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If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remot

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at least one of the 9 hours will be unpaid because this is where people will have lunch. Also we won't reimburse anyone for their traveling expenses or their time spent during the commute). Now read again the arguments you wrote to support this new idea.

adamhp 4y ago
Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living space where they're supposed to be able to retreat from work. They're not allowed to have social in-person contact with any of their peers, but they must login to show activity on their computer every 15 minutes or else be fired. Then along comes the "office". An amazing centralized place where you can take frequent breaks to have social interaction with your peers. You no longer have to wait for everyone to join the Zoom call and turn on their cameras and ask "Can you see my screen?" — you all can just look at the same whiteboard in the same room! Need to get in touch with Bill? Just stroll over to his desk. No need to ping him and wait for a response. We'll even feed you for free, and you can play ping-pong on your breaks! You won't have to bother furnishing your home office with a standing desk and complicated technology setups. We handle all of that for you, and even have in-house IT staff to fix any issues that pop up. It all doesn't sound so bad when you frame it differently (which is what the middle managers try to do). Again, I don't really believe these arguments, I'm just pointing out that the way you framed yours can easily be done by someone with a competing view.
- thunky 4y ago
  > It all doesn't sound so bad when you frame it differently I disagree, it still sounds bad. It sounds like elementary school for adults.
  - mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
    > It sounds like elementary school for adults. I think that sounds pretty amazing.
    - JTbane 4y ago
      Sign me up, so long as there's nap time and recess.
      - ThrowawayR2 4y ago
        My last couple of employers did, in fact, provide nap rooms for employees to use and they saw fairly frequent use.
    - madcow2011 4y ago
      do we get snacks and naps? I'm in.
    - krageon 4y ago
      To people that loved their school days the current office culture is probably already great. To people that did not, the office is just as bad. Except it is worse, because it feels like something you inflict on yourself.
  - jspash 4y ago
    So... a WeWork then?
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      I'm in a WeWork building currently, and I do kinda like it, maybe it's the novelty, but seeing so many other little start-ups and various micro-businesses doing their thing, often in shared spaces, is curiously inspiring and various other perks do make coming into the office attractive enough that I do it more than I technically need to or are even expected to (it helps that it's only a very easy 15-min bike ride away!). Plus for the team I work with, I generally do find it easier to get (and provide) help when in the same physical space, and it's rarely distracting.
yboris 4y ago
I love this style of reasoning. Status quo bias is a severely strong psychological effect on some people in some cases. This is a nice way to "bust the cache" ;) There's a really cool philosophy paper "The reversal test: Eliminating status quo bias in applied ethics" - using a reversal like the one you describe (imagine a world where the opposite was true). But then the authors also do a double-reversal (imagine the world is identical to ours, but there's a policy about to be implemented which will make it into "mirror world" and we have the option to do nothing and let it happen, or act and prevent the reversal). Great thinking tool! https://philpapers.org/rec/BOSTRT https://philpapers.org/rec/BOSTRT full paper PDF: https://nickbostrom.com/ethics/statusquo.pdf https://nickbostrom.com/ethics/statusquo.pdf
blub 4y ago
That’s not at all helpful and in fact it’s confusing. Going to a place of work is the status quo with one of the exceptions being bubbles in IT. Some offices are nice, some not. Some are within walking distance, others are not. You are not locked in to your office unless you work in a literal sweatshop. The lunch hour is a legal right in Europe. It’s your task to check that you have a reasonable commute before accepting a contract. Why should a company care that you picked a job on the other end of the city? Jesus, I can’t believe how spoiled and entitled so many people are. But that will resolve itself once remote developers start getting replaced with cheaper workers which can develop apps or websites just as well.
- munchausen42 4y ago
  >Jesus, I can’t believe how spoiled and entitled so many people are The entitlement is called workers rights. People fought quite hard to get the ones we have right now. E.g. my grandfather was still working 6 days and 48h a week (same country as OP). Back then people also called the workers "entitled" who dared to ask for more than one free day per week. As I see it, this movement will only be succesfully completed once people can rent your skills without also owning your body during that time.

adamhp 4y ago

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living space where they're supposed to be able to retreat from work. They're not allowed to have social in-person contact with any of their peers, but they must login to show activity on their computer every 15 minutes or else be fired. Then along comes the "office". An amazing centralized place where you can take frequent breaks to have social interaction with your peers. You no longer have to wait for everyone to join the Zoom call and turn on their cameras and ask "Can you see my screen?" — you all can just look at the same whiteboard in the same room! Need to get in touch with Bill? Just stroll over to his desk. No need to ping him and wait for a response. We'll even feed you for free, and you can play ping-pong on your breaks! You won't have to bother furnishing your home office with a standing desk and complicated technology setups. We handle all of that for you, and even have in-house IT staff to fix any issues that pop up. It all doesn't sound so bad when you frame it differently (which is what the middle managers try to do). Again, I don't really believe these arguments, I'm just pointing out that the way you framed yours can easily be done by someone with a competing view.

thunky 4y ago
> It all doesn't sound so bad when you frame it differently I disagree, it still sounds bad. It sounds like elementary school for adults.
- mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
  > It sounds like elementary school for adults. I think that sounds pretty amazing.
  - JTbane 4y ago
    Sign me up, so long as there's nap time and recess.
    - ThrowawayR2 4y ago
      My last couple of employers did, in fact, provide nap rooms for employees to use and they saw fairly frequent use.
  - madcow2011 4y ago
    do we get snacks and naps? I'm in.
  - krageon 4y ago
    To people that loved their school days the current office culture is probably already great. To people that did not, the office is just as bad. Except it is worse, because it feels like something you inflict on yourself.
- jspash 4y ago
  So... a WeWork then?
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    I'm in a WeWork building currently, and I do kinda like it, maybe it's the novelty, but seeing so many other little start-ups and various micro-businesses doing their thing, often in shared spaces, is curiously inspiring and various other perks do make coming into the office attractive enough that I do it more than I technically need to or are even expected to (it helps that it's only a very easy 15-min bike ride away!). Plus for the team I work with, I generally do find it easier to get (and provide) help when in the same physical space, and it's rarely distracting.

yboris 4y ago

I love this style of reasoning. Status quo bias is a severely strong psychological effect on some people in some cases. This is a nice way to "bust the cache" ;) There's a really cool philosophy paper "The reversal test: Eliminating status quo bias in applied ethics" - using a reversal like the one you describe (imagine a world where the opposite was true). But then the authors also do a double-reversal (imagine the world is identical to ours, but there's a policy about to be implemented which will make it into "mirror world" and we have the option to do nothing and let it happen, or act and prevent the reversal). Great thinking tool! https://philpapers.org/rec/BOSTRT https://philpapers.org/rec/BOSTRT full paper PDF: https://nickbostrom.com/ethics/statusquo.pdf https://nickbostrom.com/ethics/statusquo.pdf

blub 4y ago

That’s not at all helpful and in fact it’s confusing. Going to a place of work is the status quo with one of the exceptions being bubbles in IT. Some offices are nice, some not. Some are within walking distance, others are not. You are not locked in to your office unless you work in a literal sweatshop. The lunch hour is a legal right in Europe. It’s your task to check that you have a reasonable commute before accepting a contract. Why should a company care that you picked a job on the other end of the city? Jesus, I can’t believe how spoiled and entitled so many people are. But that will resolve itself once remote developers start getting replaced with cheaper workers which can develop apps or websites just as well.

munchausen42 4y ago
>Jesus, I can’t believe how spoiled and entitled so many people are The entitlement is called workers rights. People fought quite hard to get the ones we have right now. E.g. my grandfather was still working 6 days and 48h a week (same country as OP). Back then people also called the workers "entitled" who dared to ask for more than one free day per week. As I see it, this movement will only be succesfully completed once people can rent your skills without also owning your body during that time.