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Fentanyl came in from China for years before they moved the synthesis to Mexico. I was active in online drug forums before, during, and shortly after Silk Road.

Fentanyl came in from China for years before they moved the synthesis to Mexico. I was active in online drug forums before, during, and shortly after Silk Road. So many drugs came from China and their government didn't care. It would not surprise me if they encouraged it not just because of monetary gain, but because of political objectives. I have believed since 2010 that it was a form of warfare that they could plausibly deny. So much fentanyl was coming in for so cheap, it was crazy. I don't know anything about what's going on now, but they were practically giving it away back then

Scoundreller 4y ago
It’s just easy to synthesize and potent so it’s easy to smuggle. Manufacturers get pitted against each other and end up selling for cost + markup and a small risk premium. Overall, drugs are cheap, it’s the regulations that make it expensive/difficult to acquire. Easy to interdict heroin or opium from Afghanistan, not so easy for potent synthetics coming from an export powerhouse. Safety for the consumer isn’t a concern for the regulators so you end up with this situation.
ttul 4y ago
Nowadays, the precursors go to Mexico, essentially in unchecked volumes. A widespread network of tiny independent producers then manufacture a kilo at a time in little shacks all over the place, selling their stock to the cartels, who handle transportation to the US market.
hayst4ck 4y ago
I was pretty skeptical about a lot of the negative press about China for a long time. Then the Chinese colonial takeover over Hong Kong went from soft to hard in 2019, during which they leveraged organize crime to try to quell dissent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)#Chinese_government_connections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)#Chines... This made it very clear to me that organized crime is a wing of the Chinese government. Before I probably wouldn't have believed a post like this, but now it seems enough in alignment with all parties interests that I find it more likely to be true than false.
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  The US has done this as well.[0] Though I think it’s fair to distinguish between using organised crime during times of war against an enemies military vs using organised crime during times of peace to grind down a competing nations civilian population. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sft...
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    I would imagine in the US the best parallels or examples would involve corporations or para-government entities (like political parties) leveraging organized crime to fight labor movements or civil rights movements. I would be extremely surprised if there weren't examples, but I don't know them off the top of my head.
  - jimt1234 4y ago
    The FBI has used organized crime to help achieve its own goals. One example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.international https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.internatio...
  - xkcd-sucks 4y ago
    Tangentially related, this reminded me of a documentary film on mass killings in Indonesia titled "The Act of Killing": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing. It is an excellent film. Basically it comprises interviews of gangsters who were recruited by the government to conduct mass executions of undesirable people, and the subjects describe some reasons for which the work was tasked to organized crime rather than to official government employees.
    - hyuuu 4y ago
      these undesirable people are people who look like me, indonesian of chinese descent. They way they told their murderous stories, they didnt even consider us as humans, not even on par with animals.
readthenotes1 4y ago
And they make video games to consume endless hours of Western productivity
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  I think this point is underrated (albeit a bit unrelated). If China is looking to abuse the world in the way it has been abused, and to cause humiliation to others the way it has been humiliated, then getting the nations workforce to spend their time sitting in front of a computer doing an almost entirely unproductive activity for hours on end, creating a dopamine high that most other activities and certainly hard acitivities like studying can't compete with, then video games share an aweful lot of properties with opium. Real money for digital currency or goods is also something that is ridiculous enough it should probably be heavily regulated.
  - h4n1 4y ago
    And Instagram and Twitter and all the other domestically-produced mind-addling time-vampires? I understand looking for "real motives" but getting people addicted to stupid things is a very common business model everywhere under our economic model.
- mc32 4y ago
  It's a double-edged sword. They also lose productivity due to games addiction by their own pop.
  - wmf 4y ago
    Which is why they banned online gaming for young people except for certain hours.
    - elefanten 4y ago
      Not going very well so far. And, while this is far from a prediction, it'd be hilarious if an effective ban quickly caused major social unrest. Video games are (as) insanely popular in China (as everywhere else).
db1234 4y ago
Chinese seem to have learned a thing or two about drug trade from their former adversary, the British. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Always felt like karma to me even if it was not intentional. Surprised this is not talked about more.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    Because of endemic "do as I say, not as I do" / hypocrisy. Each nation can dig out a ton of dirt on the other when needed and would give no rats ass about the fact that it did/does/will do the same thing.
dirtyid 4y ago
>political objectives Perhaps, but it's mostly: >government didn't care There's no reason to dedicated domestic PRC resources to crackdown (technically) legal cancer drug manufacturers to subsidize US/DEA war on drugs. Priority is to crack down domestic drug trafficing in PRC / golden triangle. The entire reason synthesis moved to Mexico with PRC precursors was because past US admins politically pressured PRC to do something about it. Like if PRC wanted to be politically belligerant, they'd start exporting directly again.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  The Chinese government was working with the US government to crack down on drug smuggling. However, the US government keeps hitting them with more and more sanctions, and is calling the entire One China Policy into question, so China stopped cooperating on a range of issues, including drug smuggling. The US government says it wants to separate these issues out, but the Chinese government doesn't want to go out of its way to help a foreign government that's actively trying to destroy the Chinese high-tech industry with sanctions.
loceng 4y ago
Similarly with buying up real estate in various countries, notably Canada, where they can maintain an upward pressure on prices relatively easily - while acquiring actual land and buildings of at least some value - in order to cause undue and unsustainable suffering for Canadians, which then not only weakens the economy but political structures; and hey, we already also pay the most in the world for telecommunications. There's actually a book by an investigative journalism on the topic: "Wilful Blindness, How a Network of narcos, tycoons and CCP agents infiltrated the West" - https://optimumpublishinginternational.com/shop/wilfulblindness-6semz https://optimumpublishinginternational.com/shop/wilfulblindn... Another article also including the fentanyl crisis: https://betterdwelling.com/new-book-dives-into-canadian-real-estate-gangs-laundering-and-corrupt-officials/ https://betterdwelling.com/new-book-dives-into-canadian-real...
kuba___ 4y ago
i was active in such places pre-SR only. i remember when china banned mephedrone because of uk's demand caused by large number of fatal overdoses in uk. china banned production of mephedrone - that was well known. the thing is - 4 of 5 labs get special permission to still produce it. that was unknown to general public.

Scoundreller 4y ago

It’s just easy to synthesize and potent so it’s easy to smuggle. Manufacturers get pitted against each other and end up selling for cost + markup and a small risk premium. Overall, drugs are cheap, it’s the regulations that make it expensive/difficult to acquire. Easy to interdict heroin or opium from Afghanistan, not so easy for potent synthetics coming from an export powerhouse. Safety for the consumer isn’t a concern for the regulators so you end up with this situation.

ttul 4y ago

Nowadays, the precursors go to Mexico, essentially in unchecked volumes. A widespread network of tiny independent producers then manufacture a kilo at a time in little shacks all over the place, selling their stock to the cartels, who handle transportation to the US market.

hayst4ck 4y ago

I was pretty skeptical about a lot of the negative press about China for a long time. Then the Chinese colonial takeover over Hong Kong went from soft to hard in 2019, during which they leveraged organize crime to try to quell dissent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)#Chinese_government_connections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)#Chines... This made it very clear to me that organized crime is a wing of the Chinese government. Before I probably wouldn't have believed a post like this, but now it seems enough in alignment with all parties interests that I find it more likely to be true than false.

CTDOCodebases 4y ago
The US has done this as well.[0] Though I think it’s fair to distinguish between using organised crime during times of war against an enemies military vs using organised crime during times of peace to grind down a competing nations civilian population. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Underworld?wprov=sft...
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  I would imagine in the US the best parallels or examples would involve corporations or para-government entities (like political parties) leveraging organized crime to fight labor movements or civil rights movements. I would be extremely surprised if there weren't examples, but I don't know them off the top of my head.
- jimt1234 4y ago
  The FBI has used organized crime to help achieve its own goals. One example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.international https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/31/usa.internatio...
- xkcd-sucks 4y ago
  Tangentially related, this reminded me of a documentary film on mass killings in Indonesia titled "The Act of Killing": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing. It is an excellent film. Basically it comprises interviews of gangsters who were recruited by the government to conduct mass executions of undesirable people, and the subjects describe some reasons for which the work was tasked to organized crime rather than to official government employees.
  - hyuuu 4y ago
    these undesirable people are people who look like me, indonesian of chinese descent. They way they told their murderous stories, they didnt even consider us as humans, not even on par with animals.

readthenotes1 4y ago

And they make video games to consume endless hours of Western productivity

hayst4ck 4y ago
I think this point is underrated (albeit a bit unrelated). If China is looking to abuse the world in the way it has been abused, and to cause humiliation to others the way it has been humiliated, then getting the nations workforce to spend their time sitting in front of a computer doing an almost entirely unproductive activity for hours on end, creating a dopamine high that most other activities and certainly hard acitivities like studying can't compete with, then video games share an aweful lot of properties with opium. Real money for digital currency or goods is also something that is ridiculous enough it should probably be heavily regulated.
- h4n1 4y ago
  And Instagram and Twitter and all the other domestically-produced mind-addling time-vampires? I understand looking for "real motives" but getting people addicted to stupid things is a very common business model everywhere under our economic model.
mc32 4y ago
It's a double-edged sword. They also lose productivity due to games addiction by their own pop.
- wmf 4y ago
  Which is why they banned online gaming for young people except for certain hours.
  - elefanten 4y ago
    Not going very well so far. And, while this is far from a prediction, it'd be hilarious if an effective ban quickly caused major social unrest. Video games are (as) insanely popular in China (as everywhere else).

db1234 4y ago

Chinese seem to have learned a thing or two about drug trade from their former adversary, the British. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

Melatonic 4y ago
Always felt like karma to me even if it was not intentional. Surprised this is not talked about more.
- FpUser 4y ago
  Because of endemic "do as I say, not as I do" / hypocrisy. Each nation can dig out a ton of dirt on the other when needed and would give no rats ass about the fact that it did/does/will do the same thing.

dirtyid 4y ago

>political objectives Perhaps, but it's mostly: >government didn't care There's no reason to dedicated domestic PRC resources to crackdown (technically) legal cancer drug manufacturers to subsidize US/DEA war on drugs. Priority is to crack down domestic drug trafficing in PRC / golden triangle. The entire reason synthesis moved to Mexico with PRC precursors was because past US admins politically pressured PRC to do something about it. Like if PRC wanted to be politically belligerant, they'd start exporting directly again.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
The Chinese government was working with the US government to crack down on drug smuggling. However, the US government keeps hitting them with more and more sanctions, and is calling the entire One China Policy into question, so China stopped cooperating on a range of issues, including drug smuggling. The US government says it wants to separate these issues out, but the Chinese government doesn't want to go out of its way to help a foreign government that's actively trying to destroy the Chinese high-tech industry with sanctions.

loceng 4y ago

Similarly with buying up real estate in various countries, notably Canada, where they can maintain an upward pressure on prices relatively easily - while acquiring actual land and buildings of at least some value - in order to cause undue and unsustainable suffering for Canadians, which then not only weakens the economy but political structures; and hey, we already also pay the most in the world for telecommunications. There's actually a book by an investigative journalism on the topic: "Wilful Blindness, How a Network of narcos, tycoons and CCP agents infiltrated the West" - https://optimumpublishinginternational.com/shop/wilfulblindness-6semz https://optimumpublishinginternational.com/shop/wilfulblindn... Another article also including the fentanyl crisis: https://betterdwelling.com/new-book-dives-into-canadian-real-estate-gangs-laundering-and-corrupt-officials/ https://betterdwelling.com/new-book-dives-into-canadian-real...

kuba___ 4y ago

i was active in such places pre-SR only. i remember when china banned mephedrone because of uk's demand caused by large number of fatal overdoses in uk. china banned production of mephedrone - that was well known. the thing is - 4 of 5 labs get special permission to still produce it. that was unknown to general public.