8 ms·

There's a libertarian ethos that says anything between two consenting adults is the their business. I'm more and more skeptical not just of that principle but

There's a libertarian ethos that says anything between two consenting adults is the their business. I'm more and more skeptical not just of that principle but the self awareness of the people who purport to support it. I know that the choices I think are correct may not be - either for myself, for everyone or for any particular person. For that reason I don't think that anyone should run my life or that I should be trying to run other people's; excepting crossing the bright line of consent. I'm beginning to wonder though if there isn't some space short of stopping a person from doing something - even if just to stand up and say - "What you're doing is crazy. Why would you do that to yourself? Why would you let someone do that to you? Why would you do that to another person?" If you talk to people who would ask those questions though the issue is that anyone who's willing to say something is also unable to accept that that's all they can do. They'll push whatever isn't right for them to the other side of the bright line.

confidantlake 4y ago
I think that is friends/family/social pressure is for. We don't forbid it, but people will look at you sideways if you drink beer at 9 am on a weekday.
- slfnflctd 4y ago
  There are countless situations where that sort of pressure simply doesn't exist, and likely won't in the future. I also don't think the example you provided is a very good one. Perhaps a better example might be extreme cosmetic surgery (&/or body modification) addicts. Or maybe I should say 'enthusiasts'.
  - confidantlake 4y ago
    Yup good point, it wasn't a very good example.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  Social pressure seems sufficient to produce most if not all of the problems described in the source article. Why are chargeback rates so high? Because the customer's spouse found out about the purchase and now they have to pretend it wasn't them. Why won't VCs invest in Onlyfans? Because it would be extremely embarrassing for a partner to attend a board meeting about all the great porn the company's producing.
- slillibri 4y ago
  > but people will look at you sideways if you drink beer at 9 am on a weekday. This is interesting because it assumes everyone's day to day is exactly the same. When I worked 3rd shift, drinking beer at 9 am wasn't an issue to me because my 9 am wasn't the same as your 9 am. At that point, drinking beer at 9 pm would be odd because that was my morning. Also, my workweek was shifted so my weekend was Monday/Tuesday, so trying to fit everyone into one way of living is simply never going to work.
  - confidantlake 4y ago
    Ty for pointing that out, my example was bad. I think this is a good illustration of why being judgemental is not helpful. I completely missed why this is a perfectly normal choice for a lot of people who don't operate like I do.
rayiner 4y ago
> I'm beginning to wonder though if there isn't some space short of stopping a person from doing something That’s why moral norms exist in every human society. Most people need some sort of support from society to make good decisions for themselves and their families. It’s no different than how an exercise or diet regimen is easier to stick to if you do it along with other people to provide support and yes shaming if necessary. Intellectuals project their own capacities onto sex workers, and say that if they did sex work—which they don’t—it would be for “freedom of expression” and “economic rights.” But the fact is that sex work is like myriad other dangerous and unpleasant jobs society has seen fit to regulate or ban. Society seeks to create a floor below which people can’t sink through desperation or bad choices.
- Sakos 4y ago
  Society? You're painting an awfully broad brush. I absolutely think it should be regulated because of the reasons you name, but it's mainly particular demographics that want sex work banned, and generally these demographics don't actually care about the well-being of sex workers (re: provably negative consequences for sex workers in previous situations where such work was made illegal or otherwise deregulated and punished).
  - rayiner 4y ago
    The “particular demographics” who want to ban prostitution include “the majority of women.” https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-men-women-poll https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-me... Women oppose legalized sex work at higher rates than men, because they’d be the ones who would encounter social pressure to do sex work in tough economic circumstances if it became normalized.
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      > Women oppose legalized sex work at higher rates than men, because they’d be the ones who would encounter social pressure to do sex work in tough economic circumstances if it became normalized. I don't think that's the only reason; even a few sex providers can distort the (mostly balanced) market for sex. IOW, if men don't feel the need to date just to get sex then there's fewer men in the market. This means that women have to pay a higher price[1] for the available men, while the available men pay a lower price[2] for any specific woman. [1] Be nicer, be more willing to engage in sex, etc. [2] Be less committed, less involved, etc.
dymk 4y ago
Your first and third paragraph are what lawmakers in e.g. Texas use to ban things like anal sex. Your second paragraph contradicts first and third. I have no idea what the fourth paragraph is trying to say.
- hackeraccount 4y ago
  If I sound contradictory it's because I'm uncertain. Let's say I, like the people running Iran, think a woman should have her head covered in public. It's good for woman, men and all of us together. What are my options? I can decide that whatever the individuals want the overall badness of an uncovered female head is so great that preventing that is worth sending people to jail. Alternately I could decide that the goodness of letting people make decisions about their own lives is worth the damage that an uncovered female head will do to men, woman and society. It seems like the rule almost everyone uses is "consenting adults can do things that don't harm non-consenting adults" for everything they don't have a problem with. When they have a problem with it they just flip the script by claiming it's not really consenting. It end up being the open sesame of public policy. The other problem I have is that I don't think the view I described is right. There has to be a place we - society, the law, whatever - can sit where we can go, "This is wrong. Even if you agree with the action it's hurting you or other people but I'm not going to send you to jail. I'm not going to help you. I'm going to keep shouting from the rooftops that this this is stupid but I'll stop short of depriving you of liberty." The problem with my idea is that people look at that and they say, why go to all that trouble for something you believe is that harmful when you have the power to take one more little step and stop that thing. All you have to do is put one person in jail. The rest will be scared. Ever read "the ones who walk away from omelas". It's that.
Workaccount2 4y ago
I think where the ship runs aground is that sexual things are treated as intrinsically amoral, because people feel its amoral. However, that feeling is no more legitimate than "green is the best color" (because my brain tells me it's the best). Edit: Just want to add - Homosexuality has the same illogical hurdle. It feels immoral to many people, so therefore it must be immoral. People are largely unable to separate their lizard brain instincts from logical analysis. So we end up with gays being stoned to death.
- aliqot 4y ago
  Because free sex makes disease and unwanted children, disease and unwanted children cause/suffer-from problems, disease and problems hurt society. This isn't just moral puritanism, it's for good. Promiscuous sex and many partners irreversibly negatively influences a person's pair-bonding ability at a chemical level, this destroys the family unit and does not benefit the empowered singles and divorced 'pair-couples' we see today promoting this behavior. Hastening the decline is not entertainment, I wish people would stop encouraging it for short term interests and look at the big picture.
  - confidantlake 4y ago
    Teaching safe sex is what prevents disease and unwanted children, not moralizing about sex. There are plenty of well adjusted people who are either in open relationships or have no desire to be in relationships. Being kind and treating people with respect is what strengthens families.
    - aliqot 4y ago
      - A condom won't prevent diseases or unwanted children. - Open relationships do not strengthen "families".
      - teolandon 4y ago
        The fact that you believe that casual sex affects pair bonding ability at the chemical level, but you don't believe that condoms prevent the spread of STIs and pregnancies is concerning.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
giantg2 4y ago
I don't think libertarians are against sharing their opinions or questioning someone's actions. They're mostly just against forcefully applying it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mikotodomo 4y ago
This. Prostitution needs to be carefully regulated or else lots of non consenting situations become possible and incentivized. Prostitution should be legal as it violates basic rights not for it to be, but at the same time there should be safeguards.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> There's a libertarian ethos that says anything between two consenting adults is the their business. I'm more and more skeptical not just of that principle but the self awareness of the people who purport to support it. The issue at hand is not a law. They have issues too, i.e. abortion debacle in US, but at least they are subject to democratic scrutiny, It's the fact that an arbitrary and capricious decision by two private corporations or perhaps moralistic CEO gets to dictate cultural norms for entire society. If visa and mastercard decide to block you, your business / income is dead. Sometimes they will do it at a loss to themselves - like what happened with Tumbler - it was sold and new owners removed porn, started shadowbanning, etc. It is now mostly dead and was sold mutiple times at lower and lower value. Hundreds of millions were wiped out for the sake of marality police. This while thing reeks of Feudalism.
slfnflctd 4y ago
> "What you're doing is crazy. Why would you do that to yourself? Why would you let someone do that to you? Why would you do that to another person?" People who want to amputate perfectly healthy limbs and/or submit themselves to cannibalism are some of the first things that come to my mind here. Most of us would probably agree there should be a line somewhere, especially considering the potential of undiagnosed mental illness.
- tristor 4y ago
  > especially considering the potential of undiagnosed mental illness. Not a popular statement to make, but the reality is that the majority of amateur sex workers (e.g. OF models) have diagnosed or undiagnosed mental illnesses, many have been prior victims of sexual abuse. There's a strong correlation between hypersexuality and involvement in sex work, and hypersexuality is often the result of childhood sexual trauma or mental illnesses like bipolar that can result in hypersexuality as a symptom of manic episodes. So, the question you are putting forward isn't completely limited to the most extreme possibilities. That said, I generally have taken the stance that if someone is able to turn a condition of their existence into something which makes them money and they do so consensually, it is not my business to stop them from doing so. There are definitely deeper and complicated moral and philosophical questions about that though, dealing with the nature of consent and self-actualization. Is it /really/ consensual if someone engages in sex work due to hypersexuality, which was directly caused due to prior sexual trauma? What is consent, and how does it intersect with mental state and competence? Unfortunately, I don't think society is in a place to wrestle with these deeper questions. Mental illness is relatively commonplace, and we have created a condition of existence in the West which encourages neurosis, and often becomes clinical depression or anxiety, at minimum. Our distraction/attention economy fundamentally messes with people's minds... intentionally... to sell us more crap we don't need. It is against the nature of society to consider what the nature of consent is when you exist surrounded by various layers of coercion and depredation.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
tablespoon 4y ago
> There's a libertarian ethos that says anything between two consenting adults is the their business. IMHO, that's one of the libertarian oversimplifications that can make it a supremely seductive ideology. It's basically: throw out all the hard stuff and admire a toy model where all the pieces fit perfectly.

confidantlake 4y ago

I think that is friends/family/social pressure is for. We don't forbid it, but people will look at you sideways if you drink beer at 9 am on a weekday.

slfnflctd 4y ago
There are countless situations where that sort of pressure simply doesn't exist, and likely won't in the future. I also don't think the example you provided is a very good one. Perhaps a better example might be extreme cosmetic surgery (&/or body modification) addicts. Or maybe I should say 'enthusiasts'.
- confidantlake 4y ago
  Yup good point, it wasn't a very good example.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
Social pressure seems sufficient to produce most if not all of the problems described in the source article. Why are chargeback rates so high? Because the customer's spouse found out about the purchase and now they have to pretend it wasn't them. Why won't VCs invest in Onlyfans? Because it would be extremely embarrassing for a partner to attend a board meeting about all the great porn the company's producing.
slillibri 4y ago
> but people will look at you sideways if you drink beer at 9 am on a weekday. This is interesting because it assumes everyone's day to day is exactly the same. When I worked 3rd shift, drinking beer at 9 am wasn't an issue to me because my 9 am wasn't the same as your 9 am. At that point, drinking beer at 9 pm would be odd because that was my morning. Also, my workweek was shifted so my weekend was Monday/Tuesday, so trying to fit everyone into one way of living is simply never going to work.
- confidantlake 4y ago
  Ty for pointing that out, my example was bad. I think this is a good illustration of why being judgemental is not helpful. I completely missed why this is a perfectly normal choice for a lot of people who don't operate like I do.

rayiner 4y ago

> I'm beginning to wonder though if there isn't some space short of stopping a person from doing something That’s why moral norms exist in every human society. Most people need some sort of support from society to make good decisions for themselves and their families. It’s no different than how an exercise or diet regimen is easier to stick to if you do it along with other people to provide support and yes shaming if necessary. Intellectuals project their own capacities onto sex workers, and say that if they did sex work—which they don’t—it would be for “freedom of expression” and “economic rights.” But the fact is that sex work is like myriad other dangerous and unpleasant jobs society has seen fit to regulate or ban. Society seeks to create a floor below which people can’t sink through desperation or bad choices.

Sakos 4y ago
Society? You're painting an awfully broad brush. I absolutely think it should be regulated because of the reasons you name, but it's mainly particular demographics that want sex work banned, and generally these demographics don't actually care about the well-being of sex workers (re: provably negative consequences for sex workers in previous situations where such work was made illegal or otherwise deregulated and punished).
- rayiner 4y ago
  The “particular demographics” who want to ban prostitution include “the majority of women.” https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-men-women-poll https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-me... Women oppose legalized sex work at higher rates than men, because they’d be the ones who would encounter social pressure to do sex work in tough economic circumstances if it became normalized.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Women oppose legalized sex work at higher rates than men, because they’d be the ones who would encounter social pressure to do sex work in tough economic circumstances if it became normalized. I don't think that's the only reason; even a few sex providers can distort the (mostly balanced) market for sex. IOW, if men don't feel the need to date just to get sex then there's fewer men in the market. This means that women have to pay a higher price[1] for the available men, while the available men pay a lower price[2] for any specific woman. [1] Be nicer, be more willing to engage in sex, etc. [2] Be less committed, less involved, etc.

dymk 4y ago

Your first and third paragraph are what lawmakers in e.g. Texas use to ban things like anal sex. Your second paragraph contradicts first and third. I have no idea what the fourth paragraph is trying to say.

hackeraccount 4y ago
If I sound contradictory it's because I'm uncertain. Let's say I, like the people running Iran, think a woman should have her head covered in public. It's good for woman, men and all of us together. What are my options? I can decide that whatever the individuals want the overall badness of an uncovered female head is so great that preventing that is worth sending people to jail. Alternately I could decide that the goodness of letting people make decisions about their own lives is worth the damage that an uncovered female head will do to men, woman and society. It seems like the rule almost everyone uses is "consenting adults can do things that don't harm non-consenting adults" for everything they don't have a problem with. When they have a problem with it they just flip the script by claiming it's not really consenting. It end up being the open sesame of public policy. The other problem I have is that I don't think the view I described is right. There has to be a place we - society, the law, whatever - can sit where we can go, "This is wrong. Even if you agree with the action it's hurting you or other people but I'm not going to send you to jail. I'm not going to help you. I'm going to keep shouting from the rooftops that this this is stupid but I'll stop short of depriving you of liberty." The problem with my idea is that people look at that and they say, why go to all that trouble for something you believe is that harmful when you have the power to take one more little step and stop that thing. All you have to do is put one person in jail. The rest will be scared. Ever read "the ones who walk away from omelas". It's that.

Workaccount2 4y ago

I think where the ship runs aground is that sexual things are treated as intrinsically amoral, because people feel its amoral. However, that feeling is no more legitimate than "green is the best color" (because my brain tells me it's the best). Edit: Just want to add - Homosexuality has the same illogical hurdle. It feels immoral to many people, so therefore it must be immoral. People are largely unable to separate their lizard brain instincts from logical analysis. So we end up with gays being stoned to death.

aliqot 4y ago
Because free sex makes disease and unwanted children, disease and unwanted children cause/suffer-from problems, disease and problems hurt society. This isn't just moral puritanism, it's for good. Promiscuous sex and many partners irreversibly negatively influences a person's pair-bonding ability at a chemical level, this destroys the family unit and does not benefit the empowered singles and divorced 'pair-couples' we see today promoting this behavior. Hastening the decline is not entertainment, I wish people would stop encouraging it for short term interests and look at the big picture.
- confidantlake 4y ago
  Teaching safe sex is what prevents disease and unwanted children, not moralizing about sex. There are plenty of well adjusted people who are either in open relationships or have no desire to be in relationships. Being kind and treating people with respect is what strengthens families.
  - aliqot 4y ago
    - A condom won't prevent diseases or unwanted children. - Open relationships do not strengthen "families".
    - teolandon 4y ago
      The fact that you believe that casual sex affects pair bonding ability at the chemical level, but you don't believe that condoms prevent the spread of STIs and pregnancies is concerning.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

giantg2 4y ago

I don't think libertarians are against sharing their opinions or questioning someone's actions. They're mostly just against forcefully applying it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mikotodomo 4y ago

This. Prostitution needs to be carefully regulated or else lots of non consenting situations become possible and incentivized. Prostitution should be legal as it violates basic rights not for it to be, but at the same time there should be safeguards.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> There's a libertarian ethos that says anything between two consenting adults is the their business. I'm more and more skeptical not just of that principle but the self awareness of the people who purport to support it. The issue at hand is not a law. They have issues too, i.e. abortion debacle in US, but at least they are subject to democratic scrutiny, It's the fact that an arbitrary and capricious decision by two private corporations or perhaps moralistic CEO gets to dictate cultural norms for entire society. If visa and mastercard decide to block you, your business / income is dead. Sometimes they will do it at a loss to themselves - like what happened with Tumbler - it was sold and new owners removed porn, started shadowbanning, etc. It is now mostly dead and was sold mutiple times at lower and lower value. Hundreds of millions were wiped out for the sake of marality police. This while thing reeks of Feudalism.

slfnflctd 4y ago

> "What you're doing is crazy. Why would you do that to yourself? Why would you let someone do that to you? Why would you do that to another person?" People who want to amputate perfectly healthy limbs and/or submit themselves to cannibalism are some of the first things that come to my mind here. Most of us would probably agree there should be a line somewhere, especially considering the potential of undiagnosed mental illness.

tristor 4y ago
> especially considering the potential of undiagnosed mental illness. Not a popular statement to make, but the reality is that the majority of amateur sex workers (e.g. OF models) have diagnosed or undiagnosed mental illnesses, many have been prior victims of sexual abuse. There's a strong correlation between hypersexuality and involvement in sex work, and hypersexuality is often the result of childhood sexual trauma or mental illnesses like bipolar that can result in hypersexuality as a symptom of manic episodes. So, the question you are putting forward isn't completely limited to the most extreme possibilities. That said, I generally have taken the stance that if someone is able to turn a condition of their existence into something which makes them money and they do so consensually, it is not my business to stop them from doing so. There are definitely deeper and complicated moral and philosophical questions about that though, dealing with the nature of consent and self-actualization. Is it /really/ consensual if someone engages in sex work due to hypersexuality, which was directly caused due to prior sexual trauma? What is consent, and how does it intersect with mental state and competence? Unfortunately, I don't think society is in a place to wrestle with these deeper questions. Mental illness is relatively commonplace, and we have created a condition of existence in the West which encourages neurosis, and often becomes clinical depression or anxiety, at minimum. Our distraction/attention economy fundamentally messes with people's minds... intentionally... to sell us more crap we don't need. It is against the nature of society to consider what the nature of consent is when you exist surrounded by various layers of coercion and depredation.
Der_Einzige 4y ago

tablespoon 4y ago

> There's a libertarian ethos that says anything between two consenting adults is the their business. IMHO, that's one of the libertarian oversimplifications that can make it a supremely seductive ideology. It's basically: throw out all the hard stuff and admire a toy model where all the pieces fit perfectly.