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Interesting to see the amount of negative comments. Most of the negativity seems to come from the following points: - EU-funded project cannot succeed in tech
by margarina72 4y ago
Interesting to see the amount of negative comments.
Most of the negativity seems to come from the following points:
- EU-funded project cannot succeed in tech because previous EU-funded projects have failed in tech in the past (and generally government-funded project in tech are suspicious)
- Search is hard, and therefore it will fail
- The project is underfunded
Even if the points above can all be valid (though the obvious US-funded startup launched by a bunch of uni students seemed to have fared pretty well) it seems we are missing the point of this project.
The proposal is to contribute to the creation of open building blocks necessary to enable others (including private US companies) to make better search products.
Better search product are needed.
Shall we remember HN of some of the intense conversations that happened here about Google failing us:
- Google Search is Dying [1]
- Every Google result now looks like an ad [2]
- Google no longer producing high quality search results in significant categories [3]
So while, yes search is a hard topic, we should welcome initiatives aiming at improving the ground infrastructure needed to lower the barrier to entry on this subject and hope it will allow many companies to build better search products (or inspire other initiatives to contribute in similar and even more successful way)
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30347719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30347719
2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22107823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22107823
3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29772136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29772136
- Proven 4y ago[dead]
- ffhhj 4y agoIf these thinkers can find a way to remove the incentives of spammers, misinformators, and stakeholders to pollute results, that would be a great achievement. It could be seen as a big economic game, simulating these actors might allow comming up with rules to balance this game and minimize pollution.
- petre 4y agoIt might be possible using moderation and reporting abuse or registering with the search engine to aid moderation and banning abusers. This will probably also take down right wing websites, porn and online gambling.
- p1necone 4y ago> EU-funded project cannot succeed in tech Not sure about software, but all (well, Apple is getting there) phones now use the same connector to charge because of the EU.
- sschueller 4y agoThe new iPhone 14 still has a lightening connector.
- yarg 4y ago2024.
- 6510 4y agoWe have Estonian which is like a laboratory for govtech complete with human test subjects. They are making the automation focused law sausage.
- closedloop129 4y agoWasn't China's unified standard from about 2007 much more influential?
- lock-the-spock 4y agoWhich standard?
- closedloop129 4y agoSome standard about unified chargers.
- kazinator 4y agoSpeaking of Google and ads; I witnessed a new low today. My 3 going on 4 kid was watching a cartoon on Youtube: Curious George. An ad popped up promoting some show, featuring foul language and sexual intercourse. Yagoddabekidding.
- tlarkworthy 4y agoI have YouTube premium. Everytime my kids get exposed to even age appropriate àds it generates attraction to crap. Even in magazines for kids. So I just keep ads out of their system and they seem happier and more internally satisfied
- harha 4y agoI've recently been searching for some how-to videos and the number of ads is insane - but somehow they don't show when I watch in the video search results in DuckDuckGo
- easrng 4y agoI'm pretty sure YouTube doesn't play ads in embeds (as much?)
- april_22 4y agoSame here, not using YouTube's built in search function eliminates most of the ad and also recommendations problems. I use You.com since they additionally show Reddit and TikTok results which I sometimes find more useful than YT videos.
- eurasiantiger 4y agoAdvertisements are essentially artificial reminders of how unsatisfying and difficult life is without $PRODUCT.
- guerrilla 4y agoPretty much a form of psychological abuse and manipulation.
- wbl 4y agoOne reason search is hard is people are very motivated to game your system. That makes being transparent about how it works a fool's errand. It also isn't clear how the economic structure works: improving search relevance by x% is tremendously socially valuable, but probably makes Google's bottom line go up by a thousandth of x, and they have a very direct understanding of the connection. Without that money, how will this get the resources to succeed given the adversaries are learning from the people with a lot more?
- systemvoltage 4y agoExactly, I think the failure of such project is embedded in the incentives. OpenMaps are good but you’re not going to convince Google to make them default on Android. The correct strategy isn’t to hand this over to a giant bureaucracy, but to create an atmosphere where we can have a dozen alternatives to Google.
- cloutchaser 4y agoThe only way you can beat google is to create a search engine in a small niche where they can’t compete, then eventually over the years expand into general search once they can’t catch up (innovators dilemma basically). The only search product that comes close to this is Amazon search or booking.com (or maybe YouTube). All multi billion dollar businesses. And when smaller ones emerge like the flight scanner one, google buys them. I don’t see google going anywhere soon. They have a lot of faults but they’re still too good.
- supermatt 4y ago> The only search product that comes close to this is Amazon search or booking.com (or maybe YouTube). What is so great about those search examples?
- aydyn 4y agoAbsolutely nothing, Amazon search is horrendous. Search by price is completely broken (and has been for years). Filter by exact phrase is non-existent. No way to search products by size, and on and on.
- tyiz 4y agoWasn’t Google financed by Darpa? It was always planned big. The student story is bogus.
- lurkernomore 4y agoAny new open-source search option is good, but I also wish more attention was given to prior open projects like GigaBlast[0]/KBlast[1] crawlers, etc. It hasn't escaped the wider world that quality open-source search is desirable, and it's hard to think what this new EU project brings to the table that isn't already available if others want to contribute to existing efforts. I wish the EU project the best of luck of course! [0] https://github.com/gigablast/open-source-search-engine https://github.com/gigablast/open-source-search-engine [1] https://github.com/fossabot/kblast https://github.com/fossabot/kblast
- sanxiyn 4y agoPyPy was funded by EU. I would be very happy if this project is as successful as PyPy.
- WHATDOESIT 4y ago"Funded by" is very distinct from what's happening here. This is another Gaia-x, remember, the EU big tech cloud killer?
- arjenpdevries 4y agoThis is not a Gaia-X, it is an exploratory project, showing a possible way forward and setting first steps.
- WHATDOESIT 4y ago
- dagw 4y agoEU providing tiny amounts of seed funding to and existing project to bootstrap a small proof of concept is entirely different from the EU trying to essentially create a tech giant.
- vanderZwan 4y ago> EU-funded project cannot succeed in tech because previous EU-funded projects have failed in tech in the past (and generally government-funded project in tech are suspicious) Do we distinguish direct EU funding from funding by governments of EU countries? If not ASML would like a word, and I'm sure people from other member countries can come up with other examples.
- nonethewiser 4y agoYou forgot people not trusting the government to curate information.
- kidsil 4y agoand generally government-funded project in tech are suspicious Like the Internet, or the WWW?
- permo-w 4y agoor computers themselves
- logifail 4y ago> EU-funded project cannot succeed in tech because previous EU-funded projects have failed in tech in the past (and generally government-funded project in tech are suspicious) I'm not suspicious of all government-funded projects (back in the day my own PhD was government-funded!) but I can't help be suspicious of claims such as: "an open European infrastructure for internet search, based on European values and jurisdiction" and "The project will be contributing to Europe’s digital sovereignty" Q1: Who defines "European values"? Is that done by Qualified Majority voting or would - for instance - Hungary have a veto on any proposed definition? Q2: Which treaties regulate "digital sovereignty"? Recalling that the 27 member states each "remain sovereign and independent"[0], is that digital sovereignty being handled in BRU, in the 27 states, or a mixture of both? [0] https://op.europa.eu/webpub/com/eu-what-it-is/en/ https://op.europa.eu/webpub/com/eu-what-it-is/en/
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago>"an open European infrastructure for internet search, based on European values and jurisdiction" jurisdiction = GDPR will not be cheated. European = We mistrust America, because they do crappy stuff that meant we had to pass GDPR. >Europe’s digital sovereignty Means - Europe will not be ruled by interests outside Europe, the interests inside Europe can fight it out via EU procedures.
- logifail 4y ago> jurisdiction = GDPR will not be cheated Are there (m)any global search engines with European users who are "cheating" GDPR? Which ones? > Europe will not be ruled by interests outside Europe That's a very bold claim, especially considering the geopolitical situation right now. > the interests inside Europe can fight it out via EU procedures Would that be the interests of the estimated 25k-30k lobbyists who work in Brussels on behalf of their corporate paymasters?
- bryanrasmussen 4y agoare you reading my post as being a statement that these will be the results instead of my providing an interpretation of what the original EU text means? >Would that be the interests of the estimated 25k-30k lobbyists who work in Brussels on behalf of their corporate paymasters? probably, as well as the various governments that exist in the EU.
- mariusor 4y ago> EU-funded project cannot succeed in tech because previous EU-funded projects have failed in tech in the past I think the fundamental problem here is that the people that are interested and in grants and are capable of writing grant proposals are different than the people that are interested in building things. There's very little overlap. So the money goes to the people capable of writing proposals, and the people doing the work do it for free in an obscure corner of the internet. It's sad really, but I suspect it's a side effect of the huge bureaucratical machine that is the EU. One way to make this better would be to simplify the access to grants so that technical people can do it without needing a class in "EU funding speech".