7 ms·

Many of the older subway stations in the upper part of Manhattan were built in the same time period and have a very similar architectural style, down to the til

Many of the older subway stations in the upper part of Manhattan were built in the same time period and have a very similar architectural style, down to the tiled walls and the ornate molding, but they look absolutely decrepit. The tile is stained with dirt and grime. The molding is broken in places. For most people who pass through one of these stations (which are pretty busy), their general impression is that the stations look cheap and dirty. You wouldn't really notice how lavish the decorations in these stations must have been at opening unless you were paying particular attention to your surroundings. It's sad how little the US has invested in maintaining its public transit infrastructure compared to other countries.

lispm 4y ago
The renovation of the Elbtunnel is still ongoing until ca. 2026 and will then in sum have cost around 114 million Euro.
xhrpost 4y ago
> It's sad how little the US has invested in maintaining its public transit infrastructure compared to other countries. I'm on the fence about this, on average across the US, I'd agree. But where we do have decent transit, we seem to spend a lot. The NY MTA will spend $18B[1] in total in 2022, more than 6x the amount the state spends on all state roads in NY for 2018[2]. Despite this amount of money being spent, we have the general problems that you mention above, plus the fact that any expansion is prohibitively expensive. I just have to wonder, even if a lot more money were spent, would we actually see proportional improvements? [1] https://www.osc.state.ny.us/files/reports/osdc/pdf/report-10-2022.pdf https://www.osc.state.ny.us/files/reports/osdc/pdf/report-10... [2] https://cbcny.org/research/building-sound-fiscal-future-new-yorks-highway-and-mass-transit-systems https://cbcny.org/research/building-sound-fiscal-future-new-...
- crote 4y ago
  I do not live in NYC, so please correct me if I am wrong, but both can be true at the same time. Looking specifically at the NYC subway, they are both over-spending and under-spending at the same time. In a nice example of the Boots Theory[0], they are spending money by the boatloads to keep the dating infrastructure working. A lot of it dates back to the 1930s, and it is impossible to get replacement parts. A newer system would be far easier and cheaper to maintain - but in the short term replacing it would be an enormous cost. This is made even worse by it running 24/7. Without a maintenance window, doing proper preventative maintenance is pretty much impossible. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
  - mbiondi 4y ago
    I never heard of the Boots Theory before now, but I don't think it applies to the MTA. They buy the top of the line. And will build their own parts if it doesn't exist. It's not unusual for subway cars to run for millions of miles and last decades. The R32's were deployed in the 1930's and lasted until the early 2000's [0]. I am a New Yorker, and have seen the MTA do maintenance at night or over a weekend. Or, if things are desperate, during the day. I don't know the real issues either, but always assumed politics played a big part. [0] -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R32_(New_York_City_Subway_car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R32_(New_York_City_Subway_car)
    - lmm 4y ago
      > They buy the top of the line. And will build their own parts if it doesn't exist. It's not unusual for subway cars to run for millions of miles and last decades. The R32's were deployed in the 1930's and lasted until the early 2000's [0]. That doesn't seem to contradict th idea that they've spent far more money maintaining obsolete equipment when buying new would be cheaper overall. (Not really "boots theory" though).
    - profile53 4y ago
      It’s worth noting their entire switching infrastructure is human run mechanical switches and the tech are dated enough the MTA can’t even reliably know where a given subway car is. By comparison, most subway systems have a computerized switching infrastructure with real time computerized tracking of cars, saving quite-literally millions of man hours a year of work.
- mbiondi 4y ago
  A lot of the MTA's budget is spent on interest on their debt (about $4 Billion / year). Page 23 of your report shows they currently have about $45 Billion in outstanding bonds. A cursory view seems to show about $6 Billion is to cover capital projects, which makes one wonder what the other 39 Billion was issued for.
  - Someone 4y ago
    To cover the gap between expenses and decreased income and for pensions, it seems. http://www.columbia.edu/~kyl2120/mtaproject/ http://www.columbia.edu/~kyl2120/mtaproject/: “One big chunk of revenues, about $5.5 billion in 2013, comes from fares, which has steadily increased since in the last decade on the back of growing ridership and two fare hikes. But it’s been nothing drastic. Instead, the drama has come from the other major component for the MTA’s revenues: taxes, grants and subsidies that are routed through the city and state governments. In 2013, for instance, “grants, appropriation and taxes” brought in about $5.3 billion in revenues. Large components of these revenues are linked to taxes levied on real-estate transactions in New York. The Mortgage Recording Tax is among the prime sources, collected in New York City and the seven other counties within the MTA’s service area. 30 cents per 100 dollars of recorded mortgages, and 0.25 of one percent of certain other mortgages, are paid into this. In 2005, before the great recession, it raised $1.3 billion. And in 2009, in the depths of the great depression, it raised $350 million. It’s hard running an agency, especially one so big, with such volatile revenue sources,” explained Russianoff. “The others don’t come close to the Mortgage Recording Tax but they have their volatility as well.” […] But the same manpower is also turned into a sort of liability, partly due to the MTA’s own doing. “All the benefits have begun costing a lot and the MTA, for a long time, had a deal where they would basically give retirement benefits after 10 years,” explained Jain. “So people would go find other jobs, or they would retire and go find another job. And when the time comes, they’d be collecting retirement benefits.”
edavison1 4y ago
It's tempting to see it that way, but I read your comment and see an unfair comparison between a small city and the largest in the United States. The MTA is ugly (I love it) but let's not kid ourselves, they spend a shitload of money maintaining nearly 500 stations, probably the yearly cost of that tunnel per day.
- andrewshadura 4y ago
  Hamburg? A small city? Seriously?
  - rongopo 4y ago
    For "true Hamburguers" is indeed very small: North of the Elbe, West of the Alster.
  - anyonecancode 4y ago
    No -- but NYC is a very large city. So comparatively, Hamburg is small. City to city comparisons can be tricky because city borders vs metro area can be a bit arbitrary, but no matter which way you cut it NYC is vastly more populous.
Arrath 4y ago
The (at least the older original) stations of the Moscow metro are likewise individual works of art. The pure plain utilitarianism of modern stations in NYC or the London Underground are sterile and boring in comparison.
- jguimont 4y ago
  Montreal has different architecture and design for each metro stop https://www.mtlblog.com/montreal/montreal-metro-architecture-showcased-in-24-stunning-photos https://www.mtlblog.com/montreal/montreal-metro-architecture...
  - Arrath 4y ago
    I love it!
- NeoTar 4y ago
  Whilst I wouldn't call Berlin's UBahn stations works of art, they are often distinct and make travelling the network its own pleasure.
- lmm 4y ago
  I don't think "pure plain utilitarianism" is a fair description of the London underground as a whole. Even the Victoria Line made a point of doing a unique mosaic for each station; the Jubilee Line extension has a distinctive artistic style (which a lot of people hate, but you can't say they didn't try). Crossrail has put an even stronger emphasis on design.
  - Arrath 4y ago
    Yeah it may be an overgeneralization, but from a recent trip nothing about the stations I visited particularly sticks out in my memory beyond concrete and plain tile.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

lispm 4y ago

The renovation of the Elbtunnel is still ongoing until ca. 2026 and will then in sum have cost around 114 million Euro.

xhrpost 4y ago

> It's sad how little the US has invested in maintaining its public transit infrastructure compared to other countries. I'm on the fence about this, on average across the US, I'd agree. But where we do have decent transit, we seem to spend a lot. The NY MTA will spend $18B[1] in total in 2022, more than 6x the amount the state spends on all state roads in NY for 2018[2]. Despite this amount of money being spent, we have the general problems that you mention above, plus the fact that any expansion is prohibitively expensive. I just have to wonder, even if a lot more money were spent, would we actually see proportional improvements? [1] https://www.osc.state.ny.us/files/reports/osdc/pdf/report-10-2022.pdf https://www.osc.state.ny.us/files/reports/osdc/pdf/report-10... [2] https://cbcny.org/research/building-sound-fiscal-future-new-yorks-highway-and-mass-transit-systems https://cbcny.org/research/building-sound-fiscal-future-new-...

crote 4y ago
I do not live in NYC, so please correct me if I am wrong, but both can be true at the same time. Looking specifically at the NYC subway, they are both over-spending and under-spending at the same time. In a nice example of the Boots Theory[0], they are spending money by the boatloads to keep the dating infrastructure working. A lot of it dates back to the 1930s, and it is impossible to get replacement parts. A newer system would be far easier and cheaper to maintain - but in the short term replacing it would be an enormous cost. This is made even worse by it running 24/7. Without a maintenance window, doing proper preventative maintenance is pretty much impossible. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
- mbiondi 4y ago
  I never heard of the Boots Theory before now, but I don't think it applies to the MTA. They buy the top of the line. And will build their own parts if it doesn't exist. It's not unusual for subway cars to run for millions of miles and last decades. The R32's were deployed in the 1930's and lasted until the early 2000's [0]. I am a New Yorker, and have seen the MTA do maintenance at night or over a weekend. Or, if things are desperate, during the day. I don't know the real issues either, but always assumed politics played a big part. [0] -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R32_(New_York_City_Subway_car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R32_(New_York_City_Subway_car)
  - lmm 4y ago
    > They buy the top of the line. And will build their own parts if it doesn't exist. It's not unusual for subway cars to run for millions of miles and last decades. The R32's were deployed in the 1930's and lasted until the early 2000's [0]. That doesn't seem to contradict th idea that they've spent far more money maintaining obsolete equipment when buying new would be cheaper overall. (Not really "boots theory" though).
  - profile53 4y ago
    It’s worth noting their entire switching infrastructure is human run mechanical switches and the tech are dated enough the MTA can’t even reliably know where a given subway car is. By comparison, most subway systems have a computerized switching infrastructure with real time computerized tracking of cars, saving quite-literally millions of man hours a year of work.
mbiondi 4y ago
A lot of the MTA's budget is spent on interest on their debt (about $4 Billion / year). Page 23 of your report shows they currently have about $45 Billion in outstanding bonds. A cursory view seems to show about $6 Billion is to cover capital projects, which makes one wonder what the other 39 Billion was issued for.
- Someone 4y ago
  To cover the gap between expenses and decreased income and for pensions, it seems. http://www.columbia.edu/~kyl2120/mtaproject/ http://www.columbia.edu/~kyl2120/mtaproject/: “One big chunk of revenues, about $5.5 billion in 2013, comes from fares, which has steadily increased since in the last decade on the back of growing ridership and two fare hikes. But it’s been nothing drastic. Instead, the drama has come from the other major component for the MTA’s revenues: taxes, grants and subsidies that are routed through the city and state governments. In 2013, for instance, “grants, appropriation and taxes” brought in about $5.3 billion in revenues. Large components of these revenues are linked to taxes levied on real-estate transactions in New York. The Mortgage Recording Tax is among the prime sources, collected in New York City and the seven other counties within the MTA’s service area. 30 cents per 100 dollars of recorded mortgages, and 0.25 of one percent of certain other mortgages, are paid into this. In 2005, before the great recession, it raised $1.3 billion. And in 2009, in the depths of the great depression, it raised $350 million. It’s hard running an agency, especially one so big, with such volatile revenue sources,” explained Russianoff. “The others don’t come close to the Mortgage Recording Tax but they have their volatility as well.” […] But the same manpower is also turned into a sort of liability, partly due to the MTA’s own doing. “All the benefits have begun costing a lot and the MTA, for a long time, had a deal where they would basically give retirement benefits after 10 years,” explained Jain. “So people would go find other jobs, or they would retire and go find another job. And when the time comes, they’d be collecting retirement benefits.”

edavison1 4y ago

It's tempting to see it that way, but I read your comment and see an unfair comparison between a small city and the largest in the United States. The MTA is ugly (I love it) but let's not kid ourselves, they spend a shitload of money maintaining nearly 500 stations, probably the yearly cost of that tunnel per day.

andrewshadura 4y ago
Hamburg? A small city? Seriously?
- rongopo 4y ago
  For "true Hamburguers" is indeed very small: North of the Elbe, West of the Alster.
- anyonecancode 4y ago
  No -- but NYC is a very large city. So comparatively, Hamburg is small. City to city comparisons can be tricky because city borders vs metro area can be a bit arbitrary, but no matter which way you cut it NYC is vastly more populous.

Arrath 4y ago

The (at least the older original) stations of the Moscow metro are likewise individual works of art. The pure plain utilitarianism of modern stations in NYC or the London Underground are sterile and boring in comparison.

jguimont 4y ago
Montreal has different architecture and design for each metro stop https://www.mtlblog.com/montreal/montreal-metro-architecture-showcased-in-24-stunning-photos https://www.mtlblog.com/montreal/montreal-metro-architecture...
- Arrath 4y ago
  I love it!
NeoTar 4y ago
Whilst I wouldn't call Berlin's UBahn stations works of art, they are often distinct and make travelling the network its own pleasure.
lmm 4y ago
I don't think "pure plain utilitarianism" is a fair description of the London underground as a whole. Even the Victoria Line made a point of doing a unique mosaic for each station; the Jubilee Line extension has a distinctive artistic style (which a lot of people hate, but you can't say they didn't try). Crossrail has put an even stronger emphasis on design.
- Arrath 4y ago
  Yeah it may be an overgeneralization, but from a recent trip nothing about the stations I visited particularly sticks out in my memory beyond concrete and plain tile.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]