5 ms·

Impressive numbers. The main problem for me is that the Supercharger network is not scaling at the same rate.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
api 4y ago
A major advancement for EV adoption would be mandatory standardization of CCS and mandatory conversion assistance or adapters for cars with other standards. There are not three different AC plug standards.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  mandatory standardization can kill innovation. what a hell it would be if Chademo had been the mandatory standard.
  - TotempaaltJ 4y ago
    We've had the period of standards competition and CCS has won. Now is exactly the right time to standardize.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      CCS won in Europe because the EU mandated it. Tesla won in the US because they have majority of marketshare and built out a nationwide fast DC charging network on their own [1]. If they get federal funds to enable CCS, fine, otherwise keep the advantage to drive sales and let legacy automakers flail in the wind. There is no political appetite to mandate CCS in the US. That’s the cost of hesitating and a half assed approach to an EV go to market strategy (Tesla has sunk almost $1B into its global fast DC charging network, VW only did through Electrify America because it was a Diselgate settlement requirement). [1] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
      - jeffbee 4y ago
        Is this even true? Cumulative sales of plug-in cars in the U.S.A. looks to me like it still favors the SAE charger connector.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        https://electrek.co/2022/08/15/tesla-tsla-dominates-us-electric-car-market-share/ https://electrek.co/2022/08/15/tesla-tsla-dominates-us-elect... Edit: https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/state-ev-registration-data/ https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/state-ev-registration-d... https://twitter.com/icannot_enough/status/1576605589605863430 https://twitter.com/icannot_enough/status/157660558960586343... PHEVs don’t count for these purposes imho, fast DC charging is wasted on their charge curve. They can make due at legacy J1772 connectors.
        jeffbee 4y ago
        Market share and cumulative fleet size are two completely different things.
        labcomputer 4y ago
        I’m curious how you come to that conclusion without some serious cherry-picking. It is a mistake confuse number of available models with units sold. The Nissan Leaf had by far the greatest market share among non-Teslas in North America prior to the Model 3 launch. Moreover, most of the Leaf’s competition, either “compliance” EVs or PHEVs, were sold without any DCFC connector. After the Model 3 launch, Tesla has dominated market share in the US.
      - matthewdgreen 4y ago
        >CCS won in Europe because the EU mandated it. Tesla won in the US because they have majority of marketshare and built out a nationwide fast DC charging network on their own [1]. Does it really matter? Tesla offers both standards on their superchargers in Europe, and I'm sure (in their newer car designs) the digital and electronic components are ready to support both standards. I agree it's annoying to have two different plugs, but at this point isn't it basically a cheap retrofit? (At least for new-model Teslas and superchargers... I do worry that older Teslas might get left behind.)
  - kevingadd 4y ago
    How long do we need for The Market to automatically converge on a single plug? By my read they've had over 12 years to do it and Tesla still has a custom connector. Are they offering their superior connector to other manufacturers and they're not buying? Are there extreme patent fees on the predominant connectors? Why do you think standardization would be bad here, specifically, right now?
  - cronix 4y ago
    Yeah it would have been great if car companies each had their own proprietary version of the gas nozzle and their own gas stations that would only work for their own brand cars.
    - jjtheblunt 4y ago
      you're talking about mandatory differentiation per vendor? that would suck. that contrasts with vendors free to settle on what works for them all, perhaps innovating along the way, rather than being told what works for them uniformly.
      - cronix 4y ago
        No, I'm talking about what would have happened if we didn't standardize things like the gas nozzle/pump early on with ICE cars, which made them more universal. There is no need for multiple styles of charging plug design (the physical interface). The innovation would be in the internals that negotiated the rate of charge, like USB devices do with fast/regular charging. I can still charge my 10+ year old devices with modern chargers that are capable of outputting 2-3x more current than my old device can handle, because it automatically negotiates a lower rate, using the same type of plug.
- dlgeek 4y ago
  >There are not three different AC plug standards. There actually are a lot more, esp in the 240v world in the US: https://www.bsaelectronics.com/pages/nema-plug-and-outlet-chart https://www.bsaelectronics.com/pages/nema-plug-and-outlet-ch...
- mkhpalm 4y ago
  The most major advancement to EV adoption would be not just standardizing chargers but standardizing battery modules and allowing third party diagnostics and repair.
- ben_w 4y ago
  I’m a fan of standardisation, but: > There are not three different AC plug standards. There were four different AC sockets just in my childhood home — BS 1363, BS 4573, and two different sizes of BS 546. Now I live in Berlin, I don’t use a single one of these.
wlesieutre 4y ago
https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter
panick21_ 4y ago
Well but the reality is the Supercharger network is doing a much better chance at growing along with Tesla numbers then other chargers do with the rest of the industry. There is gone be an absolutely huge overflow of vehicles compared to charging infrastructure. Companies like Electrify America can already not handle the maintenance and upkeep of their stations and the ratio of vehicles to charges is about to increase massively as their initial deployed machines fail at ever increasing rates.
- 11thEarlOfMar 4y ago
  This is going to be a problem for a while. They can do their best to optimize the locations and stalls as they build out, but you'll be seeing photos of long lines of EVs waiting to charge for many years to come. If for no other reason that there will be very spikey demand in many locations. I expect that many drivers will learn to simply avoid charging on certain days and places and stay close to home.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

api 4y ago

A major advancement for EV adoption would be mandatory standardization of CCS and mandatory conversion assistance or adapters for cars with other standards. There are not three different AC plug standards.

jjtheblunt 4y ago
mandatory standardization can kill innovation. what a hell it would be if Chademo had been the mandatory standard.
- TotempaaltJ 4y ago
  We've had the period of standards competition and CCS has won. Now is exactly the right time to standardize.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    CCS won in Europe because the EU mandated it. Tesla won in the US because they have majority of marketshare and built out a nationwide fast DC charging network on their own [1]. If they get federal funds to enable CCS, fine, otherwise keep the advantage to drive sales and let legacy automakers flail in the wind. There is no political appetite to mandate CCS in the US. That’s the cost of hesitating and a half assed approach to an EV go to market strategy (Tesla has sunk almost $1B into its global fast DC charging network, VW only did through Electrify America because it was a Diselgate settlement requirement). [1] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      Is this even true? Cumulative sales of plug-in cars in the U.S.A. looks to me like it still favors the SAE charger connector.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        https://electrek.co/2022/08/15/tesla-tsla-dominates-us-electric-car-market-share/ https://electrek.co/2022/08/15/tesla-tsla-dominates-us-elect... Edit: https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/state-ev-registration-data/ https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/state-ev-registration-d... https://twitter.com/icannot_enough/status/1576605589605863430 https://twitter.com/icannot_enough/status/157660558960586343... PHEVs don’t count for these purposes imho, fast DC charging is wasted on their charge curve. They can make due at legacy J1772 connectors.
        jeffbee 4y ago
        Market share and cumulative fleet size are two completely different things.
      - labcomputer 4y ago
        I’m curious how you come to that conclusion without some serious cherry-picking. It is a mistake confuse number of available models with units sold. The Nissan Leaf had by far the greatest market share among non-Teslas in North America prior to the Model 3 launch. Moreover, most of the Leaf’s competition, either “compliance” EVs or PHEVs, were sold without any DCFC connector. After the Model 3 launch, Tesla has dominated market share in the US.
    - matthewdgreen 4y ago
      >CCS won in Europe because the EU mandated it. Tesla won in the US because they have majority of marketshare and built out a nationwide fast DC charging network on their own [1]. Does it really matter? Tesla offers both standards on their superchargers in Europe, and I'm sure (in their newer car designs) the digital and electronic components are ready to support both standards. I agree it's annoying to have two different plugs, but at this point isn't it basically a cheap retrofit? (At least for new-model Teslas and superchargers... I do worry that older Teslas might get left behind.)
- kevingadd 4y ago
  How long do we need for The Market to automatically converge on a single plug? By my read they've had over 12 years to do it and Tesla still has a custom connector. Are they offering their superior connector to other manufacturers and they're not buying? Are there extreme patent fees on the predominant connectors? Why do you think standardization would be bad here, specifically, right now?
- cronix 4y ago
  Yeah it would have been great if car companies each had their own proprietary version of the gas nozzle and their own gas stations that would only work for their own brand cars.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    you're talking about mandatory differentiation per vendor? that would suck. that contrasts with vendors free to settle on what works for them all, perhaps innovating along the way, rather than being told what works for them uniformly.
    - cronix 4y ago
      No, I'm talking about what would have happened if we didn't standardize things like the gas nozzle/pump early on with ICE cars, which made them more universal. There is no need for multiple styles of charging plug design (the physical interface). The innovation would be in the internals that negotiated the rate of charge, like USB devices do with fast/regular charging. I can still charge my 10+ year old devices with modern chargers that are capable of outputting 2-3x more current than my old device can handle, because it automatically negotiates a lower rate, using the same type of plug.
dlgeek 4y ago
>There are not three different AC plug standards. There actually are a lot more, esp in the 240v world in the US: https://www.bsaelectronics.com/pages/nema-plug-and-outlet-chart https://www.bsaelectronics.com/pages/nema-plug-and-outlet-ch...
mkhpalm 4y ago
The most major advancement to EV adoption would be not just standardizing chargers but standardizing battery modules and allowing third party diagnostics and repair.
ben_w 4y ago
I’m a fan of standardisation, but: > There are not three different AC plug standards. There were four different AC sockets just in my childhood home — BS 1363, BS 4573, and two different sizes of BS 546. Now I live in Berlin, I don’t use a single one of these.

wlesieutre 4y ago

https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter

panick21_ 4y ago

Well but the reality is the Supercharger network is doing a much better chance at growing along with Tesla numbers then other chargers do with the rest of the industry. There is gone be an absolutely huge overflow of vehicles compared to charging infrastructure. Companies like Electrify America can already not handle the maintenance and upkeep of their stations and the ratio of vehicles to charges is about to increase massively as their initial deployed machines fail at ever increasing rates.

11thEarlOfMar 4y ago
This is going to be a problem for a while. They can do their best to optimize the locations and stalls as they build out, but you'll be seeing photos of long lines of EVs waiting to charge for many years to come. If for no other reason that there will be very spikey demand in many locations. I expect that many drivers will learn to simply avoid charging on certain days and places and stay close to home.