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> I want to see increased valuations... increasing dividend > For gods sake, I do not want [environmental, social, or governance] goals When did saying "I inv

> I want to see increased valuations... increasing dividend > For gods sake, I do not want [environmental, social, or governance] goals When did saying "I invest in a company for the endless unrestrained amoral growth ethic turning human society into the control theory equivalent of a cancer cell" turn into such a big boogey man?

chii 4y ago
When did "profit" equate to "endless unrestrained amoral growth ethic turning human society into the control theory equivalent of a cancer cell" in the first place?
- bsenftner 4y ago
  When finance abstracted Capital to the point that Wall Street became an end onto itself, and every justification for amoral financial behavior was levied as fiduciary responsibility, that is when US Business became the equivalent of an out of control Cancer. The US American form of capitalism is an exploitative Ponzi scheme, which is ironic considering the Christianity that is supposed to be afloat. In a more mature and moral society Capitalism would not be the Jack Booted Thug we have manifested. Plain fact: the human race is not as mature as it thinks it is.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Nobody cares about "fiduciary responsibility" in this case. CEOs are not required to maximize profit for their shareholders. If they'll go right ahead and say that in public, you can safely say the lawyers aren't warning them about it. https://www.businessroundtable.org/business-roundtable-redefines-the-purpose-of-a-corporation-to-promote-an-economy-that-serves-all-americans https://www.businessroundtable.org/business-roundtable-redef...
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  If a nice looking quarterly report is set as the single overriding goal above all other goals, it will by definition override all other goals, time horizons and externalities.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Which it practically never is, right? How many companies have you seen selling off 100% of their assets to maximize this quarter's results?
- aredox 4y ago
  https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/paperclip-maximizer#:~:text=The%20paperclip%20maximizer%20is%20the,could%20pose%20an%20existential%20threat https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/paperclip-maximizer#:~:text=Th....
OrangeMonkey 4y ago
You should know that an appeal to follow ESG practices is likely to be found illegal right? I know references and facts arn't as fun as emotional pleas and comparing investing for financial growth to cancer... but lets try it anyway? > in May, under the banner of promoting ESG, nearly 50% of Travelers Insurance shareholders asked the company to break the law. Full stop. Specifically, about 47% of its investors backed a shareholder proposal that would have caused the company to collect and consider race when writing insurance policies, in direct violation of state law. [1] > “Our states will not idly stand for our pensioners’ retirements to be sacrificed for BlackRock’s climate agenda. [2] > "As fiduciaries, trustees must act in ways that financially benefit the trust and its beneficiaries. Trustees who fail to do so are liable for damages to the beneficiaries, and may face additional legal penalties. The social and environmental goals involved in ESG investing create a greater potential for violations of fiduciary law by introducing motives for investment choices outside the traditional definition. Are trustees selecting ESG-focused mutual funds because they believe they are suitable investments, or do they merely hope to make the world a better place by deploying capital under their control according to socially pressured or personally held beliefs?" [4] Of course, that doesn't stop well meaning fools from trying to change the definition of words to make what they are doing not illegal. > As the landscape for investment changes, so too does the notion of fiduciary duty. The processes and approaches used to guide investment decisions have evolved over time in response to changes in the generally accepted understanding of market behavior. We are again at an inflection point. As the evidence and rationale behind addressing material and business related impacts of ESG factors in the investment process further develops and is increasingly accepted, so does our understanding of these factors through a fiduciary lens. [3] [1] - https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/oct/24/is-environmental-social-and-corporate-governance-e/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/oct/24/is-environm... [2] - https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/ag-paxton-demands-blackrock-account-its-underperforming-potentially-illegal-esg-state-pension-fund https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/ag-paxton... [3] - https://www.intentionalendowments.org/fiduciary_duty_is_not_an_obstacle_to_addressing_esg https://www.intentionalendowments.org/fiduciary_duty_is_not_... [4] - https://www.palisadeshudson.com/2022/07/an-esg-investing-hazard-for-fiduciaries/ https://www.palisadeshudson.com/2022/07/an-esg-investing-haz...
- 4y ago
aredox 4y ago
And what's "funny" is that the same person will then worry about AI destroying the world because of the "paperclip problem".

chii 4y ago

When did "profit" equate to "endless unrestrained amoral growth ethic turning human society into the control theory equivalent of a cancer cell" in the first place?

bsenftner 4y ago
When finance abstracted Capital to the point that Wall Street became an end onto itself, and every justification for amoral financial behavior was levied as fiduciary responsibility, that is when US Business became the equivalent of an out of control Cancer. The US American form of capitalism is an exploitative Ponzi scheme, which is ironic considering the Christianity that is supposed to be afloat. In a more mature and moral society Capitalism would not be the Jack Booted Thug we have manifested. Plain fact: the human race is not as mature as it thinks it is.
- astrange 4y ago
  Nobody cares about "fiduciary responsibility" in this case. CEOs are not required to maximize profit for their shareholders. If they'll go right ahead and say that in public, you can safely say the lawyers aren't warning them about it. https://www.businessroundtable.org/business-roundtable-redefines-the-purpose-of-a-corporation-to-promote-an-economy-that-serves-all-americans https://www.businessroundtable.org/business-roundtable-redef...
marginalia_nu 4y ago
If a nice looking quarterly report is set as the single overriding goal above all other goals, it will by definition override all other goals, time horizons and externalities.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Which it practically never is, right? How many companies have you seen selling off 100% of their assets to maximize this quarter's results?
aredox 4y ago
https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/paperclip-maximizer#:~:text=The%20paperclip%20maximizer%20is%20the,could%20pose%20an%20existential%20threat https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/paperclip-maximizer#:~:text=Th....

OrangeMonkey 4y ago

You should know that an appeal to follow ESG practices is likely to be found illegal right? I know references and facts arn't as fun as emotional pleas and comparing investing for financial growth to cancer... but lets try it anyway? > in May, under the banner of promoting ESG, nearly 50% of Travelers Insurance shareholders asked the company to break the law. Full stop. Specifically, about 47% of its investors backed a shareholder proposal that would have caused the company to collect and consider race when writing insurance policies, in direct violation of state law. [1] > “Our states will not idly stand for our pensioners’ retirements to be sacrificed for BlackRock’s climate agenda. [2] > "As fiduciaries, trustees must act in ways that financially benefit the trust and its beneficiaries. Trustees who fail to do so are liable for damages to the beneficiaries, and may face additional legal penalties. The social and environmental goals involved in ESG investing create a greater potential for violations of fiduciary law by introducing motives for investment choices outside the traditional definition. Are trustees selecting ESG-focused mutual funds because they believe they are suitable investments, or do they merely hope to make the world a better place by deploying capital under their control according to socially pressured or personally held beliefs?" [4] Of course, that doesn't stop well meaning fools from trying to change the definition of words to make what they are doing not illegal. > As the landscape for investment changes, so too does the notion of fiduciary duty. The processes and approaches used to guide investment decisions have evolved over time in response to changes in the generally accepted understanding of market behavior. We are again at an inflection point. As the evidence and rationale behind addressing material and business related impacts of ESG factors in the investment process further develops and is increasingly accepted, so does our understanding of these factors through a fiduciary lens. [3] [1] - https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/oct/24/is-environmental-social-and-corporate-governance-e/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/oct/24/is-environm... [2] - https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/ag-paxton-demands-blackrock-account-its-underperforming-potentially-illegal-esg-state-pension-fund https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/ag-paxton... [3] - https://www.intentionalendowments.org/fiduciary_duty_is_not_an_obstacle_to_addressing_esg https://www.intentionalendowments.org/fiduciary_duty_is_not_... [4] - https://www.palisadeshudson.com/2022/07/an-esg-investing-hazard-for-fiduciaries/ https://www.palisadeshudson.com/2022/07/an-esg-investing-haz...

4y ago

aredox 4y ago

And what's "funny" is that the same person will then worry about AI destroying the world because of the "paperclip problem".