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I'm not sure how the anti-trust / anti-monopoly laws work, but isn't it conflict of interest, if you limit others in how they can use your platform, but allow y

by bndr 4y ago

I'm not sure how the anti-trust / anti-monopoly laws work, but isn't it conflict of interest, if you limit others in how they can use your platform, but allow yourself to do the same things you're limiting others in? Or am I wrong?

imwillofficial 4y ago
I don’t deliver Apple is offering anything different that third parties can’t see. Anyone confirm or deny?
- loeg 4y ago
  My hearsay impression is that Apple can and do track in ways they prevent 3rd parties from doing on their platform.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    They ABSOLUTELY do. They track everything about the device - and the user has almost no control over it. Sure, they aren't tracking what you're doing INSIDE the FB app. But they track every time you use it, where you use it, the context that led to that usage, etc.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      > Sure, they aren't tracking what you're doing INSIDE the FB app. But they track every time you use it, where you use it, the context that led to that usage, etc. So does Facebook (as much as they're able and allowed to), being fair.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
        FB can't track every time you open Pinterest on an iPhone. Apple can and does.
        falcolas 4y ago
        To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying that individual applications can track those metrics for their own properties. And, to be fair, while I don't want Apple tracking that data (however useful/useless it may be), I wouldn't want Facebook tracking it either.
        Nextgrid 4y ago
        FB absolutely can and does correlate events and various metadata sent by the "Facebook SDK" spyware which litters most mainstream apps. ATT does not prevent that because the fingerprint it collects, combined with your IP address is sufficient to link all the separate instances of the SDK by correlating enough events.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Every (smart) merchant uses information from its interaction with its customers to target better. What overall law do you want the government to pass?
NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
You seem to be suggesting there isn't a level playing field: can you explain why? Apple doesn't limit anyone from advertising; they just limit third-party tracking, no?
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Rules for thee not for me (Apple Advertising).
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    You can enable and disable personalized adverts from Apple in the settings
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      But they're not set to disabled by default like 3rd party tracking is. Gee, I wonder why...
      - JimDabell 4y ago
        If I use an Apple device then I am clearly using an Apple product and I have a relationship with Apple. If I use an application then I am clearly using their product and I have a relationship with the application developers. If that application embeds third-party tracking, I am not clearly doing anything with the third party and I don’t have a relationship with that third party. Therefore Apple requires that the application developers ask for my consent first. Only one of these needs the user’s consent, and it’s clear why. Apple can act fairly and still hold third-party tracking to a different standard.
        lovecg 4y ago
        But that argument is not limited to tracking, isn't it. For example if I use an application that integrates with Shopify or Stripe, by that logic Apple would also be in the right to ask for consent (while the integration with Apple Pay would be pop-up free). In fact I don't see any reason why Apple shouldn't go after those businesses next - there's a clear privacy angle they can play here too. As much as I like Apple Pay as a consumer, I don't think Apple should get a blanket pass on favoring its own infrastructure over any third-party integrations just because the user is less confused about their relationship with Apple.
pier25 4y ago
You mean like Apple not allowing third party browser engines?
perryizgr8 4y ago
They've been doing it for years now with Apple music, and other stuff. Why do you think they will be stopped now?
scarface74 4y ago
Yes, just like Facebook can’t limit others from scheduling ads and Google can’t limit other search engines from just being plugs in. Also cable companies can’t limit others from carrying channels. Do you think advertisers on Facebook, Google or Amazon get access to all of the data that the platform vendor has? Do you also want everyone to get access to Google’s search algorithm? If I had a dollar every time someone on HN yelled “anti trust” about anything no matter how little legal sense it made, I could be my own VC.
jannes 4y ago
Par for the course in big tech. They love walled gardens.
SoftTalker 4y ago
Apple isn't the only online advertising platform, and they don't have anything close to a monopoly there. They are free to build their own ad tech and keep it to themselves, or give themselves preferential access.
- shrewduser 4y ago
  That's missing the point, Apple owns the platform and are using that dominance to push people out while pushing themselves in. Using your dominance in one industry like that could fall afoul of anti monopoly laws.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    > That's missing the point, Apple owns the platform People make a lot of to-do about it, but, that's not really an unusual thing in the market anymore. Sony has exclusive control of their store, does not permit sideloading, and no, the hardware isn't subsidized. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/325504-sony-finally-turns-a-profit-on-499-ps5 https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/325504-sony-finally-turns... Regardless of whether you feel that's also bad, it goes to establish that this is not unusual or particularly noteworthy behavior.
pwinnski 4y ago
Is there any evidence anywhere that Apple is doing, or is intending to do, the same things they've blocked others from doing? Apple hasn't stopped anybody from advertising, they've only stopped them from doing overly-intrusive cross-app personal tracking. They don't seem to intend to do over-intrusive cross-app personal tracking themselves, so it seems to be a level playing field. So far, at least.
- badwolf 4y ago
  >they've only stopped them from doing overly-intrusive cross-app personal tracking. It's important to remember, they aren't stopping them from doing the overly-intrusive cross-app tracking, they just make you actively consent to an app allowing that tracking.
  - hn92726819 4y ago
    I'm not familiar -- do you have to actively consent to Apple's tracking too? As in, do they give themselves some advantage over other ad platforms?
    - novok 4y ago
      You do have to consent, but there are many parts where they don't let you say no and continue using, while all third parties are forced to make you say no and to continue using. Apple is doing the classic "we don't share with third parties, we just collect a shit ton of data from everywhere and then make people buy our data indirectly via our ad sale services" like google and facebook do today. So it's not shared with third parties, but because of their scale it might as well be in effect size .
    - pkaler 4y ago
      > I'm not familiar -- do you have to actively consent to Apple's tracking too? It's called App Tracking Transparency and there is a scary prompt when Facebook/others do it. It's called Personalization and a friendly prompt when Apple does it.
gamblor956 4y ago
No, you're not wrong. If Apple follows through with this it's pretty much the textbook definition of an antitrust violation: leveraging their market power in one market to circumvent competition in the target market.
- scarface74 4y ago
  When I watch Netflix, I have no reason to be surprised or shocked that Netflix is using that information to target movies I want to watch. It’s the same with Amazon and Facebook. What I don’t expect is that when I shop on Amazon I get ads showing me what I searched for and bought on Amazon to show up on Facebook (which of course does happen). What would be the consumer friendly thing for the government to do? Allow more cross app data sharing? Refuse to let any company use the history of what a consumer does at that company for targeting?
  - aierou 4y ago
    Regulators could kill several birds with one stone and allow alternative app markets on iOS devices.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      I can see the marketing aspect now “if you install this third party App Store, the apps you can install can ignore the privacy guards and advertise and track you better!” Or a company like Facebook can once again encourage users to install a VPN that allows them to track all of the traffic to and from your phone. https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to-watch-snapchat-and-whatsapp https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to...
      - gamblor956 4y ago
        This has been possible for many years now on Android and that has yet to been an issue, even though it's been brought up for years as a potential concern. It turns out that people (or at least Android users) aren't as dumb as Apple users think they are. (Or maybe it says something about Apple users that Apple and other Apple users think that Apple users are too dumb to be able to make this decision for themselves?)
bolt7469 4y ago
My understanding of a "conflict of interest" is that they happen when a personal interest interferes with a duty. Ex: a company executive receiving a gift from a potential supplier. This situation would not be a conflict of interest because Apple has no duty to third party advertisers
amelius 4y ago
If you really wanted to rule out conflicts of interest, you would have to break up the company in several hardware and several software companies.

by bndr 4y ago

imwillofficial 4y ago

I don’t deliver Apple is offering anything different that third parties can’t see. Anyone confirm or deny?

loeg 4y ago
My hearsay impression is that Apple can and do track in ways they prevent 3rd parties from doing on their platform.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  They ABSOLUTELY do. They track everything about the device - and the user has almost no control over it. Sure, they aren't tracking what you're doing INSIDE the FB app. But they track every time you use it, where you use it, the context that led to that usage, etc.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    > Sure, they aren't tracking what you're doing INSIDE the FB app. But they track every time you use it, where you use it, the context that led to that usage, etc. So does Facebook (as much as they're able and allowed to), being fair.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      FB can't track every time you open Pinterest on an iPhone. Apple can and does.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying that individual applications can track those metrics for their own properties. And, to be fair, while I don't want Apple tracking that data (however useful/useless it may be), I wouldn't want Facebook tracking it either.
      - Nextgrid 4y ago
        FB absolutely can and does correlate events and various metadata sent by the "Facebook SDK" spyware which litters most mainstream apps. ATT does not prevent that because the fingerprint it collects, combined with your IP address is sufficient to link all the separate instances of the SDK by correlating enough events.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Every (smart) merchant uses information from its interaction with its customers to target better. What overall law do you want the government to pass?

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago

You seem to be suggesting there isn't a level playing field: can you explain why? Apple doesn't limit anyone from advertising; they just limit third-party tracking, no?

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Rules for thee not for me (Apple Advertising).
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  You can enable and disable personalized adverts from Apple in the settings
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    But they're not set to disabled by default like 3rd party tracking is. Gee, I wonder why...
    - JimDabell 4y ago
      If I use an Apple device then I am clearly using an Apple product and I have a relationship with Apple. If I use an application then I am clearly using their product and I have a relationship with the application developers. If that application embeds third-party tracking, I am not clearly doing anything with the third party and I don’t have a relationship with that third party. Therefore Apple requires that the application developers ask for my consent first. Only one of these needs the user’s consent, and it’s clear why. Apple can act fairly and still hold third-party tracking to a different standard.
      - lovecg 4y ago
        But that argument is not limited to tracking, isn't it. For example if I use an application that integrates with Shopify or Stripe, by that logic Apple would also be in the right to ask for consent (while the integration with Apple Pay would be pop-up free). In fact I don't see any reason why Apple shouldn't go after those businesses next - there's a clear privacy angle they can play here too. As much as I like Apple Pay as a consumer, I don't think Apple should get a blanket pass on favoring its own infrastructure over any third-party integrations just because the user is less confused about their relationship with Apple.

pier25 4y ago

You mean like Apple not allowing third party browser engines?

perryizgr8 4y ago

They've been doing it for years now with Apple music, and other stuff. Why do you think they will be stopped now?

scarface74 4y ago

Yes, just like Facebook can’t limit others from scheduling ads and Google can’t limit other search engines from just being plugs in. Also cable companies can’t limit others from carrying channels. Do you think advertisers on Facebook, Google or Amazon get access to all of the data that the platform vendor has? Do you also want everyone to get access to Google’s search algorithm? If I had a dollar every time someone on HN yelled “anti trust” about anything no matter how little legal sense it made, I could be my own VC.

jannes 4y ago

Par for the course in big tech. They love walled gardens.

SoftTalker 4y ago

Apple isn't the only online advertising platform, and they don't have anything close to a monopoly there. They are free to build their own ad tech and keep it to themselves, or give themselves preferential access.

shrewduser 4y ago
That's missing the point, Apple owns the platform and are using that dominance to push people out while pushing themselves in. Using your dominance in one industry like that could fall afoul of anti monopoly laws.
- paulmd 4y ago
  > That's missing the point, Apple owns the platform People make a lot of to-do about it, but, that's not really an unusual thing in the market anymore. Sony has exclusive control of their store, does not permit sideloading, and no, the hardware isn't subsidized. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/325504-sony-finally-turns-a-profit-on-499-ps5 https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/325504-sony-finally-turns... Regardless of whether you feel that's also bad, it goes to establish that this is not unusual or particularly noteworthy behavior.

pwinnski 4y ago

Is there any evidence anywhere that Apple is doing, or is intending to do, the same things they've blocked others from doing? Apple hasn't stopped anybody from advertising, they've only stopped them from doing overly-intrusive cross-app personal tracking. They don't seem to intend to do over-intrusive cross-app personal tracking themselves, so it seems to be a level playing field. So far, at least.

badwolf 4y ago
>they've only stopped them from doing overly-intrusive cross-app personal tracking. It's important to remember, they aren't stopping them from doing the overly-intrusive cross-app tracking, they just make you actively consent to an app allowing that tracking.
- hn92726819 4y ago
  I'm not familiar -- do you have to actively consent to Apple's tracking too? As in, do they give themselves some advantage over other ad platforms?
  - novok 4y ago
    You do have to consent, but there are many parts where they don't let you say no and continue using, while all third parties are forced to make you say no and to continue using. Apple is doing the classic "we don't share with third parties, we just collect a shit ton of data from everywhere and then make people buy our data indirectly via our ad sale services" like google and facebook do today. So it's not shared with third parties, but because of their scale it might as well be in effect size .
  - pkaler 4y ago
    > I'm not familiar -- do you have to actively consent to Apple's tracking too? It's called App Tracking Transparency and there is a scary prompt when Facebook/others do it. It's called Personalization and a friendly prompt when Apple does it.

gamblor956 4y ago

No, you're not wrong. If Apple follows through with this it's pretty much the textbook definition of an antitrust violation: leveraging their market power in one market to circumvent competition in the target market.

scarface74 4y ago
When I watch Netflix, I have no reason to be surprised or shocked that Netflix is using that information to target movies I want to watch. It’s the same with Amazon and Facebook. What I don’t expect is that when I shop on Amazon I get ads showing me what I searched for and bought on Amazon to show up on Facebook (which of course does happen). What would be the consumer friendly thing for the government to do? Allow more cross app data sharing? Refuse to let any company use the history of what a consumer does at that company for targeting?
- aierou 4y ago
  Regulators could kill several birds with one stone and allow alternative app markets on iOS devices.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I can see the marketing aspect now “if you install this third party App Store, the apps you can install can ignore the privacy guards and advertise and track you better!” Or a company like Facebook can once again encourage users to install a VPN that allows them to track all of the traffic to and from your phone. https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to-watch-snapchat-and-whatsapp https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn-data-to...
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      This has been possible for many years now on Android and that has yet to been an issue, even though it's been brought up for years as a potential concern. It turns out that people (or at least Android users) aren't as dumb as Apple users think they are. (Or maybe it says something about Apple users that Apple and other Apple users think that Apple users are too dumb to be able to make this decision for themselves?)

bolt7469 4y ago

My understanding of a "conflict of interest" is that they happen when a personal interest interferes with a duty. Ex: a company executive receiving a gift from a potential supplier. This situation would not be a conflict of interest because Apple has no duty to third party advertisers

amelius 4y ago

If you really wanted to rule out conflicts of interest, you would have to break up the company in several hardware and several software companies.