5 ms·

"it’s not about systemic bias against women or women being bad at computers or whatever. Rather, it’s about women being bad at dusting themselves off after fail

"it’s not about systemic bias against women or women being bad at computers or whatever. Rather, it’s about women being bad at dusting themselves off after failing" I believe this might be a direct result of presentation in movies. For example, She-Hulk had a scene where I'm quite convinced that it's hurting women, despite contrary intentions. The male Hulk had to overcome plenty of challenges to become halfway stable. The female Hulk skipped all that. But then, how do girls learn the value of grit if their role models don't need it?

voxl 4y ago
Wow, I never thought of that, i think it's even worse then you're letting on. She Hulk didn't need to because, by suggestion of the dialogue, women already have to control their internal anger to survive in the world we live in. It's a proclamation that you should already have everything figured out, because you're dealing with it every day. Yet, what if you don't have shit figured out? What if your confidence is cratered? What if you have crippling anxiety? These are not women specific issues, and the male role model "grit and hard work" model doesn't convey to men that you can lean on others. However, there are so many more male role models with different ways to grow and improve, whereas women are really treated as not needing to.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  > the male role model "grit and hard work" model doesn't convey to men that you can lean on others. Perhaps that hasn't been portrayed in a while, but then again, when was the last time men and boys actually had a role model and one with actual "grit"? Yes, we have male protagonists, and ones with substantial authority and muscle growth, but it's been a long time since I've actually seen a legit role model. The reason you can't easily convey a value about depending on others is that modern storytelling requires that every character must be significantly flawed. Having one character lean on others only is called for if that creates an opportunity where said character can be betrayed, which is useful for dramatic purposes. Look at any plot from a movie before the 2000's that's focused on a strong male character. Usually there's a subplot where he's got to rely on some other guy or inspire other men to take action when they otherwise wouldn't. > However, there are so many more male role models with different ways to grow and improve, whereas women are really treated as not needing to. This is reality. You are describing the quintessential male experience. Having to start with nothing and work your way up (or fail) is what it is to be a man. We are not told we are handsome or attractive by anyone but our mother unless we find a partner who can express that or if we are a 9 or above on the decile scale. Women aren't as greatly valued for their problem solving capability as they are for their beauty and reproductive capability. That's just how it is based on how the sexes differ, and it isn't even something that necessarily has to be fixed. People who deviate from the norm shouldn't be forced into roles that don't suit them as individuals, and those who it a norm shouldn't have to give up who they are in order to satisfy the minority.
  - sacrosancty 4y ago
    > This is reality. Indeed and it goes further than mere compliments. Women actually don't need to be successful at a career or be resilient to failures or "strong" - they can still have a good life with a family and be wealthy by being supported by a successful man. Men typically can't do that so they need all this grit and self-determination. All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in.
    - ravenstine 4y ago
      It depends on the individual and what one defines as a "career". Being an excellent spouse, mother, and homemaker are a form of career. It's a career that countless women over millennia gravitated to because they are the bearers of children, have less body strength on average, are vulnerable for 9 months at a time, and have far fewer ovum than there are available sperm. Some women will be on either end of the bell curve, but to be closer to the middle of the bell curve is nothing to be ashamed of. Instructing women to emulate everything typical of men is to indoctrinate them into self denial. Bearing and raising children and being a supportive spouse takes a form of grit all of its own. It's just a type of grit where the building of self-worth isn't required. I'm reminded of a time I was in a circle of people from various backgrounds, and the person in the middle of the circle asked the women to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are pretty by anyone besides their mother. Every single one of them raised their hands, even the ones who weren't conventionally attractive. The men were then asked to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are handsome by anyone besides their mother. Not a single man in the circle raised his hand, and this group included a few particularly popular individuals with the women in this cohort. That experience isn't representative of everyone, but it told me a lot. > All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in. Choosing a role in life is efficient. Spending one's entire life without learning the role one is suited for usually means a lot of wasted time and effort. Yet this is antithetical to what we tell young people today, which is that what is most important is who they are in the present as individuals. The individual is important, but individuality is overrated because everyone is an individual, more or less, and individuality provides no structure or framework. Past societies figured this out because life is simply too short to blow a bunch of time figuring things out from scratch. Today, we have longer life expectency and automation has made everyday life very easy, so we've fooled ourselves into thinking that it is our individuality that we should be exploring to the exclusion of selecting roles that take the greater society into consideration.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
There actually are plenty of cartoons and shows with female role models in positions where they have to overcome something big, much of which became more prominent since the 2000s. Specifically older shoujo anime feature female characters with arcs spanning more than a few episodes, akin to what most shounen anime is like. Even female characters in shounen tend to go through those arcs. The whole girlboss thing isn't that omnipresent, though there are still some leftovers of the whole Disney princess "just be as you are and it will be fine" era.
tchaffee 4y ago
Sure, with a data point of one. Now let's take Wonder Woman, who went through grueling training as a young girl. Needs far more data to stand up as a possible cause.
rhino369 4y ago
If there is a correlation, it's probably the opposite. That if women don't value grit, female writers aren't going to make it an important part of their story. But I'd guess its probably just more overcompensating for "damsel in distress" being the default narrative device for most of history.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  > That if women don't value grit, female writers aren't going to make it an important part of their story. Then the ones who are writing stories involving physical prowess don't have business doing so if they are expecting a sizable audience. Some people just want the fantasy that femininity magically creates masculine results. That's fine. The rest of the world isn't going to take it any more seriously than they would a film about a chimp being elected president.
  - tchaffee 4y ago
    > The rest of the world isn't going to take it any more seriously... ... than super heroes. Which are a hugely successful genre.
    - ravenstine 4y ago
      Super heroes only work if the rules of their fictional universe are believable enough that suspension of disbelief can work. Iron Man was (is?) hugely popular because it remains connected to reality enough that people can buy it. A film about chimp being elected president can be a smash hit, if not a classic masterpiece, as can most silly ideas. That doesn't mean it has the same chance to do so as a super hero flick. My point still stands. People might watch the chimp film out of morbid curiosity, and the might find it funny, but it would be unlikely to be considered "great" or even "good". Nobody seriously buys that there would be any circumstance that a non-human would be elected president. People can buy a world where, if a super power was obtainable, that those powers would be used for good and evil. It's a fundamental type of fantasy. Nobody fantasizes about being President Chimp. Yet even children fantasize of flying, shooting fireballs, being invincible, having gigantic muscles, and any number of things you'll find super heroes doing.
llampx 4y ago
You can't be seriously saying that Hollywood plays such a big role in people's culture and upbringing the world over, that a few movies would lead to such a fundamental difference? That's giving the movie industry more credit than they give themselves with the Oscars.
- spoiler 4y ago
  In a world where baby boomers (I forgot the politically neutral term, sorry) emotionally neglected their children, most turned to various media such as tv and internet (or other media) for their emotional management expectations, and role models.
  - stopagephobia 4y ago
    The polite term is People of Age or PoA for short. I appreciate your caring enough to ask!
  - drekipus 4y ago
    It's a tradition that's continued with YouTube replacing tv and Netflix with movies. My sister has 3 kids under 10. Every day they watch at least 3 movies, some of them atleast presentable as childlike learning, the others are just "whatever Netflix puts on"
    - Sharlin 4y ago
      Jesus. We didn't even have a VCR when I and my siblings were under 10. Movies were maybe once or twice a week thing.
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    Perhaps some of issues with emotional management expectations, roles models, etc. can be placed on baby boomers, but not solely for their parenting style. From what I have gathered over my life, it seems like many of the parents of baby boomers were far worse parents than the parents many baby boomers eventually became. I would argue the most damage has come from the near complete and utter erosion of social communities. As the saying goes, "It takes a village [community] to raise a child." I can't name a role model in my community. In fact, I have no community that I can access without the Internet. We went from "Survive together; thrive together" to "every man for himself" way too rapidly.
gamblor956 4y ago
For example, She-Hulk had a scene where I'm quite convinced that it's hurting women, despite contrary intentions. The male Hulk had to overcome plenty of challenges to become halfway stable. The female Hulk skipped all that. But that is the plot of pretty much every story about a woman in a role traditionally held by men, see for example Captain Marvel. She-Hulk skips that part because that's not what the show is about; there are literally hundreds of shows or movies you can watch if that's the plot line you're looking for.
Godel_unicode 4y ago
Constance Wu called this “whole human representation” in her interview on the daily show and compared it to the model minority problem.
joeman1000 4y ago
Mate.. I think this comment is insane. You imagine a marvel movie has more influence on someone than their own biological make-up?
- tomp 4y ago
  I mean, that's the entire premise behind the woke "society represses women/minorities" narrative.
- denkmoon 4y ago
  You think role models don't have an impact on people's development? or you don't think characters in movies serve as role models? Biology is powerful but it is not the only factor...
  - luckylion 4y ago
    That should be easy enough to check. How did the "Alien" movies affect women going into (interplanetary) shipping and the military? I think a lot of that hypothesis is hand-picking a few movies and then saying "and that's why xyz".
- orwin 4y ago
  I don't think a movie has this much influence, but yeah, role models have more influence on character than genetics, obviously. My father is parenting like his own father was. And with his wife than my grandfather did with my grandmother (and hopefully i'll manage to act the same). Also have the same politics and the same engagement my grandmother had (and same character, so he does has some flaws :) ). My father was adopted. As he isn't a hippie living in the middle of nowhere or a trophy wife living in a top10 US city in an affluent area thank to the money his partner earned, i'd say genetics have really little influence on your character. I mean, if you met old ladies from brittany, or from Ireland (and probably any rural area that din't get TV until the 70s), and compare them to those you met in CA or WA, it would be obvious than culture is the primary influence over genetics.
  - seti0Cha 4y ago
godelski 4y ago
I think the major problem with the show is that it doesn't follow the Hero's Journey that well[0]. The first few episodes feel forced because we don't really see Jennifer struggling and so we don't get that real call to action. We skip the call to adventure and jump right to supernatural aid and then skip the mentor and helper aspects. There's also problems that feel forced like the alien ship that just showed up for no reason, went away, and Bruce is on it 2 episodes later. But I think this is more of a problem of a show finding itself than anything else. As the series has continued I think it has gotten better. I don't think this is uncommon in a series and we find many very popular series which had very rough starts (Parks and Rec is a great example). Breaking the 4th wall is also quite difficult to pull off. But I do agree that this scene you're talking about doesn't make much sense at that point in the plot (probably would have been better latter). It felt more like a lecture to the audience (these jabs have improved but can still be cringy). Audiences like demonstration instead of instruction. But I think later episodes are better demonstrating instead of lecturing. I do want to point out that the adversities that men and women face are different. I can say that the first 3 episodes, as a man, I didn't really connect with Jennifer as a character. She seemed like a caricature (maybe women view this differently?). As the show progressed this changed though and it was easier to build attachment. I mean it is a superhero show, everyone is a bit of a caricature anyways, but it definitely had a rough start in hooking me. [0] One could argue that the show is following the hero's journey. From this perspective, getting super powers is the call to adventure. Her not wanting to be a Hulk is the refusal of the call. I'm not sure what the supernatural aid is. But crossing the first threshold would probably be her first case with Abomination.
jimbob45 4y ago
But then, how do girls learn the value of grit if their role models don't need it? I learned the value of a friendly demeanor and a permanent smile from SpongeBob and I’m not even a sponge. You don’t have to resemble a fictional character in any way for you to be able to idolize them.
whoIsYou 4y ago
Same thing in the new Mulan movie
robocat 4y ago
The Critical Drinker does a brilliant analysis of how don't modern female heroes often present hideously bad role models: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqp4_K7ik https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqp4_K7ik He also does a scathing analysis of She-Hulk: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rt0en0f_pU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rt0en0f_pU

voxl 4y ago

Wow, I never thought of that, i think it's even worse then you're letting on. She Hulk didn't need to because, by suggestion of the dialogue, women already have to control their internal anger to survive in the world we live in. It's a proclamation that you should already have everything figured out, because you're dealing with it every day. Yet, what if you don't have shit figured out? What if your confidence is cratered? What if you have crippling anxiety? These are not women specific issues, and the male role model "grit and hard work" model doesn't convey to men that you can lean on others. However, there are so many more male role models with different ways to grow and improve, whereas women are really treated as not needing to.

ravenstine 4y ago
> the male role model "grit and hard work" model doesn't convey to men that you can lean on others. Perhaps that hasn't been portrayed in a while, but then again, when was the last time men and boys actually had a role model and one with actual "grit"? Yes, we have male protagonists, and ones with substantial authority and muscle growth, but it's been a long time since I've actually seen a legit role model. The reason you can't easily convey a value about depending on others is that modern storytelling requires that every character must be significantly flawed. Having one character lean on others only is called for if that creates an opportunity where said character can be betrayed, which is useful for dramatic purposes. Look at any plot from a movie before the 2000's that's focused on a strong male character. Usually there's a subplot where he's got to rely on some other guy or inspire other men to take action when they otherwise wouldn't. > However, there are so many more male role models with different ways to grow and improve, whereas women are really treated as not needing to. This is reality. You are describing the quintessential male experience. Having to start with nothing and work your way up (or fail) is what it is to be a man. We are not told we are handsome or attractive by anyone but our mother unless we find a partner who can express that or if we are a 9 or above on the decile scale. Women aren't as greatly valued for their problem solving capability as they are for their beauty and reproductive capability. That's just how it is based on how the sexes differ, and it isn't even something that necessarily has to be fixed. People who deviate from the norm shouldn't be forced into roles that don't suit them as individuals, and those who it a norm shouldn't have to give up who they are in order to satisfy the minority.
- sacrosancty 4y ago
  > This is reality. Indeed and it goes further than mere compliments. Women actually don't need to be successful at a career or be resilient to failures or "strong" - they can still have a good life with a family and be wealthy by being supported by a successful man. Men typically can't do that so they need all this grit and self-determination. All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    It depends on the individual and what one defines as a "career". Being an excellent spouse, mother, and homemaker are a form of career. It's a career that countless women over millennia gravitated to because they are the bearers of children, have less body strength on average, are vulnerable for 9 months at a time, and have far fewer ovum than there are available sperm. Some women will be on either end of the bell curve, but to be closer to the middle of the bell curve is nothing to be ashamed of. Instructing women to emulate everything typical of men is to indoctrinate them into self denial. Bearing and raising children and being a supportive spouse takes a form of grit all of its own. It's just a type of grit where the building of self-worth isn't required. I'm reminded of a time I was in a circle of people from various backgrounds, and the person in the middle of the circle asked the women to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are pretty by anyone besides their mother. Every single one of them raised their hands, even the ones who weren't conventionally attractive. The men were then asked to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are handsome by anyone besides their mother. Not a single man in the circle raised his hand, and this group included a few particularly popular individuals with the women in this cohort. That experience isn't representative of everyone, but it told me a lot. > All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in. Choosing a role in life is efficient. Spending one's entire life without learning the role one is suited for usually means a lot of wasted time and effort. Yet this is antithetical to what we tell young people today, which is that what is most important is who they are in the present as individuals. The individual is important, but individuality is overrated because everyone is an individual, more or less, and individuality provides no structure or framework. Past societies figured this out because life is simply too short to blow a bunch of time figuring things out from scratch. Today, we have longer life expectency and automation has made everyday life very easy, so we've fooled ourselves into thinking that it is our individuality that we should be exploring to the exclusion of selecting roles that take the greater society into consideration.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

There actually are plenty of cartoons and shows with female role models in positions where they have to overcome something big, much of which became more prominent since the 2000s. Specifically older shoujo anime feature female characters with arcs spanning more than a few episodes, akin to what most shounen anime is like. Even female characters in shounen tend to go through those arcs. The whole girlboss thing isn't that omnipresent, though there are still some leftovers of the whole Disney princess "just be as you are and it will be fine" era.

tchaffee 4y ago

Sure, with a data point of one. Now let's take Wonder Woman, who went through grueling training as a young girl. Needs far more data to stand up as a possible cause.

rhino369 4y ago

If there is a correlation, it's probably the opposite. That if women don't value grit, female writers aren't going to make it an important part of their story. But I'd guess its probably just more overcompensating for "damsel in distress" being the default narrative device for most of history.

ravenstine 4y ago
> That if women don't value grit, female writers aren't going to make it an important part of their story. Then the ones who are writing stories involving physical prowess don't have business doing so if they are expecting a sizable audience. Some people just want the fantasy that femininity magically creates masculine results. That's fine. The rest of the world isn't going to take it any more seriously than they would a film about a chimp being elected president.
- tchaffee 4y ago
  > The rest of the world isn't going to take it any more seriously... ... than super heroes. Which are a hugely successful genre.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Super heroes only work if the rules of their fictional universe are believable enough that suspension of disbelief can work. Iron Man was (is?) hugely popular because it remains connected to reality enough that people can buy it. A film about chimp being elected president can be a smash hit, if not a classic masterpiece, as can most silly ideas. That doesn't mean it has the same chance to do so as a super hero flick. My point still stands. People might watch the chimp film out of morbid curiosity, and the might find it funny, but it would be unlikely to be considered "great" or even "good". Nobody seriously buys that there would be any circumstance that a non-human would be elected president. People can buy a world where, if a super power was obtainable, that those powers would be used for good and evil. It's a fundamental type of fantasy. Nobody fantasizes about being President Chimp. Yet even children fantasize of flying, shooting fireballs, being invincible, having gigantic muscles, and any number of things you'll find super heroes doing.

llampx 4y ago

You can't be seriously saying that Hollywood plays such a big role in people's culture and upbringing the world over, that a few movies would lead to such a fundamental difference? That's giving the movie industry more credit than they give themselves with the Oscars.

spoiler 4y ago
In a world where baby boomers (I forgot the politically neutral term, sorry) emotionally neglected their children, most turned to various media such as tv and internet (or other media) for their emotional management expectations, and role models.
- stopagephobia 4y ago
  The polite term is People of Age or PoA for short. I appreciate your caring enough to ask!
- drekipus 4y ago
  It's a tradition that's continued with YouTube replacing tv and Netflix with movies. My sister has 3 kids under 10. Every day they watch at least 3 movies, some of them atleast presentable as childlike learning, the others are just "whatever Netflix puts on"
  - Sharlin 4y ago
    Jesus. We didn't even have a VCR when I and my siblings were under 10. Movies were maybe once or twice a week thing.
- hirvi74 4y ago
  Perhaps some of issues with emotional management expectations, roles models, etc. can be placed on baby boomers, but not solely for their parenting style. From what I have gathered over my life, it seems like many of the parents of baby boomers were far worse parents than the parents many baby boomers eventually became. I would argue the most damage has come from the near complete and utter erosion of social communities. As the saying goes, "It takes a village [community] to raise a child." I can't name a role model in my community. In fact, I have no community that I can access without the Internet. We went from "Survive together; thrive together" to "every man for himself" way too rapidly.

gamblor956 4y ago

For example, She-Hulk had a scene where I'm quite convinced that it's hurting women, despite contrary intentions. The male Hulk had to overcome plenty of challenges to become halfway stable. The female Hulk skipped all that. But that is the plot of pretty much every story about a woman in a role traditionally held by men, see for example Captain Marvel. She-Hulk skips that part because that's not what the show is about; there are literally hundreds of shows or movies you can watch if that's the plot line you're looking for.

Godel_unicode 4y ago

Constance Wu called this “whole human representation” in her interview on the daily show and compared it to the model minority problem.

joeman1000 4y ago

Mate.. I think this comment is insane. You imagine a marvel movie has more influence on someone than their own biological make-up?

tomp 4y ago
I mean, that's the entire premise behind the woke "society represses women/minorities" narrative.
denkmoon 4y ago
You think role models don't have an impact on people's development? or you don't think characters in movies serve as role models? Biology is powerful but it is not the only factor...
- luckylion 4y ago
  That should be easy enough to check. How did the "Alien" movies affect women going into (interplanetary) shipping and the military? I think a lot of that hypothesis is hand-picking a few movies and then saying "and that's why xyz".
orwin 4y ago
I don't think a movie has this much influence, but yeah, role models have more influence on character than genetics, obviously. My father is parenting like his own father was. And with his wife than my grandfather did with my grandmother (and hopefully i'll manage to act the same). Also have the same politics and the same engagement my grandmother had (and same character, so he does has some flaws :) ). My father was adopted. As he isn't a hippie living in the middle of nowhere or a trophy wife living in a top10 US city in an affluent area thank to the money his partner earned, i'd say genetics have really little influence on your character. I mean, if you met old ladies from brittany, or from Ireland (and probably any rural area that din't get TV until the 70s), and compare them to those you met in CA or WA, it would be obvious than culture is the primary influence over genetics.
- seti0Cha 4y ago

godelski 4y ago

I think the major problem with the show is that it doesn't follow the Hero's Journey that well[0]. The first few episodes feel forced because we don't really see Jennifer struggling and so we don't get that real call to action. We skip the call to adventure and jump right to supernatural aid and then skip the mentor and helper aspects. There's also problems that feel forced like the alien ship that just showed up for no reason, went away, and Bruce is on it 2 episodes later. But I think this is more of a problem of a show finding itself than anything else. As the series has continued I think it has gotten better. I don't think this is uncommon in a series and we find many very popular series which had very rough starts (Parks and Rec is a great example). Breaking the 4th wall is also quite difficult to pull off. But I do agree that this scene you're talking about doesn't make much sense at that point in the plot (probably would have been better latter). It felt more like a lecture to the audience (these jabs have improved but can still be cringy). Audiences like demonstration instead of instruction. But I think later episodes are better demonstrating instead of lecturing. I do want to point out that the adversities that men and women face are different. I can say that the first 3 episodes, as a man, I didn't really connect with Jennifer as a character. She seemed like a caricature (maybe women view this differently?). As the show progressed this changed though and it was easier to build attachment. I mean it is a superhero show, everyone is a bit of a caricature anyways, but it definitely had a rough start in hooking me. [0] One could argue that the show is following the hero's journey. From this perspective, getting super powers is the call to adventure. Her not wanting to be a Hulk is the refusal of the call. I'm not sure what the supernatural aid is. But crossing the first threshold would probably be her first case with Abomination.

jimbob45 4y ago

But then, how do girls learn the value of grit if their role models don't need it? I learned the value of a friendly demeanor and a permanent smile from SpongeBob and I’m not even a sponge. You don’t have to resemble a fictional character in any way for you to be able to idolize them.

whoIsYou 4y ago

Same thing in the new Mulan movie

robocat 4y ago

The Critical Drinker does a brilliant analysis of how don't modern female heroes often present hideously bad role models: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqp4_K7ik https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqp4_K7ik He also does a scathing analysis of She-Hulk: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rt0en0f_pU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rt0en0f_pU