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I like USB-C and would even be in favour of the iPhone using USB-C, but I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than

by kypro 4y ago

I like USB-C and would even be in favour of the iPhone using USB-C, but I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves. I do kind of get it though. It's probably better for a whole host of reasons if electronics all used the same cords, but I guess you could make that argument for a lot of things. There would be benefits if there was only one mobile operating system or if all mobiles used the same interchangeable batteries, for example. When a standard makes sense companies will generally adopt it naturally. The fact so many manufacturers use USB-C today just proves that this probably doesn't need to be enforced. I suppose it's just strange to me this would even need to be a law or that there are people paid to pass laws like this.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
Electronics companies decide what's best for them. Competition in the smart phone market is done, so consumers no longer have a say. These kinds of interoperability standards are great and would love to see more of them internationally.
- kypro 4y ago
  Consumers still don't have a say. Now instead of companies choosing what hardware & features are best for their product, and you then choosing products based on your preferences, EU regulators are now forcing companies (and therefore you) to use whatever they think is best. I think in the case of USB-C it's not too bad just because USB-C is widely agreed to be a good connector that's already widely adopted, but there have been plenty of bad connectors in the past which in theory the EU could now be deciding consumer electronics companies are forced to use. This also assumes USB-C is always the best option which I doubt. I'm sure there are products which given the application, size or price point might suite a different cable better. Technology also moves on and connectors change for a reason. Now we're going to be stuck with outdated hardware until EU regulators update laws. At which companies and you as the consumer will be forced to adopt that new connector regardless of your preferences.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
    The idea this somehow limits consumer choice is nonsense. It opens up choice because now I don't have to pay insane markups for proprietary items. Printer ink, razor blades, and so on are other examples besides connector cables where companies' `innovations' tend to make things worse for the consumer. Even if the new cable is technically slightly better, the other factors of price, availability, and lack of inter-operability ultimately make things worse for the consumer. Also, you'd likely have more luck getting elected officials to change EU policies than you would have with mega company board members changing profit-maximizing strategies.
  - riffraff 4y ago
    The EU consulted with phone producers before standardizing on micro-USB, then again before standardizing on USB-C, and it will do again when something better comes up. They have explicitly called out not regulating wireless charging for this reason. Yours is a valid concern, but it's not grounded in reality.
    - amelius 4y ago
      > They have explicitly called out not regulating wireless charging for this reason. Doesn't wireless charging present even more problems, given the meager efficiency compared to using wires?
      - riffraff 4y ago
        I think the point is that there's no clear consensus on a "winner" right now. USB-C (back then micro-USB) had vast backing, had been in use for a while in many places and was "good enough" for everyone (except Apple-only-on-iphones). It's unclear what is the equivalent for wireless right now.
    - Krkrmfnfmmd 4y ago
      Who exactly did they consult with?
have_faith 4y ago
> I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves What proportion of phone consumers have an informed opinion on charging technology? Why would the electronics companies work in a way that benefits everyone/the environment instead of themselves. > I guess you could make that argument for a lot of things We do, we have standards for a ridiculous amount of things no one ever thinks about. > There would be benefits if there was only one mobile operating system or if all mobiles used the same interchangeable batterie Standardising the operating system would create a monopoly and have no obvious society wide benefits. Whereas cables can be made by anyone competent. It would be more prudent to mandate user replacable batteries before thinking about if such a specific battery standard could feasibly work. Something you can probably make a good argument for.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > Whereas cables can be made by anyone competent. Like the myriad businesses already making lightning cables?
  - saurik 4y ago
    That point maybe sounds smart, but doesn't actually make any sense to have added, as I can respond with "yes!!" and it doesn't contradict anything about the argument you are ostensibly trying to undermine. That (importantly) said, the new statement isn't even a true thing to be trying to note anyway in this context: unlike USB-C, which is an industry standard, Apple owns lightning and so if one were to imagine forcing the world to standardize on it it would actually CREATE a monopoly.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I misinterpreted the comment I responded to and had the reasoning backwards.
  - Xelynega 4y ago
    I think it was pretty obvious from context clues that they were talking about USB since it's standardized. If lightning were standardized then other companies would be able to produce the cables. I don't see what your point is.
rrwo 4y ago
> I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves This isn't something created by faceless bureaucrats behind closed doors. The "regulators" are the EU Parliament, who are elected by residents in the various countries. The issue has been talked about for a few years, and was voted on 603 to 13, that's over 96% (including abstentions).
- tephra 4y ago
  More than a few years, this particular legislation yes but it really started in 2009 where they wanted to mandate micro-usb.
fy20 4y ago
Are you old enough to remember the early 2000s when every phone and portable media player had it's own charger, which often wasn't even transferable between devices by the same manufacturer? It led to lots of old chargers when devices were replaced, which were useless for anything else (I remember having bags of cables and chargers). And if you wanted a second charger for whatever reason (this was before you needed to charge your device every 3 hours), you needed to find the specific charger for your device. If it was a few years old, it might not even be possible to purchase one. Then almost by magic everyone switched to micro USB. You could charge different devices from different manufacturers with the same cable. This wasn't some feat of magic, it was because the European Commission worked to bring manufacturers to an agreement on a common charging standard. Well, everyone except Apple, who did actually sign the agreement. They just decided to bundle a dongle to be compliant. Mini-USB was introduced in 2000, so manufactures had plenty of time to choose a common interface themselves, but decided not to. Even amongst Apple's own devices it is a mess. To charge an Apple Pencil with an iPad Pro you need not one, but two adapters.
- KerrickStaley 4y ago
  Micro-USB is not the same as Mini-USB. Mini-USB was introduced in 2000; Micro-USB was introduced in 2007.
  - fy20 4y ago
    GP said: > When a standard makes sense companies will generally adopt it naturally. My point was that manufacturers could have done so (with Mini-USB) if they wanted to, but chose not to. Until smart phones came around, most phones were more than thick enough to have a Mini-USB port (and a lot did).
- izacus 4y ago
  In most cases, yes, people writing these comments are too young to remember era before Apple brought shining and light to their existence.
- givinguflac 4y ago
  | Even amongst Apple's own devices it is a mess. To charge an Apple Pencil with an iPad Pro you need not one, but two adapters. I’m curious what you’re referring to. I charge my Apple Pencil while connected to my iPad, and my iPad chargers via usb c. No adapters for me?
danielfoster 4y ago
I agree. What happens if companies want to make something better or technology improves? The way the legislation is written, will help consumers in the short-term but could stifle innovation in the long-term. Imagine if the EU had mandated DC power ports or CD-ROM drives two decades ago. It took this long for the EU to pass common standard legislation after talking about it for years. I can't imagine they will be any faster in updating it if USB-C becomes outdated.
- kaba0 4y ago
  How fast can charging ports evolve even in theory, given that they have to be somewhat backwards compatible to begin with? I think the law can keep up with all these iterations of lightning cables apple invented during its free reign over their port.
  - danielfoster 4y ago
    Companies are now disincentived to innovate because there is no guarantee money spent developing a new standard will result in something allowed to be sold. No one can predict new technology. Ideally the law should have an end date or require regular renewal.
kaba0 4y ago
The very Adam Smith even have said that capitalism only work in well-defined markets. I don’t see how a more-or-less democratically elected entity would have a negative effect on competition by upholding some consumer-centric rules.
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
> I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves. It's not that, it's that companies know what's good for them and consumers are a secondary consideration, if that. Consider EU mobile phone roaming regulation: it's an unalloyed good. We've gone from expensive and inconvenient roaming charges and roaming add-ons to free roaming at almost no increase in prices. There was initially some increase in very low priced plans yet I have a 2.65 euro a month 1GB data only plan (with full roaming) which is a blindingly good deal.

by kypro 4y ago

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago

Electronics companies decide what's best for them. Competition in the smart phone market is done, so consumers no longer have a say. These kinds of interoperability standards are great and would love to see more of them internationally.

kypro 4y ago
Consumers still don't have a say. Now instead of companies choosing what hardware & features are best for their product, and you then choosing products based on your preferences, EU regulators are now forcing companies (and therefore you) to use whatever they think is best. I think in the case of USB-C it's not too bad just because USB-C is widely agreed to be a good connector that's already widely adopted, but there have been plenty of bad connectors in the past which in theory the EU could now be deciding consumer electronics companies are forced to use. This also assumes USB-C is always the best option which I doubt. I'm sure there are products which given the application, size or price point might suite a different cable better. Technology also moves on and connectors change for a reason. Now we're going to be stuck with outdated hardware until EU regulators update laws. At which companies and you as the consumer will be forced to adopt that new connector regardless of your preferences.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  The idea this somehow limits consumer choice is nonsense. It opens up choice because now I don't have to pay insane markups for proprietary items. Printer ink, razor blades, and so on are other examples besides connector cables where companies' `innovations' tend to make things worse for the consumer. Even if the new cable is technically slightly better, the other factors of price, availability, and lack of inter-operability ultimately make things worse for the consumer. Also, you'd likely have more luck getting elected officials to change EU policies than you would have with mega company board members changing profit-maximizing strategies.
- riffraff 4y ago
  The EU consulted with phone producers before standardizing on micro-USB, then again before standardizing on USB-C, and it will do again when something better comes up. They have explicitly called out not regulating wireless charging for this reason. Yours is a valid concern, but it's not grounded in reality.
  - amelius 4y ago
    > They have explicitly called out not regulating wireless charging for this reason. Doesn't wireless charging present even more problems, given the meager efficiency compared to using wires?
    - riffraff 4y ago
      I think the point is that there's no clear consensus on a "winner" right now. USB-C (back then micro-USB) had vast backing, had been in use for a while in many places and was "good enough" for everyone (except Apple-only-on-iphones). It's unclear what is the equivalent for wireless right now.
  - Krkrmfnfmmd 4y ago
    Who exactly did they consult with?

have_faith 4y ago

> I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves What proportion of phone consumers have an informed opinion on charging technology? Why would the electronics companies work in a way that benefits everyone/the environment instead of themselves. > I guess you could make that argument for a lot of things We do, we have standards for a ridiculous amount of things no one ever thinks about. > There would be benefits if there was only one mobile operating system or if all mobiles used the same interchangeable batterie Standardising the operating system would create a monopoly and have no obvious society wide benefits. Whereas cables can be made by anyone competent. It would be more prudent to mandate user replacable batteries before thinking about if such a specific battery standard could feasibly work. Something you can probably make a good argument for.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> Whereas cables can be made by anyone competent. Like the myriad businesses already making lightning cables?
- saurik 4y ago
  That point maybe sounds smart, but doesn't actually make any sense to have added, as I can respond with "yes!!" and it doesn't contradict anything about the argument you are ostensibly trying to undermine. That (importantly) said, the new statement isn't even a true thing to be trying to note anyway in this context: unlike USB-C, which is an industry standard, Apple owns lightning and so if one were to imagine forcing the world to standardize on it it would actually CREATE a monopoly.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I misinterpreted the comment I responded to and had the reasoning backwards.
- Xelynega 4y ago
  I think it was pretty obvious from context clues that they were talking about USB since it's standardized. If lightning were standardized then other companies would be able to produce the cables. I don't see what your point is.

rrwo 4y ago

> I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves This isn't something created by faceless bureaucrats behind closed doors. The "regulators" are the EU Parliament, who are elected by residents in the various countries. The issue has been talked about for a few years, and was voted on 603 to 13, that's over 96% (including abstentions).

tephra 4y ago
More than a few years, this particular legislation yes but it really started in 2009 where they wanted to mandate micro-usb.

fy20 4y ago

Are you old enough to remember the early 2000s when every phone and portable media player had it's own charger, which often wasn't even transferable between devices by the same manufacturer? It led to lots of old chargers when devices were replaced, which were useless for anything else (I remember having bags of cables and chargers). And if you wanted a second charger for whatever reason (this was before you needed to charge your device every 3 hours), you needed to find the specific charger for your device. If it was a few years old, it might not even be possible to purchase one. Then almost by magic everyone switched to micro USB. You could charge different devices from different manufacturers with the same cable. This wasn't some feat of magic, it was because the European Commission worked to bring manufacturers to an agreement on a common charging standard. Well, everyone except Apple, who did actually sign the agreement. They just decided to bundle a dongle to be compliant. Mini-USB was introduced in 2000, so manufactures had plenty of time to choose a common interface themselves, but decided not to. Even amongst Apple's own devices it is a mess. To charge an Apple Pencil with an iPad Pro you need not one, but two adapters.

KerrickStaley 4y ago
Micro-USB is not the same as Mini-USB. Mini-USB was introduced in 2000; Micro-USB was introduced in 2007.
- fy20 4y ago
  GP said: > When a standard makes sense companies will generally adopt it naturally. My point was that manufacturers could have done so (with Mini-USB) if they wanted to, but chose not to. Until smart phones came around, most phones were more than thick enough to have a Mini-USB port (and a lot did).
izacus 4y ago
In most cases, yes, people writing these comments are too young to remember era before Apple brought shining and light to their existence.
givinguflac 4y ago
| Even amongst Apple's own devices it is a mess. To charge an Apple Pencil with an iPad Pro you need not one, but two adapters. I’m curious what you’re referring to. I charge my Apple Pencil while connected to my iPad, and my iPad chargers via usb c. No adapters for me?

danielfoster 4y ago

I agree. What happens if companies want to make something better or technology improves? The way the legislation is written, will help consumers in the short-term but could stifle innovation in the long-term. Imagine if the EU had mandated DC power ports or CD-ROM drives two decades ago. It took this long for the EU to pass common standard legislation after talking about it for years. I can't imagine they will be any faster in updating it if USB-C becomes outdated.

kaba0 4y ago
How fast can charging ports evolve even in theory, given that they have to be somewhat backwards compatible to begin with? I think the law can keep up with all these iterations of lightning cables apple invented during its free reign over their port.
- danielfoster 4y ago
  Companies are now disincentived to innovate because there is no guarantee money spent developing a new standard will result in something allowed to be sold. No one can predict new technology. Ideally the law should have an end date or require regular renewal.

kaba0 4y ago

The very Adam Smith even have said that capitalism only work in well-defined markets. I don’t see how a more-or-less democratically elected entity would have a negative effect on competition by upholding some consumer-centric rules.

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

> I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves. It's not that, it's that companies know what's good for them and consumers are a secondary consideration, if that. Consider EU mobile phone roaming regulation: it's an unalloyed good. We've gone from expensive and inconvenient roaming charges and roaming add-ons to free roaming at almost no increase in prices. There was initially some increase in very low priced plans yet I have a 2.65 euro a month 1GB data only plan (with full roaming) which is a blindingly good deal.