17 ms·

I Work IT in a institution with 290 employees and have had 5 switch to iPad Pro's to "replace" their laptop. I am now 5 for 5 with all asking for their laptop

I Work IT in a institution with 290 employees and have had 5 switch to iPad Pro's to "replace" their laptop. I am now 5 for 5 with all asking for their laptop back. iPadOS is nothing more than iPhoneOS renamed and the device is still too heavily crippled for desktop/laptop replacement. In my mini test case scenario I never said a word..simply the employee asked for iPad Pro.. I just handed it to them... waited... then about 2 weeks later they asked for laptop back. Not sure what Apple's plan here is but they continue to market this to schools and workplaces as a laptop replacement but refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted.

jxdxbx 4y ago
I don't like how Apple is making the iPad more laptop-y. My ideal is to use a normal desktop computer, and an iPad. No laptop. But if I had to pick only one of course it would be a laptop.
steve_adams_86 4y ago
Kids who don’t know better might become accustomed to it and, unless they are power users or interested to become that, they might prefer to scrape by with the iPad. There is pretty strong evidence that people aren’t great at using full fledged operating systems and feel much more comfortable on a slate with a dumbed down UI
- criddell 4y ago
  Most people aren't power users. An iPad is a great device for lots of people. It's my favorite computer to use mostly because of the excellent apps. What you call a dumbed down UI, I call streamlined. It's simple, focused, and fast.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    You’re right. Ironically my “dumbed down” description was a little too dumbed down itself. I agree though, there are cases where a tablet is actually a better tool too. I suppose the problem is that they rarely present us with opportunities or necessity to dig deeper, learn more, and become adept at working with and within the operating system. I could be wrong, too. The truth is I only use an iPad once every couple of weeks for 30 to 90 minutes. My point of view here could be too limited to be accurate, and I’m totally glossing over non-Apple devices.
- jahewson 4y ago
  I would not say that “people aren’t great at using full fledged operating systems” but that fully fledged operating systems aren’t great at accommodating people.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    I think it goes both ways, but I agree, we’re mostly bad at making software work well for human beings. I do think people have individual limitations though, and eventually complexity becomes exceedingly difficult to hide being a well designed user interface. That’s not their fault though, and I worry that we don’t consider this often enough as we race towards higher technology. We’re definitely leaving people behind.
- spideymans 4y ago
  iPads and Chromebooks are rapidly taking over education. Both K-12 and in college. I think the pandemic really accelerated things. A lot more students are using iPads, rather than paper notebooks.
  - roody15 4y ago
    Chromebooks won this battle.. handily.
    - larrywright 4y ago
      My perception is that this is largely based on price. Not necessarily because it’s better.
      - mensetmanusman 4y ago
        Nope, Apple didn’t listen. They had to make a low cost plastic version of the ipad to survive education. The chromebook is far cheaper and far more functional. Kids throw devices like crazy and it turns out that having a glass-only ipad is more expensive (spending $100 on a case that successfully helps it survive is one expensive solution though!). Note that all this is coming from a huge iPad fan that has used it from day 1 (and I am typing this on my ipad pro!).
Terretta 4y ago
On the contrary, I have owned MacBook Pros from the first to the last 17", then again every model since the 16". I also have iPad Pro with magic keyboard and touch pad. I don't travel with the MacBook any more, as I can do anything from the iPad. But it's not just me. I've also been CTO at mega bank and hedge funds where we've rolled these out along side laptops. I've found that after initial objections, folks tend to agree. After a month or two, white collars who are not devs generally have switched to carrying the iPads, not laptops. Then the support costs basically go to zero, which matters a good deal at scale. Users do have to think differently. That's ROUGH. Employees will ask for their old thing back if it changes their workflow, period. (See the book "Who Moved My Cheese?") If they just use it, they generally find out it's fine. Could even be argued the Office / Teams ecosystem is superior. Bonus: Letting employees have TWO screens (MacBook + iPad) also gives them two retina class monitors, portable, fantastic for hoteling or remote work or work from home. Two screens are better than one, and two that go with you are amazing. The new keyboard/cursor sharing while each device runs its own apps, with copy paste and drag drop between them is even cooler. In this model, the iPad Pro can become a Teams or Slack device, for instance, while other work stays on Mac, so you just wander off to a meeting with your collaboration tools intact. Instead of picking up where you left off, you just pick up and go.
- roody15 4y ago
  " I don't travel with the MacBook any more, as I can do anything from the iPad. But it's not just me." Interesting, how long have you been iPad Pro only? At the price point of the iPad pro with a keyboard and touch-pad.. why not just buy a laptop like the MacBook Air? Hauling around an iPad pro with a touchpad.. and an external keyboard seems less convenient than just using something like the MacBook Air. Unless I am missing something here.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    > At the price point of the iPad pro with a keyboard and touch-pad.. why not just buy a laptop like the MacBook Air? 1. cellular + eSIM, missing from Air (WHY, Apple, why?) 2. detaches into perfect touchscreen tablet, Air doesn't 3. Apple Pencil (requires "Paperlike" for texture): https://paperlike.com https://paperlike.com 4. it's a great second screen in either extend desktop or keyboard/mouse mode > Hauling around an iPad pro with a touchpad.. and an external keyboard No, the keyboard is the case, you have no sense of carrying a second thing. In fact, it's a magnetic dock, you USB-C charge through a port in the hinge, iPad pops on and off mag-safe style.
jbellis 4y ago
If they would just allow UTM to run, that would be good enough for me. https://getutm.app/ https://getutm.app/
- avidphantasm 4y ago
  This! They even enabled swap on iPadOS 16. Why oh why can’t I run a VM?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
hellomyguys 4y ago
If they're competing against Chromebooks, they're maybe better actually.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  Because web apps can actually opens up the flexibility of a classical computer system again. For strategic purposes Apples support here is minimal. Still not optimal, but certainly far better for education, not only because of the price and because you don't make yourself dependent on a single manufacturer or at least to a lesser degree. Largest problem is the lack of education of teachers though.
alana314 4y ago
I use the ipad for reading music scores but would never replace it with a laptop. M1 and M2 is overkill for a consumption device that doesn't have a real file system accessible to the user.
tiahura 4y ago
It's not just that the OS is crippled, the apps are as well. Trying to quickly navigate between apps, edit, and copy and paste, is an exercise in frustration.
jahewson 4y ago
> refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted. Is this your opinion or was there any feedback from those 5 users?
derefr 4y ago
> but refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted What would the point of "adding functionality to the OS" be? If they wanted to put macOS on iPads, they'd just put macOS on iPads. My understanding at Apple's strategy here is that they're simultaneously exploring two different GUI paradigms — almost pitting them against one-another to see which wins (or, if you like, making a hedged bet): • macOS, for building "Unix pipeline-like" workflows where you point different programs-as-tools at the same document or take one program's output as another's input. Apple encourages macOS developers to make this kind of app. • iPadOS, for building "all-in-one silo" workflows (think: Photoshop, Garage Band, XCode), where the developer intends to solve fully for a use-case, such that people with that use-case can get by using only their app. In these cases, rather than interacting with other apps, a siloed app will embed whatever other accessory workflows a user might need, either directly (e.g. XCode embedding a terminal console) or through plugins (Photoshop plugins, Garage Band VST support.) The user might use other apps at the same time as this app, but not in a way where the apps are sharing data or interacting in any way; rather merely using each app to "do what it does" — e.g. referencing a design diagram in Miro while implementing that design in XCode, and writing down reminders in some reminders app. (Thus, the iPadOS 16's Stage Manager, which assumes you want several apps on screen at once, but doesn't implement drag-and-drop between apps or any other kind of useful inter-app interaction.) As a user, as long as each user-story you have has been perfectly addressed by some particular siloed iPadOS app, then iPadOS should work for you. (And there are a lot of people whose user-stories have all been perfectly addressed by these siloed iPadOS apps — mostly, people with boring, predictable, traditional workflows. Novelists; illustrators; business executives; possibly salespeople.) However, if your workflow is niche or "constantly reinventing itself" enough that nobody's ever going to make a siloed app specifically for your needs, and so you expect to get things done by throwing files between various different tools all day — then iPadOS is never going to work for you. You need a desktop OS designed around that kind of thing.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Well, MacOS won. Silos don't work, and they especially don't work when Apple controls the means of distribution single-handedly. MacOS has clutched onto a shred of relevance by letting the user install package managers, download software from the web, run software compilers, and so much more. There is not a future where iPadOS "wins" and MacOS is slayed in ritual combat, or something. It's obviously not a contest, and even by your own admission the separation of these OSes is mostly arbitrary. Apple knows they're gimping the iPad, they're just expecting other people to not care. Everyone would be happy if Apple focused more on perfecting the iPad's hardware instead of pushing iPadOS to the brink. An iPad with options to run MacOS, iPadOS or Linux would be the knockout product-of-the-decade for Apple IMO. Judging by the design of Monterey, I think iPad/Mac convergence seems fairly likely.
squeaky-clean 4y ago
Is everything they do web-based? Or did they just not know that it won't run any desktop software and that even if there is an app-store version it's usually cut down to half the features of the desktop version?
bradgessler 4y ago
I used the iPad Pro for about 2 years for nothing but productivity apps and it was overall pretty great. It wasn't without issue though, here's what I ran into: 1. I didn't run any dev tools on the iPad. That's insane. I used a laptop running macOS for that. 2. Google Docs updates would always ship with weird bugs, like if I'm editing a cell in a Google Sheet and hit space, the space wouldn't insert. 3. There's loads of issues with drag and drop in most apps. Dragging and dropping a picture from Photos into a document is the most common flow which works in some apps, but not in others. The plus sides: 1. The built-in cellular connection is amazing. I wish MacBook Airs would ship with built-in cellular. 2. The Apple Pencil (2nd gen) is great if you design software or UX.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Google Docs updates would always ship with weird bugs Is that really an Apple problem? Sounds like Google is just lazy with QA on Apple devices. Did you try Numbers or Excel and have similar problems?
  - cute_boi 4y ago
    Or Safari is not a good browser.
    - yreg 4y ago
      These are native apps.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      I’ve been using Safari almost exclusively for 2 years with no problems. I did prefer Chrome for web page development, but I’m not doing that right now.
- jiveturkey 4y ago
  > 1. The built-in cellular connection is amazing. I wish MacBook Airs would ship with built-in cellular. don't you always have your phone on you? i don't have any issue at all tethering.
qubex 4y ago
I have an executive roll and I used an iPad almost exclusively from probably 2013 until about six months ago. It’s eminently doable.
bee_rider 4y ago
Programming on the iPad was OK, in the sense that Blink Shell is a better ssh client than PuTTY, and I don't want to carry my desktop around with me. Eventually I switched back to a Linux 2-in-1 laptop -- it is nice to be able to run GUI applications locally, but it is nowhere near as good a tablet as an iPad despite whatever tweaking I try...
- cute_boi 4y ago
  actually many people don't use putty and recommending putty in 2022 is not that good. Windows terminal etc can easily do ssh without any hassles.
tshaddox 4y ago
I can't speak to how Apple attempts to make deals with schools and workplaces, but their normal consumer marketing seems to pretty clearly highlight the differences between a MacBook and an iPad. If anything they seem to go out of their way to maintain significant differences in the two operating systems (which, ironically, is also a very popular complaint in tech circles).
martin_drapeau 4y ago
My daughter is 16 and has used an iPad for school for many years. Latptops are foreign to her. Same for her cohort. They are the next generation of adults and have replaced desktops and laptops with iPads and iPhones.
- solaceb 4y ago
  That is scary to me, an entire generation growing up within the walled garden and perceiving only Apple's products as what is possible for computers to accomplish. These computers are confining, as much as their constriction liberates the user in its simplicity, it is a real constriction. To me, that's exactly what the FLOSS movement hoped to avoid, and failed to do so by advocating for a purist f/open stance rather than winning smaller battles with open source at least staying in the war for market share.
  - thepasswordis 4y ago
    Not just the walled garden. iPads are simply less capable as productivity devices than a laptop is. Right now, for instance, I have this page open in a web browser, which has youtube playing in one tab, twitter in another, and this in yet another. I also have an iPhone simulator running behind this browser, a terminal window tail -f ing a logfile, and vscode in another window. All of this stuff is open at the same time. I can hear audio from all of it, access all of it, see all of it, all at the same time. This is not possible on an iPad.
    - rpastuszak 4y ago
      True, but that's not how most people use their devices.
      - mort96 4y ago
        Right, but some people do. And the people who do, used to be people who don't. And those people became people who do because it was possible. It is a bit worrying to me that so many people will be growing up with devices with such a low "skill ceiling"; devices which don't let your interest in technology bloom but rather restrict what can be imagined.
JimDabell 4y ago
> In my mini test case scenario I never said a word..simply the employee asked for iPad Pro.. I just handed it to them... waited... then about 2 weeks later they asked for laptop back. If you work in IT with hundreds of staff members, why would you let them pick their own devices with zero guidance? This seems like a recipe for disaster no matter which product is picked. Do you let them do this with laptops / printers / operating systems / etc.?
- roody15 4y ago
  Nope there are only three computer models to choose from and that we support. The iPad Pro was added as a 4th option based on a higher admin recommendation (not in IT ). However we are now back to supporting 3 models.
  - getcrunk 4y ago
    What are the three laptop models
    - roody15 4y ago
      MacBooK Air 2020 M1. Dell XPS 15/17 iMac 2019/2020 (last of Intel model) - some users still prefer desktop (will run either MacOS or Windows on these)
washadjeffmad 4y ago
We have over 3000 employees with Apple equipment as their primary device, and probably 200 of them are iPad Pro only. They do serve different niches than laptops, but with a keyboard case in an Office 365 environment, they can be full office/productivity replacements for anyone who prioritizes light travel over running local software.
afro88 4y ago
Given how you approached it (zero guidance and support), I'm not surprised all 5 asked for their laptops back.
blinkingled 4y ago
It's a great consumption device though - ever since Google stopped paying attention to the tablet space we have an iPad 9.7 that lays in the kitchen and all my family members only touch it for watching Netflix or YouTube. Even for browsing it feels very slow compared to Surface tablet or even Firefox on M1 MBP now a days.
Spooky23 4y ago
It depends on the user. Execs and task oriented workers are great iPad use cases. In a global org I’m familiar with, they run about 15k iPads, about 5-10% of the IT engaged headcount. Senior execs in large orgs in particular are ideal in the iPad environment. For schools, I think the iPad sweet spot is grade K-4 for dedicated devices; 4-8 is Chrome and 8+ can be Mac/Chrome/PC. For shared or purpose dedicated devices, iPads fit every level. Lots of other use case are limited by legacy or enterprise software. Police patrol car, medical point of service and point of sale are examples of use cases where iPads would be the ideal solution, but for the existing software.
cush 4y ago
I don't think Apple is marketing it as heavily as you think at replacing Workplace laptops, but moreso consumer laptops. iPad is a delightfully simple device for consuming any kind of media, editing photos and videos, light to medium gaming, and doing little creative things.
Lio 4y ago
What kills it for me are the apps where you can't copy a single word. e.g. Apple's own Messages app, you're forced to copy the whole message. Same for the spell checker. For some reason I have ridiculous trouble triggering it in certain apps. I can see the mistake underlined in red but I really struggle to get trigger the correction popup instead of the "copy, lookup, etc" popup. Maybe it's just me but I don't think I could consider an iPad as laptop replacements without some basic changes to iPadOS.
- thiht 4y ago
  > apps where you can't copy a single word This one is ridiculous. On Reddit I always want to quote part of a message or copy a phrase to translate it, and it’s literally impossible to do. You have to copy the whole message, paste it in a text editor or in Notes, and finally copy what you actually wanted to copy. This should be solved at the OS level.
  - hedora 4y ago
    > This should be solved at the OS level. It is. Take a screenshot, then select the text in the screenshot.
wilg 4y ago
I don't even understand the advantage of an iPad for non-drawing work. It's just a worse laptop with a too-small keyboard that can fall off and a square screen so it's not good to watch video on and an OS that doesn't do anything well. But Mac laptops are amazing, run all the same software, and don't have any of these problems.
- themagician 4y ago
  I can't adapt to the workflow on an iPad either, and I have tried. I have really tried. However, I have seen other that have. To them the iPad is easy and macOS is overly complicated. I am not sure if general computing is changing or there are now two branches, but I have watched other people do things on iPads that I consider impossible. Even simple things, like working in Excel, I find challenging on an iPad. But when I watch someone else who sort of "grew up" on iOS work in Excel on an iPad they are like some kind of wizard. I have found myself more than once now asking someone, "How did you do that?" feelsbadman.jpg I think a lot comes down to muscle memory and shortcuts. While I know many/most of the shortcuts on iPadOS they are not automatic for me the way they are on macOS. I often have to think, "Wait… how do I do this on the iPad again," for even simple things. I even find drawing applications unintuitive. In the Adobe suite everything is explicit. In Procreate everything is unlabeled. This is even true in consumer applications, like Facebook vs Snapchat. Pinch here, tap there. Swipe from one of the four sides to reveal some function that is completely hidden. But for some people this is intuitive. There is an additional layer (or two) of UI abstraction in iOS/iPadOS that I have not internalized. There definitely ARE some things you can't do on an iPad, but that list is actually shorter than you might think. There are a lot of things that you can do, they are just done differently… and in a way that, at least for me, seems to take a lot more work. But for others they are like, "Eww, why do I have to look for an icon and move the cursor over to it when I can just…" and then they proceed to input what is essentially sign language into the screen while holding down a modifier key.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  I have an iPad Pro M1 11" with the Magic Keyboard. It doesn't fall off or detach unexpectedly at all. And the keyboard size is close enough to "normal" that I don't notice for normal typing. The only thing I miss is a dedicated ESC key. All that said, it only replaced my personal laptop. I continue to use a 13" MBP at work.
miiiiiike 4y ago
I have my iPad Pro+Magic Keyboard with me 24/7. I wish I could code on it but that's it. For everything else it's perfect.
barbariangrunge 4y ago
My use case for this would be fairly simple: future proofing, to make it unlikely to need a new tablet for 10 years
micromacrofoot 4y ago
Makes a lot more sense if you consider the idea that "pro" has become a luxury designation rather than the audience they're marketing towards.
jeremy_wiebe 4y ago
Without a clear description of what these employees were using their iPads for, it's impossible for anyone else to use this info to determine if their scenario fits yours. Your ability to use iPad full-time depends heavily on the type of work you do.
NoPicklez 4y ago
I can attest to this, I worked in IT back in 2011 at a school where teachers loved the idea of iPad's over their clunky laptops. However, in time, they all needed their laptops back and either gave the iPad back or worked 50/50 across both devices. I have no doubt that today the iPad is more useful for students and teachers, but if you don't have a defined workflow that easily allows for the use of iPads teachers won't use them. We're all too familiar with the way in which Windows works and it integrates well with the networks companies use.
baby 4y ago
I personally carry both my ipad pro and macbook pro all the time. They’re just both so useful.
lucasyvas 4y ago
It honestly just needs virtualization. They don't care about evolving the product because they are mortified of cannibalizing a revenue stream in an official way. Only nerds and IT would bother with virtualization and they'd net a new sale. I've been eyeing an iPad Pro, but it's just a colossal waste as it trends strongly toward only consumption, which is frankly a poor purchase.
senectus1 4y ago
ipads (like phones) are appliances... designed for consuming. Much like a microwave or a fridge. they're designed for very specific scenarios. sure you could make it do other things... but it will not be very effective. Laptops are swiss-army knives. you can create/consume/compute and they're pretty effective at all those things.
ngcc_hk 4y ago
Either-or obviously desktop. But why either-or not both and an iphone as well. The form factor is so different. And if you develop with lots of internet and book/pdf to reference. You can ask me to choose TV or ipad or even in reading novel kindle or … obviously not job setting but it is just different tools.
KolenCh 4y ago
By design it is never going to be able to replace a "laptop" running desktop OS. If the workplace is not designed to work with iPad, then I doubt anyone really can replace even a MacBook with iPad. Your "mini test" is invalid because they are allowed to choose, ie intermixing all sort of OSes together. In that case it is very likely any workflow the iPad excels at are not used in the workplace, and vice versa that anyone else' workflow is really traditional (as simple as depending on the file system a lot) that doesn't play well with iPad. When your mini test doesn't agree with how successful it is (for business to deploy iPad), it just means your mini test is nowhere near the norm. Eg you mentioned school, that's the best case for the iPad to shine, because everyone are mandated to use iPad, and the IT would have already figure out how to perform all needed tasks. (And bonus is that the students are a blank state with no prior bias on how to do a certain thing.)

jxdxbx 4y ago

I don't like how Apple is making the iPad more laptop-y. My ideal is to use a normal desktop computer, and an iPad. No laptop. But if I had to pick only one of course it would be a laptop.

steve_adams_86 4y ago

Kids who don’t know better might become accustomed to it and, unless they are power users or interested to become that, they might prefer to scrape by with the iPad. There is pretty strong evidence that people aren’t great at using full fledged operating systems and feel much more comfortable on a slate with a dumbed down UI

criddell 4y ago
Most people aren't power users. An iPad is a great device for lots of people. It's my favorite computer to use mostly because of the excellent apps. What you call a dumbed down UI, I call streamlined. It's simple, focused, and fast.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  You’re right. Ironically my “dumbed down” description was a little too dumbed down itself. I agree though, there are cases where a tablet is actually a better tool too. I suppose the problem is that they rarely present us with opportunities or necessity to dig deeper, learn more, and become adept at working with and within the operating system. I could be wrong, too. The truth is I only use an iPad once every couple of weeks for 30 to 90 minutes. My point of view here could be too limited to be accurate, and I’m totally glossing over non-Apple devices.
jahewson 4y ago
I would not say that “people aren’t great at using full fledged operating systems” but that fully fledged operating systems aren’t great at accommodating people.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  I think it goes both ways, but I agree, we’re mostly bad at making software work well for human beings. I do think people have individual limitations though, and eventually complexity becomes exceedingly difficult to hide being a well designed user interface. That’s not their fault though, and I worry that we don’t consider this often enough as we race towards higher technology. We’re definitely leaving people behind.
spideymans 4y ago
iPads and Chromebooks are rapidly taking over education. Both K-12 and in college. I think the pandemic really accelerated things. A lot more students are using iPads, rather than paper notebooks.
- roody15 4y ago
  Chromebooks won this battle.. handily.
  - larrywright 4y ago
    My perception is that this is largely based on price. Not necessarily because it’s better.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      Nope, Apple didn’t listen. They had to make a low cost plastic version of the ipad to survive education. The chromebook is far cheaper and far more functional. Kids throw devices like crazy and it turns out that having a glass-only ipad is more expensive (spending $100 on a case that successfully helps it survive is one expensive solution though!). Note that all this is coming from a huge iPad fan that has used it from day 1 (and I am typing this on my ipad pro!).

Terretta 4y ago

On the contrary, I have owned MacBook Pros from the first to the last 17", then again every model since the 16". I also have iPad Pro with magic keyboard and touch pad. I don't travel with the MacBook any more, as I can do anything from the iPad. But it's not just me. I've also been CTO at mega bank and hedge funds where we've rolled these out along side laptops. I've found that after initial objections, folks tend to agree. After a month or two, white collars who are not devs generally have switched to carrying the iPads, not laptops. Then the support costs basically go to zero, which matters a good deal at scale. Users do have to think differently. That's ROUGH. Employees will ask for their old thing back if it changes their workflow, period. (See the book "Who Moved My Cheese?") If they just use it, they generally find out it's fine. Could even be argued the Office / Teams ecosystem is superior. Bonus: Letting employees have TWO screens (MacBook + iPad) also gives them two retina class monitors, portable, fantastic for hoteling or remote work or work from home. Two screens are better than one, and two that go with you are amazing. The new keyboard/cursor sharing while each device runs its own apps, with copy paste and drag drop between them is even cooler. In this model, the iPad Pro can become a Teams or Slack device, for instance, while other work stays on Mac, so you just wander off to a meeting with your collaboration tools intact. Instead of picking up where you left off, you just pick up and go.

roody15 4y ago
" I don't travel with the MacBook any more, as I can do anything from the iPad. But it's not just me." Interesting, how long have you been iPad Pro only? At the price point of the iPad pro with a keyboard and touch-pad.. why not just buy a laptop like the MacBook Air? Hauling around an iPad pro with a touchpad.. and an external keyboard seems less convenient than just using something like the MacBook Air. Unless I am missing something here.
- Terretta 4y ago
  > At the price point of the iPad pro with a keyboard and touch-pad.. why not just buy a laptop like the MacBook Air? 1. cellular + eSIM, missing from Air (WHY, Apple, why?) 2. detaches into perfect touchscreen tablet, Air doesn't 3. Apple Pencil (requires "Paperlike" for texture): https://paperlike.com https://paperlike.com 4. it's a great second screen in either extend desktop or keyboard/mouse mode > Hauling around an iPad pro with a touchpad.. and an external keyboard No, the keyboard is the case, you have no sense of carrying a second thing. In fact, it's a magnetic dock, you USB-C charge through a port in the hinge, iPad pops on and off mag-safe style.

jbellis 4y ago

If they would just allow UTM to run, that would be good enough for me. https://getutm.app/ https://getutm.app/

avidphantasm 4y ago
This! They even enabled swap on iPadOS 16. Why oh why can’t I run a VM?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

hellomyguys 4y ago

If they're competing against Chromebooks, they're maybe better actually.

raxxorraxor 4y ago
Because web apps can actually opens up the flexibility of a classical computer system again. For strategic purposes Apples support here is minimal. Still not optimal, but certainly far better for education, not only because of the price and because you don't make yourself dependent on a single manufacturer or at least to a lesser degree. Largest problem is the lack of education of teachers though.

alana314 4y ago

I use the ipad for reading music scores but would never replace it with a laptop. M1 and M2 is overkill for a consumption device that doesn't have a real file system accessible to the user.

tiahura 4y ago

It's not just that the OS is crippled, the apps are as well. Trying to quickly navigate between apps, edit, and copy and paste, is an exercise in frustration.

jahewson 4y ago

> refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted. Is this your opinion or was there any feedback from those 5 users?

derefr 4y ago

> but refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted What would the point of "adding functionality to the OS" be? If they wanted to put macOS on iPads, they'd just put macOS on iPads. My understanding at Apple's strategy here is that they're simultaneously exploring two different GUI paradigms — almost pitting them against one-another to see which wins (or, if you like, making a hedged bet): • macOS, for building "Unix pipeline-like" workflows where you point different programs-as-tools at the same document or take one program's output as another's input. Apple encourages macOS developers to make this kind of app. • iPadOS, for building "all-in-one silo" workflows (think: Photoshop, Garage Band, XCode), where the developer intends to solve fully for a use-case, such that people with that use-case can get by using only their app. In these cases, rather than interacting with other apps, a siloed app will embed whatever other accessory workflows a user might need, either directly (e.g. XCode embedding a terminal console) or through plugins (Photoshop plugins, Garage Band VST support.) The user might use other apps at the same time as this app, but not in a way where the apps are sharing data or interacting in any way; rather merely using each app to "do what it does" — e.g. referencing a design diagram in Miro while implementing that design in XCode, and writing down reminders in some reminders app. (Thus, the iPadOS 16's Stage Manager, which assumes you want several apps on screen at once, but doesn't implement drag-and-drop between apps or any other kind of useful inter-app interaction.) As a user, as long as each user-story you have has been perfectly addressed by some particular siloed iPadOS app, then iPadOS should work for you. (And there are a lot of people whose user-stories have all been perfectly addressed by these siloed iPadOS apps — mostly, people with boring, predictable, traditional workflows. Novelists; illustrators; business executives; possibly salespeople.) However, if your workflow is niche or "constantly reinventing itself" enough that nobody's ever going to make a siloed app specifically for your needs, and so you expect to get things done by throwing files between various different tools all day — then iPadOS is never going to work for you. You need a desktop OS designed around that kind of thing.

smoldesu 4y ago
Well, MacOS won. Silos don't work, and they especially don't work when Apple controls the means of distribution single-handedly. MacOS has clutched onto a shred of relevance by letting the user install package managers, download software from the web, run software compilers, and so much more. There is not a future where iPadOS "wins" and MacOS is slayed in ritual combat, or something. It's obviously not a contest, and even by your own admission the separation of these OSes is mostly arbitrary. Apple knows they're gimping the iPad, they're just expecting other people to not care. Everyone would be happy if Apple focused more on perfecting the iPad's hardware instead of pushing iPadOS to the brink. An iPad with options to run MacOS, iPadOS or Linux would be the knockout product-of-the-decade for Apple IMO. Judging by the design of Monterey, I think iPad/Mac convergence seems fairly likely.

squeaky-clean 4y ago

Is everything they do web-based? Or did they just not know that it won't run any desktop software and that even if there is an app-store version it's usually cut down to half the features of the desktop version?

bradgessler 4y ago

I used the iPad Pro for about 2 years for nothing but productivity apps and it was overall pretty great. It wasn't without issue though, here's what I ran into: 1. I didn't run any dev tools on the iPad. That's insane. I used a laptop running macOS for that. 2. Google Docs updates would always ship with weird bugs, like if I'm editing a cell in a Google Sheet and hit space, the space wouldn't insert. 3. There's loads of issues with drag and drop in most apps. Dragging and dropping a picture from Photos into a document is the most common flow which works in some apps, but not in others. The plus sides: 1. The built-in cellular connection is amazing. I wish MacBook Airs would ship with built-in cellular. 2. The Apple Pencil (2nd gen) is great if you design software or UX.

alistairSH 4y ago
Google Docs updates would always ship with weird bugs Is that really an Apple problem? Sounds like Google is just lazy with QA on Apple devices. Did you try Numbers or Excel and have similar problems?
- cute_boi 4y ago
  Or Safari is not a good browser.
  - yreg 4y ago
    These are native apps.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    I’ve been using Safari almost exclusively for 2 years with no problems. I did prefer Chrome for web page development, but I’m not doing that right now.
jiveturkey 4y ago
> 1. The built-in cellular connection is amazing. I wish MacBook Airs would ship with built-in cellular. don't you always have your phone on you? i don't have any issue at all tethering.

qubex 4y ago

I have an executive roll and I used an iPad almost exclusively from probably 2013 until about six months ago. It’s eminently doable.

bee_rider 4y ago

Programming on the iPad was OK, in the sense that Blink Shell is a better ssh client than PuTTY, and I don't want to carry my desktop around with me. Eventually I switched back to a Linux 2-in-1 laptop -- it is nice to be able to run GUI applications locally, but it is nowhere near as good a tablet as an iPad despite whatever tweaking I try...

cute_boi 4y ago
actually many people don't use putty and recommending putty in 2022 is not that good. Windows terminal etc can easily do ssh without any hassles.

tshaddox 4y ago

I can't speak to how Apple attempts to make deals with schools and workplaces, but their normal consumer marketing seems to pretty clearly highlight the differences between a MacBook and an iPad. If anything they seem to go out of their way to maintain significant differences in the two operating systems (which, ironically, is also a very popular complaint in tech circles).

martin_drapeau 4y ago

My daughter is 16 and has used an iPad for school for many years. Latptops are foreign to her. Same for her cohort. They are the next generation of adults and have replaced desktops and laptops with iPads and iPhones.

solaceb 4y ago
That is scary to me, an entire generation growing up within the walled garden and perceiving only Apple's products as what is possible for computers to accomplish. These computers are confining, as much as their constriction liberates the user in its simplicity, it is a real constriction. To me, that's exactly what the FLOSS movement hoped to avoid, and failed to do so by advocating for a purist f/open stance rather than winning smaller battles with open source at least staying in the war for market share.
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  Not just the walled garden. iPads are simply less capable as productivity devices than a laptop is. Right now, for instance, I have this page open in a web browser, which has youtube playing in one tab, twitter in another, and this in yet another. I also have an iPhone simulator running behind this browser, a terminal window tail -f ing a logfile, and vscode in another window. All of this stuff is open at the same time. I can hear audio from all of it, access all of it, see all of it, all at the same time. This is not possible on an iPad.
  - rpastuszak 4y ago
    True, but that's not how most people use their devices.
    - mort96 4y ago
      Right, but some people do. And the people who do, used to be people who don't. And those people became people who do because it was possible. It is a bit worrying to me that so many people will be growing up with devices with such a low "skill ceiling"; devices which don't let your interest in technology bloom but rather restrict what can be imagined.

JimDabell 4y ago

> In my mini test case scenario I never said a word..simply the employee asked for iPad Pro.. I just handed it to them... waited... then about 2 weeks later they asked for laptop back. If you work in IT with hundreds of staff members, why would you let them pick their own devices with zero guidance? This seems like a recipe for disaster no matter which product is picked. Do you let them do this with laptops / printers / operating systems / etc.?

roody15 4y ago
Nope there are only three computer models to choose from and that we support. The iPad Pro was added as a 4th option based on a higher admin recommendation (not in IT ). However we are now back to supporting 3 models.
- getcrunk 4y ago
  What are the three laptop models
  - roody15 4y ago
    MacBooK Air 2020 M1. Dell XPS 15/17 iMac 2019/2020 (last of Intel model) - some users still prefer desktop (will run either MacOS or Windows on these)

washadjeffmad 4y ago

We have over 3000 employees with Apple equipment as their primary device, and probably 200 of them are iPad Pro only. They do serve different niches than laptops, but with a keyboard case in an Office 365 environment, they can be full office/productivity replacements for anyone who prioritizes light travel over running local software.

afro88 4y ago

Given how you approached it (zero guidance and support), I'm not surprised all 5 asked for their laptops back.

blinkingled 4y ago

It's a great consumption device though - ever since Google stopped paying attention to the tablet space we have an iPad 9.7 that lays in the kitchen and all my family members only touch it for watching Netflix or YouTube. Even for browsing it feels very slow compared to Surface tablet or even Firefox on M1 MBP now a days.

Spooky23 4y ago

It depends on the user. Execs and task oriented workers are great iPad use cases. In a global org I’m familiar with, they run about 15k iPads, about 5-10% of the IT engaged headcount. Senior execs in large orgs in particular are ideal in the iPad environment. For schools, I think the iPad sweet spot is grade K-4 for dedicated devices; 4-8 is Chrome and 8+ can be Mac/Chrome/PC. For shared or purpose dedicated devices, iPads fit every level. Lots of other use case are limited by legacy or enterprise software. Police patrol car, medical point of service and point of sale are examples of use cases where iPads would be the ideal solution, but for the existing software.

cush 4y ago

I don't think Apple is marketing it as heavily as you think at replacing Workplace laptops, but moreso consumer laptops. iPad is a delightfully simple device for consuming any kind of media, editing photos and videos, light to medium gaming, and doing little creative things.

Lio 4y ago

What kills it for me are the apps where you can't copy a single word. e.g. Apple's own Messages app, you're forced to copy the whole message. Same for the spell checker. For some reason I have ridiculous trouble triggering it in certain apps. I can see the mistake underlined in red but I really struggle to get trigger the correction popup instead of the "copy, lookup, etc" popup. Maybe it's just me but I don't think I could consider an iPad as laptop replacements without some basic changes to iPadOS.

thiht 4y ago
> apps where you can't copy a single word This one is ridiculous. On Reddit I always want to quote part of a message or copy a phrase to translate it, and it’s literally impossible to do. You have to copy the whole message, paste it in a text editor or in Notes, and finally copy what you actually wanted to copy. This should be solved at the OS level.
- hedora 4y ago
  > This should be solved at the OS level. It is. Take a screenshot, then select the text in the screenshot.

wilg 4y ago

I don't even understand the advantage of an iPad for non-drawing work. It's just a worse laptop with a too-small keyboard that can fall off and a square screen so it's not good to watch video on and an OS that doesn't do anything well. But Mac laptops are amazing, run all the same software, and don't have any of these problems.

themagician 4y ago
I can't adapt to the workflow on an iPad either, and I have tried. I have really tried. However, I have seen other that have. To them the iPad is easy and macOS is overly complicated. I am not sure if general computing is changing or there are now two branches, but I have watched other people do things on iPads that I consider impossible. Even simple things, like working in Excel, I find challenging on an iPad. But when I watch someone else who sort of "grew up" on iOS work in Excel on an iPad they are like some kind of wizard. I have found myself more than once now asking someone, "How did you do that?" feelsbadman.jpg I think a lot comes down to muscle memory and shortcuts. While I know many/most of the shortcuts on iPadOS they are not automatic for me the way they are on macOS. I often have to think, "Wait… how do I do this on the iPad again," for even simple things. I even find drawing applications unintuitive. In the Adobe suite everything is explicit. In Procreate everything is unlabeled. This is even true in consumer applications, like Facebook vs Snapchat. Pinch here, tap there. Swipe from one of the four sides to reveal some function that is completely hidden. But for some people this is intuitive. There is an additional layer (or two) of UI abstraction in iOS/iPadOS that I have not internalized. There definitely ARE some things you can't do on an iPad, but that list is actually shorter than you might think. There are a lot of things that you can do, they are just done differently… and in a way that, at least for me, seems to take a lot more work. But for others they are like, "Eww, why do I have to look for an icon and move the cursor over to it when I can just…" and then they proceed to input what is essentially sign language into the screen while holding down a modifier key.
alistairSH 4y ago
I have an iPad Pro M1 11" with the Magic Keyboard. It doesn't fall off or detach unexpectedly at all. And the keyboard size is close enough to "normal" that I don't notice for normal typing. The only thing I miss is a dedicated ESC key. All that said, it only replaced my personal laptop. I continue to use a 13" MBP at work.

miiiiiike 4y ago

I have my iPad Pro+Magic Keyboard with me 24/7. I wish I could code on it but that's it. For everything else it's perfect.

barbariangrunge 4y ago

My use case for this would be fairly simple: future proofing, to make it unlikely to need a new tablet for 10 years

micromacrofoot 4y ago

Makes a lot more sense if you consider the idea that "pro" has become a luxury designation rather than the audience they're marketing towards.

jeremy_wiebe 4y ago

Without a clear description of what these employees were using their iPads for, it's impossible for anyone else to use this info to determine if their scenario fits yours. Your ability to use iPad full-time depends heavily on the type of work you do.

NoPicklez 4y ago

I can attest to this, I worked in IT back in 2011 at a school where teachers loved the idea of iPad's over their clunky laptops. However, in time, they all needed their laptops back and either gave the iPad back or worked 50/50 across both devices. I have no doubt that today the iPad is more useful for students and teachers, but if you don't have a defined workflow that easily allows for the use of iPads teachers won't use them. We're all too familiar with the way in which Windows works and it integrates well with the networks companies use.

baby 4y ago

I personally carry both my ipad pro and macbook pro all the time. They’re just both so useful.

lucasyvas 4y ago

It honestly just needs virtualization. They don't care about evolving the product because they are mortified of cannibalizing a revenue stream in an official way. Only nerds and IT would bother with virtualization and they'd net a new sale. I've been eyeing an iPad Pro, but it's just a colossal waste as it trends strongly toward only consumption, which is frankly a poor purchase.

senectus1 4y ago

ipads (like phones) are appliances... designed for consuming. Much like a microwave or a fridge. they're designed for very specific scenarios. sure you could make it do other things... but it will not be very effective. Laptops are swiss-army knives. you can create/consume/compute and they're pretty effective at all those things.

ngcc_hk 4y ago

Either-or obviously desktop. But why either-or not both and an iphone as well. The form factor is so different. And if you develop with lots of internet and book/pdf to reference. You can ask me to choose TV or ipad or even in reading novel kindle or … obviously not job setting but it is just different tools.

KolenCh 4y ago

By design it is never going to be able to replace a "laptop" running desktop OS. If the workplace is not designed to work with iPad, then I doubt anyone really can replace even a MacBook with iPad. Your "mini test" is invalid because they are allowed to choose, ie intermixing all sort of OSes together. In that case it is very likely any workflow the iPad excels at are not used in the workplace, and vice versa that anyone else' workflow is really traditional (as simple as depending on the file system a lot) that doesn't play well with iPad. When your mini test doesn't agree with how successful it is (for business to deploy iPad), it just means your mini test is nowhere near the norm. Eg you mentioned school, that's the best case for the iPad to shine, because everyone are mandated to use iPad, and the IT would have already figure out how to perform all needed tasks. (And bonus is that the students are a blank state with no prior bias on how to do a certain thing.)