16 ms·

I spoke to a long-time Microsoft and Facebook eng leader who left his post as a nonprofit software CEO due to burnout and then spent many months languishing and

I spoke to a long-time Microsoft and Facebook eng leader who left his post as a nonprofit software CEO due to burnout and then spent many months languishing and spiralling into depression. He actually decided to get a job as an Amazon warehouse worker for 6 weeks for exactly the reason OP is struggling with: to get structure. > In November, I suddenly thought, "I should at least get some sort of job somewhere just to have some regularity to my schedule, to enforce some daily practices". My number one priority was just to have structured work that would force me to get up every day—work that was very different from white collar jobs, in that I did not want to be asked to make a lot of decisions everyday. > I didn't want the stress of managing people and teams. I didn't want the politics of subjective decisions being debated amongst team members. I wanted literally to be told what to do every day and I wanted that structure to be rigorous. I strongly felt that would help me get out of my depression. https://www.jasonshen.com/120/ https://www.jasonshen.com/120/ Update: posted this on HN since it seems to resonate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33072083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33072083

jonasdegendt 4y ago
I can't speak for Amazon but I had an order picking job at a Volvo warehouse in college, and despite having to hit a certain number of picked items every day it was oddly relaxing. Once you got good at it you could zoom through your day on auto pilot. Drive to aisle X, pick up N boxes at rack Y, rinse and repeat.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
localhost 4y ago
I remember Philip! Wow. That's some story. Thanks for sharing it.
shakezula 4y ago
I have found myself day-dreaming about a manual labor job for many of the same reasons. I am supremely jealous of my friends who work these types of jobs and can "leave it at the door" when they come home. I can't do that as well, even when I try to enforce boundaries. Slack, emails, my home office, etc... make it impossible to shut it all out. I'm considering tearing down my home office and working solely from a coffee shop because of it.
- nimbleplum40 4y ago
  This is one of the biggest benefits to working from the office, at least for me. The mental shift between home and work is so much easier when they are very distinct physical places.
  - shakezula 4y ago
    I genuinely miss working in an office because of this, and am looking to return to one soon, but right now it seems that just about every company has a hiring freeze in place for the foreseeable future. A hybrid 3-4 in office / 1-2 out of office per week seems to be prime for my personal and social values at work.
- rejectfinite 4y ago
  Why are you on your work PC/phone after work? Or is it all the same? I notice a lot of people do not have personal computers anymore... like back in the 90s. For home office I shut off the work PC and turn on the gaming PC where I am not logged in on work accounts. Work phone on disturb mode. Or go take a walk. Its not "impossible to shut it all out"
  - Bakary 4y ago
    This reminds me of a fairly insightful meme: Tired of looking at Bad screen, can't wait to get home to look at Good screen
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      Back when I worked my last job. I’d find that when work was scarce (pretty common mostly thanks to an impenetrable bureaucracy) My brain would wake up and I would suddenly feel motivated to think about and work on new projects, then I’d get home and for some reason not have the energy and just pass out instead.
      - Bakary 4y ago
PakG1 4y ago
The best work experience I ever had was working in a warehouse where I just unpacked and repacked lumber all day. It was a lot of nonstop lifting. I felt happy when I went home because I felt like I worked hard and got stuff done and it was really good exercise too. I did that work because I didn't know what I REALLY wanted to do after quitting my job (disillusionment and naive startup dreams without knowing what it took to succeed) and I wanted to experience hard work that wasn't in an office (i.e. work in the trenches). Someone I knew told me I could work in his warehouse. It's too bad that it was so low pay. If the pay wasn't the issue, I wonder if staying at that kind of job would actually be really good for me. I would be physically healthy, my mind would be clear and refreshed all the time, and I would feel good about having worked hard every day. Would the positive effect still last if I did that work for years, or was the positive effect only temporary because it was a novel experience to me at the time (and I didn't care about the low pay at the time)? Interesting to consider.
- mattmanser 4y ago
  I did a bunch of warehouse jobs when I was at uni. Some of the most depressing and soul crushing jobs I've ever had. The worst ever one I had was pulling a massive roll of sandpaper to a line and then another guy pressed a button to cut it. Then we lifted the cut sandpaper on to a pile. Repeat for 8 hours. I didn't stay in that one past one day, far too boring. Let's not romanticise these jobs. I think you're confusing the endorphins from exercise, which most warehouse jobs don't need, with the job. Most warehouse jobs completely suck.
  - reanimus 4y ago
    I think you can both have true experiences when it comes to this. Some people enjoy the monotony of repetitive tasks, whereas others want to gargle glass after 10 minutes of it. I certainly know I don't want to work a job that physically exhausts me every day, but some people do enjoy that. I don't think it's romanticizing to say that good-paying warehouse work with proper benefits would be a boon to a LOT of people.
    - 4y ago
pid-1 4y ago
When I was an intern I did a lot of boring work in data centers now and then. Unloading servers from boxes, labeling everything, making connections, installing stuff on racks, etc... It was almost therapeutic.
Bakary 4y ago
This is disturbing on a deep level. A person taking on such a job for self-discovery as if it were tourism. Most workers in that warehouse need those jobs, including those 60 year olds the ex-CEO felt sorry for. It reads like a parody of tech culture.
- kevinventullo 4y ago
  You know there’s probably an opportunity to offer this as an “experience” to SV types, a la dude ranches.
  - EddySchauHai 4y ago
    Please don't suggest this, it might end up happening!
  - verisimilidude 4y ago
    I’m disgusted to say you could probably make A LOT of money with this idea.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Should I feel bad for Amazon?
  - Bakary 4y ago
    I don't understand what you are referring to.
- the_doctah 4y ago
  >It reads like a parody of tech culture. I don't know, I feel like this is just a retread of "Office Space" and office employees yearning to do construction work.
  - Bakary 4y ago
    The important distinction is the much larger financial and professional freedom of the person in question than the Office Space characters
fudged71 4y ago
As a burned out founder with ADHD, I took a break from tech and did a year as a personal trainer at a big box gym. It was such a great difference from tech work: physical movement, human interaction, paper-based, etc. The high levels of accountability (in addition to physical movement) were extremely satisfying. I dream of a future of tech work that is more similar to the gym, rather than sitting at a desk. Some kind of augmented reality work space where you intentionally add physical friction (reaching, pulling, pushing), physical objects, human interactions, etc and lots of standing. I imagine the mental rewards of this approach would be really interesting, and you might finish the work day feeling physically energized.
- pj_mukh 4y ago
  This. So much this. Over quarantine I found myself spending increasing amount of time cooking after coding time. Just because the difference of doing something productive with your hands is so sorely missed. If something bridged those two, like Minority report but with even more movement, it would be gold. Someone ITT mentioned warehouse jobs and workout endorphins coloring our view, but I think its more missing just moving things around with your hands.
- Aaronstotle 4y ago
  This is a great comment, I've found myself wishing for a work environment that provides us with these human elements. We are animals that are designed to move! Walking meetings, some type of AR technology so we can perform email responses/research while moving, and physical interaction with digital systems is the future I want.
  - rogerkirkness 4y ago
    Check out this post that Stephen Wolfram did re: walking meetings and working. https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
magpi3 4y ago
I think what the person is asking for specifically is some kind of responsibility to an external force that will force them to keep a schedule. The thing in my life that most rigidly enforces a schedule on me is definitely not my job. It's my dog. No weekends off there, and I haven't slept past 6:30am in years.

jonasdegendt 4y ago

I can't speak for Amazon but I had an order picking job at a Volvo warehouse in college, and despite having to hit a certain number of picked items every day it was oddly relaxing. Once you got good at it you could zoom through your day on auto pilot. Drive to aisle X, pick up N boxes at rack Y, rinse and repeat.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

localhost 4y ago

I remember Philip! Wow. That's some story. Thanks for sharing it.

shakezula 4y ago

I have found myself day-dreaming about a manual labor job for many of the same reasons. I am supremely jealous of my friends who work these types of jobs and can "leave it at the door" when they come home. I can't do that as well, even when I try to enforce boundaries. Slack, emails, my home office, etc... make it impossible to shut it all out. I'm considering tearing down my home office and working solely from a coffee shop because of it.

nimbleplum40 4y ago
This is one of the biggest benefits to working from the office, at least for me. The mental shift between home and work is so much easier when they are very distinct physical places.
- shakezula 4y ago
  I genuinely miss working in an office because of this, and am looking to return to one soon, but right now it seems that just about every company has a hiring freeze in place for the foreseeable future. A hybrid 3-4 in office / 1-2 out of office per week seems to be prime for my personal and social values at work.
rejectfinite 4y ago
Why are you on your work PC/phone after work? Or is it all the same? I notice a lot of people do not have personal computers anymore... like back in the 90s. For home office I shut off the work PC and turn on the gaming PC where I am not logged in on work accounts. Work phone on disturb mode. Or go take a walk. Its not "impossible to shut it all out"
- Bakary 4y ago
  This reminds me of a fairly insightful meme: Tired of looking at Bad screen, can't wait to get home to look at Good screen
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    Back when I worked my last job. I’d find that when work was scarce (pretty common mostly thanks to an impenetrable bureaucracy) My brain would wake up and I would suddenly feel motivated to think about and work on new projects, then I’d get home and for some reason not have the energy and just pass out instead.
    - Bakary 4y ago

PakG1 4y ago

The best work experience I ever had was working in a warehouse where I just unpacked and repacked lumber all day. It was a lot of nonstop lifting. I felt happy when I went home because I felt like I worked hard and got stuff done and it was really good exercise too. I did that work because I didn't know what I REALLY wanted to do after quitting my job (disillusionment and naive startup dreams without knowing what it took to succeed) and I wanted to experience hard work that wasn't in an office (i.e. work in the trenches). Someone I knew told me I could work in his warehouse. It's too bad that it was so low pay. If the pay wasn't the issue, I wonder if staying at that kind of job would actually be really good for me. I would be physically healthy, my mind would be clear and refreshed all the time, and I would feel good about having worked hard every day. Would the positive effect still last if I did that work for years, or was the positive effect only temporary because it was a novel experience to me at the time (and I didn't care about the low pay at the time)? Interesting to consider.

mattmanser 4y ago
I did a bunch of warehouse jobs when I was at uni. Some of the most depressing and soul crushing jobs I've ever had. The worst ever one I had was pulling a massive roll of sandpaper to a line and then another guy pressed a button to cut it. Then we lifted the cut sandpaper on to a pile. Repeat for 8 hours. I didn't stay in that one past one day, far too boring. Let's not romanticise these jobs. I think you're confusing the endorphins from exercise, which most warehouse jobs don't need, with the job. Most warehouse jobs completely suck.
- reanimus 4y ago
  I think you can both have true experiences when it comes to this. Some people enjoy the monotony of repetitive tasks, whereas others want to gargle glass after 10 minutes of it. I certainly know I don't want to work a job that physically exhausts me every day, but some people do enjoy that. I don't think it's romanticizing to say that good-paying warehouse work with proper benefits would be a boon to a LOT of people.
  - 4y ago

pid-1 4y ago

When I was an intern I did a lot of boring work in data centers now and then. Unloading servers from boxes, labeling everything, making connections, installing stuff on racks, etc... It was almost therapeutic.

Bakary 4y ago

This is disturbing on a deep level. A person taking on such a job for self-discovery as if it were tourism. Most workers in that warehouse need those jobs, including those 60 year olds the ex-CEO felt sorry for. It reads like a parody of tech culture.

kevinventullo 4y ago
You know there’s probably an opportunity to offer this as an “experience” to SV types, a la dude ranches.
- EddySchauHai 4y ago
  Please don't suggest this, it might end up happening!
- verisimilidude 4y ago
  I’m disgusted to say you could probably make A LOT of money with this idea.
smoldesu 4y ago
Should I feel bad for Amazon?
- Bakary 4y ago
  I don't understand what you are referring to.
the_doctah 4y ago
>It reads like a parody of tech culture. I don't know, I feel like this is just a retread of "Office Space" and office employees yearning to do construction work.
- Bakary 4y ago
  The important distinction is the much larger financial and professional freedom of the person in question than the Office Space characters

fudged71 4y ago

As a burned out founder with ADHD, I took a break from tech and did a year as a personal trainer at a big box gym. It was such a great difference from tech work: physical movement, human interaction, paper-based, etc. The high levels of accountability (in addition to physical movement) were extremely satisfying. I dream of a future of tech work that is more similar to the gym, rather than sitting at a desk. Some kind of augmented reality work space where you intentionally add physical friction (reaching, pulling, pushing), physical objects, human interactions, etc and lots of standing. I imagine the mental rewards of this approach would be really interesting, and you might finish the work day feeling physically energized.

pj_mukh 4y ago
This. So much this. Over quarantine I found myself spending increasing amount of time cooking after coding time. Just because the difference of doing something productive with your hands is so sorely missed. If something bridged those two, like Minority report but with even more movement, it would be gold. Someone ITT mentioned warehouse jobs and workout endorphins coloring our view, but I think its more missing just moving things around with your hands.
Aaronstotle 4y ago
This is a great comment, I've found myself wishing for a work environment that provides us with these human elements. We are animals that are designed to move! Walking meetings, some type of AR technology so we can perform email responses/research while moving, and physical interaction with digital systems is the future I want.
- rogerkirkness 4y ago
  Check out this post that Stephen Wolfram did re: walking meetings and working. https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

magpi3 4y ago

I think what the person is asking for specifically is some kind of responsibility to an external force that will force them to keep a schedule. The thing in my life that most rigidly enforces a schedule on me is definitely not my job. It's my dog. No weekends off there, and I haven't slept past 6:30am in years.