12 ms·
USB kills off SuperSpeed branding
- devonallie 4y agoI’m going back to firewire.
- aappleby 4y agoHey, the new branding looks exactly like what I suggested in a similar HN comment a few months ago. Good job (finally) USB people.
- aappleby 4y agoOld comment thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32682264#32683540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32682264#32683540
- zuminator 4y agoThey still have the problem of "Hi-Speed" being the slowest speed. They should've killed that name off too and required that manufacturers use the designation ½Gbps to be in line with the other speeds.
- auxym 4y agoActually "full speed" (USB 1.1, 12 Mbps) is the slowest speed that still somewhat common (in keyboards, etc). High speed (USB 2.0) is 480 Mbps. I do agree though, as you and many other people have in the comments, just getting a numeric Mbps rating would be way better than the 3.1 x2 gen 4 nonsense.
- userbinator 4y agoI believe most keyboards and mouses use "low speed" (1.5Mbps).
- Etheryte 4y agoSince "Hi-Speed" does not actually offer high speed, I suggest we rename it to just "Speed".
- skocznymroczny 4y agoHow about Ludicrous Speed?
- TazeTSchnitzel 4y agoHow does this handle 2x1 vs 1x2 vs 2x2?
- 0x457 4y agoThose are irrelevant? Consumers only care about: speed and wattage. You're technically never supposed to care or even know about which USB standard it is, all of those Gen 3.2 2x2 aren't supposed to be consumer facing. USB 3.2 Gen 2×2 “consumer” name is^W was "SuperSpeed USB 20 Gbps" that is what USB-IF been suggesting since the beginning. However, to use that name, they have to submit to testing and compliance. Otherwise, they can use whatever name they want. As long as there are no two different standards that are capable of the same wattage and speed—everything is good.
- userbinator 4y agoAs long as there are no two different standards that are capable of the same wattage and speed There are. USB 3.2 Gen 1x2 and 3.2 Gen 2 are both nominally 10Gbps but use different signaling.
- wereHamster 4y agoDoes that affect device function?
- crote 4y agoIn theory, yes. Gen 2x1 uses a slightly more efficient error correction method than 1x2, so even though the number of bits going over the line is the same, the effective data transfer rate is higher. Meanwhile, Gen 1x2 uses half the bandwidth that 2x1 requires, which makes the design of the chips, PCBs, and cables a lot easier. If a Gen 2x1 link fails to operate reliably, it will actually downgrade to 1x2 if possible.
- crote 4y agoI am still not convinced that Gen 1x2 actually exists. Sure, it's in the specs, but can you actually buy chips which support 1x2 but not 2x1? Sure, in theory it is easier to design because you are dealing with two 5Gbps signals instead of one 10Gbps signal so you have a bigger error margin, but 2x1 was introduced in 2013 whereas 1x2 came along in 2017, had a worse real-world data transfer rate, and required way more complicated chips due to the mandatory USB-C handling. Did anyone bother to build chips for it?
- schmichael 4y agoAt this point USB might as well auction their branding rights like sports stadiums: - USB Coke Zero - USB House of Dragon streaming exclusively on HBO - USB Crypto.com Consumers, Devices, and cables could continue ignoring it all but at least the consortium could have a new revenue stream.
- Waterluvian 4y agoPepsi Presents: HDMI 3.0. With the most refreshing refresh rate ever.
- altairprime 4y agoIf it doesn’t have any optional features, I’d take that in a heartbeat. HDMI Pepsi: Same great taste, no matter where you are.
- throwaway932489 4y agoGoogle did it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_KitKat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_KitKat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Oreo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Oreo
- sixothree 4y agoThat was a fairly repulsive move on Google's part. I still don't understand why they did that.
- solarkraft 4y agoIt just hit me that (of course) this was coordinated. I'm against many forms of advertising, but somehow I don't mind this. They needed a name for the letter and looked around. I can't imagine the brands having paid all that much to be the name of an Android version.
- sangnoir 4y ago
- TacticalCoder 4y agoSo if I've got two computers, each with a port labelled 40 Gbps and a USB cable labelled 40 Gbps, what's the protocol I can use to copy files at close to that? FWIW I used to run PLIP back in the nineties (IP over parallel port) to share my dialup Internet connection between my desktop and "laptop", so I'm not afraid of anything.
- chx 4y agohttps://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/component-guidelines/usb4-interdomain-connections https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/co... > the Ethernet over USB4 interdomain protocol, also known as USB4NET enables two USB4 PCs to establish a network connection between each other when connected using a USB4 cable, akin to connecting an ethernet cable between network cards on two PCs. I wrote about this a month ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32714807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32714807 it gets confusing because the USB4 protocol uses the word "routers" for hosts, devices, hubs which of course is used by Ethernet for something totally else.
- TacticalCoder 4y agoAh I missed it, TYVM! It's great to see that such a feature made it into USB4 now that it's going to reach these speeds. > I do not quite know what happens if you were to plug three hosts together via a USB4 hub. As my post above details, USB4NET properly travels over the hub but which hosts pair, I can't even guess. Can't wait to see people trying this and reporting!
- int_19h 4y agoIt's rather unfortunate that you still have dig so deep to look up the auto-assigned IPs and then manually type them in Explorer. It really ought to be as simple as file transfers from a PC to a phone - plug the cable, each side gets a prompt on whether it wants to provide access, and once you confirm, the other end shows it in the drive/device tree in Explorer.
- deleted 4y ago
- userbinator 4y agoI think the IEEE got it right with their Ethernet standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_physical_layer#Naming_conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_physical_layer#Naming... The newer USB transfer speeds are basically using the same sort of line code as the Ethernet standards anyway. So doing something similar with USB would result in... 1.5BASE-UT (USB 1.1) 12BASE-UT (USB 2.0 FS) 480BASE-UT (USB 2.0 HS) 5000BASE-UT (USB 3.0 / 3.1 Gen 1 / 3.2 Gen 1) 10GBASE-UT (USB 3.1 Gen 2 / 3.2 Gen 2) 10GBASE-UT2 (USB 3.2 Gen 1 x2) 20GBASE-UT2 (USB 3.2 Gen 2 x2) Better? Worse?
- deadbunny 4y agoYes 100%. I'd add something about wattage as well given it ubiquity in charging these days like: 20GBASE-100W-UT2
- numpad0 4y agoThat reads like .ıllı.ıllı. product
- 0x457 4y agoThat only solves half of the issues. What about cables? What does UT stand for?
- kaszanka 4y ago"UnTwisted", I suppose
- userbinator 4y agoUSB twisted-pair.
- monocasa 4y agoIf it's following Ethernet, Unshielded Twisted-pair.
- sixothree 4y agoIt's lacking that special obfuscation and deception IF seems to be famous for. Other than that it seems great.
- cududa 4y agoThis is still ridiculous. The USB certified logo should be one image, then a similar sized wattage and Gbps number displayed next to it. The pertinent information is still too tiny. The cables themselves are still way too easy to mix up. Connector's inner plastic should have different colors
- Bellend 4y agoNo in my view. USB should be USB. That rectangle thing you poke into a port somewhere. Not just on chargers, motherboards or literally aircraft and cars. If it's not that. Call it something else. LEET, PHAT, BIGPORT. I really don't understand. Universal Serial Bus... in 10 different formats make's it no longer universal.
- layer8 4y agoUSB should be retronymed to Unpredictable Serial Bus.
- cududa 4y agoHonestly I'd prefer that! Have fried two devices using the wrong damn cable/ charger. Sure the device should have had better power IC's etc to prevent anything from happening when I plugged in the wrong one, but still, they all look the damn same!
- currenciessfe 4y agoWhy do they have to put that TM on the logo, but Apple for example doesn't?
- Nition 4y agoThe funny thing about ™ is it usually means you have not registered your trade mark. Registered trade marks get an ®.
- gumby 4y agoThis part is so exciting: > it’ll now also have to list a charging speed like 60W or 240W. Ah, no more trying to do determine what dielectric the cable is using: they’ll label the cable with how fast the charge can propagate through the cable. A significant blow for consumer choice!
- KennyBlanken 4y agoIt's even worse. A 20W USB-PD charger might indeed put out 20W, but not at the voltage your device needs. It might put out 20W at one voltage, but only 10W at another. The whole thing is a goddamn mess, and it's a mess because the alliance is a cartel, not an actually useful technical standards group. They're a bunch of fat swine contributing little to nothing but extorting licensing fees from everyone.
- bjoli 4y agoOh, but USB-PD 3.0 with PPS got rid of fixed profiles. Not the charger and chargee negotiate a voltage between 3.3 and 20V. I wonder how they'll screw up that branding...
- gumby 4y agoFrom the article they just label the maximum power, which the author called “speed”.
- gumby 4y agoI only remember a couple of gross violations, both in the early days: apple macbook charger and the Nintendo switch. I think things have quieted down since. Of course that is due to the limited choice in chipsets (cartel? Or just bc nobody wants to design a complex, low margin part?). But nowadays dodgy mfrs can compete on who can electrocute or set alight the customer to save a couple of pennies, but the protocol conformance will be outsourced.
- sixothree 4y agoFor the last 5 or 10 years, USB has seemed like a standard designed to make you purchase more than what you need. Whether it's the capability of the cable or the number of cables (through trying to rectify disappointing purchases). I'm sick of everything they are.
- acchow 4y agoSuperlatives have no place in technology because they become obsolete quite quickly.
- esskay 4y agoI'd love for someone involved in the USB naming standard to come here and explain why being on coke when deciding on names is a good thing.
- lovich 4y agoDo they need to explain why all of marketing operates the same way or just why they follow regular marketing standards /s
- bringbackrs232 4y agoThey're doing a contest with the people behind .NET version numbers and names. (Java guys in the corner: "Why can't they just increment an integer like we do?")
- bringbackrs232 4y agoThe world was confusing when we had distinct ports that looked kind of the same but were not the same: serial ports, parallel ports and PS/2 connectors. So they invented a universal serial bus. And now we've got 218312893 variants of it with different connectors, speeds, etc.
- chemmail 4y agoYet, no one will use these and no one ever knows how fast its gonna take to transfer a file.
- theandrewbailey 4y agoThis wouldn't be necessary if Big USB had better versioning numbers to begin with. They're right that customers shouldn't see "USB4 Gen whatever x LOL", but it shouldn't be a name underneath, either.
- tinus_hn 4y agoNames are fine, the problem is if you call something superspeed what are you going to call next years speed? Hyper speed? Ultraspeed? Turbospeed? You rather quickly run out, and that’s if it doesn’t start sounding ridiculously hyperbolic before that. And of course superspeed is super slow by todays standards. So you have to either use marketing names that don’t mean anything by themselves, or numbers that naturally increase.
- WorldMaker 4y agoThat's the mistake that USB 2.0 made calling 480 Mbps "High Speed". Now it seems incredibly slow by today's standards.
- Tijdreiziger 4y agoSee also: high definition TV
- alias_neo 4y agoAm I right in thinking that 4K and 8K are UHD 4K and UHD 8K? I guess this debacle goes even further back with VHF and UHF. Why do we insist on using such words when they don't clearly have an order? Is "very" larger than "ultra" and where would "super" fit in there?
- anikom15 4y agoUsable frequency is just on one axis, and is bound by the physical properties of the atmosphere, so there is at least a limit.
- AdamJacobMuller 4y ago> “As we started to update our branding we did a lot of focus group studies with many different types of consumers,” he tells The Verge, “and none of those people understood the messaging and the branding, and they don’t understand revision control or spec names.” You didn't need a focus group to tell you this (though I'm glad they did one). Just look at every single comment thread on HN about USB branding, at this point it's a meme.
- WorldMaker 4y agoUSB-IF is a forum of so many different companies the focus group probably was needed for CYA finger pointing if no other reason. If this branding doesn't work out they can blame a bad focus group and convene a new one rather than war among themselves.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- notatoad 4y agoif you're making design decisions based on HN comment threads instead of proper focus groups, you're going to end up with a very weird product.
- laundermaf 4y agoGiven the terrible product naming[1] most hardware companies[2] have, at this point I’ve just come to the conclusion that most people in command don’t have any idea of how other people behave and reason. [1]: Sony WF-1000XM3 are AirPods competitors, but you’d never tell your friends about your Sony WF-1000XM3 [2]: Except Apple and a handful others
- Macha 4y agoSometimes I wonder if that's intentional. You won't suggest the WF-1000XM3, so you recommend "the Sony ones", and your friend goes to their preferred store where the XM3 is unavailable/out of stock and just orders some lower quality/older generation Sony ones rather than a competitor
- wnissen 4y agoThe whole concept of "SuperSpeed" made it more difficult to understand what was going on, so I'm very glad to see it go. A rare hiccup in the USB consortium's otherwise unbroken streak of making each generation more difficult to understand. The all-time prize has to go to the German wine producers, though, who regard a wine named "2001 Selbach-Oster Wehlener Sonnenheur Riesling Spaetlese Feinherb" as very precise and helpful.
- DocTomoe 4y ago> 2001 Selbach-Oster Wehlener Sonnenheur Riesling Spaetlese Feinherb It is a dry (feinherb) white (Riesling is a white wine berry variety) wine that has been harvested late in the season (Spätlese), making it have a higher alcohol level. Wehlener Sonnenheur is a geographical vineyard location (should probably read Wehlener Sonnenuhr, which is semi-famous and located at the Mosel, near Bernkastel), Selbach-Oster is the name of the winemaker, and 2001 is the year of production. I fail to see what is complicated about that. But then I am German.
- loufe 4y agoI suppose the OP wasn't being sarcastic, despite (I agree) it reading as such.
- vitus 4y agoMost of those characteristics actually seem par for the course even in the US. For instance, Trader Joe's sells an in-house "Trader Joe's Reserve Merlot Sonoma Valley 2020" [0]. At a bare minimum, you'll get vintage (year), winemaker, and grape varietal, possibly with some additional qualifiers, e.g. Reserve as above, or late-harvest. Riesling in particular is such a widely used grape that can be either dry or sweet, so breaking out "dry Riesling" is not atypical. [0] https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/reserve-merlot-sonoma-valley-2020-074058 https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/reserve-merlot-...
- wnissen 4y agoOops, thanks for the correction. I let my poor French bleed into my poor German. I have even stayed in Wehlen at the Gasthaus Prüm so it's especially embarrassing. I think your point is relevant to USB, though! The USB folks know what all the words mean. They know what a USB 3.4 Gen 2 cable is, and what a PD cable is, and what a SuperSpeed cable is. Because they are the experts. It's not complicated to them, just as the wine description is, truly, not complicated to you. But your average person who just wants to connect their monitor to their laptop is left adrift. P.S. that wine (well, the fruchtig version, not the feinherb) is one of my very favorites.