked it til they made it". I also find it sort of weird how much as a society we're hung up on hunting down fakers. It's oddly pervasive once you start looking around, and I worry that in many cases we're doing more harm than good. Our obsession with finding people that are fakers about pain has led to immense pain and suffering for those that need pain treatment (and like my question above, it's amazing how many "signs of addiction" look exactly like "signs of someone in pain and being un(der)treated. Fears of fakers makes any government assistance program a nightmare to get into, and a nightmare to navigate, never mind the number that are held back. In the end, I wonder what is worse, for 100 teens to be over diagnosed, to go through life thinking they have a disorder and being medicated when they don't need it, but for 100 other teens to get the help and support they need for real problems. Or for those teens to be untreated. To go through life convinced they're just lazy, or stupid or just not trying hard enough. But at least their normal peers aren't being overmedicated or convinced they have something wrong with them that they don't. Sure in an ideal world, 100 teens would be treated as they need, and 100 others would not as they don't. But in the real world, it feels like we often lean towards preferring some suffer so that those that might be faking don't get their way. And I'm not convinced that's a good thing.
harha_ 4y ago
Could we please keep hackernews free of this mainstream social media madness? I feel like about 50% of people in modern society are insane to the core, consuming whatever next "viral" thing is thrown at them, mindlessly.
antman 4y ago
I just need to point out the catastrophic effect of removing downvoting from youtube, and the subsequent proliferation of hoax and sensationalism in healthcare, exercise and psychology video content.
janef0421 4y ago
I think a lot of this stems from how our culture treats diagnosis. There is a strong pressure to conform to normative ways of being, and diagnosis with a "mental illness/disorder" is often the only way for non-normative ways of being to be legitimised and tolerated. Consequently, non-normative individuals will often seek some mental health diagnosis in order to avoid social pressure and judgment.
rongopo 4y ago
At what age is sensible to bring a kid for a diagnose on autism? I mean, I was told to bring in my 3 y old, but I find the risk of false positive is just too high.

Half of them simply have tiktok addiction, and if they were to uninstall tiktok and go find some real friends instead of following semi-celebrities, the other mental health issues would probably subside too...

not_the_fda 4y ago

I have 15yo step-daughter and she has self-diagnosed herself through the whole DSM-IV because of TikTok. You have to walk a fine line between listened and supporting and calling BS. Spent thousands on a therapist to convince her otherwise.

faeriechangling 4y ago
Reading a diagnostic criteria doesn’t mean you have done a proper differential. You need to read far more than criteria that became obsolete in 2011 to establish disability.

candiodari 4y ago

Mental Health Diagnosis, even by longtime professionals, is notoriously unrealiable. Research keeps finding that it is determined more by the attitude, experience and values (ie. for example religious values) of the person doing the diagnosis. In practice, the number of clients/patients complaining that their diagnosis was changed something like 10 times, with an ever longer list of ever more serious problems, while treatments don't work, but DO interfere with life. And then there are mandatory treatments that keep being researched as worse than doing nothing. And, of course, there is the famous study of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment And it's more recent, less dramatic, but probably more valid cousin: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190708131152.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190708131152.h... Add to that that everyone feels capable of making such diagnoses themselves anyway. In every ended relationship these days, it seems, the relationship ended because the woman was schizophrenic and the man nacissist ... or vice versa. It used to be the case that if a person is "functional", which usually means able to hold down a job for at least a couple of months at a time, they were psychologically healthy. So why not make mental health diagnoses on tiktok, in bars, in ... everywhere? Yes it's not very valid, but everyone's doing it anyway ... and the official way to do it is not much more valid than doing things that way. This way, hopefully, people can see mental health diagnosis as what it really is: 99% bullshit.

gsatic 4y ago
Sure it can be unreliable cuz we are dealing with the brain which as a system is less understood than a cyclone. Its natural the pros will get things wrong cause of the complexity and dynamic nature of the issues, but don't kid yourself that your SO or family members or friends or work mates are going to do a better job. If they have never handled the issue before it's almost guaranteed they will create new issues and then cry about or hide behind their good intdntions after things blow up in their face.
- candiodari 4y ago
  > Its natural the pros will get things wrong cause of the complexity and dynamic nature of the issues, but don't kid yourself that your SO or family members or friends or work mates are going to do a better job. I would expect "professionals" to do a better job. They don't. Otherwise ... one might point out Kenny Rogers is a professional: he's always been paid for his role (I doubt much acting was involved) in MTV's show "jackass". Being a "pro" means nothing, and certainly does not mean you beat amateurs. Plus, this is hacker news. In CS most amateurs, by virtue of actually liking what they do and putting in more effort, beat most professionals. Certainly on an individual level. > If they have never handled the issue before it's almost guaranteed they will create new issues and then cry about or hide behind their good intdntions after things blow up in their face. This is exactly the behaviour we keep seeing from professionals. Specifically, mental health has nothing remotely like the medical profession's responsibility, they do not accept the consequences of what they do, and they always hide behind their "good" intentions (scare quotes because: pros are by definition paid for their good intentions) Here's a story of situations mental health "professionals" created: https://elan.school/83-keyed-up https://elan.school/83-keyed-up The history of psychology and psychiatry is full of lies, deceit and, more than anything else: abuse. Mostly of underage girls. One might point out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Freudian_Coverup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Freudian_Coverup What was the best-selling product of dr. Sigmund Freud? I will point out his name is still revered by current psychologists. That product was: testifying in court how girls (and boys, though much less often) wanted to be raped, and thereby caused and carried guilt for being raped. In addition to this he silenced victims ... with violence. Not for free, of course. Also with drugs, therapy, making them doubt themselves, ... whatever he could. Current psychologists largely still do not see a problem with either his theories (they'll say they're "superseded") or his actions. One can only assume his status as the best earning psychologist ever has something to do with that. The brain is understood well enough to totally discredit 90% of psychology. It has just never been the intention of psychologists to be accurate. That's literally not what the science entails. They want to change the world for the better. Lying to accomplish that may be a grey zone, but it is quite well accepted this is part of how psychology works. It's like political science. Whether some claim is true or not is, at best, considered secondary to its effect on people. Perhaps not ideal, but let's say useful. For example, a claim that you will find well supported, but not in psychology is that abused people ... are very likely to abuse others. It's of course a controversial claim, but it's pretty well supported. Psychologists will not accept it. Now this, I guess, can be valid position, because if you want to change the world for the better, then perhaps not accepting this claim is the right thing to do. But none of that has any bearing on the truth of it.

werber 4y ago

I like that this article bookends with the young person finding that the real cause of their symptoms was isolation from their peers. Not that it’s always the case, but, I hope it’s a common cure that more people seek out first

notacoward 4y ago
> the real cause of their symptoms was isolation from their peers But who are their peers? Sometimes having a word for how you are can help you find other people you'll vibe with, even if it's technically a misdiagnosis. I've seen it both with neurodivergence and LGBTQ, with kids who arguably don't even fit the label but find and return great value in those communities anyway. I'm sure people here can appreciate how sometimes results matter more than adherence to inflexible rules laid down in some book.
- werber 4y ago
  I completely agree, My mom has been concerned that my teenage step sister and her peers almost all identify as non binary, but it seems like they’ve built a happy high school experience around sharing that. Whether or not they identify as non binary for life seems inconsequential if it serves them now, but I’m kinda excited by the younger generation just being like nah to gender
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > My mom has been concerned that my teenage step sister and her peers almost all identify as non binary No one is "binary". Even the voltage levels inside electronic circuits, that everyone calls binary, are not binary. What's up with this contemporary obsession for seeing everything in pure black-and-white terms and dismissing the power of the rare, mysterious and unknown liminal states of being, acknowledged since time immemorial by countless traditions?
    - jakear 4y ago
      The subject is born and told they are “gender A”, rather than the alternative: “gender B”. They observe that in the world around them (media, etc.), “gender A” implies X, Y, and Z traits, and “gender B” implies W, R, and T traits. The subject does not feel they exhibit exclusively X Y and Z traits nor exclusively W R and T traits, but rather some mixture of the two. The subject then has two options. Reject the worldview claiming A=>XYZ B=>WRT, in flavor of a more dynamic classification scheme; or introduce a new category, C, which maps to their experienced subset of XYZWRT. I’ve seen no evidence to support one approach being more valid than the other.

meowfly 4y ago

My experience has been a mental health diagnosis, even from a professional, has the terrible byproduct of reifying the symptoms of that condition. It's perfectly possible that the environment that manifests something like social phobia can change, and a person who previously felt uncomfortable doing something can feel again comfortable. However, if having social anxiety becomes part of your identity, it becomes the lense that you see the world. TikTok makes it easy, but social media as a whole is identity obsessed by its nature, and as the article illustrates is making this problem worse.

djaychela 4y ago
This has been my experience, both professionally (I used to teach children at a school which specialises in those who may have some form of diagnosis), and in my personal life with 4 step children, 3 of whom have ASD diagnoses. For the vast majority who I taught, the diagnosis became their identity, rather than a way to understand their behaviour. Any disagreement with them was answered with "that's because I'm X". I can only recall one who approached it as a way to identify and understand their behaviour and experience of the world, and as a way to deeper understanding.
- bjornsing 4y ago
  So what is an identity if not “a way to understand their behaviour and experience of the world”? I think the problem the GP raises is inherent in the whole diagnosis concept, and that it’s generally a bad idea to label large parts of the personality spectrum as some kind of (incurable) illness.
  - ipython 4y ago
    Not the gp, but I think the difference lies in mindset. There’s the “victim” mindset where you know the diagnosis and it becomes a convenient scapegoat for your symptoms. “I can’t do that because I’m X.” You see yourself as unable to escape the diagnosis and enter a state of learned helplessness. The desired outcome is an enlightenment mindset. “Ah, so that’s why I act that way. Well now that I know that and have x, y and z methods for addressing it, I can overcome/adapt”. As you can imagine it’s a lot more work to achieve this mindset.

satysin 4y ago

I have seen this first hand with a (non-teenager) family member. They self-diagnosed with ADHD over the past two years. Then they paid to get a private assessment and sure enough got diagnosed with ADHD. Do I think they have ADHD? Nope, not at all. So why the official diagnosis and treatment with pharmaceuticals? He learnt everything he needed to know to easily fool the doctor assessing him. He knew every test they would use and exactly how to respond. And as he is an intelligent guy he didn't go in there and flag every single thing but just enough to look like a legitimate person struggling with attention and executive function. He told me before the assessment he wants the medication and he got exactly what he wanted. My son was diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago so I have seen first hand how the assessments work and it is a joke how much "flexibility" there is. It isn't like a blood or culture test where you can detect the presence or lack of some substance. It is mostly voodoo for want of a better word. One question I ask myself is does he genuinely think he has ADHD or did he just want the meds and figured out a way to get them while looking genuine?

ethanbond 4y ago
A third option is that he does have ADHD and you, a bystander, are doing the misdiagnosis. IMO for disorders like this it’s almost better to view it through the lens of the available treatments. Is the treatment, on net and relative to other possible strategies, going to be a positive impact on this person? If yes, then whether they have apparent Disorder X (a figment of imagination) versus actual Disorder X (which is itself also a figment of our collective imagination) isn’t super relevant. Obviously in the case of ADHD the prescription drugs are pretty intense and have pretty severe negative consequences, so this framework in that case would probably even yield that people with actual ADHD but mild forms shouldn’t have those drugs pushed on them either.
- satysin 4y ago
  > A third option is that he does have ADHD and you, a bystander, are doing the misdiagnosis. Very possible. To me it is just very suspect given my near 30 years of knowing them and other events in their life not long before all of this started. They have never presented any ADHD traits until recently when suddenly they went from 0 to 100. From being a successful engineer to being unable to concentrate on a crossword. My personal opinion is they have untreated PTSD following a violent animal attack in early 2020 that caused life-long damage to their dominant hand. This in turn led to them suffering panic attacks around animals, anxiety due to the Covid lockdowns making treatment/physio complicated, furlough leading to isolation at home and being unable to do many of their hobbies from the physical injury (unable to play video games, the guitar, drums, etc) Tangentially related but they have a history of drug misuse and when I asked if they just wanted the medication their response was "Absolutely". I have mentioned seeking therapy as I suspected PTSD (I myself have C-PTSD from childhood abuse) but he made it clear he has no interest in therapy and just wants the medication which to me is not a great sign. Of course I could be wrong but I know him well and my worry is they will happily throw medication at him which will do nothing to help him deal with what I believe are the actual issues he is suffering from.

amelius 4y ago

Teens don't watch Dr. Phil anymore and this is the result.

richardjam73 4y ago

In the late 80s I noticed that I was mentally unwell. One day I went to library and they had some brochures on different forms of mental illnesses. I took one about schizophrenia and matched a symptom or two and assumed I was schizophrenic but I wasn't. I was young and had no guidance. It took over a year for me to realise that I wasn't schizophrenic. Labels can be useful if you actually understand what they mean but most people have no training to do so. It would be better if we focused on symptoms that negatively impact people's lives than illness labels.

willnonya 4y ago
What could go wrong with kids seeming mental health advice on tiktok... Nothing stupid ever comes out of there. Besides, kids today are just naturally smarter, just ask one and theyll tell you.

ivanhoe 4y ago

Back in the day it was much simpler - what ever symptoms you tried googling you'd inevitably end up with a self-diagnose of cancer every time.

cpsns 4y ago

I really think this phenomenon is due to just how hard a diagnosis is to get in many countries. Here in Canada you need a referral from a doctor (hard to get on its own), then you have to wait many months to years to see someone. Alternatively you can go private and spend quite literally thousands of dollars like I have. Teens may recognize something is wrong, but simply not have access to the systems they need. We don’t want people to self diagnosing, but we as a society don’t enable them to get the help they need, so they turn to social media.

dontbenebby 4y ago

Videos in general are really difficult to learn from, in my experience. I started learning infosec when bandwidth was scarce snd you'd avoid clicking video heavy links if for no other reason than the risk your computer would hang. You can watch a video, paired with written material, but in my experience the best way to learn is assigned readings and/or exercises, then circling back to discuss them with a subject matter expert if you truly don't understand how to perform the attack or math problem or whatever. I don't have a Tik Tok, but I've used enough social media to say I don't think I'd want my kids getting their mental health information from there. Now, if an existing institution uses Tik Tok or Facebook or Myspace or whatever to share their content, that's one thing, but the combination of "new network" with "new content creator" where neither side seems to care about the health of society as a whole... creates problems IMO. (Then again, the same assholes who used to wander around Scott Township every Halloween handing out fifty cent pieces to children still haven't threat modeled basic things like "if your plan for a cyberpunk future was to run away in a submarine like the president from 24, you didn't social engineer the science center well enough, they'll tell you it doesn't work anymore") Anyways, thanks for the link OP -- enjoy spooky season!!

neonate 4y ago

https://archive.ph/Qml1c https://archive.ph/Qml1c

MBCook 4y ago

Let’s ignore TikTok for a second. (This is a US perspective) The last few years have been very rough. Then Covid came and made it way worse, destroying kids worlds. Tons of people needed help. But that made everything worse if you tried to find help. At least in my area there weren’t enough psychiatrists and counselors before Covid. After it could be months to get an initial appointment if you could even find someone willing. And cost is a huge issue. They’re teens. Care and meds are expensive. And many insurance plans don’t help as much as they would for normal issues. So what are they going to do? Turn to what they know. Online stuff, especially TikTok. I’m not saying any of this is good. But it seems symptomatic of much more systemic failures. Isn’t this a bit like complaining homeless people keep sleeping on benches or GoFundMe has too many medical donation requests?

kayodelycaon 4y ago
Even as an adult, it’s a challenge. I’ve had to find a new psychiatrist several times due to them retiring or leaving. Getting anything faster than 2 months is impossible. My latest one had to be booked four months in advance.

caseysoftware 4y ago

The leads to an obvious question: Are there other mental health issues being spurred on by TikTok? If so, which ones? And then the followup: Is it more beneficial to the individual to affirm OR challenge the TikTok-driven self diagnosis?

faeriechangling 4y ago

The people in the communities believe in a moral right to having self-diagnosis believed. Having a diagnosis is almost considered a form of privilege reserved for wealthy white males, an observation rooted in scientific evidence of systemic under diagnosis for minorities and women. It is a banable offense from disability communities to doubt somebodies diagnosis. I was told nobody lied about faking a diagnosis, so I faked a diagnosis under extremely suspect circumstances, was believed, revealed my deception, and was permanently banned. Regardless of the morality of my actions, the point is that people want to truly believe that everybody they meet that self-diagnose themselves with disabilities is valid, and anybody who attacks this delusion is an enemy to be expelled from the community, even if such a person is doubtlessly disabled. The way I see it, ideology has become more important for membership in these communities than actually having a disability, because somebody ideologically misaligned is a threat to “safety” or whatever. I’ve seen people call for moderators to be taken out over “fakeclaiming”. I find the entire ideology espoused in TikTok to be deeply naive and grounded in a false implicit assumption that a label of disability will make peoples lives better and thus to deny them that label is some sort of cruelty. I’ve been in conversations where somebody asks “am I diagnosed”, they will describe something that disqualifies the diagnosis, I point out no they can’t be they don’t fit the criteria, and others in the thread will start saying “oh they must not have meant that they must have meant this” and I’ll just sit there stone cold fucking baffled. I wonder how many people will suffer untreated illnesses because strangers on the internet talked them into thinking they had a developmental disability when they really had hypothyroidism or something because they treat not having a diagnosis like failing to catch a Pokémon.

bananamerica 4y ago
I see accepting self diagnosis online as a practical measure. Since it is not possible for an online community to ascertain wether someone qualifies for a diagnosis or not, discussing it is entirely unproductive and a wasp's nest. That doesn't mean everyone truly share's the same diagnosis, only that there's nothing to gain by doubting what they're saying. A lot of people arrive at these communities due to their insecurities and personal pain, and it's not helpful to go around pointing fingers saying "you're not part of this group". They're support groups, not medical boards.

Mikeb85 4y ago

Well you're not getting an appointment within the next year here in Canada...

est 4y ago

Tiktok aside, if people use online "collaborative filtering" platform of mental health problems, what's the pros and cons?

georgeplusplus 4y ago

As someone who doesn't live in USA, it's really disturbing the amount of mental health issues children and teenagers have in the USA. This seems abnormally common.

theshrike79 4y ago

There is a reason why https://www.reddit.com/r/fakedisordercringe/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fakedisordercringe/ is a thing. Teenagers are, by nature, trying to fit in. Because of the internet (and TikTok) they try to find themseves belonging to specific mental/physical disorder groups by faking the symptoms. People develop the weirdest "alter" systems (faking DID), everyone seems to have self-diagnosed ADHD and depression or is on the autism spectrum. Tourettes is another faker staple. For many it's just a phase and they figure out who they are (as teens do), but some go down the deep end and actually develop mental issues from faking having mental issues so long... Or it becomes a part of their identity and they find friends in the scene so they need to keep doing it.

tpmoney 4y ago
> but some go down the deep end and actually develop mental issues from faking having mental issues so long... Given the number of mental disorder that first show major symptoms in later childhood, early teen years, I sometimes wonder how you would distinguish someone with a "real" disorder, and someone who "faked it til they made it". I also find it sort of weird how much as a society we're hung up on hunting down fakers. It's oddly pervasive once you start looking around, and I worry that in many cases we're doing more harm than good. Our obsession with finding people that are fakers about pain has led to immense pain and suffering for those that need pain treatment (and like my question above, it's amazing how many "signs of addiction" look exactly like "signs of someone in pain and being un(der)treated. Fears of fakers makes any government assistance program a nightmare to get into, and a nightmare to navigate, never mind the number that are held back. In the end, I wonder what is worse, for 100 teens to be over diagnosed, to go through life thinking they have a disorder and being medicated when they don't need it, but for 100 other teens to get the help and support they need for real problems. Or for those teens to be untreated. To go through life convinced they're just lazy, or stupid or just not trying hard enough. But at least their normal peers aren't being overmedicated or convinced they have something wrong with them that they don't. Sure in an ideal world, 100 teens would be treated as they need, and 100 others would not as they don't. But in the real world, it feels like we often lean towards preferring some suffer so that those that might be faking don't get their way. And I'm not convinced that's a good thing.

harha_ 4y ago

Could we please keep hackernews free of this mainstream social media madness? I feel like about 50% of people in modern society are insane to the core, consuming whatever next "viral" thing is thrown at them, mindlessly.

antman 4y ago

I just need to point out the catastrophic effect of removing downvoting from youtube, and the subsequent proliferation of hoax and sensationalism in healthcare, exercise and psychology video content.

janef0421 4y ago

I think a lot of this stems from how our culture treats diagnosis. There is a strong pressure to conform to normative ways of being, and diagnosis with a "mental illness/disorder" is often the only way for non-normative ways of being to be legitimised and tolerated. Consequently, non-normative individuals will often seek some mental health diagnosis in order to avoid social pressure and judgment.

rongopo 4y ago

At what age is sensible to bring a kid for a diagnose on autism? I mean, I was told to bring in my 3 y old, but I find the risk of false positive is just too high.