6 ms·

this will sound super unscientific (because it is) but I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical pheno

this will sound super unscientific (because it is) but I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical phenomena. as in, if life is an emergent property of the universe, then surely it has all the tools of that universe at its disposal. Including ones we don't know about yet. In the case of this article, it seems like quantum tunneling could be damaging to DNA. I wonder if any other aspect of life depends on quantum tunneling to function? /end of gibberish. I'm out of my league here. Just having fun speculating.

NoraCodes 4y ago
> I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical phenomena. I mean, in the sense that we don't fully understand how many parts of cells work, definitely, but probably not in the sense of undiscovered physical underpinnings. > I wonder if any other aspect of life depends on quantum tunneling to function? Possibly! It may help birds navigate by magnetoperception: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01725-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01725-1
- edgyquant 4y ago
  To be frank “probably” is an exaggeration since we have no reason to make a suggestion either way
leetrout 4y ago
I like to speculate about quantum consciousness and that our brains are not closed systems.
- leetrout 4y ago
  I cannot edit my comment but for those that are not familiar > The quantum mind or quantum consciousness is a group of hypotheses proposing that classical mechanics cannot explain consciousness. It posits that quantum-mechanical phenomena, such as entanglement and superposition, may play an important part in the brain's function and could explain consciousness. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind
klabb3 4y ago
> it seems like quantum tunneling could be damaging to DNA Copy errors are not the same as damage. Or "the optimal amount of copy-errors is non-zero".
edgyquant 4y ago
Read Kant, this isn’t unscientific people who believe physics has to be the only source of answers are the unscientific ones. Now claiming to have proof of this and not being able to prove it, that’s unscientific.
michael_j_x 4y ago
I remember reading somewhere about our brain synapses exhibiting quantum effects
noduerme 4y ago
Well, there was the bees: http://discovermagazine.com/1997/nov/quantumhoneybees1263/ http://discovermagazine.com/1997/nov/quantumhoneybees1263/ and another poster mentioned the birds... https://www.wired.com/2011/01/quantum-birds/ https://www.wired.com/2011/01/quantum-birds/
was_a_dev 4y ago
Photosynthesis has long been suggested to be quantum in nature. https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/ https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/
gilleain 4y ago
There's a book called 'Quantum Evolution' by Johnjoe McFadden that tries to answer the question of what processes in biology exploit quantum effects. An obvious one is photon capture in photosynthesis that seems to rely on quantum effects to transfer energy around the antenna complex. I'm no doubt mangling that explanation, so see : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology#Photosynthesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology#Photosynthes...
jvm___ 4y ago
Our sense of smell is still unknownish as to how we detect so many different smells without clogging up the smell receptors.
- eurasiantiger 4y ago
  The olfactory system is in fact rather extensively studied. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_receptor_neuron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_receptor_neuron
- edgyquant 4y ago
  I’m an idealist, I believe space time is a creation of human minds etc. So take this as constructive criticism. Science exists to help us understand the universe so please don’t talk out of your ass like this. Religion is at an all time low because the religious talk out of their ass about easy to disprove shit like this. God doesn’t rely on trickery he’s the greatest architect their ever was. So yeah, we most certainly know how the sense of smell works this is HN half of us write classifiers for fun or profit.
robochat 4y ago
There's been some hypotheses of photosynthesis relying on quantum effects to improve its efficiency but it's still contentious the last that I checked [1]. [1] https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/ https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago
  From what I remember, photosynthesis directly deals with photons, electrons (e-) , and protons (H+), so I'd say it's a quantum process to begin with?
_yb2s 4y ago
> this will sound super unscientific (because it is) but I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical phenomena. I strongly disagree that creatively speculating about the possible limits of our knowledge is unscientific. This type of thinking is essential for scientific discovery. The attitude that you are referencing is scientism, which is an irrational (and non-scientific) over-confidence in the power of our existing knowledge and authority figures in scientific fields. Indeed, much of the mechanisms behind life remain a mystery, and could very well involve undiscovered physics. There's no way for us to know yet how much physics remains undiscovered. What if there are phenomena as important and fundamental as say, electricity that remains to be discovered? To me, as a researcher in biotech, I wouldn't be so surprised by such a thing, because of how frustratingly unpredictable living systems are... it would be fully consistent with what we see to have something really really big that we've been missing all along.
- Supermancho 4y ago
  Chomsky's surprisingly insightful thinking on the limits of human knowledge, and the consequences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0&t=2953s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0&t=2953s
anothernewdude 4y ago
I think Qualia depends on things that are wholly outside the realm of physical phenomena, in that they come before physics. I don't think the two are really in conflict. That said, all the quantum stuff is incredibly beyond me.
- User23 4y ago
  > That said, all the quantum stuff is incredibly beyond me. QED[1] will make it as clear to you as possible. Feynman conceived it as, paraphrasing, "explaining quantum physics to a housewife" which to our ear sounds vaguely offensive, but charitably construed for the time in which he said it means making it accessible to someone who has a lot of other responsibilities and doesn't have a ton of time to dedicate to learning advanced physics. It's a really neat book in that it explains the principles pretty much perfectly, while eliding the advanced techniques needed for practical computation of predictions. The analogy given is that you could teach someone to do calculus with nothing more than jars of rocks. It wouldn't be efficient, but it would be correct. "Rock" incidentally, is the Latin root for calculus. If you find the role of the complex numbers as fascinating as I did, then Visual Complex Analysis[2] is another great read. It's considerably more challenging than QED, but on the other hand it clarified a bunch of things for me that my high school and college mathematics courses failed to explain and just presented as givens. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/202469.Quantum_Electrodynamics https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/202469.Quantum_Electrody... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/149800.Visual_Complex_Analysis https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/149800.Visual_Complex...
emsy 4y ago
Doesn’t even have to be an unknown effect, just known effects we’re not aware are at work would be a huge discovery.
reaperducer 4y ago
I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical phenomena It does. It wasn't that long ago in the human story that we didn't know about/believe in viruses, bacteria, hydrogen, radiation, and a thousand other things. It's always amusing to see people on HN claim that there's nothing big left to discover because science already has all the answers. No, it doesn't. Science is the search for answers.
copperx 4y ago
Having an hypothesis isn't unscientific. You just need to make it testable.
avz 4y ago
This is not unscientific. Since we don't have a single unified and consistent theory of everything, it is very reasonable to suspect that not all laws of physics are known to us now. The quest to uncover the unknown laws is one of the major motivations to do basic scientific research. It is often done at the extremes: extremely high energy, extremely small scale, extremely large scale and many think we should try extremely complex systems of which life is an excellent example. There is absolutely no reason why evolution wouldn't take advantage of physical laws which we don't know or are unable to recognize. For a random example of a physics article demonstrating such search, see https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4546 https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4546
otikik 4y ago
> then surely it has all the tools of that universe at its disposal. Interesting proposal. I honestly doubt it. Black holes are tricky, for example. But some would say that “they are not exactly part of the universe”. Anyway I think time and space “break” inside of them, and those two are needed for Life, however you define it.
- Filligree 4y ago
  If nothing else, the ability to exist for more than ${radius of black hole, in light-seconds} seconds is necessary in order for evolution to work.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
d_tr 4y ago
> I wonder if any other aspect of life depends on quantum tunneling to function? Life has for sure adapted to quantum tunneling as part of the environment, since it plays a role in the rates of all the chemical reactions that sustain life.
jakobnissen 4y ago
When I was a student, some known enzymes had a catalytic efficiency higher than the theoretical maximum (i.e. they were faster than kinetically perfect enzymes. This has since been resolved by refining the model of substrate diffusion, but for years (decades?), it meant that some enzymes were using a mechanism that had not yet been discovered. Edit: I just looked it up, and it appears at least one enzyme has exploited quantum tunnelling to achieve these impossiby-high production rates. That was taught to us as a fringe theory when I was a student.
qrian 4y ago
There's also [Quantum Smell Theory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJsJIVXkrGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJsJIVXkrGQ) where quantum tunneling is proposed as the primary mechanism for detecting the shape of a molecule being smelled.

NoraCodes 4y ago

> I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical phenomena. I mean, in the sense that we don't fully understand how many parts of cells work, definitely, but probably not in the sense of undiscovered physical underpinnings. > I wonder if any other aspect of life depends on quantum tunneling to function? Possibly! It may help birds navigate by magnetoperception: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01725-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01725-1

edgyquant 4y ago
To be frank “probably” is an exaggeration since we have no reason to make a suggestion either way

leetrout 4y ago

I like to speculate about quantum consciousness and that our brains are not closed systems.

leetrout 4y ago
I cannot edit my comment but for those that are not familiar > The quantum mind or quantum consciousness is a group of hypotheses proposing that classical mechanics cannot explain consciousness. It posits that quantum-mechanical phenomena, such as entanglement and superposition, may play an important part in the brain's function and could explain consciousness. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

klabb3 4y ago

> it seems like quantum tunneling could be damaging to DNA Copy errors are not the same as damage. Or "the optimal amount of copy-errors is non-zero".

edgyquant 4y ago

Read Kant, this isn’t unscientific people who believe physics has to be the only source of answers are the unscientific ones. Now claiming to have proof of this and not being able to prove it, that’s unscientific.

michael_j_x 4y ago

I remember reading somewhere about our brain synapses exhibiting quantum effects

noduerme 4y ago

Well, there was the bees: http://discovermagazine.com/1997/nov/quantumhoneybees1263/ http://discovermagazine.com/1997/nov/quantumhoneybees1263/ and another poster mentioned the birds... https://www.wired.com/2011/01/quantum-birds/ https://www.wired.com/2011/01/quantum-birds/

was_a_dev 4y ago

Photosynthesis has long been suggested to be quantum in nature. https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/ https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/

gilleain 4y ago

There's a book called 'Quantum Evolution' by Johnjoe McFadden that tries to answer the question of what processes in biology exploit quantum effects. An obvious one is photon capture in photosynthesis that seems to rely on quantum effects to transfer energy around the antenna complex. I'm no doubt mangling that explanation, so see : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology#Photosynthesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology#Photosynthes...

jvm___ 4y ago

Our sense of smell is still unknownish as to how we detect so many different smells without clogging up the smell receptors.

eurasiantiger 4y ago
The olfactory system is in fact rather extensively studied. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_receptor_neuron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_receptor_neuron
edgyquant 4y ago
I’m an idealist, I believe space time is a creation of human minds etc. So take this as constructive criticism. Science exists to help us understand the universe so please don’t talk out of your ass like this. Religion is at an all time low because the religious talk out of their ass about easy to disprove shit like this. God doesn’t rely on trickery he’s the greatest architect their ever was. So yeah, we most certainly know how the sense of smell works this is HN half of us write classifiers for fun or profit.

robochat 4y ago

There's been some hypotheses of photosynthesis relying on quantum effects to improve its efficiency but it's still contentious the last that I checked [1]. [1] https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/ https://physicsworld.com/a/is-photosynthesis-quantum-ish/

Kim_Bruning 4y ago
From what I remember, photosynthesis directly deals with photons, electrons (e-) , and protons (H+), so I'd say it's a quantum process to begin with?

_yb2s 4y ago

> this will sound super unscientific (because it is) but I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical phenomena. I strongly disagree that creatively speculating about the possible limits of our knowledge is unscientific. This type of thinking is essential for scientific discovery. The attitude that you are referencing is scientism, which is an irrational (and non-scientific) over-confidence in the power of our existing knowledge and authority figures in scientific fields. Indeed, much of the mechanisms behind life remain a mystery, and could very well involve undiscovered physics. There's no way for us to know yet how much physics remains undiscovered. What if there are phenomena as important and fundamental as say, electricity that remains to be discovered? To me, as a researcher in biotech, I wouldn't be so surprised by such a thing, because of how frustratingly unpredictable living systems are... it would be fully consistent with what we see to have something really really big that we've been missing all along.

Supermancho 4y ago
Chomsky's surprisingly insightful thinking on the limits of human knowledge, and the consequences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0&t=2953s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0&t=2953s

anothernewdude 4y ago

I think Qualia depends on things that are wholly outside the realm of physical phenomena, in that they come before physics. I don't think the two are really in conflict. That said, all the quantum stuff is incredibly beyond me.

User23 4y ago
> That said, all the quantum stuff is incredibly beyond me. QED[1] will make it as clear to you as possible. Feynman conceived it as, paraphrasing, "explaining quantum physics to a housewife" which to our ear sounds vaguely offensive, but charitably construed for the time in which he said it means making it accessible to someone who has a lot of other responsibilities and doesn't have a ton of time to dedicate to learning advanced physics. It's a really neat book in that it explains the principles pretty much perfectly, while eliding the advanced techniques needed for practical computation of predictions. The analogy given is that you could teach someone to do calculus with nothing more than jars of rocks. It wouldn't be efficient, but it would be correct. "Rock" incidentally, is the Latin root for calculus. If you find the role of the complex numbers as fascinating as I did, then Visual Complex Analysis[2] is another great read. It's considerably more challenging than QED, but on the other hand it clarified a bunch of things for me that my high school and college mathematics courses failed to explain and just presented as givens. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/202469.Quantum_Electrodynamics https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/202469.Quantum_Electrody... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/149800.Visual_Complex_Analysis https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/149800.Visual_Complex...

emsy 4y ago

Doesn’t even have to be an unknown effect, just known effects we’re not aware are at work would be a huge discovery.

reaperducer 4y ago

I've always wondered if the body (or life in general) relies upon any unknown/undiscovered physical phenomena It does. It wasn't that long ago in the human story that we didn't know about/believe in viruses, bacteria, hydrogen, radiation, and a thousand other things. It's always amusing to see people on HN claim that there's nothing big left to discover because science already has all the answers. No, it doesn't. Science is the search for answers.

copperx 4y ago

Having an hypothesis isn't unscientific. You just need to make it testable.

avz 4y ago

This is not unscientific. Since we don't have a single unified and consistent theory of everything, it is very reasonable to suspect that not all laws of physics are known to us now. The quest to uncover the unknown laws is one of the major motivations to do basic scientific research. It is often done at the extremes: extremely high energy, extremely small scale, extremely large scale and many think we should try extremely complex systems of which life is an excellent example. There is absolutely no reason why evolution wouldn't take advantage of physical laws which we don't know or are unable to recognize. For a random example of a physics article demonstrating such search, see https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4546 https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4546

otikik 4y ago

> then surely it has all the tools of that universe at its disposal. Interesting proposal. I honestly doubt it. Black holes are tricky, for example. But some would say that “they are not exactly part of the universe”. Anyway I think time and space “break” inside of them, and those two are needed for Life, however you define it.

Filligree 4y ago
If nothing else, the ability to exist for more than ${radius of black hole, in light-seconds} seconds is necessary in order for evolution to work.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

d_tr 4y ago

> I wonder if any other aspect of life depends on quantum tunneling to function? Life has for sure adapted to quantum tunneling as part of the environment, since it plays a role in the rates of all the chemical reactions that sustain life.

jakobnissen 4y ago

When I was a student, some known enzymes had a catalytic efficiency higher than the theoretical maximum (i.e. they were faster than kinetically perfect enzymes. This has since been resolved by refining the model of substrate diffusion, but for years (decades?), it meant that some enzymes were using a mechanism that had not yet been discovered. Edit: I just looked it up, and it appears at least one enzyme has exploited quantum tunnelling to achieve these impossiby-high production rates. That was taught to us as a fringe theory when I was a student.

qrian 4y ago

There's also [Quantum Smell Theory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJsJIVXkrGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJsJIVXkrGQ) where quantum tunneling is proposed as the primary mechanism for detecting the shape of a molecule being smelled.