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Aizuchi: Does your listening make Japanese people uncomfortable? (2013)

116 points by karaokeyoga 4y ago

O__________O 4y ago
Reminds me of impact of culture on aviation safety: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_saf...
foobarian 4y ago
Forget about the nitty gritty of how it works, I didn't even know this was a thing until today. Lovely article :-)
whoisjuan 4y ago
I have a couple of work relationships with people who don’t provide any verbal or physical cues that they’re listening and following what I’m saying. It makes having conversations with those folks incredibly difficult. It probably doesn’t help that we are having these conversations via Zoom, but I interact with other people via Zoom, and I don’t have this problem.
- aliqot 4y ago
  Hate to admit I get this sometimes, check if your mic is muted.
jobs_throwaway 4y ago
> For example, sometimes you'll be saying something in English to a Japanese person. They have no idea what you're saying, but because they're such good listeners, they're saying "yes, yes, yes" to everything you say (because that's the translation of hai, right?). At some point, you ask them an important question: "Do you want to join my Starcraft2 team?" They say "yes" not because they want to join your team (they really don't) but because they have no clue what you're saying (and they're good listeners). That explains a lot honestly
- ant6n 4y ago
  Yes!
- antihero 4y ago
  That makes you a terrible listener though. Fake listening is worse than just straight up ignoring someone.
  - jobs_throwaway 4y ago
    Did you read the article? In Japanese culture, those sorts of exclamations are an integral part of good listening. Its probably pretty hard to just switch that off when you're put in a context with a language barrier
    - hombre_fatal 4y ago
      Well, they aren't wrong. Nonconfrontation + mimed politeness are better descriptions than "good listening" when you bluff your way in a convo you don't understand. Reminds me of the "Place, Japan" meme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan). The first panel can have an American not understanding a foreign language next to a disgusted soyjack, and the second panel has a Japanese guy smiling while he doesn't understand a word next to a "clap clap" retard soyjack screaming "amazing listener!"
    - iherbig 4y ago
      You and antihero are talking about two different kinds of "good listening," though. "Being a good listener" has both a practical and a social component. You are referring to the social component ("in Japanese culture..."). The tenets of social interactions in Japanese culture which have been ingrained in speakers of the language to one extent or another. The performance aspect of the act of listening. antihero is talking about the practical form of "good listening" when they say "that makes you a terrible listener though." That is, what is the function of "listening" in a social interaction? I would hazard a guess that they believe the function of listening is to understand what another person is saying. And by that benchmark, an individual who is not actually reaching any sort of understanding is a "bad listener" irrespective of how successful they are at performing the cultural/social component of the act of listening. There's the additional implication that because signaling you are understanding when you are not leads to misunderstanding (which is the antithesis of the intended function of listening), it makes the listener an even worse quality listener than if they were not performing.
navhc 4y ago
> The fact that there isn't even a proper translation of the word in English, though, just proves that native English speakers aren't as aware of it as Japanese speakers The article seems to make a pretty big point about this being a foreign concept that is difficult to articulate, but in English linguistics we call it "backchanneling". Obviously it won't be a perfect one-to-one translation but it's the same as what is described in the opening.
- presentation 4y ago
  Honestly as an American living in Japan, it’s nothing like anything I’ve experienced in the USA. My wife will say “Hai” about as many times as her conversation partner stops for a breath, which felt very unnatural to me in English (she’ll replace it with mhm’s in English and it still feels quite aggressively frequent). Maybe the same idea but the execution is a different level.
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    I've met a few people in the US who will nod and make some sort of acknowledging sound after every sentence (or more often) you say, so while rare, it's not exactly something I've never come across.
  - porknubbins 4y ago
    A lot of hai’s is what one end of a polite Japanese conversations sounds like. In my experience Japanese friends speaking casually say it much less, unless one of them happens to be on some extended monologue. From this perspective one reason English speakers use acknowledgement much less is that conversations coded as formal or polite are much rarer.(think how you respond to a desired job offer, chances are you would be very active in frequently expressing positive assent).
- etage3 4y ago
  It also appears to be similar to Jakobson phatic function (checking if the channel is working).
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
Japan: learn our language and on top adopt our mannerisms to keep us comfortable US: What WE learn your language? YOU learn ours but don't actually speak it cuz that's cultural appropriation.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- CobaltFire 4y ago
  English is de facto required in Middle and High School in Japan, and many parents pay for extra tutoring. Many of the best corporate positions require you have a minimum fluency. In other words: I have no idea where you got that idea.
causi 4y ago
Yes, aizuchi does sound a bit like the deeply concerning goop you left in a Kleenex last time you got a severe case of Bronchitis (hopefully that doesn't happen often), How did we jump from something as intense as blacksmithing to having a conversation, quite possibly over afternoon tea? Is there a Japanese word for completely pointless sentence embellishments that do nothing but slow the article to an agonizing drag?
- throwaway284534 4y ago
  Ironically, that’s how most email correspondence worked when I lived in Japan. Nearly every message had a paragraph of fluff before getting to the unpleasant details: Dear Customer, It seems that the leaves are once again turning to their Fall colors, and the chill of an autumn breeze is once again upon us… Also we haven’t received your television license fee yet and it would be most appreciated if you could please send us it immediately. Warmest regards, -X
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    That is a notably pleasant way to be taxed, though. I would appreciate the IRS more if their communications were like that.
    - version_five 4y ago
      Personally I'd rather someone tell me directly what I did wrong and what they want than coat it in fluff, which I consider offensively passive-aggressive. I know that is cultural though, and that in some cultures, e.g Japanese, it may be taken very offensively to just come out and say what you want
      - shagie 4y ago
        That "some cultures" tends to be known as "high context cultures". https://sites.psu.edu/global/2020/04/18/japan-high-context-communication-style/ https://sites.psu.edu/global/2020/04/18/japan-high-context-c... > Just like Saudi Arabia and Spain, Japan is also characterized by high-context communication (R. T. Moran; N. R. Abramson; S. V. Moran, 2014, p. 44). Some of Japan’s traditions, values and norms have supported its high context communication. According to Hofstede’s culture dimension, Japan scores 46 on individualism, indicating that they are more likely to show characteristics of a collectivistic society; such as putting harmony of the group above the expression of individual opinions and people have a strong sense of shame for losing face (Hofstede Insights, n.d.). With this, the Japanese have established an in-direct and non-verbal communication within their inner circle rather than the outside circle of the world. Thus, in Japan, communication goes non-verbally, through subtle gestures, facial expression and voice tones. However, this can be a big challenge for foreigners and westerners that do not understand the Japanese language and communication. https://kosoadojapan.com/high-context-culture-japan https://kosoadojapan.com/high-context-culture-japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_c... You even get some difference in the cultural context between men and women, and urban and rural, and north and south within the United States For an example of a low context culture... Switzerland https://www.worldbusinessculture.com/country-profiles/switzerland/communication-style/ https://www.worldbusinessculture.com/country-profiles/switze... > On the whole, the Swiss believe in plain speaking and place directness before diplomacy. It is expected and respected that people will speak their minds, without feeling the need to couch any uncomfortable messages in a softer way in order to spare the feelings of the audience. The type of coded language used by the Japanese or the British can be misconstrued in Switzerland as prevarication or even deviousness. Better to say what you mean and mean what you say. > As has already been stated, however, this directness of approach should not be confused with confrontation or aggression – it is more the result of a desire to get to the truth or the empirically provable right answer.
least 4y ago
I'm Japanese-American and I behave like this in conversation, just with a lot of mms and ahhs and the occasional, "oh really?" instead of そう、うん、ね？本当？、 etc. My sister does not, really, and I'm not sure why. We were not raised speaking Japanese, though perhaps I picked the habit from my father who also tends to use these nonverbal grunts to communicate. My mother who was hafu did not use them. Not everyone uses it, but I'm pretty certain I've encountered it from others in the US with similar speech behaviors that aren't Japanese. Or perhaps I just never noticed how rare it is.
- CobaltFire 4y ago
  I have an interesting one to go with yours: I've been married to a native Japanese speaker for almost 20 years and this style of speaking translated over to my English. I've found it quite useful. My wife, however, does NOT use this style in English, only in Japanese. My daughter is like my wife; uses it in Japanese but not in English. Both languages are spoken in our house, and media is probably more Japanese than English, as points regarding exposure.
  - least 4y ago
    I wonder if it's a matter of English education? I don't think my grandmother on my father's side was formally taught and my father started learning English only after he emigrated to the US as a young boy. Your wife perhaps learned not to and subsequently your daughter emulates her mother's speech behaviors? I'm not sure if daughters tend to emulate their mother's speech and sons emulate their father's, though, or if it's simply coincidence.
    - CobaltFire 4y ago
      I’m honestly not sure, though the education angle sounds plausible.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  It’s common in Hispanic communities. We actually tend to go further into what’s called “cooperative overlapping”, which I had to spend the first few years of my career learning to avoid.
zedpm 4y ago
This is interesting. I've just started having video meetings with a colleague (not Japanese) who aggressively interjects these words when I'm speaking, to the point that I find it distracting. I'm simply not accustomed to having someone say "mmm hmm" several times during a single sentence, and I find I start to lose my train of thought.
- yamazakiwi 4y ago
  We're opposites. I completely lose track of my thoughts and my mind starts to wonder if I don't interject or use small affirmations throughout a conversation. Half the time I interrupt people is because I literally won't remember 30 seconds later what my thought was because there will be a avalanche of other thoughts during that time. I feel like a conversation that is not collaborative is not a conversation. Unless you're telling a long story in which I generally will try not to interrupt, but one has their limit to being spoken at.
JCharante 4y ago
Honestly all the interjections make me feel like they're being overeager and fake (which was mentioned in the article), and that makes me uncomfortable.
Vrondi 4y ago
This seems very similar to/related to conversational style differences between some cultural groups in the USA, where some groups have constant interjections from the listener side during conversation, other sub cultures here will call it "interrupting" and "being disrespectful". I've known it to cause interpersonal conflict between friends from different ethnic groups/social classes/geographical regions. Interviews with Linguist Deborah Tannen on this topic: https://www.waywordradio.org/tag/conversational-style/ https://www.waywordradio.org/tag/conversational-style/ https://whyy.org/episodes/interrupting-and-the-art-of-conversation/ https://whyy.org/episodes/interrupting-and-the-art-of-conver...
- ComputerGuru 4y ago
  I’m surprised neither of the links have transcripts. PBS usually does.
- rzzzt 4y ago
  I wish I could find the article I've read about this topic -- one example I remember was the "No way!", "Unbelievable!" or "Get outta here!"-kind of interjections which throw unacquainted people off, as they think the listener expresses actual disbelief. (They occasionally do, but people from the region that was brought up use it more liberally.)
ComputerGuru 4y ago
How does this work in a primary school setting? Do students respond with aizuchi as teachers explain? Are they expected to (as in the teacher will call out students not engaging in it)?
afandian 4y ago
I have a Japanese friend, and we have relatively philosophical conversations, talking about ideas. Often when I make a point he acknowledges it with "thank you" which always intrigued me. I always wondered whether this was a literal translation of an aizuchi. Can anyone here shed some light?
- CobaltFire 4y ago
  If I'm understanding your explanation right he says this at the conclusion of a point. If so this is more in line with my experiences in discussions in Japan, acknowledging that you've made a point and thanking you for sharing it with them without necessarily accepting it. Weirdly the best example that comes to mind was when I was buying a car and discussing the price against my needs and why I wouldn't want to pay what they were asking. The salesman would acknowledge the points I made with a "Thank you" and then proceed to argue against them.
  - afandian 4y ago
    Yes, I think it's the same thing. It happens several times in a conversation. What intrigued me was how the translation intensifies the gratitude when read in the British context. Same way that when an American acknowledges my thanks with a "sure" it seems, from my perspective, to be downplayed.
jrmg 4y ago
Does the latency of video conferencing feel more annoying to Japanese speakers? I know that in English, it’s most noticeable when waiting for potential replies or when trying to interject. It seems like it could really mess with aizuchi timing.
- draw_down 4y ago
RicoElectrico 4y ago
So it explains how that man's interjections weren't purely for meme value :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buxQHS6cZuI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buxQHS6cZuI
the-printer 4y ago
As an aspiring sidewalk linguistic I am very stimulating by this post and its comments. For a brief but significant period of my youth I was taught that the “mm-hmms” and “uhh-huh” that characterize the English version of “aizuchi” (a commenter has said that this is called backchanneling in English) was uncouth. That’s stuck with me. What’s striking me the most as I age is that “uhh-huh” and “mm-hmm” often serve as indicators to the speaker to continue with what they’re saying. This is important to me because what I’ve found is that, American English speakers have a habit of putting a tone on many of their speech patterns that could easily be taken in the form of a question (where the last word of the sentence has a slight pitch increase) or is a rhetorical question in and of itself (“Y’know?”). I understand how alternative interjections can communicate engagement with the speaker (“Wow”, “Really?”, etc) but have also observed instances where these interjections in general can suggest a sort of condescension against the speaker from the listener. Language is bonkers. I have a hunch that we are in a very chaotic age of communication dynamics.
cyphar 4y ago
> The blacksmith, being a wise old sage, starts with the first blow saying: "Like this!" Then, the apprentice follows the master's strike with another, saying: "Oh, like this!" ... The term does originally come from blacksmithing, but i disagree that it's from a teacher instructing a student. It comes from the fact that they are both alternating in striking the same thing (to make the analogy to a conversation -- you're both "striking" the same topic). From Wikipedia: > 語源は鍛冶で主導的な鍛冶職と金敷をはさんで向かい側に位置し、ハンマー (槌) を振るう助手 (向かい槌とも) を指す言葉から。 And a language blog[1]: > そこで、師匠が槌（ハンマー）で鉄を打ったあとに、弟子がすぐさま槌（ハンマー）で鉄を打つ様子から、「相槌を打つ」という言葉が生まれました。 In both cases, they are referring to a master and student but they make no mention that it's explicitly being done to teach the student. This explains why the alternating roles in pounding mochi (which is a similar, though much louder[2], collaborative process) is also sometimes likened to 相槌 (tbh I was under the impression it was also called 相槌 but I can only find examples of it being used as an analogy, while the blacksmithing story is the commonly-cited etymology). Also the (linguistic) term for this in English is "back-channeling". To be fair, 相槌 is referred to in conversation more frequently than "back-channeling" is in English but there is a word for it. [1]: https://fof48.com/aizuti-wo-utu/ https://fof48.com/aizuti-wo-utu/ [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGeUE9KK-es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGeUE9KK-es
- foobarian 4y ago
  The Turkish show Diriliş: Ertuğrul had a number of back-and-forth smithing scenes that remind me of this. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqeF8nSiewA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqeF8nSiewA
kiawe_fire 4y ago
I really enjoyed the way this article was written. I took a couple semesters of Japanese and this is the first I've heard of "aizuchi". This article connected several dots for me :)
crazygringo 4y ago
I'm American and I certainly don't do anything like this in normal conversation, but absolutely do it over the phone. I never did it in the era of landlines because there was a level of background noise present that you could tell the connection was working and assume the person was listening. But then in the early 2000's when we switched to cell phones, filtering turned "not talking" into absolute dead silence, no background noise. And that was back when cell connections would drop frequently, and you'd discover you'd been talking for the past 3 minutes to nobody. So not only would I make a conscious effort to interject "yeah", "right", "uh-huh" about every 30 seconds or so of the other person talking, but if I was talking and didn't hear anything for about 60 seconds I'd just ask if they were still there and explain why I was asking -- and then they'd just instinctually start peppering their listening with the same "yeah", "right", "uh-huh" after I'd ask like 3 times. It's totally unnecessary now that so many calls happen over Zoom, but I definitely still do it over cell phones.
- cvoss 4y ago
  (American native speaker) I do this interjection thing* all the time in both technical and social conversations. I still find this desirable over Zoom/Teams calls, even with video on, because for me the purpose isn't so much checking that the digital connection is still live as it is checking that communication and understanding are occurring. It annoys me to no end that the latency and anti-feedback mechanisms in the software swallow these little sounds or mess up their timing or make the primary speaker think they're being interrupted. I've reluctantly had to stop this practice at work as a remote worker. *For what it's worth, the article claims there is no English word for this, but I was taught to call it "backchanneling" in a linguistics course.
  - canadianfella 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- smegsicle 4y ago
theknocker 4y ago
cephei 4y ago
The closest parallel I've found for this in English is the phrase "active listening" which includes this kind of interjection to reassure the speaker that they are heard.
incomingpain 4y ago
I think I've experienced this. I used to nod, acknowledge, repeat what people were saying, etc. People found I was 'talking over them' or 'interrupting them'. So I started simply sitting and listening. Nothing from me out of my mouth. Then people were upset because I wasn't paying attention anymore. Sometimes the mixed cultures of Canada can be confusing.
at_a_remove 4y ago
This reminds me a bit of the Japanese "pointing and calling." With the standard disclaimer that I am sometimes a bit whimsically cruel ... I'm not particularly fond of extraverts and their habit of monopolizing the conversation, breaking in, preemptive interruptions when they pick up that you're about to say something, so I invented a game where I see how long I can keep them talking without them noticing I am not saying anything. No verbal interjections on my part are allowed (no aizuchi), only facial expressions, posture, and hand gestures. It's surprising how often one apparently gets away with it. I've heard, to my amazement (and amusement) that I'm a "good conversationalist."
suction 4y ago
ilaksh 4y ago
Interesting. But notice how they aren't interrupting the other speaker with their own point. Because that is nearly universally poor manners.
anyfoo 4y ago
Being German and having lived for close to a decade in the US now, I feel like in German it's also more common to do these interjections. One more jarring difference though is when giving numbers over the phone (e.g. your account number). In German, it's common to say digits in groups of, say, two to four, and then the listening party repeats those digits, to make sure there was no mistake so far. In the US, the other person on the phone just... sits there. Not saying anything, not even an acknowledging interjection, until you gave them the whole number. And of course sometimes it arrived wrong and you have to dissect it...
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  Oh boy, this hits home. Repeating it back, or at least acknowledging that you wrote/them down would be so helpful. It seems so obvious to me, but rarely notice it in the US. I sometimes wonder why this and using phonetic alphabet aren’t part of standard cs training.
MisterTea 4y ago
Years back I phoned a retired tech who was one of the last few people left who knew how a piece of machinery worked. He had a deep booming voice (A somewhat higher pitched Sam Elliott) and throughout the conversation continually boomed "yeah" in reply to almost everything I said. This mans name was not Japanese but that conversation stuck in my head. I will say this, he was a good listener and immediatly knew the answer to most of my questions. Half of this conversation was on speaker phone and was overheard by a few coworkers who got a kick out the stream of yeah's booming in reply. For the next few weeks my coworkers and I would repeat this during conversations where we would comically interject a deep "yeah" in an attempt to frustrate the person speaking. So I can see how it can be annoying to someone not familiar with the practice and the lack thereof frustrating to someone expecting attention.
x62Bh7948f 4y ago
My Japanese PM from three years ago had a case of extreme aizuchi. He would say hai every three to four of my words, made me think -is he really listening to what I’m saying?
woojoo666 4y ago
A related thread about different conversation styles posted yesterday: "Wait vs Interrupt Culture" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33266372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33266372
iancmceachern 4y ago
I love that analogy that the term Aizuchi is built on. "Alternating strikes of the hammer between the blacksmith and their apprentice" I de-gendered it.
spicyusername 4y ago
This is called backchanneling in English. There's more interesting discussion here[1] and here [2] about it. One clear difference is in the frequency: backchannels are very common in Japanese, fairly common in English, Dutch, Arabic, and Korean, probably somewhat less common in German, and significantly less common in Chinese and Finnish 1: https://www.cs.utep.edu/nigel/bc/ https://www.cs.utep.edu/nigel/bc/ 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backchannel_(linguistics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backchannel_(linguistics)

116 points by karaokeyoga 4y ago

Reminds me of impact of culture on aviation safety: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_saf...

foobarian 4y ago

Forget about the nitty gritty of how it works, I didn't even know this was a thing until today. Lovely article :-)

whoisjuan 4y ago

I have a couple of work relationships with people who don’t provide any verbal or physical cues that they’re listening and following what I’m saying. It makes having conversations with those folks incredibly difficult. It probably doesn’t help that we are having these conversations via Zoom, but I interact with other people via Zoom, and I don’t have this problem.

aliqot 4y ago
Hate to admit I get this sometimes, check if your mic is muted.

jobs_throwaway 4y ago

> For example, sometimes you'll be saying something in English to a Japanese person. They have no idea what you're saying, but because they're such good listeners, they're saying "yes, yes, yes" to everything you say (because that's the translation of hai, right?). At some point, you ask them an important question: "Do you want to join my Starcraft2 team?" They say "yes" not because they want to join your team (they really don't) but because they have no clue what you're saying (and they're good listeners). That explains a lot honestly

ant6n 4y ago
Yes!
antihero 4y ago
That makes you a terrible listener though. Fake listening is worse than just straight up ignoring someone.
- jobs_throwaway 4y ago
  Did you read the article? In Japanese culture, those sorts of exclamations are an integral part of good listening. Its probably pretty hard to just switch that off when you're put in a context with a language barrier
  - hombre_fatal 4y ago
    Well, they aren't wrong. Nonconfrontation + mimed politeness are better descriptions than "good listening" when you bluff your way in a convo you don't understand. Reminds me of the "Place, Japan" meme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan). The first panel can have an American not understanding a foreign language next to a disgusted soyjack, and the second panel has a Japanese guy smiling while he doesn't understand a word next to a "clap clap" retard soyjack screaming "amazing listener!"
  - iherbig 4y ago
    You and antihero are talking about two different kinds of "good listening," though. "Being a good listener" has both a practical and a social component. You are referring to the social component ("in Japanese culture..."). The tenets of social interactions in Japanese culture which have been ingrained in speakers of the language to one extent or another. The performance aspect of the act of listening. antihero is talking about the practical form of "good listening" when they say "that makes you a terrible listener though." That is, what is the function of "listening" in a social interaction? I would hazard a guess that they believe the function of listening is to understand what another person is saying. And by that benchmark, an individual who is not actually reaching any sort of understanding is a "bad listener" irrespective of how successful they are at performing the cultural/social component of the act of listening. There's the additional implication that because signaling you are understanding when you are not leads to misunderstanding (which is the antithesis of the intended function of listening), it makes the listener an even worse quality listener than if they were not performing.

navhc 4y ago

> The fact that there isn't even a proper translation of the word in English, though, just proves that native English speakers aren't as aware of it as Japanese speakers The article seems to make a pretty big point about this being a foreign concept that is difficult to articulate, but in English linguistics we call it "backchanneling". Obviously it won't be a perfect one-to-one translation but it's the same as what is described in the opening.

presentation 4y ago
Honestly as an American living in Japan, it’s nothing like anything I’ve experienced in the USA. My wife will say “Hai” about as many times as her conversation partner stops for a breath, which felt very unnatural to me in English (she’ll replace it with mhm’s in English and it still feels quite aggressively frequent). Maybe the same idea but the execution is a different level.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  I've met a few people in the US who will nod and make some sort of acknowledging sound after every sentence (or more often) you say, so while rare, it's not exactly something I've never come across.
- porknubbins 4y ago
  A lot of hai’s is what one end of a polite Japanese conversations sounds like. In my experience Japanese friends speaking casually say it much less, unless one of them happens to be on some extended monologue. From this perspective one reason English speakers use acknowledgement much less is that conversations coded as formal or polite are much rarer.(think how you respond to a desired job offer, chances are you would be very active in frequently expressing positive assent).
etage3 4y ago
It also appears to be similar to Jakobson phatic function (checking if the channel is working).

cat_plus_plus 4y ago

Japan: learn our language and on top adopt our mannerisms to keep us comfortable US: What WE learn your language? YOU learn ours but don't actually speak it cuz that's cultural appropriation.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
CobaltFire 4y ago
English is de facto required in Middle and High School in Japan, and many parents pay for extra tutoring. Many of the best corporate positions require you have a minimum fluency. In other words: I have no idea where you got that idea.

causi 4y ago

Yes, aizuchi does sound a bit like the deeply concerning goop you left in a Kleenex last time you got a severe case of Bronchitis (hopefully that doesn't happen often), How did we jump from something as intense as blacksmithing to having a conversation, quite possibly over afternoon tea? Is there a Japanese word for completely pointless sentence embellishments that do nothing but slow the article to an agonizing drag?

throwaway284534 4y ago
Ironically, that’s how most email correspondence worked when I lived in Japan. Nearly every message had a paragraph of fluff before getting to the unpleasant details: Dear Customer, It seems that the leaves are once again turning to their Fall colors, and the chill of an autumn breeze is once again upon us… Also we haven’t received your television license fee yet and it would be most appreciated if you could please send us it immediately. Warmest regards, -X
- sgtnoodle 4y ago
  That is a notably pleasant way to be taxed, though. I would appreciate the IRS more if their communications were like that.
  - version_five 4y ago
    Personally I'd rather someone tell me directly what I did wrong and what they want than coat it in fluff, which I consider offensively passive-aggressive. I know that is cultural though, and that in some cultures, e.g Japanese, it may be taken very offensively to just come out and say what you want
    - shagie 4y ago
      That "some cultures" tends to be known as "high context cultures". https://sites.psu.edu/global/2020/04/18/japan-high-context-communication-style/ https://sites.psu.edu/global/2020/04/18/japan-high-context-c... > Just like Saudi Arabia and Spain, Japan is also characterized by high-context communication (R. T. Moran; N. R. Abramson; S. V. Moran, 2014, p. 44). Some of Japan’s traditions, values and norms have supported its high context communication. According to Hofstede’s culture dimension, Japan scores 46 on individualism, indicating that they are more likely to show characteristics of a collectivistic society; such as putting harmony of the group above the expression of individual opinions and people have a strong sense of shame for losing face (Hofstede Insights, n.d.). With this, the Japanese have established an in-direct and non-verbal communication within their inner circle rather than the outside circle of the world. Thus, in Japan, communication goes non-verbally, through subtle gestures, facial expression and voice tones. However, this can be a big challenge for foreigners and westerners that do not understand the Japanese language and communication. https://kosoadojapan.com/high-context-culture-japan https://kosoadojapan.com/high-context-culture-japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_c... You even get some difference in the cultural context between men and women, and urban and rural, and north and south within the United States For an example of a low context culture... Switzerland https://www.worldbusinessculture.com/country-profiles/switzerland/communication-style/ https://www.worldbusinessculture.com/country-profiles/switze... > On the whole, the Swiss believe in plain speaking and place directness before diplomacy. It is expected and respected that people will speak their minds, without feeling the need to couch any uncomfortable messages in a softer way in order to spare the feelings of the audience. The type of coded language used by the Japanese or the British can be misconstrued in Switzerland as prevarication or even deviousness. Better to say what you mean and mean what you say. > As has already been stated, however, this directness of approach should not be confused with confrontation or aggression – it is more the result of a desire to get to the truth or the empirically provable right answer.

least 4y ago

I'm Japanese-American and I behave like this in conversation, just with a lot of mms and ahhs and the occasional, "oh really?" instead of そう、うん、ね？本当？、 etc. My sister does not, really, and I'm not sure why. We were not raised speaking Japanese, though perhaps I picked the habit from my father who also tends to use these nonverbal grunts to communicate. My mother who was hafu did not use them. Not everyone uses it, but I'm pretty certain I've encountered it from others in the US with similar speech behaviors that aren't Japanese. Or perhaps I just never noticed how rare it is.

CobaltFire 4y ago
I have an interesting one to go with yours: I've been married to a native Japanese speaker for almost 20 years and this style of speaking translated over to my English. I've found it quite useful. My wife, however, does NOT use this style in English, only in Japanese. My daughter is like my wife; uses it in Japanese but not in English. Both languages are spoken in our house, and media is probably more Japanese than English, as points regarding exposure.
- least 4y ago
  I wonder if it's a matter of English education? I don't think my grandmother on my father's side was formally taught and my father started learning English only after he emigrated to the US as a young boy. Your wife perhaps learned not to and subsequently your daughter emulates her mother's speech behaviors? I'm not sure if daughters tend to emulate their mother's speech and sons emulate their father's, though, or if it's simply coincidence.
  - CobaltFire 4y ago
    I’m honestly not sure, though the education angle sounds plausible.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
It’s common in Hispanic communities. We actually tend to go further into what’s called “cooperative overlapping”, which I had to spend the first few years of my career learning to avoid.

zedpm 4y ago

This is interesting. I've just started having video meetings with a colleague (not Japanese) who aggressively interjects these words when I'm speaking, to the point that I find it distracting. I'm simply not accustomed to having someone say "mmm hmm" several times during a single sentence, and I find I start to lose my train of thought.

yamazakiwi 4y ago
We're opposites. I completely lose track of my thoughts and my mind starts to wonder if I don't interject or use small affirmations throughout a conversation. Half the time I interrupt people is because I literally won't remember 30 seconds later what my thought was because there will be a avalanche of other thoughts during that time. I feel like a conversation that is not collaborative is not a conversation. Unless you're telling a long story in which I generally will try not to interrupt, but one has their limit to being spoken at.

JCharante 4y ago

Honestly all the interjections make me feel like they're being overeager and fake (which was mentioned in the article), and that makes me uncomfortable.

Vrondi 4y ago

This seems very similar to/related to conversational style differences between some cultural groups in the USA, where some groups have constant interjections from the listener side during conversation, other sub cultures here will call it "interrupting" and "being disrespectful". I've known it to cause interpersonal conflict between friends from different ethnic groups/social classes/geographical regions. Interviews with Linguist Deborah Tannen on this topic: https://www.waywordradio.org/tag/conversational-style/ https://www.waywordradio.org/tag/conversational-style/ https://whyy.org/episodes/interrupting-and-the-art-of-conversation/ https://whyy.org/episodes/interrupting-and-the-art-of-conver...

ComputerGuru 4y ago
I’m surprised neither of the links have transcripts. PBS usually does.
rzzzt 4y ago
I wish I could find the article I've read about this topic -- one example I remember was the "No way!", "Unbelievable!" or "Get outta here!"-kind of interjections which throw unacquainted people off, as they think the listener expresses actual disbelief. (They occasionally do, but people from the region that was brought up use it more liberally.)

ComputerGuru 4y ago

How does this work in a primary school setting? Do students respond with aizuchi as teachers explain? Are they expected to (as in the teacher will call out students not engaging in it)?

afandian 4y ago

I have a Japanese friend, and we have relatively philosophical conversations, talking about ideas. Often when I make a point he acknowledges it with "thank you" which always intrigued me. I always wondered whether this was a literal translation of an aizuchi. Can anyone here shed some light?

CobaltFire 4y ago
If I'm understanding your explanation right he says this at the conclusion of a point. If so this is more in line with my experiences in discussions in Japan, acknowledging that you've made a point and thanking you for sharing it with them without necessarily accepting it. Weirdly the best example that comes to mind was when I was buying a car and discussing the price against my needs and why I wouldn't want to pay what they were asking. The salesman would acknowledge the points I made with a "Thank you" and then proceed to argue against them.
- afandian 4y ago
  Yes, I think it's the same thing. It happens several times in a conversation. What intrigued me was how the translation intensifies the gratitude when read in the British context. Same way that when an American acknowledges my thanks with a "sure" it seems, from my perspective, to be downplayed.

jrmg 4y ago

Does the latency of video conferencing feel more annoying to Japanese speakers? I know that in English, it’s most noticeable when waiting for potential replies or when trying to interject. It seems like it could really mess with aizuchi timing.

draw_down 4y ago

RicoElectrico 4y ago

So it explains how that man's interjections weren't purely for meme value :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buxQHS6cZuI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buxQHS6cZuI

the-printer 4y ago

As an aspiring sidewalk linguistic I am very stimulating by this post and its comments. For a brief but significant period of my youth I was taught that the “mm-hmms” and “uhh-huh” that characterize the English version of “aizuchi” (a commenter has said that this is called backchanneling in English) was uncouth. That’s stuck with me. What’s striking me the most as I age is that “uhh-huh” and “mm-hmm” often serve as indicators to the speaker to continue with what they’re saying. This is important to me because what I’ve found is that, American English speakers have a habit of putting a tone on many of their speech patterns that could easily be taken in the form of a question (where the last word of the sentence has a slight pitch increase) or is a rhetorical question in and of itself (“Y’know?”). I understand how alternative interjections can communicate engagement with the speaker (“Wow”, “Really?”, etc) but have also observed instances where these interjections in general can suggest a sort of condescension against the speaker from the listener. Language is bonkers. I have a hunch that we are in a very chaotic age of communication dynamics.

cyphar 4y ago

> The blacksmith, being a wise old sage, starts with the first blow saying: "Like this!" Then, the apprentice follows the master's strike with another, saying: "Oh, like this!" ... The term does originally come from blacksmithing, but i disagree that it's from a teacher instructing a student. It comes from the fact that they are both alternating in striking the same thing (to make the analogy to a conversation -- you're both "striking" the same topic). From Wikipedia: > 語源は鍛冶で主導的な鍛冶職と金敷をはさんで向かい側に位置し、ハンマー (槌) を振るう助手 (向かい槌とも) を指す言葉から。 And a language blog[1]: > そこで、師匠が槌（ハンマー）で鉄を打ったあとに、弟子がすぐさま槌（ハンマー）で鉄を打つ様子から、「相槌を打つ」という言葉が生まれました。 In both cases, they are referring to a master and student but they make no mention that it's explicitly being done to teach the student. This explains why the alternating roles in pounding mochi (which is a similar, though much louder[2], collaborative process) is also sometimes likened to 相槌 (tbh I was under the impression it was also called 相槌 but I can only find examples of it being used as an analogy, while the blacksmithing story is the commonly-cited etymology). Also the (linguistic) term for this in English is "back-channeling". To be fair, 相槌 is referred to in conversation more frequently than "back-channeling" is in English but there is a word for it. [1]: https://fof48.com/aizuti-wo-utu/ https://fof48.com/aizuti-wo-utu/ [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGeUE9KK-es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGeUE9KK-es

foobarian 4y ago
The Turkish show Diriliş: Ertuğrul had a number of back-and-forth smithing scenes that remind me of this. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqeF8nSiewA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqeF8nSiewA

kiawe_fire 4y ago

I really enjoyed the way this article was written. I took a couple semesters of Japanese and this is the first I've heard of "aizuchi". This article connected several dots for me :)

crazygringo 4y ago

I'm American and I certainly don't do anything like this in normal conversation, but absolutely do it over the phone. I never did it in the era of landlines because there was a level of background noise present that you could tell the connection was working and assume the person was listening. But then in the early 2000's when we switched to cell phones, filtering turned "not talking" into absolute dead silence, no background noise. And that was back when cell connections would drop frequently, and you'd discover you'd been talking for the past 3 minutes to nobody. So not only would I make a conscious effort to interject "yeah", "right", "uh-huh" about every 30 seconds or so of the other person talking, but if I was talking and didn't hear anything for about 60 seconds I'd just ask if they were still there and explain why I was asking -- and then they'd just instinctually start peppering their listening with the same "yeah", "right", "uh-huh" after I'd ask like 3 times. It's totally unnecessary now that so many calls happen over Zoom, but I definitely still do it over cell phones.

cvoss 4y ago
(American native speaker) I do this interjection thing* all the time in both technical and social conversations. I still find this desirable over Zoom/Teams calls, even with video on, because for me the purpose isn't so much checking that the digital connection is still live as it is checking that communication and understanding are occurring. It annoys me to no end that the latency and anti-feedback mechanisms in the software swallow these little sounds or mess up their timing or make the primary speaker think they're being interrupted. I've reluctantly had to stop this practice at work as a remote worker. *For what it's worth, the article claims there is no English word for this, but I was taught to call it "backchanneling" in a linguistics course.
- canadianfella 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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smegsicle 4y ago

theknocker 4y ago

cephei 4y ago

The closest parallel I've found for this in English is the phrase "active listening" which includes this kind of interjection to reassure the speaker that they are heard.

incomingpain 4y ago

I think I've experienced this. I used to nod, acknowledge, repeat what people were saying, etc. People found I was 'talking over them' or 'interrupting them'. So I started simply sitting and listening. Nothing from me out of my mouth. Then people were upset because I wasn't paying attention anymore. Sometimes the mixed cultures of Canada can be confusing.

at_a_remove 4y ago

This reminds me a bit of the Japanese "pointing and calling." With the standard disclaimer that I am sometimes a bit whimsically cruel ... I'm not particularly fond of extraverts and their habit of monopolizing the conversation, breaking in, preemptive interruptions when they pick up that you're about to say something, so I invented a game where I see how long I can keep them talking without them noticing I am not saying anything. No verbal interjections on my part are allowed (no aizuchi), only facial expressions, posture, and hand gestures. It's surprising how often one apparently gets away with it. I've heard, to my amazement (and amusement) that I'm a "good conversationalist."

suction 4y ago

ilaksh 4y ago

Interesting. But notice how they aren't interrupting the other speaker with their own point. Because that is nearly universally poor manners.

anyfoo 4y ago

Being German and having lived for close to a decade in the US now, I feel like in German it's also more common to do these interjections. One more jarring difference though is when giving numbers over the phone (e.g. your account number). In German, it's common to say digits in groups of, say, two to four, and then the listening party repeats those digits, to make sure there was no mistake so far. In the US, the other person on the phone just... sits there. Not saying anything, not even an acknowledging interjection, until you gave them the whole number. And of course sometimes it arrived wrong and you have to dissect it...

YeBanKo 4y ago
Oh boy, this hits home. Repeating it back, or at least acknowledging that you wrote/them down would be so helpful. It seems so obvious to me, but rarely notice it in the US. I sometimes wonder why this and using phonetic alphabet aren’t part of standard cs training.

MisterTea 4y ago

Years back I phoned a retired tech who was one of the last few people left who knew how a piece of machinery worked. He had a deep booming voice (A somewhat higher pitched Sam Elliott) and throughout the conversation continually boomed "yeah" in reply to almost everything I said. This mans name was not Japanese but that conversation stuck in my head. I will say this, he was a good listener and immediatly knew the answer to most of my questions. Half of this conversation was on speaker phone and was overheard by a few coworkers who got a kick out the stream of yeah's booming in reply. For the next few weeks my coworkers and I would repeat this during conversations where we would comically interject a deep "yeah" in an attempt to frustrate the person speaking. So I can see how it can be annoying to someone not familiar with the practice and the lack thereof frustrating to someone expecting attention.

x62Bh7948f 4y ago

My Japanese PM from three years ago had a case of extreme aizuchi. He would say hai every three to four of my words, made me think -is he really listening to what I’m saying?

woojoo666 4y ago

A related thread about different conversation styles posted yesterday: "Wait vs Interrupt Culture" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33266372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33266372

iancmceachern 4y ago

I love that analogy that the term Aizuchi is built on. "Alternating strikes of the hammer between the blacksmith and their apprentice" I de-gendered it.

spicyusername 4y ago

This is called backchanneling in English. There's more interesting discussion here[1] and here [2] about it. One clear difference is in the frequency: backchannels are very common in Japanese, fairly common in English, Dutch, Arabic, and Korean, probably somewhat less common in German, and significantly less common in Chinese and Finnish 1: https://www.cs.utep.edu/nigel/bc/ https://www.cs.utep.edu/nigel/bc/ 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backchannel_(linguistics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backchannel_(linguistics)