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Why is it that if I bribe government officials for myself I get jail time but if I do it for my business I just get a small fine? Edit: This is an honest quest

Why is it that if I bribe government officials for myself I get jail time but if I do it for my business I just get a small fine? Edit: This is an honest question. I understand that there can be prosecutorial discretion and that most 'crimes' go un-prosecuted -- I'm not likely to be "caught" for personal bribes. But given that this reached the threshold of administrative attention I'm curious why the DOJ doesn't coordinate efforts with SEC in cases like this.

O__________O 4y ago
While the SEC has extremely broad investigative and enforcement powers, it cannot file criminal charges. It can, and often does, work with the Department of Justice and the United States Attorney's Office to bring criminal charges.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dragontamer 4y ago
I don't think the SEC has any prisons. Different agencies have different powers. SEC can fine you, or even remove you from public companies. I don't think they can jail you.
- runnerup 4y ago
  Absolutely agree, just not sure why the DOJ doesn't work with the SEC on some of these cases.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    They do
- anonymousab 4y ago
  I think allowing the SEC to "jail" a company - to prevent it from conducting any business or processing any funds for some period of time - would be apt.
arbitrage 4y ago
Because your government exists to protect businesses, not you.
- themitigating 4y ago
  People have the power to change that through voting. If they choose not to whose fault is that?
Retric 4y ago
Is illegal for individual Americans to bribe foreman officials? The only federal laws I can find reference bribes inside America and companies (Ed: or their agents) bribing foreign officials. I guess individual states might have laws but jurisdiction can be an issue.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- roflc0ptic 4y ago
  Check the Foreign Corrupt Practices act
  - Retric 4y ago
    That lists “officer, director, employee, or agent” which makes it clear the aim is in terms of business not say a student on vacation bribing their way out of a traffic ticket. “It shall be unlawful for any issuer which has a class of securities registered pursuant to section 78l of this title or which is required to file reports under section 78o(d) of this title, or for any officer, director, employee, or agent of such issuer or any stockholder thereof acting on behalf of such issuer, to make use of the mails or any means or instrumentality of interstate commerce corruptly in furtherance of an offer, payment, promise to pay, or authorization of the payment of any money, or offer, gift, promise to give, or authorization of the giving of anything of value to--“ https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/legacy/2012/11/14/fcpa-english.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/l... That said, I am not a lawyer so I could be missing something.
    - roflc0ptic 4y ago
      Per my understanding it isn’t strictly illegal to bribe people in foreign countries, just that it’s _often_ illegal, under circumstances I’m pretty vague about - no clue about your example. Also NAL
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Pretty much. If a student bribes their way out a speeding ticket in a foreign country, the laws of that county apply. The US government mostly doesn't care.
_jal 4y ago
There are exceptions, but generally US legal mechanisms function on money. More money buys more consideration. US culture also tends to wink at a lot of what is called "white collar" crime. If whatever you're up to does not involve stealing from specific individuals or rich people, you'll probably get a slap on the wrist. And if you're stealing from the government, a lot of people will commend you, or at least envy you.
CPLX 4y ago
Here's the most succinct answer you're likely to get: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apM0d3M-sps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apM0d3M-sps
- TakeBlaster16 4y ago
  I was expecting George Carlin's "It's a big club and you aren't in it", but yours might be better
- metadat 4y ago
  What movie is this from? I want to see it.
  - CPLX 4y ago
    Syriana. On my top 5 movies of all time list.
    - coredog64 4y ago
      Syriana is a terrible movie. The whole Stinger plot device is dumb. The value of a Stinger is the seeker, not the warhead. A chemist with a large copper bowl can build a self-forging warhead that will hole a ship, whereas a Stinger works by flinging a bunch of high energy shrapnel at a lightweight structure.
      - CPLX 4y ago
        Syriana is a deftly stitched snapshot of the characters and forces at work as the inexorable power of oil money weaves its way through the political system. The mechanics of an implied terrorist attack after the movie ends aren’t important. You’re complaining about the eagles at the end of LOTR.
TuringNYC 4y ago
Lobbying - Legal - When rich people and businesses do it via lawyers and consultants Bribery - Illegal - When poor/unconnected people do the same thing
- whatshisface 4y ago
  That's just not true, lobbying means in the clearer-cut cases simply talking to someone who's been trusted with power and the advocacy groups you'd like do it as much as any corporation or industry consortium.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    "Lobbying" and corruption are inseparable in Washington. Lobbying is how you get access and cut deals. Where there are lobbyists, there's corruption: public interests sacrificed for special private interests (or even foreign interests). Technically you can have lobbying without corruption, but that is sadly not the reality in Washington.
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      Replace lobbying with talking, its synonym, and the above sentences remain true while being a little clearer.
      - pphysch 4y ago
        Talk is cheap. The difficult part is getting people to listen. Lobbying is how you get officials to listen and thereby influence their policy in your favor.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Yes you see... you don't pay the official. You pay his good friend, who talks to the official. The good friend benefits handsomely from the wage you pay to talk. Of course the fact that the good friend is the interface to the official, and that you need money to pay the good friend, that the official himself benefits handsomely in social capital from his good friends being paid this way, and that without the good friend talking you are utterly fucked : well that's all totally not bribery. Basically Pachinko but for bribery.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
The SEC isn't accusing anyone in the US of bribery. Their concern is that Oracle had inadequate documentation requirements for certain kinds of spending and discounts, allowing subsidiaries in other countries to falsely claim their bribes as legitimate business spending. If there were evidence that anyone in the US told people to pay these bribes, that would be a much bigger deal, and in similar cases people have definitely gone to jail for that.
marcosdumay 4y ago
The US gives a fine to a corporation, and ignores if an individual does it. The country where the bribe happens apply whatever local laws and procedures say.
causality0 4y ago
I think you can probably chalk up at least fifty percent of the corporate evil in the world to the fact that choices are personal but consequences are organizational.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
I think it's a little bit about corruption and a little bit about the little guy who pays the price even though 4 levels of managers above him would go free because it would be too hard to prove even though they were the ones who leveraged him to do it.
akomtu 4y ago
Why is that if I exclude personal expenses before paying taxes I get jail time, but if I'm a corporation, not only I can do exactly this, IRS will pay me if my expenses had exceeded profits? And how does it square with the claim that corporations are people, legally speaking? Why do I go to jail for insider trading, but gov officials can exempt themselves from the law and do insider trading "legally"? Why is working for multiple employers is a contract breach, punishable by law, but board members can sit on multiple competing boards? Why bribing city officials to direct funds to my pocket company is a crime, but senior execs can have buddies and family members in high rank gov positions that directly affect the business the exec's company? Because the law is often just a written expression of the will of those who has power over those who doesn't.

O__________O 4y ago

While the SEC has extremely broad investigative and enforcement powers, it cannot file criminal charges. It can, and often does, work with the Department of Justice and the United States Attorney's Office to bring criminal charges.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dragontamer 4y ago

I don't think the SEC has any prisons. Different agencies have different powers. SEC can fine you, or even remove you from public companies. I don't think they can jail you.

runnerup 4y ago
Absolutely agree, just not sure why the DOJ doesn't work with the SEC on some of these cases.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  They do
anonymousab 4y ago
I think allowing the SEC to "jail" a company - to prevent it from conducting any business or processing any funds for some period of time - would be apt.

arbitrage 4y ago

Because your government exists to protect businesses, not you.

themitigating 4y ago
People have the power to change that through voting. If they choose not to whose fault is that?

Retric 4y ago

Is illegal for individual Americans to bribe foreman officials? The only federal laws I can find reference bribes inside America and companies (Ed: or their agents) bribing foreign officials. I guess individual states might have laws but jurisdiction can be an issue.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
roflc0ptic 4y ago
Check the Foreign Corrupt Practices act
- Retric 4y ago
  That lists “officer, director, employee, or agent” which makes it clear the aim is in terms of business not say a student on vacation bribing their way out of a traffic ticket. “It shall be unlawful for any issuer which has a class of securities registered pursuant to section 78l of this title or which is required to file reports under section 78o(d) of this title, or for any officer, director, employee, or agent of such issuer or any stockholder thereof acting on behalf of such issuer, to make use of the mails or any means or instrumentality of interstate commerce corruptly in furtherance of an offer, payment, promise to pay, or authorization of the payment of any money, or offer, gift, promise to give, or authorization of the giving of anything of value to--“ https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/legacy/2012/11/14/fcpa-english.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/l... That said, I am not a lawyer so I could be missing something.
  - roflc0ptic 4y ago
    Per my understanding it isn’t strictly illegal to bribe people in foreign countries, just that it’s _often_ illegal, under circumstances I’m pretty vague about - no clue about your example. Also NAL
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Pretty much. If a student bribes their way out a speeding ticket in a foreign country, the laws of that county apply. The US government mostly doesn't care.

_jal 4y ago

There are exceptions, but generally US legal mechanisms function on money. More money buys more consideration. US culture also tends to wink at a lot of what is called "white collar" crime. If whatever you're up to does not involve stealing from specific individuals or rich people, you'll probably get a slap on the wrist. And if you're stealing from the government, a lot of people will commend you, or at least envy you.

CPLX 4y ago

Here's the most succinct answer you're likely to get: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apM0d3M-sps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apM0d3M-sps

TakeBlaster16 4y ago
I was expecting George Carlin's "It's a big club and you aren't in it", but yours might be better
metadat 4y ago
What movie is this from? I want to see it.
- CPLX 4y ago
  Syriana. On my top 5 movies of all time list.
  - coredog64 4y ago
    Syriana is a terrible movie. The whole Stinger plot device is dumb. The value of a Stinger is the seeker, not the warhead. A chemist with a large copper bowl can build a self-forging warhead that will hole a ship, whereas a Stinger works by flinging a bunch of high energy shrapnel at a lightweight structure.
    - CPLX 4y ago
      Syriana is a deftly stitched snapshot of the characters and forces at work as the inexorable power of oil money weaves its way through the political system. The mechanics of an implied terrorist attack after the movie ends aren’t important. You’re complaining about the eagles at the end of LOTR.

TuringNYC 4y ago

Lobbying - Legal - When rich people and businesses do it via lawyers and consultants Bribery - Illegal - When poor/unconnected people do the same thing

whatshisface 4y ago
That's just not true, lobbying means in the clearer-cut cases simply talking to someone who's been trusted with power and the advocacy groups you'd like do it as much as any corporation or industry consortium.
- pphysch 4y ago
  "Lobbying" and corruption are inseparable in Washington. Lobbying is how you get access and cut deals. Where there are lobbyists, there's corruption: public interests sacrificed for special private interests (or even foreign interests). Technically you can have lobbying without corruption, but that is sadly not the reality in Washington.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Replace lobbying with talking, its synonym, and the above sentences remain true while being a little clearer.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      Talk is cheap. The difficult part is getting people to listen. Lobbying is how you get officials to listen and thereby influence their policy in your favor.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Yes you see... you don't pay the official. You pay his good friend, who talks to the official. The good friend benefits handsomely from the wage you pay to talk. Of course the fact that the good friend is the interface to the official, and that you need money to pay the good friend, that the official himself benefits handsomely in social capital from his good friends being paid this way, and that without the good friend talking you are utterly fucked : well that's all totally not bribery. Basically Pachinko but for bribery.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago

The SEC isn't accusing anyone in the US of bribery. Their concern is that Oracle had inadequate documentation requirements for certain kinds of spending and discounts, allowing subsidiaries in other countries to falsely claim their bribes as legitimate business spending. If there were evidence that anyone in the US told people to pay these bribes, that would be a much bigger deal, and in similar cases people have definitely gone to jail for that.

marcosdumay 4y ago

The US gives a fine to a corporation, and ignores if an individual does it. The country where the bribe happens apply whatever local laws and procedures say.

causality0 4y ago

I think you can probably chalk up at least fifty percent of the corporate evil in the world to the fact that choices are personal but consequences are organizational.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

I think it's a little bit about corruption and a little bit about the little guy who pays the price even though 4 levels of managers above him would go free because it would be too hard to prove even though they were the ones who leveraged him to do it.

akomtu 4y ago

Why is that if I exclude personal expenses before paying taxes I get jail time, but if I'm a corporation, not only I can do exactly this, IRS will pay me if my expenses had exceeded profits? And how does it square with the claim that corporations are people, legally speaking? Why do I go to jail for insider trading, but gov officials can exempt themselves from the law and do insider trading "legally"? Why is working for multiple employers is a contract breach, punishable by law, but board members can sit on multiple competing boards? Why bribing city officials to direct funds to my pocket company is a crime, but senior execs can have buddies and family members in high rank gov positions that directly affect the business the exec's company? Because the law is often just a written expression of the will of those who has power over those who doesn't.