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Or: don't take your rental car that relies on cell service out of cell range. Was anyone else expecting a story about actually going off the grid, you know, pe

Or: don't take your rental car that relies on cell service out of cell range. Was anyone else expecting a story about actually going off the grid, you know, permanently?

Scoundreller 4y ago
This hasn’t happened to me, but I would have thought it was your phone over Bluetooth that unlocked the car after you book it. I don’t 100% know how zipcar operates in each market but I’m guessing these long-distance bookings are pre-booked and you can’t just leave the car in the middle of nowhere. Your phone and the car would only need to phone home at the start of a reservation. I guess the car itself doesn’t have cellular at all and relies on the user’s phone? Could easily run into issues where the user has service but the car does not. Could also see this playing out in underground garages. It’s unclear why the car needs to phone-home for each unlock/start (but no restrictions on operation) within a reservation within its geo-fence. Common sense would be if the car is where you last dropped it off, it should allow you back in within the time of your reservation.
_jal 4y ago
Kind of, but it is the WSJ. Tangent, but it is interesting to me, how many people now seem to be unwilling to go out of cell range. It reminds me of people decades ago who would go camping, but only with a car. If you had to leave powered-travel range, they were out. This is less the case for me now, but there was a time when leaving my cell at home was a huge luxury. And I still enjoy days when I can go do things without it - pretty much the only time anymore when my time is truly my own.
- joshgachnang 4y ago
  We just ran into this for my yearly Boundary Waters canoe trip where cell coverage is spotty at best if you're a couple lakes in. Some of our significant others, especially those who just had or were expecting kids, convinced us to rent a satellite communicator for emergencies. I get it, but part of the experience is being completely disconnected and knowing you're on your own if anything goes wrong.
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    > … part of the experience is being completely disconnected and knowing you're on your own if anything goes wrong. Frankly, that’s silly. In the very unlikely event that something goes seriously wrong, having a satellite-based emergency beacon is easily the difference between life and death or serious life-long injury. I’ve spent plenty of time in the backcountry where cell service is not just spotty, but nonexistent. Now that beacons are cheap and widely available, I always take one. Being self-sufficient and disconnected are good, healthy experiences — having an emergency communication mechanism for emergencies that you cannot handle yourself doesn’t detract from that.
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      It's much more than that. If you are leaving your sat device at home to "up the stakes", you need to let SAR know that this is the game you are playing. You need to make sure they know you do not want or expect a rescue under any circumstances and you need to make sure that the absolute safety of all other parties, including the SAR team themselves, will take priority over a search on your behalf. And if their response is "that is stupid, take your sat device" then do so.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    > but part of the experience is being completely disconnected and knowing you're on your own if anything goes wrong. I've done a fair number of non-trivial self rescues due to ice fall, rock fall, injuries, and fast-moving weather while exposed at elevation. I value self sufficiency and take pride in the fact that I have never had to press that SOS button, even under extreme duress and real objective danger. That said, I do think intentionally refusing the carry a sat comm is downright immoral unless you tell SAR that you do not under any circumstances want a rescue. SAR's operating assumption is that you will want a rescue if you are not able to self-rescue. When someone notices you are missing, SAR will begin a search. If you don't have a sat comm, SAR will have to waste valuable resources on a wide search and possibly even put SAR professionals at additional unnecessary risk. If the emergent event is the result of something that impacts a large area -- storms, earthquakes, avalanche, rock fall, etc. -- other people may die because SAR spent too much time on you. To be clear: I won't judge you for playing life-and-death with self rescue. That's fine. We all play dangerous games and risk is highly personal. But at least TELL SAR the game you are playing! Tell them you do not want a rescue prior to starting your trip. Otherwise, you are not only risking you own party's life, but also the lives of SAR professionals and other parties who may need their services at the same time.
wisnoskij 4y ago
How was this ever allowed? This sounds like litigation central. How you can rent cars that will brick themselves in tunnels, valleys, and in the country? Do cell phones even work in most parking buildings?
- brewdad 4y ago
  I can't find it now but I read an article a couple months ago where a customer was stranded in an underground parking garage due to lack of cell signal.
- merely-unlikely 4y ago
  > Do cell phones even work in most parking buildings? This is why Zipcar issues a card for unlocking the car. I'm not sure why the people in the article didn't have one.
  - saurik 4y ago
    I have talked with someone else who didn't seem to have a card, so maybe it is now optional? It was admittedly a really annoying--if totally understandable--delay when I first went to use the service, and they probably lose a ton of customers who would otherwise impulse buy their way into their first ride were it not for "and now wait forever for your card to arrive". The card definitely solves this problem, though, as as far as I can tell the car does have local storage for how long you are allowed to unlock it. (Your big problem is if you then get back to the car late and the car re-locks. It has no concept of being home or being done other than your time as determined by the service when you last talked to it is up.)
  - crooked-v 4y ago
    The article notes that the card won't work in those situations either.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    The card was also nonfunctional, though whether this was related to the lacking phone coverage isn't clear: The next morning, the family tried to leave for sightseeing, but Mr. McCarthy couldn’t unlock the car with his app or RFID card. From TFA.
kube-system 4y ago
It's unreasonable to expect everyone to critique the engineering of their rental car before renting it. It's the engineers job to make sure the product is capable of being fit for the task it's intended for.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  Fair, sort of. I shouldn't blame the victim too much. That said, engineers have to make assumptions somewhere. I suspect remote camping trips are just too far out of the envelope that ZipCar was designing for, that envelope being cities. But really I'm just irritated by the bait and switch title, that to me promised a much more interesting topic than "here's a thing that can go wrong with one car rental company in situations it clearly wasn't designed for".
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Isn’t the stereotypical use case for zip car to take it on a weekend trip out of town where public transit doesn’t go? National parks are very popular recreational attractions. Not to mention, there are plenty of places in cities without cell service, like parking garages.
    - maximus-decimus 4y ago
      Or recently Telus, one of the big 3 Canadian COM companies, went down for a whole day. Imagine cars stopping to work because of that.
      - johnny-lee 4y ago
        Don't you mean Rogers? see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32026637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32026637
        maximus-decimus 4y ago
        Yes. Thank you.
thwayunion 4y ago
> Or: don't take your rental car that relies on cell service out of cell range. The company advertises weekend camping/hiking trips as a use-case on their blog [1]. Also: they weren't an hour down a dirt road on BLM/NF land. The women were at a popular trail in a national park. The trail is a beginner class 1 five mile loop. Hardly a weird edge-case... literally an afternoon walk in the park. Good thing they were in the PNW and during good weather, because this could've easily turned deadly in many other parts of the country. Being locked out of my car unexpectedly after a light&fast winter objective in the mountains or a light&fast summer objective in the desert -- especially solo -- would get pretty serious pretty fast. Hopefully I would be able to bust the windows and get at my water and bivy; if not, that would be a scary and dangerous night. > Was anyone else expecting a story about actually going off the grid, you know, permanently? Not per se, but definitely didn't expect a story about a parking lot at a roadside trailhead of a popular beginner day hike... [1] https://www.zipcar.com/ziptopia/camping https://www.zipcar.com/ziptopia/camping
SECProto 4y ago
> Was anyone else expecting a story about actually going off the grid, you know, permanently? Yep, I clicked on it looking for an article about pitfalls experienced by someone (or several someones) building off-grid housing. Oh well
merely-unlikely 4y ago
> The trio had rented a technology-reliant Hyundai Elantra from Zipcar Inc. I've used Zipcar for a while in NYC and until relatively recently they didn't allow mobile unlock because a lot of parking garages don't have cell service. You had to use the card that comes with the subscription.
fortran77 4y ago
Do you really think the people who rented the cars knew that this service relied on cell coverage?
chrisbrandow 4y ago
Happened to my daughter and friend at a trailhead in Shenandoah national park. They defo need a better (bluetooth at least) system.
badwolf 4y ago
I've had trouble with zipcars not connecting in parking garages... Where the zipcars live/supposed to return to.

Or: don't take your rental car that relies on cell service out of cell range. Was anyone else expecting a story about actually going off the grid, you know, permanently?

Scoundreller 4y ago

This hasn’t happened to me, but I would have thought it was your phone over Bluetooth that unlocked the car after you book it. I don’t 100% know how zipcar operates in each market but I’m guessing these long-distance bookings are pre-booked and you can’t just leave the car in the middle of nowhere. Your phone and the car would only need to phone home at the start of a reservation. I guess the car itself doesn’t have cellular at all and relies on the user’s phone? Could easily run into issues where the user has service but the car does not. Could also see this playing out in underground garages. It’s unclear why the car needs to phone-home for each unlock/start (but no restrictions on operation) within a reservation within its geo-fence. Common sense would be if the car is where you last dropped it off, it should allow you back in within the time of your reservation.

_jal 4y ago

Kind of, but it is the WSJ. Tangent, but it is interesting to me, how many people now seem to be unwilling to go out of cell range. It reminds me of people decades ago who would go camping, but only with a car. If you had to leave powered-travel range, they were out. This is less the case for me now, but there was a time when leaving my cell at home was a huge luxury. And I still enjoy days when I can go do things without it - pretty much the only time anymore when my time is truly my own.

joshgachnang 4y ago
We just ran into this for my yearly Boundary Waters canoe trip where cell coverage is spotty at best if you're a couple lakes in. Some of our significant others, especially those who just had or were expecting kids, convinced us to rent a satellite communicator for emergencies. I get it, but part of the experience is being completely disconnected and knowing you're on your own if anything goes wrong.
- catiopatio 4y ago
  > … part of the experience is being completely disconnected and knowing you're on your own if anything goes wrong. Frankly, that’s silly. In the very unlikely event that something goes seriously wrong, having a satellite-based emergency beacon is easily the difference between life and death or serious life-long injury. I’ve spent plenty of time in the backcountry where cell service is not just spotty, but nonexistent. Now that beacons are cheap and widely available, I always take one. Being self-sufficient and disconnected are good, healthy experiences — having an emergency communication mechanism for emergencies that you cannot handle yourself doesn’t detract from that.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    It's much more than that. If you are leaving your sat device at home to "up the stakes", you need to let SAR know that this is the game you are playing. You need to make sure they know you do not want or expect a rescue under any circumstances and you need to make sure that the absolute safety of all other parties, including the SAR team themselves, will take priority over a search on your behalf. And if their response is "that is stupid, take your sat device" then do so.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  > but part of the experience is being completely disconnected and knowing you're on your own if anything goes wrong. I've done a fair number of non-trivial self rescues due to ice fall, rock fall, injuries, and fast-moving weather while exposed at elevation. I value self sufficiency and take pride in the fact that I have never had to press that SOS button, even under extreme duress and real objective danger. That said, I do think intentionally refusing the carry a sat comm is downright immoral unless you tell SAR that you do not under any circumstances want a rescue. SAR's operating assumption is that you will want a rescue if you are not able to self-rescue. When someone notices you are missing, SAR will begin a search. If you don't have a sat comm, SAR will have to waste valuable resources on a wide search and possibly even put SAR professionals at additional unnecessary risk. If the emergent event is the result of something that impacts a large area -- storms, earthquakes, avalanche, rock fall, etc. -- other people may die because SAR spent too much time on you. To be clear: I won't judge you for playing life-and-death with self rescue. That's fine. We all play dangerous games and risk is highly personal. But at least TELL SAR the game you are playing! Tell them you do not want a rescue prior to starting your trip. Otherwise, you are not only risking you own party's life, but also the lives of SAR professionals and other parties who may need their services at the same time.

wisnoskij 4y ago

How was this ever allowed? This sounds like litigation central. How you can rent cars that will brick themselves in tunnels, valleys, and in the country? Do cell phones even work in most parking buildings?

brewdad 4y ago
I can't find it now but I read an article a couple months ago where a customer was stranded in an underground parking garage due to lack of cell signal.
merely-unlikely 4y ago
> Do cell phones even work in most parking buildings? This is why Zipcar issues a card for unlocking the car. I'm not sure why the people in the article didn't have one.
- saurik 4y ago
  I have talked with someone else who didn't seem to have a card, so maybe it is now optional? It was admittedly a really annoying--if totally understandable--delay when I first went to use the service, and they probably lose a ton of customers who would otherwise impulse buy their way into their first ride were it not for "and now wait forever for your card to arrive". The card definitely solves this problem, though, as as far as I can tell the car does have local storage for how long you are allowed to unlock it. (Your big problem is if you then get back to the car late and the car re-locks. It has no concept of being home or being done other than your time as determined by the service when you last talked to it is up.)
- crooked-v 4y ago
  The article notes that the card won't work in those situations either.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  The card was also nonfunctional, though whether this was related to the lacking phone coverage isn't clear: The next morning, the family tried to leave for sightseeing, but Mr. McCarthy couldn’t unlock the car with his app or RFID card. From TFA.

kube-system 4y ago

It's unreasonable to expect everyone to critique the engineering of their rental car before renting it. It's the engineers job to make sure the product is capable of being fit for the task it's intended for.

andrewflnr 4y ago
Fair, sort of. I shouldn't blame the victim too much. That said, engineers have to make assumptions somewhere. I suspect remote camping trips are just too far out of the envelope that ZipCar was designing for, that envelope being cities. But really I'm just irritated by the bait and switch title, that to me promised a much more interesting topic than "here's a thing that can go wrong with one car rental company in situations it clearly wasn't designed for".
- kube-system 4y ago
  Isn’t the stereotypical use case for zip car to take it on a weekend trip out of town where public transit doesn’t go? National parks are very popular recreational attractions. Not to mention, there are plenty of places in cities without cell service, like parking garages.
  - maximus-decimus 4y ago
    Or recently Telus, one of the big 3 Canadian COM companies, went down for a whole day. Imagine cars stopping to work because of that.
    - johnny-lee 4y ago
      Don't you mean Rogers? see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32026637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32026637
      - maximus-decimus 4y ago
        Yes. Thank you.

thwayunion 4y ago

> Or: don't take your rental car that relies on cell service out of cell range. The company advertises weekend camping/hiking trips as a use-case on their blog [1]. Also: they weren't an hour down a dirt road on BLM/NF land. The women were at a popular trail in a national park. The trail is a beginner class 1 five mile loop. Hardly a weird edge-case... literally an afternoon walk in the park. Good thing they were in the PNW and during good weather, because this could've easily turned deadly in many other parts of the country. Being locked out of my car unexpectedly after a light&fast winter objective in the mountains or a light&fast summer objective in the desert -- especially solo -- would get pretty serious pretty fast. Hopefully I would be able to bust the windows and get at my water and bivy; if not, that would be a scary and dangerous night. > Was anyone else expecting a story about actually going off the grid, you know, permanently? Not per se, but definitely didn't expect a story about a parking lot at a roadside trailhead of a popular beginner day hike... [1] https://www.zipcar.com/ziptopia/camping https://www.zipcar.com/ziptopia/camping

SECProto 4y ago

> Was anyone else expecting a story about actually going off the grid, you know, permanently? Yep, I clicked on it looking for an article about pitfalls experienced by someone (or several someones) building off-grid housing. Oh well

merely-unlikely 4y ago

> The trio had rented a technology-reliant Hyundai Elantra from Zipcar Inc. I've used Zipcar for a while in NYC and until relatively recently they didn't allow mobile unlock because a lot of parking garages don't have cell service. You had to use the card that comes with the subscription.

fortran77 4y ago

Do you really think the people who rented the cars knew that this service relied on cell coverage?

chrisbrandow 4y ago

Happened to my daughter and friend at a trailhead in Shenandoah national park. They defo need a better (bluetooth at least) system.

badwolf 4y ago

I've had trouble with zipcars not connecting in parking garages... Where the zipcars live/supposed to return to.