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This sounds extreme to say and I know it is uncouth and might invoke Godwin’s law, but bear with me here… Based on the reactions I got from people I knew and r

This sounds extreme to say and I know it is uncouth and might invoke Godwin’s law, but bear with me here… Based on the reactions I got from people I knew and respected, the last two years showed me exactly how shit like the holocaust went down. How ordinary people like you or me can be filled with so much fear and propaganda that they willingly sent their fellow humans to their demise with a smile on their face. We got incredibly lucky that things didn’t escalate to violence. I mean for Christ sake, we have phone numbers people could call to rat out their neighbors family birthday party. We had police kicking kids and arresting people for using a playground. All it would have taken was some “expert” or politician to give permission to harm those “selfish grandma killers” and it would have been a whole different thing. People I thought I knew and respected completely lost their damn minds. Many have yet to recover. What these “experts” did to society is beyond the pale. Humans may have fancy shiny tools and “science” but we are fundamentally the same superstitious creatures as those who came before us 10’s of thousands of years ago.

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
Beyond the pale is if we started over with Covid XL right now, it would go almost the exact same way again. Everyone would take up the exact same position they had, there will be a little attrition either side. Rabble on the internet all day long. FEAR was made into a VIRTUE. The good people were afraid and did what they were supposed to do. The bad people vote wrong and we don’t listen to them anyhow. Same thing if we play it back.
- LanceH 4y ago
  There have been numerous statements along the lines of "we didn't crack down hard enough". Which would likely translate to more restrictions requiring less evidence. I'm sure the opposite side would aim for greater defiance. The problem with both is we're talking "sides" and not "what should we do based on what we know?" There were far too many politicians involved, and they were all more concerned with appearing to be doing something on our behalf than actually acting in our best interests.
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    Don’t mistake that those are my opinions on how things should, just what was observed. Consider why fear was made into a virtue. You said it, “our best interests“, then look at the lens of Covid, and define that. Who got to say with that exactly was? Can you see any scenario where “Considering who the virus effects, doing nothing special is our best long term approach” would have come out of the government and media?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Depending on who said it and how it was said, it could certainly have happened. It's basically what we did with the bird flu years before, and somewhat with SARS. There may be an argument that if Covid was either more deadly or less deadly it would have had less of an effect.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Disagreements between opposing sides regarding the appropriate pandemic response wouldn't have been resolved by focusing on what we know. Outside of a few fringe groups, most people agreed on what we knew. The disagreements stemmed more from differing values and priorities. And that's not even a problem which needs to be solved, it's just a reality of life in open societies.
    - landemva 4y ago
      > Outside of a few fringe groups, most people agreed on what we knew. Mine Safety Health Administration advice was to stay home when sick and then business as usual. I was on mine sites when others were locked at home double-masked with fear. Nobody was masked on mine sites because it restricts visibility and is unsafe. Do you think MSHA is a fringe group? OSHA tried to mandate masks and shots. It was ridiculous to watch the disparity in responses and fear. MSHA sites are dangerous yet are safe. The OSHA approach was incorrect.
      - spookthesunset 4y ago
        In my observations, the people who are most afraid of Covid and most likely to “take it serious” are those who are white collar and privileged enough to not have to do hard labor. People who do shit for a living that can get them mailed or killed wrote Covid off a long time ago. It takes an incredible amount of privilege to support the Covid mitigations. Consider that not a single person who enacted them missed a single paycheck because of the mandates. I imagine that holds true to most of the people cheering those mandates on or calling them “minor inconveniences”. A lot of privilege needs to be checked here.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  What fatality rate would a pandemic have to have in order for you to agree to the kinds of public health measures that were taken for COVID-19? 10% ? 20% ? 60% ? What kinds of unknowns would justify, in your mind, those sorts of policies?
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    Fatality rate is the wrong point. Fatality rate among specific groups is what matters. In effect young people are at virtually no risk of covid, there is no reason to lock down kids for 2 years. Experts and authorities are running an ongoing farce.
    - lovich 4y ago
      You're dodging their question. You don't have to agree with a number they picked at random, but is there any fatality rate where you would believe that the actions taken by the government in response to covid were justified?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      In that scenario, the alternative is locking up the at-risk population, which would once again require a trade off of costs vs. benefits.
      - spookthesunset 4y ago
        How about letting the at risk people decide for themselves what to do? Not a lot of old people want to die alone isolated in a nursing home with no visitation…. Which is exactly what we did. Let we tried to saved grandma only to (literally) kill her from loneliness and isolation. Absolutely disgusting how many so-called “smart rational” people dismissed it… as if Covid was literally the only thing that mattered and anybody who pointed it out was nothing more than a Fox News watching selfish asshole. To this day people will defend letting people die alone in a hospital or nursing home with only some crappy video conference as a substitute for real human contact. It takes a special kind of monster to support the crap we did to the elderly. There are a worryingly large set of people I used to respect that turned out to be monsters.
jesusofnazarath 4y ago
commandlinefan 4y ago
> showed me exactly how shit like the holocaust went down Gina Carano was fired from Star Wars for making that same comparison - not even denying COVID, just saying, "the holocaust happened because people turned against their neighbors".
- puffoflogic 4y ago
  Thereby demonstrating, unfortunately, that everyone who said the education about the Holocaust could help make it never happen again was completely self-deluded. Apparently we can just keep repeating history anyways.
  - epicureanideal 4y ago
    We only teach holocaust history at a very surface level. Not enough to prevent similar things happening again. Not even close.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Yeah, America only has three of four years of mandatory Holocaust education right now, not nearly enough. We need 3 or 4 times as much at least. Why don't we have a mandatory Holocaust class every day of the week from 1st to 12th grade? We just don't take this issue seriously enough. A few hours of lecture about the Cambodian genocide should be sufficient though. We need to focus more on the Holocaust specifically; that's the important genocide and the rest can safely be treated as footnotes in history. /s
      - nights192 4y ago
        I don't think that epicureanideal was asserting that the Holocaust and the Nazi party in general was overlooked--merely that its coverage is perfunctory, glancing at immediate cause and effect rather than the deeper patterns behind it. I, too, am leary of over-emphasizing German atrocities surrounding WII--heinous though they may have been, there is no paucity of savagery in world history; however, I feel as though your reply is, frankly, a very bad faith reading of what bombcar posted. He appears to be surmising that we're becoming very impulsive in quashing whatever thought appears to impede our immediate policy goals--not that it is the Holocaust in and of itself that is special. (He even goes through the effort of explicitly highlighting it as entirely feasible for a populace to fall to!)
SamPatt 4y ago
Social ostracism and censorship is harm. Shutting down businesses and arresting business owners who refused to comply was harm. Wrecking supply chains and printing egregious amounts of money was harm. Yes, violence was largely avoided. But it was still an extremely harmful period of time.
- bombcar 4y ago
  People seem to think that Germany went from sunshine and flowers to turbo-Hitler overnight; there was a gradual descent and it very definitely went through many of those states. It should be a constant reminder to each of us that we are not special and we are not different - we could and very well may be whipped into a similar frenzy someday.
  - OrvalWintermute 4y ago
    I try to keep that in mind when I read responses with which I personally degree. Behind every comment is an actual person with a valid opinion. I may not agree with it, but perspective is key. Some have said you learn the most listening to a critic/skeptic
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Even if the opinion is highly invalid, wrong, maybe arguably dangerous; the key that there is a person behind it is quite important. It's very easy to forget online, where you often only encounter one aspect of the person in one area.
    - sul_tasto 4y ago
      When I was a boy in the 1980’s I used to hear the phrase, “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” I haven’t heard it said in decades. As such, I find your comment extremely uplifting.
  - nradov 4y ago
    We can see the exact same process repeating in Russia right now. This could lead to consequences far worse than the recent pandemic.
tablespoon 4y ago
> Based on the reactions I got from people I knew and respected, the last two years showed me exactly how shit like the holocaust went down. How ordinary people like you or me can be filled with so much fear and propaganda that they willingly sent their fellow humans to their demise with a smile on their face. We got incredibly lucky that things didn’t escalate to violence.... > All it would have taken was some “expert” or politician to give permission to harm those “selfish grandma killers” and it would have been a whole different thing. That's quite the leap, and frankly reads as self-affirming speculation (e.g. I was right, and the proof is in this fantasy).
rajup 4y ago
Superstition is exactly how I would describe some of these people driving around with masks on in their car with their windows rolled up... (and at this point pretty much anywhere really). I guess this is how superstitions start.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  I used to do that. I did it at a time when we did not understand how limited surface transmission was. I didn't want to remove my mask after the weekly shopping expedition because there was some possibility that viral contamination of the mask surface could be a vector. In addition, I wanted to avoid wiping my hands near my mouth or nose, and simply leaving my mask on until I got home and could wash my hands thoroughly seemed like a good way to ensure that.
  - elenaferrantes 4y ago
    I believe that these type of disease are un-avoidable unless you live 24/24 in plastic suits. The trade-off is too high. I often see comments talking about mild inconvenience. Go tell that to people in china who are locked down and force tested, isolated, masked etc. To me it’s 1984-ish nightmare
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      Does it really have to be said again: FLATTEN THE CURVE Nobody disputed that over time almost everyone would be exposed to COVID-19. The issue was how rapidly that happened, because if it happened too fast, public health systems would be overwhelmed, and then completely treatable injuries and conditions (under normal circumstances) would become potentially fatal.
pers0n 4y ago
In the beginning they had no idea how bad things would get. And keeping the hospitals from being overburdened was a big reason as well. Did they err on the side of safety, yes and thankfully it wasn't a worse virus. I have no doubt even if it had been deadlier people still would of done whatever.
- FartsDomino 4y ago
  I know right, can you imagine how many tigers I would have in my yard if not for all of my anti tiger rocks? I would probably be drowning in them. I just wish my neighbours had the humility to thank me for it.
sul_tasto 4y ago
I am reminded of this character study from 1941 about who goes nazi. https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/ https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago

Beyond the pale is if we started over with Covid XL right now, it would go almost the exact same way again. Everyone would take up the exact same position they had, there will be a little attrition either side. Rabble on the internet all day long. FEAR was made into a VIRTUE. The good people were afraid and did what they were supposed to do. The bad people vote wrong and we don’t listen to them anyhow. Same thing if we play it back.

LanceH 4y ago
There have been numerous statements along the lines of "we didn't crack down hard enough". Which would likely translate to more restrictions requiring less evidence. I'm sure the opposite side would aim for greater defiance. The problem with both is we're talking "sides" and not "what should we do based on what we know?" There were far too many politicians involved, and they were all more concerned with appearing to be doing something on our behalf than actually acting in our best interests.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  Don’t mistake that those are my opinions on how things should, just what was observed. Consider why fear was made into a virtue. You said it, “our best interests“, then look at the lens of Covid, and define that. Who got to say with that exactly was? Can you see any scenario where “Considering who the virus effects, doing nothing special is our best long term approach” would have come out of the government and media?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Depending on who said it and how it was said, it could certainly have happened. It's basically what we did with the bird flu years before, and somewhat with SARS. There may be an argument that if Covid was either more deadly or less deadly it would have had less of an effect.
- nradov 4y ago
  Disagreements between opposing sides regarding the appropriate pandemic response wouldn't have been resolved by focusing on what we know. Outside of a few fringe groups, most people agreed on what we knew. The disagreements stemmed more from differing values and priorities. And that's not even a problem which needs to be solved, it's just a reality of life in open societies.
  - landemva 4y ago
    > Outside of a few fringe groups, most people agreed on what we knew. Mine Safety Health Administration advice was to stay home when sick and then business as usual. I was on mine sites when others were locked at home double-masked with fear. Nobody was masked on mine sites because it restricts visibility and is unsafe. Do you think MSHA is a fringe group? OSHA tried to mandate masks and shots. It was ridiculous to watch the disparity in responses and fear. MSHA sites are dangerous yet are safe. The OSHA approach was incorrect.
    - spookthesunset 4y ago
      In my observations, the people who are most afraid of Covid and most likely to “take it serious” are those who are white collar and privileged enough to not have to do hard labor. People who do shit for a living that can get them mailed or killed wrote Covid off a long time ago. It takes an incredible amount of privilege to support the Covid mitigations. Consider that not a single person who enacted them missed a single paycheck because of the mandates. I imagine that holds true to most of the people cheering those mandates on or calling them “minor inconveniences”. A lot of privilege needs to be checked here.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
What fatality rate would a pandemic have to have in order for you to agree to the kinds of public health measures that were taken for COVID-19? 10% ? 20% ? 60% ? What kinds of unknowns would justify, in your mind, those sorts of policies?
- ekianjo 4y ago
  Fatality rate is the wrong point. Fatality rate among specific groups is what matters. In effect young people are at virtually no risk of covid, there is no reason to lock down kids for 2 years. Experts and authorities are running an ongoing farce.
  - lovich 4y ago
    You're dodging their question. You don't have to agree with a number they picked at random, but is there any fatality rate where you would believe that the actions taken by the government in response to covid were justified?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    In that scenario, the alternative is locking up the at-risk population, which would once again require a trade off of costs vs. benefits.
    - spookthesunset 4y ago
      How about letting the at risk people decide for themselves what to do? Not a lot of old people want to die alone isolated in a nursing home with no visitation…. Which is exactly what we did. Let we tried to saved grandma only to (literally) kill her from loneliness and isolation. Absolutely disgusting how many so-called “smart rational” people dismissed it… as if Covid was literally the only thing that mattered and anybody who pointed it out was nothing more than a Fox News watching selfish asshole. To this day people will defend letting people die alone in a hospital or nursing home with only some crappy video conference as a substitute for real human contact. It takes a special kind of monster to support the crap we did to the elderly. There are a worryingly large set of people I used to respect that turned out to be monsters.

jesusofnazarath 4y ago

commandlinefan 4y ago

> showed me exactly how shit like the holocaust went down Gina Carano was fired from Star Wars for making that same comparison - not even denying COVID, just saying, "the holocaust happened because people turned against their neighbors".

puffoflogic 4y ago
Thereby demonstrating, unfortunately, that everyone who said the education about the Holocaust could help make it never happen again was completely self-deluded. Apparently we can just keep repeating history anyways.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  We only teach holocaust history at a very surface level. Not enough to prevent similar things happening again. Not even close.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Yeah, America only has three of four years of mandatory Holocaust education right now, not nearly enough. We need 3 or 4 times as much at least. Why don't we have a mandatory Holocaust class every day of the week from 1st to 12th grade? We just don't take this issue seriously enough. A few hours of lecture about the Cambodian genocide should be sufficient though. We need to focus more on the Holocaust specifically; that's the important genocide and the rest can safely be treated as footnotes in history. /s
    - nights192 4y ago
      I don't think that epicureanideal was asserting that the Holocaust and the Nazi party in general was overlooked--merely that its coverage is perfunctory, glancing at immediate cause and effect rather than the deeper patterns behind it. I, too, am leary of over-emphasizing German atrocities surrounding WII--heinous though they may have been, there is no paucity of savagery in world history; however, I feel as though your reply is, frankly, a very bad faith reading of what bombcar posted. He appears to be surmising that we're becoming very impulsive in quashing whatever thought appears to impede our immediate policy goals--not that it is the Holocaust in and of itself that is special. (He even goes through the effort of explicitly highlighting it as entirely feasible for a populace to fall to!)

SamPatt 4y ago

Social ostracism and censorship is harm. Shutting down businesses and arresting business owners who refused to comply was harm. Wrecking supply chains and printing egregious amounts of money was harm. Yes, violence was largely avoided. But it was still an extremely harmful period of time.

bombcar 4y ago
People seem to think that Germany went from sunshine and flowers to turbo-Hitler overnight; there was a gradual descent and it very definitely went through many of those states. It should be a constant reminder to each of us that we are not special and we are not different - we could and very well may be whipped into a similar frenzy someday.
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  I try to keep that in mind when I read responses with which I personally degree. Behind every comment is an actual person with a valid opinion. I may not agree with it, but perspective is key. Some have said you learn the most listening to a critic/skeptic
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Even if the opinion is highly invalid, wrong, maybe arguably dangerous; the key that there is a person behind it is quite important. It's very easy to forget online, where you often only encounter one aspect of the person in one area.
  - sul_tasto 4y ago
    When I was a boy in the 1980’s I used to hear the phrase, “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” I haven’t heard it said in decades. As such, I find your comment extremely uplifting.
- nradov 4y ago
  We can see the exact same process repeating in Russia right now. This could lead to consequences far worse than the recent pandemic.

tablespoon 4y ago

> Based on the reactions I got from people I knew and respected, the last two years showed me exactly how shit like the holocaust went down. How ordinary people like you or me can be filled with so much fear and propaganda that they willingly sent their fellow humans to their demise with a smile on their face. We got incredibly lucky that things didn’t escalate to violence.... > All it would have taken was some “expert” or politician to give permission to harm those “selfish grandma killers” and it would have been a whole different thing. That's quite the leap, and frankly reads as self-affirming speculation (e.g. I was right, and the proof is in this fantasy).

rajup 4y ago

Superstition is exactly how I would describe some of these people driving around with masks on in their car with their windows rolled up... (and at this point pretty much anywhere really). I guess this is how superstitions start.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
I used to do that. I did it at a time when we did not understand how limited surface transmission was. I didn't want to remove my mask after the weekly shopping expedition because there was some possibility that viral contamination of the mask surface could be a vector. In addition, I wanted to avoid wiping my hands near my mouth or nose, and simply leaving my mask on until I got home and could wash my hands thoroughly seemed like a good way to ensure that.
- elenaferrantes 4y ago
  I believe that these type of disease are un-avoidable unless you live 24/24 in plastic suits. The trade-off is too high. I often see comments talking about mild inconvenience. Go tell that to people in china who are locked down and force tested, isolated, masked etc. To me it’s 1984-ish nightmare
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    Does it really have to be said again: FLATTEN THE CURVE Nobody disputed that over time almost everyone would be exposed to COVID-19. The issue was how rapidly that happened, because if it happened too fast, public health systems would be overwhelmed, and then completely treatable injuries and conditions (under normal circumstances) would become potentially fatal.

pers0n 4y ago

In the beginning they had no idea how bad things would get. And keeping the hospitals from being overburdened was a big reason as well. Did they err on the side of safety, yes and thankfully it wasn't a worse virus. I have no doubt even if it had been deadlier people still would of done whatever.

FartsDomino 4y ago
I know right, can you imagine how many tigers I would have in my yard if not for all of my anti tiger rocks? I would probably be drowning in them. I just wish my neighbours had the humility to thank me for it.

sul_tasto 4y ago

I am reminded of this character study from 1941 about who goes nazi. https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/ https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/