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The FBI is more or less a legalized criminal organization that is funded by U.S. taxpayers, but is unelected and unaccountable to them. This article is from 201

The FBI is more or less a legalized criminal organization that is funded by U.S. taxpayers, but is unelected and unaccountable to them. This article is from 2013, but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that this behavior has changed: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/04/fbi-informant-crimes-report/2613305/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/04/fbi-in... The important part to consider: > The FBI gave its informants permission to break the law at least 5,658 times in a single year, according to newly disclosed documents that show just how often the nation's top law enforcement agency enlists criminals to help it battle crime. I know this is talking specifically about informants, and you could make a case that that is necessary, but what reason is there to believe that this doesn’t extend to members of the FBI as well? Here is a more recent article about this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/11/18/fbi-and-other-agencies-paid-informants-548-million-in-recent-years-with-many-committing-authorized-crimes/?sh=20b77bbcf4dd https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/11/18/fbi...

dclowd9901 4y ago
If you could make the case that it’s necessary then what are we even talking about here?
- 15155 4y ago
  Do the ends justify the means?
- dekken_ 4y ago
  Make whatever case you want, doesn't mean anyone has to accept it.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
Governments are basically the mob, except that they figured out that they can exert more control over a longer period of time if they have documents that "constrain" their powers and they offer you a say in some matters. Every year, I pay the US government protection money at a higher rate than the mob demanded (~35% vs ~15%). They mark their territory, control who enters and exits, and demand compliance with their rules. If you are under their protection, they give you a little document that tells other gangs not to screw with you. They back all of this up with guns and threats of violence, held by unelected thugs. They give you a process to prove your innocence, but the process itself is a punishment, since it is a huge resource drain to go through. The FBI are the most visible thugs.
- CabSauce 4y ago
  Except for that whole voting thing. The "government", in a functioning democracy, is us.
- nelsondev 4y ago
  Yup exactly. Our default social contract gives governments a monopoly on violence, of course they’ll use it.
  - Eupraxias 4y ago
    "Right of Force". At some point, freedom is restricted at gunpoint. Government works this way because it is logical that it do so. This is why it is critical to have government established "of, by, and for" the constituency - because even in a best-case scenario, corruption will get in the cracks and make them bigger, etc.
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      I'm going to expose my political bias here: I think the only way to prevent the corruption and expansion is to keep the government small by limiting the amount of resources that are under its direct control. Just offering "of, by, and for" won't do it if there are millions of people on the payroll. Of course, the Somali government is very small and Somali people are very free, and they aren't doing very well either.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Would you consider the EU to have a large amount of regulations but those countries are generally doing well. I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        > I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average I think this is true, but I don't think the correlation is causal. Rich countries throughout history have tended to grow their governments after becoming rich by adopting social programs and trying to flex their muscle internationally. Most of Europe followed this model, as did the US.
coldtea 4y ago
That's just about explicit permission. All kind of shit also happens via implicit permission (nobody does anything about cops doing it and so is normalized) or no permission.
RetpolineDrama 4y ago
They also have the seemingly unique and blatantly unconstitutional power to imprison you for ""lying"" to them. The actual wording/charge is "providing false statements", which means anything that they can later suggest is untrue. This is why you should never, ever speak with anyone associated with the FBI even if they are being "friendly". Say they knock at the door and have questions for you about your shady neighbor down the street. You're not the one under investigation, so what's the harm in talking to them right? Well officer friendly asks the innocuous question of if it was raining last Thursday. You tell them that it was. As it turns out, it was not raining last Thursday and your honest-but-wrong answer means you are now able to be charged with "lying to the FBI". In practice, they knew it wasn't raining last Thursday and the question was a trap. By answering incorrectly officer friendly can then threaten to charge you at a later date, except there's an out! _You can become an informant!_. By agreeing to spy on your neighbor for the mafia they'll spare you federal inditement. You're now an "asset" that they can work for as long as they please and you have no legal recourse. EDIT: To expand upon this, lets say it wasn't last thursday but was in fact 60+ days ago. They have a text message from you to your wife saying how beautiful/sunny the day was, because despite being "end to end encrypted" your iMessage private key is stored on Apple servers because you clicked the default CTAs during iCloud setup to enable iCloud backup. They _know_ it was not raining and have "proof" you knew it was not raining, because you texted your wife how nice and sunny it was. You honestly don't remember at the time you were questioned, maybe you think you're 100% telling the truth. Maybe you're confused, and are thinking of the thursday prior where it _was_ raining. None of that matters, they have you on a federal felony and you're their asset now.
- AustinDev 4y ago
  The 'best' part about this power is they don't record their interrogations. All of the 'truth' from the interview is recorded on paper by the FBI agents.
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    Give it a few years and the audio recordings won't be any more trustable, if they are even right now. The piece of paper is just as good.
bell-cot 4y ago
Um, yes - bad cops are bad, and there are plenty of bad cops. Very bad. Might anyone point to an example (current or historical) of a large, complex, socially diverse society which has managed to tightly control actually-serious crime, while also managing to keep the "bad cop stuff" well below the level which America has been stuck with in the past ~half of a century?
- iudqnolq 4y ago
  A randomly selected citizen has a smaller chance being abused by the police in any rich country and nearly any poor country. People can point to horrible police misconduct cases in other countries, but you need an immense amount of police misconduct to reach American levels. Here's a list of the top ten countries ranked by police killings per year. Note this isn't adjusted by population. Note also that the other countries on this list aren't the sort you'd expect to produce good statistics. Philippines — 6,069+ (avg 2016-2021—includes only deaths during anti-drug operations) Brazil — 5,804 (2019) Venezuela — 5,287 (2018) India — 1,731 (2019) Syria — 1,497 (2019) El Salvador — 1087 (2017) United States — 946 (2020) Nigeria — 841 (2018) Afghanistan — 606 (2018) Pakistan — 495 (2017)
  - arcticfox 4y ago
    Why did you specifically select the non-population adjusted list? Top 10 Countries with the Highest Rate of Police Killings (per 10 million residents — U.S. ranks 33rd): - Venezuela — 1829.9 (2018) - El Salvador — 1703.8 (2017) - Syria — 819 (2019) - Philippines — 556.5 (2016-21 avg) - Nicaragua — 522.7 (2018) - Jamaica — 472.7 (2018) - Trinidad and Tobago — 339.7 (2014) - Brazil — 276.2 (2019) - Bahamas — 275.7 (2018) - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines — 181.8 (2018)
    - iudqnolq 4y ago
      Why did you specifically select the portion of that list that doesn't include the US? It shows the US is far worse than any rich country, as I claimed. Mexico, Rwanda, Sudan, and Mali rank 34-37 https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-killings-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-ki... Edit: The closest rich countries are - Malta, at ~2/3 the US - Luxumberg, ~ 1/2 - Canada, ~1/3 Malta is notably an anomaly: I can't think of any other rich democracy where journalists reporting on on government links to organized crime get killed by car bombs.
socialismisok 4y ago
This is cops in general, and not unique to the FBI.
notch656a 4y ago
Wait until you find out about the DHS. Unlike interactions with the FBI, it is illegal to record them*. They do not wear body cams. You have no right to a lawyer when interacting with them. They can jail you without charging you or accusing you of a crime. They can search you without probable cause or a warrant. They can put you in cuffs, take you to a hospital, and lie to doctors that you have drugs up your ass, all without a warrant, and then you'll be sent thousands in medical bills for medical services you didn't consent to**. They can stop you on the road without reasonable suspicion / PC / a warrant. They consistently have the among the worst human rights record and hire the lowest quality candidates, and arguably have the least oversight of any of the large federal law enforcement agencies. *at the border, where most people have this interaction with their child organization CBP. **Actually happened to me.
- cryptonector 4y ago
  > They can stop you on the road without reasonable suspicion / PC / a warrant. If you're within 100 miles of the border or the oceans. That covers something like 2/3rds of the U.S. population.
hericium 4y ago
> The FBI is more or less a legalized criminal organization that is funded by U.S. taxpayers, but is unelected and unaccountable to them This kinda reads like a description of the CIA. How many of these have you got there?
- firmnoodle 4y ago
  I think he's talking about the domestic operations. I would agree that the CIA and their sister organizations who operate internationally fit the description as well. Can't torture someone, well, take them to a friendly place where your buddy can torture them. Need to plant some FUD on a person? "an anonymous source in the intelligence community said that X did Y in Z." Unelected, Unaccountable and unchecked in every way.
  - hericium 4y ago
    Frank Olson's[1] death is an example of possible/alleged CIA's internal operation. There are numerous other cases like this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson
    - virissimo 4y ago
      Discrediting Joseph McCarthy is another example of a CIA internal operation: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/48603/did-the-cia-feed-false-information-to-mccarthy-to-discredit-his-true-claims-that https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/48603/did-the-c....
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    They can also dose US citizens with psychoactive substances without their consent or knowledge, start destroying the evidence and get away with it.
  - RetpolineDrama 4y ago
    >Can't torture someone, well, take them to a friendly place where your buddy can torture them. That reminds me of the technical equivalent with five eyes, and I've never managed to figure out how that is _not_ treason. Oh, domestic organization X can't spy on you because of that pesky constitution, but they can "allow" a hostile agency from another country to do all the spying (and vice-versa) then "share" information. Seems pretty clearcut, our domestic agencies are conspiring with a foreign power to defraud US citizens of their constitutional rights. People should go to jail for that, but somehow it's all considered legal
tmaly 4y ago
You just got added to the list for saying that out loud.
yieldcrv 4y ago
Just in case stories like this dont negatively affect your view of law enforcement, think of it this way: There is a fixed number of people who can have their rights violated before the population doesn’t have confidence in law enforcement. And thats what we are seeing now.
scarface74 4y ago
> The FBI is more or less a legalized criminal organization that is funded by U.S. taxpayers, How is this any different than local law enforcement? I’m not saying you are implying this. But it’s strange that the same people who “back the blue” locally, want to “defund the FBI”.
- exq 4y ago
  Strange, these same people loved when the fbi in 2016...
- Tozen 4y ago
  I guess it depends on who is the one getting F'd over. If it's "them", then support. If it's "us", defund.
droptablemain 4y ago
As bad as the FBI is, it pales in comparison to the international terrorist activities of the CIA.

dclowd9901 4y ago

If you could make the case that it’s necessary then what are we even talking about here?

15155 4y ago
Do the ends justify the means?
dekken_ 4y ago
Make whatever case you want, doesn't mean anyone has to accept it.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

Governments are basically the mob, except that they figured out that they can exert more control over a longer period of time if they have documents that "constrain" their powers and they offer you a say in some matters. Every year, I pay the US government protection money at a higher rate than the mob demanded (~35% vs ~15%). They mark their territory, control who enters and exits, and demand compliance with their rules. If you are under their protection, they give you a little document that tells other gangs not to screw with you. They back all of this up with guns and threats of violence, held by unelected thugs. They give you a process to prove your innocence, but the process itself is a punishment, since it is a huge resource drain to go through. The FBI are the most visible thugs.

CabSauce 4y ago
Except for that whole voting thing. The "government", in a functioning democracy, is us.
nelsondev 4y ago
Yup exactly. Our default social contract gives governments a monopoly on violence, of course they’ll use it.
- Eupraxias 4y ago
  "Right of Force". At some point, freedom is restricted at gunpoint. Government works this way because it is logical that it do so. This is why it is critical to have government established "of, by, and for" the constituency - because even in a best-case scenario, corruption will get in the cracks and make them bigger, etc.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    I'm going to expose my political bias here: I think the only way to prevent the corruption and expansion is to keep the government small by limiting the amount of resources that are under its direct control. Just offering "of, by, and for" won't do it if there are millions of people on the payroll. Of course, the Somali government is very small and Somali people are very free, and they aren't doing very well either.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Would you consider the EU to have a large amount of regulations but those countries are generally doing well. I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        > I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average I think this is true, but I don't think the correlation is causal. Rich countries throughout history have tended to grow their governments after becoming rich by adopting social programs and trying to flex their muscle internationally. Most of Europe followed this model, as did the US.

coldtea 4y ago

That's just about explicit permission. All kind of shit also happens via implicit permission (nobody does anything about cops doing it and so is normalized) or no permission.

RetpolineDrama 4y ago

They also have the seemingly unique and blatantly unconstitutional power to imprison you for ""lying"" to them. The actual wording/charge is "providing false statements", which means anything that they can later suggest is untrue. This is why you should never, ever speak with anyone associated with the FBI even if they are being "friendly". Say they knock at the door and have questions for you about your shady neighbor down the street. You're not the one under investigation, so what's the harm in talking to them right? Well officer friendly asks the innocuous question of if it was raining last Thursday. You tell them that it was. As it turns out, it was not raining last Thursday and your honest-but-wrong answer means you are now able to be charged with "lying to the FBI". In practice, they knew it wasn't raining last Thursday and the question was a trap. By answering incorrectly officer friendly can then threaten to charge you at a later date, except there's an out! _You can become an informant!_. By agreeing to spy on your neighbor for the mafia they'll spare you federal inditement. You're now an "asset" that they can work for as long as they please and you have no legal recourse. EDIT: To expand upon this, lets say it wasn't last thursday but was in fact 60+ days ago. They have a text message from you to your wife saying how beautiful/sunny the day was, because despite being "end to end encrypted" your iMessage private key is stored on Apple servers because you clicked the default CTAs during iCloud setup to enable iCloud backup. They _know_ it was not raining and have "proof" you knew it was not raining, because you texted your wife how nice and sunny it was. You honestly don't remember at the time you were questioned, maybe you think you're 100% telling the truth. Maybe you're confused, and are thinking of the thursday prior where it _was_ raining. None of that matters, they have you on a federal felony and you're their asset now.

AustinDev 4y ago
The 'best' part about this power is they don't record their interrogations. All of the 'truth' from the interview is recorded on paper by the FBI agents.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  Give it a few years and the audio recordings won't be any more trustable, if they are even right now. The piece of paper is just as good.

bell-cot 4y ago

Um, yes - bad cops are bad, and there are plenty of bad cops. Very bad. Might anyone point to an example (current or historical) of a large, complex, socially diverse society which has managed to tightly control actually-serious crime, while also managing to keep the "bad cop stuff" well below the level which America has been stuck with in the past ~half of a century?

iudqnolq 4y ago
A randomly selected citizen has a smaller chance being abused by the police in any rich country and nearly any poor country. People can point to horrible police misconduct cases in other countries, but you need an immense amount of police misconduct to reach American levels. Here's a list of the top ten countries ranked by police killings per year. Note this isn't adjusted by population. Note also that the other countries on this list aren't the sort you'd expect to produce good statistics. Philippines — 6,069+ (avg 2016-2021—includes only deaths during anti-drug operations) Brazil — 5,804 (2019) Venezuela — 5,287 (2018) India — 1,731 (2019) Syria — 1,497 (2019) El Salvador — 1087 (2017) United States — 946 (2020) Nigeria — 841 (2018) Afghanistan — 606 (2018) Pakistan — 495 (2017)
- arcticfox 4y ago
  Why did you specifically select the non-population adjusted list? Top 10 Countries with the Highest Rate of Police Killings (per 10 million residents — U.S. ranks 33rd): - Venezuela — 1829.9 (2018) - El Salvador — 1703.8 (2017) - Syria — 819 (2019) - Philippines — 556.5 (2016-21 avg) - Nicaragua — 522.7 (2018) - Jamaica — 472.7 (2018) - Trinidad and Tobago — 339.7 (2014) - Brazil — 276.2 (2019) - Bahamas — 275.7 (2018) - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines — 181.8 (2018)
  - iudqnolq 4y ago
    Why did you specifically select the portion of that list that doesn't include the US? It shows the US is far worse than any rich country, as I claimed. Mexico, Rwanda, Sudan, and Mali rank 34-37 https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-killings-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-ki... Edit: The closest rich countries are - Malta, at ~2/3 the US - Luxumberg, ~ 1/2 - Canada, ~1/3 Malta is notably an anomaly: I can't think of any other rich democracy where journalists reporting on on government links to organized crime get killed by car bombs.

socialismisok 4y ago

This is cops in general, and not unique to the FBI.

notch656a 4y ago

Wait until you find out about the DHS. Unlike interactions with the FBI, it is illegal to record them*. They do not wear body cams. You have no right to a lawyer when interacting with them. They can jail you without charging you or accusing you of a crime. They can search you without probable cause or a warrant. They can put you in cuffs, take you to a hospital, and lie to doctors that you have drugs up your ass, all without a warrant, and then you'll be sent thousands in medical bills for medical services you didn't consent to**. They can stop you on the road without reasonable suspicion / PC / a warrant. They consistently have the among the worst human rights record and hire the lowest quality candidates, and arguably have the least oversight of any of the large federal law enforcement agencies. *at the border, where most people have this interaction with their child organization CBP. **Actually happened to me.

cryptonector 4y ago
> They can stop you on the road without reasonable suspicion / PC / a warrant. If you're within 100 miles of the border or the oceans. That covers something like 2/3rds of the U.S. population.

hericium 4y ago

> The FBI is more or less a legalized criminal organization that is funded by U.S. taxpayers, but is unelected and unaccountable to them This kinda reads like a description of the CIA. How many of these have you got there?

firmnoodle 4y ago
I think he's talking about the domestic operations. I would agree that the CIA and their sister organizations who operate internationally fit the description as well. Can't torture someone, well, take them to a friendly place where your buddy can torture them. Need to plant some FUD on a person? "an anonymous source in the intelligence community said that X did Y in Z." Unelected, Unaccountable and unchecked in every way.
- hericium 4y ago
  Frank Olson's[1] death is an example of possible/alleged CIA's internal operation. There are numerous other cases like this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson
  - virissimo 4y ago
    Discrediting Joseph McCarthy is another example of a CIA internal operation: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/48603/did-the-cia-feed-false-information-to-mccarthy-to-discredit-his-true-claims-that https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/48603/did-the-c....
- the_only_law 4y ago
  They can also dose US citizens with psychoactive substances without their consent or knowledge, start destroying the evidence and get away with it.
- RetpolineDrama 4y ago
  >Can't torture someone, well, take them to a friendly place where your buddy can torture them. That reminds me of the technical equivalent with five eyes, and I've never managed to figure out how that is _not_ treason. Oh, domestic organization X can't spy on you because of that pesky constitution, but they can "allow" a hostile agency from another country to do all the spying (and vice-versa) then "share" information. Seems pretty clearcut, our domestic agencies are conspiring with a foreign power to defraud US citizens of their constitutional rights. People should go to jail for that, but somehow it's all considered legal

tmaly 4y ago

You just got added to the list for saying that out loud.

yieldcrv 4y ago

Just in case stories like this dont negatively affect your view of law enforcement, think of it this way: There is a fixed number of people who can have their rights violated before the population doesn’t have confidence in law enforcement. And thats what we are seeing now.

scarface74 4y ago

> The FBI is more or less a legalized criminal organization that is funded by U.S. taxpayers, How is this any different than local law enforcement? I’m not saying you are implying this. But it’s strange that the same people who “back the blue” locally, want to “defund the FBI”.

exq 4y ago
Strange, these same people loved when the fbi in 2016...
Tozen 4y ago
I guess it depends on who is the one getting F'd over. If it's "them", then support. If it's "us", defund.

droptablemain 4y ago

As bad as the FBI is, it pales in comparison to the international terrorist activities of the CIA.