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CPSC warns consumers to stop using male-to-male extension cords sold on Amazon

h2odragon 4y ago
I recall a holocaust among hand crafted toys, a few years ago: They were enforcing "materiel origin" labeling or something and you couldn't sell home made toys without a lot of paperwork to certify they were lead free. Amazon is too big for laws to apply, and its umbrella apparently covers foreign sellers on its platform. Another fun toy they sell is the "heated shower heads", a tankless water heater element integrated with a shower head, and usually provided with a standard electrical cord. The safety of these items is obviously good enough that we don't have multiple stories of electrocutions from them, but it doesn't seem right that Amazon can sell these to people where Lowes and other hardware stores cannot.
- mmastrac 4y ago
  At some point they just became too big for government to manage compliance with existing laws - that should have a sign that it was time to start looking at breaking them up. I cannot believe the volume of crap I'm getting from Amazon. The quality of products has nose-dived and I no longer trust them for purchasing easily-counterfeited items (like SD cards).
  - fullstop 4y ago
    That, and the brands are clearly from a Chinese Name Generator, so you end up with Rabbitgoo branded products. Once those start to fail or enough people leave bad reviews the company disappears and pops up again as Luckyfang. It's whack-a-mole, and untrustworthy. If I wanted those products I'd shop aliexpress.
    - mmastrac 4y ago
      Ah yes, the Ali* name generator machine. If all I can find are Rabbitgoo/Luckyfang products on Amazon, I just skip the middleman and order from AliExpress. I don't even trust the middlemen to stand behind the products these days. Most of the time they just relabel it with a more western name and don't add any sort of QA -- just drop-shipping.
    - geocrasher 4y ago
      This is my sentiment, too. I tried to shop for $20-30 dress shirts in 6XLT, and it was a hot mess of availability and off brands. No thanks. Spent $70 at a local store instead.
- abracadaniel 4y ago
  Funny how quickly the sales tax loophole was fixed, since it directly affected legislatures, but bypassing consumer protection laws at massive scales gets ignored.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Once Amazon went national and retail is already on life support, the sales tax loophole didn’t have much protection. It just made it easier for smaller competitors to take some of their business. Especially nowadays when eBay even collects sales taxes on sales into states (even sales from me as a Canadian).
- zibby8 4y ago
  Are you sure that Lowes can't sell heated shower heads? Maybe they choose not to sell them for liability reasons.
  - ABeeSea 4y ago
    Or demand reasons. If Amazon only sells a couple dozen a year, they just need to keep a few in a single warehouse at all times whereas lowes would need to keep it in stock in a minimum number of stores that is greater than 1.
    - ridgered4 4y ago
      My experience with Lowes has been they "carry" many items that can actually only be shipped to you or the store after being purchased online.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LeifCarrotson 4y ago
    Don't pretend that "liability reasons" is due to ethical concerns about the safety of the product. Someone would buy it off a shelf at Lowes, would take Lowes to court, and Lowes would lose. It wouldn't be profitable. Conversely, if someone bought a dodgy product from a drop-shipper listing on Amazon and got hurt by it, do you think that Amazon would be successfully sued? Empirically, that happens but they're still profitable and and still not refusing to list products for safety except in the most egregious circumstances. Would you sue the drop-shipper? They'd probably disappear or have zero assets. Would you sue the overseas manufacturer? Good luck with that! The fact that it's profitable for Amazon and not for Lowes is exactly what the parent meant when they said "...it doesn't seem right that Amazon can sell these to people where Lowes and other hardware stores cannot."
    - culturestate 4y ago
      > Don't pretend that "liability reasons" is due to ethical concerns about the safety of the product. Someone would buy it off a shelf at Lowes, would take Lowes to court, and Lowes would lose. Is this not exactly what “liability reasons” implies? Surely if it was an ethical argument they would’ve written “ethical reasons” instead.
- tyingq 4y ago
  There's a terrifying teardown of one of those heated shower heads here: https://hackaday.com/2018/08/25/electric-shower-head-tear-down-makes-us-wince/ https://hackaday.com/2018/08/25/electric-shower-head-tear-do... When he opens it, the ground wire is just floating in the enclosure, not hooked up to anything. Contacts that would mechanically fail to shorted, etc. He also mentions it flows ~24 amps of 220V on the high setting.
  - mmastrac 4y ago
    > The green wire which is a neutral has no place to fasten inside the plastic body. It just goes inside, connects to nothing, while being exposed in the path of the water, presumably to keep water that was too conductive from shocking you I have nothing to say to this. Wow.
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Maybe I’m dumb but what else would the ground on a completely plastic enclosure be connected to?
      - tyingq 4y ago
        The ground wire is floating in an area that would have water in it, sometimes being electrically connected to the water, sometimes not, depending on the flow, how the wire is bent, etc. He measures leaking voltage to the pipe and the water and gets readings. There are actual safe inline electric water heaters with inbuilt GFCI, proper grounding, probably other protective circuits, etc.
  - Shorel 4y ago
    I used them for over 20 years in South America. I even burned them many times, to the dismay of my dad. I burned them because I wanted hotter water, and closed the water line as much as I can, the resistance heated up to red and then melted. The fact that ground contacts the water is by design. As far as I know, no one has ever been electrocuted by using one of these showers, not even me, so used to burn them. The only reason I use gas heaters now is: I can shower with hot enough water for a long time. So that teardown can be terrifying to you, but millions of South Americans pay no attention to such fear mongering at all. They are safe for people.
- ridgered4 4y ago
  IIRC that lead law was spawned in response to Mattel selling lead painted toys and Mattel was made exempt!
- stefan_ 4y ago
  Amazon is the magic law blanket. They take the payment, they store the goods, they ship the wares.. but it's WAGANFU brand that they have no serviceable address for that is responsible?
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Gotta love limited liability! I believe American Express was one of the last public companies to convert from unlimited liability to limited.
    - morpheuskafka 4y ago
      That's not what limited liability means. It's about the owners/investors/shareholders of the company not being personally liable for debts (court judgements or loan payments) in excess of the company's assets. Without it, simply holding stock in a company could theoretically expose someone to unlimited losses if the company had more liabilities than assets for whatever reason. A history of the application of limited liability to corporations: https://www.bus.umich.edu/KresgeLibrary/resources/abla/abld_4.1.11-33.pdf https://www.bus.umich.edu/KresgeLibrary/resources/abla/abld_.... The term "limited liability company" was created much more recently to as a sort of corporation-lite entity that had this essential attribute without all the other corporate formalities. The tax laws decided to treat LLCs as non-corporations unless the elected otherwise, removing one of the major costs of having the liability protection. Partnerships, the default/unorganized form of joint business ventures, do not have liability protection. Later, limited partnerships were created that did, but limited partners could not participate in everyday business. Thus, the corporation and later LLC were the only forms that allowed managing investors to protect themselves from excess business liability. This has nothing to do with whether or not Amazon is liable for products third parties sell on their site.
- cyral 4y ago
  And of course the "brands" selling these products are under random names like SFHBEE that will disappear overnight. No accountability if anything goes wrong. This is a good thread on it: https://twitter.com/ColeSouth/status/1550230795230781440 https://twitter.com/ColeSouth/status/1550230795230781440
- GnarfGnarf 4y ago
  In 1968 Bolivia, the only way you could shower is with these heated heads, because there were no hot water tanks. 220v, with exposed connectors. So anyway I'm standing in the shower under one of these heads, feet in a puddle. I raise my arm to wash an armpit, and the back of my hand touches the bare connector. It tingled a bit.
  - rdl 4y ago
    Multiple people in the military in Iraq died in shower trailers on bases (2003-2008) due to improper wiring. I went into one where you could detect current in metal walls (not in the shower area, but an ungrounded piece of backsplash and shelving above sink...); I had someone stand in front of the door to keep people out and went over to the base electricians to yell at them.
    - lfowles 4y ago
      I remember one summer camp I went to as a kid where the showers were "spicy". Much in the same way a 9 volt battery feels on your tongue. In hindsight... what the hell???
      - rdl 4y ago
        Yeah -- especially given that skin itself isn't a great conductor, for it to feel like 9v on (even wet) skin vs. on your tongue, it's substantially more than a 9v battery...
  - darrylb42 4y ago
    I visited Costa Rica this year and this is what the rental house had. Bit freaky.
- mmastrac 4y ago
  I was curious and found this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/IHeat-2-5-kW-1-5-GPM-Electric-Shower-Head-Tankless-Water-Heater-AHSH2500/205602695 https://www.homedepot.com/p/IHeat-2-5-kW-1-5-GPM-Electric-Sh... Interesting comments on the reviews: > It worked for a few minutes before blowing the circuit breaker of gfci switch everytime. Good idea but pulls way too much power on an outlet to really be useful. Also you need to keep the water pressure very low, for it to actually warm up, if the pressure is too strong it won't warm it up quickly enough. > I'm confused on how to use this. The description mentions use for "Outdoor showers, Pool Side showers" and other outdoor examples, but the sticker on the unit specifically says INDOOR USE ONLY. The instructions say that you must locate the shower head a MINIMUM of 6 feet from the plug, but the cord is only 5 feet 10 inches. Plus, if the head is installed at the minimum height of 6 feet, that means the plug has to be 6 feet high too, since any angle would make it less than 6 feet away. There is no way to replace the cord, no way to hardwire it (as the instructions recommend, which is even more confusing), and you can't use an extension cord. More confusion arises on electrical requirements. It says to use 10 AWG minimum, but the cord is 12 AWG (which only supports 20A). It requires a 30A breaker, and it says it draws 23 amps - but the largest standard receptacle made only supports 20A (L5-20), and you'll only find a 20A breaker on an L5-20 circuit. Any 20A outlet you find will also only have 12 AWG wiring. Beyond all that, I tested it by connecting it outdoors to a 20A circuit. I set the flow rate to 0.75 GPM, and purged the air as per instructions. I started by taking power readings. There are 5 temperature settings; readings were, from Low to High: 9.5A, 13.5A, 16A, 18.5A and 20.3A. So at all settings except High, it was actually within the 20A breaker limit. Unfortunately, it always starts on High when you plug it in. I checked the water temperature with my hand when it was on High, and it was really hot - too hot for a shower, at least 110 F. Then I grabbed the thermometer to take readings, but something happened - I'm not sure what, but it basically broke. On High, it dropped to 90 degrees. My inlet temp was 75. It was still heating a little, but not like before. I adjusted flow to make sure the activation point was reached, but no success. Testing aside, I don't think this puts out enough heat to be effective even if it works as advertised. You would really want to use it when the water is very cold, which means you would need maximum heat, which means running it at 0.5 GPM. You're not going to get much shower at that rate.
  - bluGill 4y ago
NKosmatos 4y ago
- zibby8 4y ago
  What other use is there for male-to-male cables?
  - irrational 4y ago
    Beating people who make them?
  - petschge 4y ago
    The classic "I started with the wrong end when I put up the Christmas lights"?
    - eropple 4y ago
      Then re-string them, and remove all temptation.
      - petschge 4y ago
        That is of course the proper way to do it. But it is an application for a suicide cable that doesn't involve a generator.
    - nameless912 4y ago
      Then fix it. It's much better to take the L and fix your lights than burn your f*ing house down.
  - TOGoS 4y ago
    NEMA power inlets are weirdly expensive and therefore hard to come by. So if you want to have a wall-powered device with a detachable cord, using an outlet as an inlet and a male-to-male cord is a simple solution. (And yes, I'm aware of other solutions, like using IEC inlets, but it just feels a little wrong to use one of those on e.g. a power strip with NEMA outlets.)
jvolkman 4y ago
A.k.a suicide cables. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suicide_cable https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suicide_cable
- mmastrac 4y ago
  Lots more here, as well: https://twitter.com/cursedcables?lang=en https://twitter.com/cursedcables?lang=en AliExpress is filled with cursed connectors!
zibby8 4y ago
Back feeding seems insane. Most residential circuits are rated for 15A. A 5000 watt generator can produce over 40 amps at 120V. Seems like a good way to start an electrical fire.
- Havoc 4y ago
  Yep. There are some edge cases where it is convenient (eg trip all circuits except lighting) to ensure load is safe but kinda dicey that make random consumers understand and implement that
- stickfigure 4y ago
  Residential circuits are also protected by 15A breakers. You could generate a lot more than 40 amps of draw by shorting a (traditionally) energized circuit.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  There's not a big risk of overcurrent here, since the 15A breaker will trip on overcurrent even when it's being backfed. The main hazard with these suicide cables is of electrocution, both inside your house due to the exposed blades being energized, and of linemen working to restore the power.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Isn’t the usual advice to turn off your main breaker? Both to protect a lineworker and to avoid stalling your generator by trying to power up the neighbourhood?
    - transcriptase 4y ago
      I’m not sure I want to see the Venn diagram of people who would buy this cable, and people who would know they need to do that.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
Overtonwindow 4y ago
sizzzzlerz 4y ago
notacoward 4y ago
RL hardware stores are well aware of the problem, and often put up signs (especially around Christmas time) to discourage these shenanigans. Here's a nice collection. https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096 https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096
elzbardico 4y ago
How can folks not see that using such contraption is obviously a shitty idea? That’s why we need to completely overhaul the teaching of physics in middle and high school. Every citizen should have at least a basic understanding of basic physical concepts that allow then to understand why this kind of thing is a bad idea
- TheDudeMan 4y ago
  Probably because the alternative is to not have power during the (increasingly common) blackouts. I'm assuming that is the alternative due to there not being a proper way to accomplish this goal that does not cost thousands of dollars.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    There are reasonably priced (under $100, though not under $3 like a common receptacle) male power inlets. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-30-Amp-Power-Inlet-Box-PB30/202213702 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-30-Amp-Power-I... is the first one I found on Google (4-wire for 240V center-tapped), but there are many, including a 120V version: https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5278-CWP-Straight-Flanged-Receptacle/dp/B003ATXIBG/ref=sr_1_8 https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5278-CWP-Straight-Flanged-Rec... Even these, if hardwired to the building's service, represent some risk, but the risk is to the people poking fingers into the box, which could reasonably have a locking cover on it. If that male inlet is powered only via a transfer switch or a back-fed breaker that's normally off, the risk is much, much lower than a double-male cord.
    - hedora 4y ago
      Unless it is installed properly, that is just as dangerous as the cord in the article, as long as you remember the "plug generator in last" rule. In particular, both can kill hapless power company employees by unexpectedly backfeeding into downed parts of the grid, and they have similar carbon monoxide/fire hazard issues. (Not that there is anything wrong with the product; I wish they were mandatory, so they'd reliably be inspected after installation!)
criddell 4y ago
I kind of hate that the notice points to a safety code (NFPA 70 in this case) but in order to see it, you have create an account in order to read it. If you want a copy of the code, you have to pay.
- tyingq 4y ago
  Not sure how it works, but there is a "Free Access" button here...leads to a registration form. https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70 https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-stand...
- sokoloff 4y ago
  There is free-to-read-online access to the code. You need to pay to download or get a printed copy, but the code is free (as in beer) to read.
- notRobot 4y ago
  Google brings up a few PDFs, dunno if they're the correct ones: https://www.google.com/search?q=NFPA%2070%20filetype%3Apdf https://www.google.com/search?q=NFPA%2070%20filetype%3Apdf
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Old_Thrashbarg 4y ago
  UpCodes cofounder here, couldn't agree more. We're fighting the Law Publishers for free, ungated access to the law. They think they own the laws, it's insane. Previous Hacker News thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19617073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19617073 We host a lot of laws based on the NFPA 70 BTW (see https://up.codes/codes/general https://up.codes/codes/general). We take a ton of heat for hosting the law, it's messed up.
  - massysett 4y ago
    I think your beef here is with legislatures, not publishers like NFPA. It takes a lot of work to write and maintain these codes. NFPA, a private organization, gets money to do this by charging for the code. Maybe legislatures should be paying NFPA to develop these things, rather than paying nothing for them and leaving NFPA to figure out a way to fund them. Then legislatures could buy a license for them, or demand that they be put into the public domain. But it's not fair to blame NFPA for charging for these things after they fronted the significant effort to develop them.
14 4y ago
When I read the article and it said they sell for $40-$72 my jaw dropped. You could make one of these for under $10 pretty easily. Hell if you were resourceful you could make it for free by finding someone giving away a couple plug in appliances for free and cut the cord and make it. Also I believe these cords are also sold for christmas lights if you hang them the wrong way but if used with a generator I believe there is risk you send power to the pole outside your house which is extremely dangerous if a linemen is working on said pole with the belief that the power is dead.
- lfowles 4y ago
  Rehang your christmas lights...
  - 14 4y ago
    Of course but for many the solution is a cheap cord or hours of work taking down and rehanging lights. Many will opt for the cheap time saving solution.
- h2odragon 4y ago
  the suicide cord is one of those things that you make when you need it. The thing is supposed to look sketchy because it is sketchy. Like big ugly ball of duct tape sketchy. when you correct the error that required the cord in the first place, you disassemble the suicide cord as penance for having created such a thing, and to ensure that it doesn't find its way into use somewhere else.
- toast0 4y ago
  Christmas lights usually aren't grounded like the cable shown. I'm sure there are two prong suicide cables too, though.
  - 14 4y ago
    You can still plug a 2 prong cord into a grounded cord.
kevinmchugh 4y ago
There's a wonderful kind of writing that pops up at hardware stores in response to annual searches for suicide cables. A couple examples here https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096 https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096 THESE ARE NOT MADE THEY SHOULD NEVER BE MADE has the kind of direct clarity of existential risk that they sought for with "This is not a place of honor. Nothing of value is here."
- TIPSIO 4y ago
  Really interesting... What are people doing with their lights where this would ever come up though? Edit: From reddit, a use case is found [1]: > They’re actually used my law enforcement whenever they do a raid and seize a computer. If they turn the computer off, they’ll have to try and get past a password. And if the hard drive is encrypted, they’re basically SOL. > This can be a real issue for things like drug dealers or CP busts, where they need to transport the computer for analysis, but can’t turn it off. So they roll in a specially designed power bank, plug it into the computer’s power strip, then unplug the power strip from the wall. The power bank keeps the strip hot while they transport it. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/am6308/one_of_my_clients_asked_for_one_of_these_dont_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/am6308/one_of_my...
  - breakingcups 4y ago
    If they're specially designed, they should have a specialized cable..
  - jvolkman 4y ago
    Hung two strands of holiday lights in opposite directions.
  - MBCook 4y ago
    You hang up two strings of lights outside your house. Usually each string plugs into the previous string and it all works. But if you get one string backwards instead of having a male and female connector to hook them together you have two males or two females. Taking down and putting up a long string of lights again is a huge hassle. But if you could just buy this one little cable…
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
AverageSavage 4y ago
rtkwe 4y ago
My grandma fried a printer/laptop once accidentally doing an unintentional version of this. The printer and laptop were plugged into different circuits and there was a big enough voltage difference if fried one of them.
- CodeWriter23 4y ago
  Likely due to neutral not being tied to a cold water pipe.
  - aequitas 4y ago
    In my country (NL) it is advised against that (though it used to be common practice), since a bit of water pipe running from your house might have been replaced with a plastic one and the metal bit still sticking out into your house might not have the proper ground resistance to function as a proper earth wire.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      The US used to allow metal pipes to be counted as a ground connection, but not anyway. The US requires metal pipes be connected to ground, but that is not the same as the neutral to ground connection.
    - CodeWriter23 4y ago
      Look down and see if the metal pipe is going into the ground? At least in cases where the different services enter the premise in close proximity.
      - aequitas 4y ago
        Metal touching the ground does not guarantee a proper earth. The resistance might be to high to function properly under all circumstances a ground is needed.
dlandis 4y ago
I'm curious why is this warning only being issued now? Until now they haven't issued any warnings about this type of product?
- wil421 4y ago
  You can’t find these in brick and mortar stores for this reason. It is possible to make your own or buy them off Amazon.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  Because it was up on Amazon. You can't possibly issue warnings about every potentially dangerous product that may be sold.
- mrweasel 4y ago
  And why a warning? Why not tell Amazon to remove the items. I feel like most countries have a regulatory authority that has rules banning dangerous product like this.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    This is that authority. The purpose of the warning is for people who have already purchased it. And because the CPSC is likely aware that Amazon Marketplace listings are akin to playing whack-a-mole with overseas drop shippers.
    - mrweasel 4y ago
      Okay, that makes more sense. Still a little weird that they can request that Amazon remove these items or face fines, regardless of it being a drop shipper.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        The CPSC has the authority to prohibit unsafe items from being offered for sale, regardless of who actually puts it in the mail.
angrygoat 4y ago
I've been shocked by one of these – I was setting up some computers, asked for an extension cord, got handed a male-to-male cord. Didn't notice until I plugged one end in, and grabbed the other while fishing around for it while looking. It never occurred to me that it might be male on both ends. The shock was very painful but the RCD tripped and saved my life. I'm quite grateful to the regulators here in Australia that made them mandatory back int he 90s.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  Interesting. I’ve never tried it out, but I assumed that an RCD / GFCI would trip more or less instantaneously. I’m kind of surprised you felt much of anything.
  - TD-Linux 4y ago
    They still mechanically open the circuit breaker, which takes time.
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    > To reduce the risk of electrocution, RCDs should operate within 25–40 milliseconds Now divide 1000ms to 50Hz.
    - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      20 millisecond-seconds.
      - justsomehnguy 4y ago
        Or 16.6 for 60Hz networks. Do you remember what it's sine wave when you on AC? You will be applied to the current for up to 2-2.5 cycles, so it's up to amount of current what you will get. @londons_explore pretty summed it up and gave a link to a very good graph.
  - kube-system 4y ago
hedora 4y ago
Honestly, they should just mandate a 240V generator port (with a grid cutoff interlock!) on main service boxes moving forward. Ideally, there would be some different standard connector so that the port would only work with inverter-style generators that have constant frequency / voltage as load shifts around. Otherwise, people would end up frying appliance computets with cheap generators. Of course, this would lead to an identical headline, but the body of the article would warn about extreme equipment damage, not imminent death. I have to admit I am kind of curious to know what these 110V cords do in practice. Are half the outlets on the other side of the 220 pair?
- xani_ 4y ago
  Most people would complain as they don't plan on using generator and extra socket and switch is extra cost. People needing that cable are just being cheap and not wanting to do it properly
  - hedora 4y ago
    It's $100-200 in extra parts. California already forces people to spend $1000's on LED compatible dimmers and moisture / motion sensing switches (spoiler alert: none of these things work properly, and they all have a high first year failure rate). They also have fascination with putting power outlets in useless places.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      California has a lot of electrical requirements that other states don't have... like battery backups on garage door openers.
      - hedora 4y ago
        Wow. I guess the anti-entrapment pull cord isn't enough? I wonder if you can you put in a wheelchair accessible egress door instead.
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
I bought one of these on Amazon last year for a specific use case, and I’m knowledgeable enough to use it safely. IIRC Amazon pulled the listing a few months later and gave me a refund because it’s obviously a dangerous product.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  Can’t edit my comment, but I found the email from Amazon: The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission has provided us information that indicates that the product listed above may present a substantial product hazard. Specifically, the extension cords may pose a potential shock and electrocution risk to customers. If you still have this product, we urge you to stop using it immediately and dispose of the product. If you purchased this item for someone else, please notify the recipient immediately. There is no need for you to return the product. Refunds will be issued to the original payment method used for the purchase, or if the original payment method is no longer available, we will apply an Amazon Gift Card to your account. The safety and satisfaction of our customers is our highest priority. We regret any inconvenience this may cause you.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  This is not an argument I like to use, but I'd say that if you were knowledgeable enough, then you wouldn't be using it.
  - quickthrowman 4y ago
    I agree, if they were knowledgeable enough they would convert the load side of whatever they were trying to power from a female plug end to a male plug and use a traditional extension cord and not risk death.
  - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
    It was a temporary solution until I had time to build things out the right way, which I am now in the process of doing.
- vel0city 4y ago
Lichtso 4y ago
All these cable stories always make me wonder: Is it possible to design a safe gender-less power plug? By that I mean one that has no male and female end but two symmetrical ones. That would not only be safer but also more convenient as there would only be one type of such cable, instead of three: (female-male, female-female, male-male).
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  There is the Anderson connector for DC applications. The concept could be extended with a center ground contact and retractable shields.
- mrweasel 4y ago
  I suppose yes. I can certainly imaging a few designs, but they would all be more expensive. Most of our electrical infrastructure is old, like really old. Modern LED light bulbs screw into a socket that over 100 years old. We run 240V to electronics that immediately transform it down to 48/24/12 or even 5V, so why even run 240V to anything beyond maybe a handful of places in an average home? It's not like you can get hurt or killed with lower voltages, but overall it would be safer.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    > why even run 240V to anything beyond maybe a handful of places in an average home? While I might end up only wanting 48/24/12/5V for a number of things in my home, I may still want a good number of total watts in a room. Sure, most of the components on my desktop are running off 12/5/3.3V, but its spreading that out across a lot of wires. It would have to be a pretty beefy cable to send 500W at 12V to my desktop, that's ~42A of current! Compared to delivering it as 120V at the wall, where that 500W is then only 4.2A, which does not need nearly as beefy of wire. And even then, that's just the desktop. We still have another 100W of monitors, probably another 15W of lighting, my phone charger will use 20W, a ham radio that can do 200W. I'm going to need some really beefy wires to handle the same 1800W like what I currently have in each room of my house.
- gpm 4y ago
hajile 4y ago
It's not mentioned, but this is DEADLY for innocent linemen too. They check the line before working and it's dead. They start work and some idiot without a proper transfer switch backfeeds through the transformer hitting them with 14k volts.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  How often does this actually happen? I would hope that almost anyone using one of these have the sense to turn off their main breaker.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    The kind of people this safety advisory is for don't know what a breaker even is.
  - dave78 4y ago
    If not enforced mechanically, it's really easy to forget though. The last time I needed to power my house with a generator, it was because the power went out during a horrendous thunderstorm at 3am. We have a sump pit with a battery-powered backup, but when I checked on it right after the power went out I discovered the backup couldn't keep up with the volume of water coming in (it had been raining for hours already, and we ended up getting over 6" of rain that night). I had less than 10 minutes from being awoken at 3am to having to have the generator up and running to prevent our basement from getting flooded. And of course, we had nothing but flashlights and there was a thunderstorm raging outside (where I obviously needed to set up the generator). It would have been way, way too easy to forget one the many critical steps (and critical order of steps) in that scenario to use a suicide cord safely.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      A battery powered transfer pump may be worthwhile as another backup. Had your generator decided not to start you’d be sunk.
  - bluGill 4y ago
gwbas1c 4y ago
Plugging things in that SHOULD NOT be plugged in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L08LjkN1k70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L08LjkN1k70 In the video, the guy made once of those cords and uses it to electrocute all different kinds of things.
- xani_ 4y ago
  ElectroBOOM made his whole career on videos like that. Still can't watch him, I get anxious
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    Really? I mean, it's all staged/planned. In his earlier videos, like the electric guitar one, even the spark is fake and edited in.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Most of it is fake or calculated (taking real shocks he knows are safe.) Sometimes it's real though, he nearly got himself killed when a Jacob's Ladder fell on his lap. That was real, unintentional, and extremely dangerous.
    - xani_ 4y ago
      I know he's a skilled EE and minimalizes chance for that but still, accidents happen and I'm also not exactly fan of essentially masochism on screen
drunkonvinyl 4y ago
Oooh. A giant, well-insulated paper clip!
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
Ah. Ye olde widowmaker cables.
londons_explore 4y ago
Thought experiment: Could you make one of these wires that is safe? I think you'd have to start with human rated GFCI... Current GFCI systems aren't human rated (ie. they might fail, and should only be used as a secondary safety feature, not the primary way to stop the user touching the electricity).
- dave78 4y ago
  I don't think so. There are failure modes that GFCI wouldn't catch. For instance, if you managed to grab both the hot and neutral prongs at the same time of the live end of your hypothetical GFCI-protected cord, it may not trip since the current would be passing through you but still returning on the neutral (maybe there'd be enough leakage to ground through your feet/shoes to trip it anyway, but I certainly wouldn't rely on that).
- bluGill 4y ago
  No GFCI needed to create this. Start with a plastic cover for the end so that you can't touch the plug when it is not plugged in. Next design an an outlet that retracts the cover above only when the main breaker is turned off. (this implies the outlet is built into your circuit box)
hedora 4y ago
The correct solution here is for the courts to treat Amazon like a retailer. If your local hardware store sells you one of these, then they (assuming the manufacturer cannot be found) assume liability for whatever damage it does.
- donmcronald 4y ago
  Exactly. You order it from Amazon, you pay Amazon, it's shipped in an Amazon box, and arrives on an Amazon truck, but they aren't liable for anything because you didn't buy it from Amazon.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    Amazon gets away with so much it’s not even funny. What a joke.
- varispeed 4y ago
  ToO bIg toO fAiL As politicians would say, Amazon is too big and if we had to close it down, there would be too many job losses, that would be a political suicide. In my opinion that is one of the problems of late stage capitalism - corporations are allowed to grow out of control like cancer.
  - freedude 4y ago
    It is not capitalism then. It is a bastardized state sponsored social-fascism. The Society that owns it is small and not benefiting the entire population but it is still state sponsored and state encouraged.
alistairSH 4y ago
Wow. I didn't think these were a thing. Because it's such a terrible idea. Wow. Hanging Christmas lights isn't that hard. Lay'em out, attach them to each other, plug into wall to test, then and only then hang them. Kind of like the old measure twice, cut once for woodworking. And the generator usage. WTF? Who buys a $1000+ generator and then half-assess the installation? (rhetorical question) Power inlets aren't particularly expensive (relative to the cost of the generator, or burning down the house, or death).
- kube-system 4y ago
  > Who buys a $1000+ generator and then half-assess the installation? People who buy a generator after they lose power. They will want to begin use of it immediately, rather than scheduling an electrician for next month.
- dave78 4y ago
  > Power inlets aren't particularly expensive (relative to the cost of the generator, or burning down the house, or death). Most portable generators that people would buy to power their house during an outage are in the $500-$800 range (e.g. https://www.harborfreight.com/generators-engines/generators/4375-watt-gas-powered-portable-generator-with-co-secure-technology-epa-iii-59207.html https://www.harborfreight.com/generators-engines/generators/...). In another post I noted the costs, but proper installation of a generator inlet at my house, done DIY but to code with a permit and inspection, would cost me $480 just in parts. For the vast majority of people, this is not a DIY job as it involves opening the main panel, so for most they will need an electrician. So, I'd argue that a proper power inlet is actually quite expensive, roughly equal to the cost of a low-end generator (the type most people are going to be buying for an occasional outage situation). Though I certainly agree with the last part ("relative to the cost of...burning down the house or death").
- bombcar 4y ago
  I bet you could spend some time and find any number of people who have bought $80k electric cars and half-assed the charger installation.
flyinghamster 4y ago
I've heard of these referred to as "Jesus cords," as in you're going to meet Him soon if you mishandle it. But really, if you're going to hook your house up to a generator, you should have a proper transfer switch installed. You don't want to risk energizing the neighborhood distribution lines by feeding power into them. Those transformers work both ways.
- andrew_ 4y ago
  An interlock kit and appropriate aux plug box is also legal and code in many places. An expensive transfer switch is not required.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  How is your poxy little 3 kVA portable genny going to power the local network without tripping its own breaker?
  - everforward 4y ago
    It genuinely does happen. I can't find a summary of how often, but if you Google "lineman electrocuted back-fed generator" you can see a bunch of cases. It's not enough power for everyone in the neighborhood to have power, but it's enough that the lines have thousands of volts in them when the utility company thinks they're dead. The amps are low, but enough to be lethal.
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      Surely the lineman should have isolated the line before working on it. But of course the person connecting the generator is very much at fault for not isolating their house from the network.
    - fallingfrog 4y ago
      Yep, 50 to 100 milliamperes can kill, all you need is enough voltage to overcome the resistance of human skin, which is 1 million ohms when dry and a few tens of kohms when wet.
lbarrow 4y ago
Does CPSC not have the authority to fine Amazon or otherwise get them to stop selling these things? That seems like it would be much more effective than a post on a website.
daveoc64 4y ago
The way Christmas Lights are wired in the US is very different to the UK. They usually come pre-wired with a standard 3-pin plug in the end, or a transformer block with a propreitary connector (probably outputting DC), so you don't have to worry about any of this extension stuff.
deleted 4y ago
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blaze33 4y ago
Back in 1999 we had a huge storm that cut the power for millions of people across the country. Our home was not spared as a tree fell on its power line. The power company was completely overwhelmed by the scale of the damages plus it somehow forgot about us so that it took more than a month to get the cable repaired. Luckily our neighbor still had the electricity running so I made a short male-to-male cord to connect a normal extension cord between our two houses. I knew what I was doing but I was definitely not comfortable with such a solution! I had no idea you could actually buy such cords, I thought it would obviously be outlawed considering you can easily kill yourself if you're not careful... iirc I destroyed the cord as soon as it had served its purpose because it's a really bad idea to have such a thing at home!
jaredandrews 4y ago
I am reading this story about 6 hours after it was posted here. Immediately after reading I went to amazon.com and search "male to male e" at which point I was provided several autocompletes: - male to male extension cord 3 prong - male to male extension cord adapter - male to male extension cord 10 ft - male to male extension cord black and so on. BUT when I actually completed the search ("male to male extension cord 3 prong", the first autocomplete for me), I did not get any actual "suicide cords" in the results. Thus I am forced to conclude that Amazon reacted in real time to this story. Curious if people in other areas are seeing the same thing?
meowfly 4y ago
1. This is a great PSA. I would absolutely buy this kind of cable not realizing it's dangerous. 2. What is wrong with our regulatory bodies that there hasn't been heat turned up on these marketplaces? Imagine going to CVS and searching for OTC ADHD supplements and getting results for research chemicals from XYZChems in Cambodia. I might buy them assuming that CVS would be more responsible than that. Maybe someone can explain to me why my analogy doesn't track.
anonymousiam 4y ago
I bought one of these from Amazon last year and I've received two warning emails from Amazon, along with a refund. My use case is connecting a portable generator to my house. It's all completely safe if you know what you are doing. You turn off the main breaker (between the meter and the AC mains connection), then you plug one end of the "suicide cable" into some outlet, and the other end into the generator output. Another related use case is to connect the two different phases together so the generator can power the whole house instead of half the house. For that you need two of these.
fallingfrog 4y ago
Pfft, you can just cut the male ends off a couple old extension cords and twist the wires together, then wrap it in duct tape. Just don’t reverse the hot and neutral. /s

I recall a holocaust among hand crafted toys, a few years ago: They were enforcing "materiel origin" labeling or something and you couldn't sell home made toys without a lot of paperwork to certify they were lead free. Amazon is too big for laws to apply, and its umbrella apparently covers foreign sellers on its platform. Another fun toy they sell is the "heated shower heads", a tankless water heater element integrated with a shower head, and usually provided with a standard electrical cord. The safety of these items is obviously good enough that we don't have multiple stories of electrocutions from them, but it doesn't seem right that Amazon can sell these to people where Lowes and other hardware stores cannot.

mmastrac 4y ago
At some point they just became too big for government to manage compliance with existing laws - that should have a sign that it was time to start looking at breaking them up. I cannot believe the volume of crap I'm getting from Amazon. The quality of products has nose-dived and I no longer trust them for purchasing easily-counterfeited items (like SD cards).
- fullstop 4y ago
  That, and the brands are clearly from a Chinese Name Generator, so you end up with Rabbitgoo branded products. Once those start to fail or enough people leave bad reviews the company disappears and pops up again as Luckyfang. It's whack-a-mole, and untrustworthy. If I wanted those products I'd shop aliexpress.
  - mmastrac 4y ago
    Ah yes, the Ali* name generator machine. If all I can find are Rabbitgoo/Luckyfang products on Amazon, I just skip the middleman and order from AliExpress. I don't even trust the middlemen to stand behind the products these days. Most of the time they just relabel it with a more western name and don't add any sort of QA -- just drop-shipping.
  - geocrasher 4y ago
    This is my sentiment, too. I tried to shop for $20-30 dress shirts in 6XLT, and it was a hot mess of availability and off brands. No thanks. Spent $70 at a local store instead.
abracadaniel 4y ago
Funny how quickly the sales tax loophole was fixed, since it directly affected legislatures, but bypassing consumer protection laws at massive scales gets ignored.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Once Amazon went national and retail is already on life support, the sales tax loophole didn’t have much protection. It just made it easier for smaller competitors to take some of their business. Especially nowadays when eBay even collects sales taxes on sales into states (even sales from me as a Canadian).
zibby8 4y ago
Are you sure that Lowes can't sell heated shower heads? Maybe they choose not to sell them for liability reasons.
- ABeeSea 4y ago
  Or demand reasons. If Amazon only sells a couple dozen a year, they just need to keep a few in a single warehouse at all times whereas lowes would need to keep it in stock in a minimum number of stores that is greater than 1.
  - ridgered4 4y ago
    My experience with Lowes has been they "carry" many items that can actually only be shipped to you or the store after being purchased online.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  Don't pretend that "liability reasons" is due to ethical concerns about the safety of the product. Someone would buy it off a shelf at Lowes, would take Lowes to court, and Lowes would lose. It wouldn't be profitable. Conversely, if someone bought a dodgy product from a drop-shipper listing on Amazon and got hurt by it, do you think that Amazon would be successfully sued? Empirically, that happens but they're still profitable and and still not refusing to list products for safety except in the most egregious circumstances. Would you sue the drop-shipper? They'd probably disappear or have zero assets. Would you sue the overseas manufacturer? Good luck with that! The fact that it's profitable for Amazon and not for Lowes is exactly what the parent meant when they said "...it doesn't seem right that Amazon can sell these to people where Lowes and other hardware stores cannot."
  - culturestate 4y ago
    > Don't pretend that "liability reasons" is due to ethical concerns about the safety of the product. Someone would buy it off a shelf at Lowes, would take Lowes to court, and Lowes would lose. Is this not exactly what “liability reasons” implies? Surely if it was an ethical argument they would’ve written “ethical reasons” instead.
tyingq 4y ago
There's a terrifying teardown of one of those heated shower heads here: https://hackaday.com/2018/08/25/electric-shower-head-tear-down-makes-us-wince/ https://hackaday.com/2018/08/25/electric-shower-head-tear-do... When he opens it, the ground wire is just floating in the enclosure, not hooked up to anything. Contacts that would mechanically fail to shorted, etc. He also mentions it flows ~24 amps of 220V on the high setting.
- mmastrac 4y ago
  > The green wire which is a neutral has no place to fasten inside the plastic body. It just goes inside, connects to nothing, while being exposed in the path of the water, presumably to keep water that was too conductive from shocking you I have nothing to say to this. Wow.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Maybe I’m dumb but what else would the ground on a completely plastic enclosure be connected to?
    - tyingq 4y ago
      The ground wire is floating in an area that would have water in it, sometimes being electrically connected to the water, sometimes not, depending on the flow, how the wire is bent, etc. He measures leaking voltage to the pipe and the water and gets readings. There are actual safe inline electric water heaters with inbuilt GFCI, proper grounding, probably other protective circuits, etc.
- Shorel 4y ago
  I used them for over 20 years in South America. I even burned them many times, to the dismay of my dad. I burned them because I wanted hotter water, and closed the water line as much as I can, the resistance heated up to red and then melted. The fact that ground contacts the water is by design. As far as I know, no one has ever been electrocuted by using one of these showers, not even me, so used to burn them. The only reason I use gas heaters now is: I can shower with hot enough water for a long time. So that teardown can be terrifying to you, but millions of South Americans pay no attention to such fear mongering at all. They are safe for people.
ridgered4 4y ago
IIRC that lead law was spawned in response to Mattel selling lead painted toys and Mattel was made exempt!
stefan_ 4y ago
Amazon is the magic law blanket. They take the payment, they store the goods, they ship the wares.. but it's WAGANFU brand that they have no serviceable address for that is responsible?
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Gotta love limited liability! I believe American Express was one of the last public companies to convert from unlimited liability to limited.
  - morpheuskafka 4y ago
    That's not what limited liability means. It's about the owners/investors/shareholders of the company not being personally liable for debts (court judgements or loan payments) in excess of the company's assets. Without it, simply holding stock in a company could theoretically expose someone to unlimited losses if the company had more liabilities than assets for whatever reason. A history of the application of limited liability to corporations: https://www.bus.umich.edu/KresgeLibrary/resources/abla/abld_4.1.11-33.pdf https://www.bus.umich.edu/KresgeLibrary/resources/abla/abld_.... The term "limited liability company" was created much more recently to as a sort of corporation-lite entity that had this essential attribute without all the other corporate formalities. The tax laws decided to treat LLCs as non-corporations unless the elected otherwise, removing one of the major costs of having the liability protection. Partnerships, the default/unorganized form of joint business ventures, do not have liability protection. Later, limited partnerships were created that did, but limited partners could not participate in everyday business. Thus, the corporation and later LLC were the only forms that allowed managing investors to protect themselves from excess business liability. This has nothing to do with whether or not Amazon is liable for products third parties sell on their site.
cyral 4y ago
And of course the "brands" selling these products are under random names like SFHBEE that will disappear overnight. No accountability if anything goes wrong. This is a good thread on it: https://twitter.com/ColeSouth/status/1550230795230781440 https://twitter.com/ColeSouth/status/1550230795230781440
GnarfGnarf 4y ago
In 1968 Bolivia, the only way you could shower is with these heated heads, because there were no hot water tanks. 220v, with exposed connectors. So anyway I'm standing in the shower under one of these heads, feet in a puddle. I raise my arm to wash an armpit, and the back of my hand touches the bare connector. It tingled a bit.
- rdl 4y ago
  Multiple people in the military in Iraq died in shower trailers on bases (2003-2008) due to improper wiring. I went into one where you could detect current in metal walls (not in the shower area, but an ungrounded piece of backsplash and shelving above sink...); I had someone stand in front of the door to keep people out and went over to the base electricians to yell at them.
  - lfowles 4y ago
    I remember one summer camp I went to as a kid where the showers were "spicy". Much in the same way a 9 volt battery feels on your tongue. In hindsight... what the hell???
    - rdl 4y ago
      Yeah -- especially given that skin itself isn't a great conductor, for it to feel like 9v on (even wet) skin vs. on your tongue, it's substantially more than a 9v battery...
- darrylb42 4y ago
  I visited Costa Rica this year and this is what the rental house had. Bit freaky.
mmastrac 4y ago
I was curious and found this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/IHeat-2-5-kW-1-5-GPM-Electric-Shower-Head-Tankless-Water-Heater-AHSH2500/205602695 https://www.homedepot.com/p/IHeat-2-5-kW-1-5-GPM-Electric-Sh... Interesting comments on the reviews: > It worked for a few minutes before blowing the circuit breaker of gfci switch everytime. Good idea but pulls way too much power on an outlet to really be useful. Also you need to keep the water pressure very low, for it to actually warm up, if the pressure is too strong it won't warm it up quickly enough. > I'm confused on how to use this. The description mentions use for "Outdoor showers, Pool Side showers" and other outdoor examples, but the sticker on the unit specifically says INDOOR USE ONLY. The instructions say that you must locate the shower head a MINIMUM of 6 feet from the plug, but the cord is only 5 feet 10 inches. Plus, if the head is installed at the minimum height of 6 feet, that means the plug has to be 6 feet high too, since any angle would make it less than 6 feet away. There is no way to replace the cord, no way to hardwire it (as the instructions recommend, which is even more confusing), and you can't use an extension cord. More confusion arises on electrical requirements. It says to use 10 AWG minimum, but the cord is 12 AWG (which only supports 20A). It requires a 30A breaker, and it says it draws 23 amps - but the largest standard receptacle made only supports 20A (L5-20), and you'll only find a 20A breaker on an L5-20 circuit. Any 20A outlet you find will also only have 12 AWG wiring. Beyond all that, I tested it by connecting it outdoors to a 20A circuit. I set the flow rate to 0.75 GPM, and purged the air as per instructions. I started by taking power readings. There are 5 temperature settings; readings were, from Low to High: 9.5A, 13.5A, 16A, 18.5A and 20.3A. So at all settings except High, it was actually within the 20A breaker limit. Unfortunately, it always starts on High when you plug it in. I checked the water temperature with my hand when it was on High, and it was really hot - too hot for a shower, at least 110 F. Then I grabbed the thermometer to take readings, but something happened - I'm not sure what, but it basically broke. On High, it dropped to 90 degrees. My inlet temp was 75. It was still heating a little, but not like before. I adjusted flow to make sure the activation point was reached, but no success. Testing aside, I don't think this puts out enough heat to be effective even if it works as advertised. You would really want to use it when the water is very cold, which means you would need maximum heat, which means running it at 0.5 GPM. You're not going to get much shower at that rate.
- bluGill 4y ago

NKosmatos 4y ago

zibby8 4y ago
What other use is there for male-to-male cables?
- irrational 4y ago
  Beating people who make them?
- petschge 4y ago
  The classic "I started with the wrong end when I put up the Christmas lights"?
  - eropple 4y ago
    Then re-string them, and remove all temptation.
    - petschge 4y ago
      That is of course the proper way to do it. But it is an application for a suicide cable that doesn't involve a generator.
  - nameless912 4y ago
    Then fix it. It's much better to take the L and fix your lights than burn your f*ing house down.
- TOGoS 4y ago
  NEMA power inlets are weirdly expensive and therefore hard to come by. So if you want to have a wall-powered device with a detachable cord, using an outlet as an inlet and a male-to-male cord is a simple solution. (And yes, I'm aware of other solutions, like using IEC inlets, but it just feels a little wrong to use one of those on e.g. a power strip with NEMA outlets.)

jvolkman 4y ago

A.k.a suicide cables. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suicide_cable https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suicide_cable

mmastrac 4y ago
Lots more here, as well: https://twitter.com/cursedcables?lang=en https://twitter.com/cursedcables?lang=en AliExpress is filled with cursed connectors!

zibby8 4y ago

Back feeding seems insane. Most residential circuits are rated for 15A. A 5000 watt generator can produce over 40 amps at 120V. Seems like a good way to start an electrical fire.

Havoc 4y ago
Yep. There are some edge cases where it is convenient (eg trip all circuits except lighting) to ensure load is safe but kinda dicey that make random consumers understand and implement that
stickfigure 4y ago
Residential circuits are also protected by 15A breakers. You could generate a lot more than 40 amps of draw by shorting a (traditionally) energized circuit.
josephcsible 4y ago
There's not a big risk of overcurrent here, since the 15A breaker will trip on overcurrent even when it's being backfed. The main hazard with these suicide cables is of electrocution, both inside your house due to the exposed blades being energized, and of linemen working to restore the power.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Isn’t the usual advice to turn off your main breaker? Both to protect a lineworker and to avoid stalling your generator by trying to power up the neighbourhood?
  - transcriptase 4y ago
    I’m not sure I want to see the Venn diagram of people who would buy this cable, and people who would know they need to do that.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

Overtonwindow 4y ago

sizzzzlerz 4y ago

notacoward 4y ago

RL hardware stores are well aware of the problem, and often put up signs (especially around Christmas time) to discourage these shenanigans. Here's a nice collection. https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096 https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096

elzbardico 4y ago

How can folks not see that using such contraption is obviously a shitty idea? That’s why we need to completely overhaul the teaching of physics in middle and high school. Every citizen should have at least a basic understanding of basic physical concepts that allow then to understand why this kind of thing is a bad idea

TheDudeMan 4y ago
Probably because the alternative is to not have power during the (increasingly common) blackouts. I'm assuming that is the alternative due to there not being a proper way to accomplish this goal that does not cost thousands of dollars.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  There are reasonably priced (under $100, though not under $3 like a common receptacle) male power inlets. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-30-Amp-Power-Inlet-Box-PB30/202213702 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-30-Amp-Power-I... is the first one I found on Google (4-wire for 240V center-tapped), but there are many, including a 120V version: https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5278-CWP-Straight-Flanged-Receptacle/dp/B003ATXIBG/ref=sr_1_8 https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5278-CWP-Straight-Flanged-Rec... Even these, if hardwired to the building's service, represent some risk, but the risk is to the people poking fingers into the box, which could reasonably have a locking cover on it. If that male inlet is powered only via a transfer switch or a back-fed breaker that's normally off, the risk is much, much lower than a double-male cord.
  - hedora 4y ago
    Unless it is installed properly, that is just as dangerous as the cord in the article, as long as you remember the "plug generator in last" rule. In particular, both can kill hapless power company employees by unexpectedly backfeeding into downed parts of the grid, and they have similar carbon monoxide/fire hazard issues. (Not that there is anything wrong with the product; I wish they were mandatory, so they'd reliably be inspected after installation!)

criddell 4y ago

I kind of hate that the notice points to a safety code (NFPA 70 in this case) but in order to see it, you have create an account in order to read it. If you want a copy of the code, you have to pay.

tyingq 4y ago
Not sure how it works, but there is a "Free Access" button here...leads to a registration form. https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70 https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-stand...
sokoloff 4y ago
There is free-to-read-online access to the code. You need to pay to download or get a printed copy, but the code is free (as in beer) to read.
notRobot 4y ago
Google brings up a few PDFs, dunno if they're the correct ones: https://www.google.com/search?q=NFPA%2070%20filetype%3Apdf https://www.google.com/search?q=NFPA%2070%20filetype%3Apdf
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Old_Thrashbarg 4y ago
UpCodes cofounder here, couldn't agree more. We're fighting the Law Publishers for free, ungated access to the law. They think they own the laws, it's insane. Previous Hacker News thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19617073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19617073 We host a lot of laws based on the NFPA 70 BTW (see https://up.codes/codes/general https://up.codes/codes/general). We take a ton of heat for hosting the law, it's messed up.
- massysett 4y ago
  I think your beef here is with legislatures, not publishers like NFPA. It takes a lot of work to write and maintain these codes. NFPA, a private organization, gets money to do this by charging for the code. Maybe legislatures should be paying NFPA to develop these things, rather than paying nothing for them and leaving NFPA to figure out a way to fund them. Then legislatures could buy a license for them, or demand that they be put into the public domain. But it's not fair to blame NFPA for charging for these things after they fronted the significant effort to develop them.

14 4y ago

When I read the article and it said they sell for $40-$72 my jaw dropped. You could make one of these for under $10 pretty easily. Hell if you were resourceful you could make it for free by finding someone giving away a couple plug in appliances for free and cut the cord and make it. Also I believe these cords are also sold for christmas lights if you hang them the wrong way but if used with a generator I believe there is risk you send power to the pole outside your house which is extremely dangerous if a linemen is working on said pole with the belief that the power is dead.

lfowles 4y ago
Rehang your christmas lights...
- 14 4y ago
  Of course but for many the solution is a cheap cord or hours of work taking down and rehanging lights. Many will opt for the cheap time saving solution.
h2odragon 4y ago
the suicide cord is one of those things that you make when you need it. The thing is supposed to look sketchy because it is sketchy. Like big ugly ball of duct tape sketchy. when you correct the error that required the cord in the first place, you disassemble the suicide cord as penance for having created such a thing, and to ensure that it doesn't find its way into use somewhere else.
toast0 4y ago
Christmas lights usually aren't grounded like the cable shown. I'm sure there are two prong suicide cables too, though.
- 14 4y ago
  You can still plug a 2 prong cord into a grounded cord.

kevinmchugh 4y ago

There's a wonderful kind of writing that pops up at hardware stores in response to annual searches for suicide cables. A couple examples here https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096 https://twitter.com/kobunheat/status/1336134415336964096 THESE ARE NOT MADE THEY SHOULD NEVER BE MADE has the kind of direct clarity of existential risk that they sought for with "This is not a place of honor. Nothing of value is here."

TIPSIO 4y ago
Really interesting... What are people doing with their lights where this would ever come up though? Edit: From reddit, a use case is found [1]: > They’re actually used my law enforcement whenever they do a raid and seize a computer. If they turn the computer off, they’ll have to try and get past a password. And if the hard drive is encrypted, they’re basically SOL. > This can be a real issue for things like drug dealers or CP busts, where they need to transport the computer for analysis, but can’t turn it off. So they roll in a specially designed power bank, plug it into the computer’s power strip, then unplug the power strip from the wall. The power bank keeps the strip hot while they transport it. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/am6308/one_of_my_clients_asked_for_one_of_these_dont_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/am6308/one_of_my...
- breakingcups 4y ago
  If they're specially designed, they should have a specialized cable..
- jvolkman 4y ago
  Hung two strands of holiday lights in opposite directions.
- MBCook 4y ago
  You hang up two strings of lights outside your house. Usually each string plugs into the previous string and it all works. But if you get one string backwards instead of having a male and female connector to hook them together you have two males or two females. Taking down and putting up a long string of lights again is a huge hassle. But if you could just buy this one little cable…

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

AverageSavage 4y ago

rtkwe 4y ago

My grandma fried a printer/laptop once accidentally doing an unintentional version of this. The printer and laptop were plugged into different circuits and there was a big enough voltage difference if fried one of them.

CodeWriter23 4y ago
Likely due to neutral not being tied to a cold water pipe.
- aequitas 4y ago
  In my country (NL) it is advised against that (though it used to be common practice), since a bit of water pipe running from your house might have been replaced with a plastic one and the metal bit still sticking out into your house might not have the proper ground resistance to function as a proper earth wire.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    The US used to allow metal pipes to be counted as a ground connection, but not anyway. The US requires metal pipes be connected to ground, but that is not the same as the neutral to ground connection.
  - CodeWriter23 4y ago
    Look down and see if the metal pipe is going into the ground? At least in cases where the different services enter the premise in close proximity.
    - aequitas 4y ago
      Metal touching the ground does not guarantee a proper earth. The resistance might be to high to function properly under all circumstances a ground is needed.

dlandis 4y ago

I'm curious why is this warning only being issued now? Until now they haven't issued any warnings about this type of product?

wil421 4y ago
You can’t find these in brick and mortar stores for this reason. It is possible to make your own or buy them off Amazon.
jaywalk 4y ago
Because it was up on Amazon. You can't possibly issue warnings about every potentially dangerous product that may be sold.
mrweasel 4y ago
And why a warning? Why not tell Amazon to remove the items. I feel like most countries have a regulatory authority that has rules banning dangerous product like this.
- kube-system 4y ago
  This is that authority. The purpose of the warning is for people who have already purchased it. And because the CPSC is likely aware that Amazon Marketplace listings are akin to playing whack-a-mole with overseas drop shippers.
  - mrweasel 4y ago
    Okay, that makes more sense. Still a little weird that they can request that Amazon remove these items or face fines, regardless of it being a drop shipper.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      The CPSC has the authority to prohibit unsafe items from being offered for sale, regardless of who actually puts it in the mail.

angrygoat 4y ago

I've been shocked by one of these – I was setting up some computers, asked for an extension cord, got handed a male-to-male cord. Didn't notice until I plugged one end in, and grabbed the other while fishing around for it while looking. It never occurred to me that it might be male on both ends. The shock was very painful but the RCD tripped and saved my life. I'm quite grateful to the regulators here in Australia that made them mandatory back int he 90s.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
Interesting. I’ve never tried it out, but I assumed that an RCD / GFCI would trip more or less instantaneously. I’m kind of surprised you felt much of anything.
- TD-Linux 4y ago
  They still mechanically open the circuit breaker, which takes time.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  > To reduce the risk of electrocution, RCDs should operate within 25–40 milliseconds Now divide 1000ms to 50Hz.
  - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
    20 millisecond-seconds.
    - justsomehnguy 4y ago
      Or 16.6 for 60Hz networks. Do you remember what it's sine wave when you on AC? You will be applied to the current for up to 2-2.5 cycles, so it's up to amount of current what you will get. @londons_explore pretty summed it up and gave a link to a very good graph.
- kube-system 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

Honestly, they should just mandate a 240V generator port (with a grid cutoff interlock!) on main service boxes moving forward. Ideally, there would be some different standard connector so that the port would only work with inverter-style generators that have constant frequency / voltage as load shifts around. Otherwise, people would end up frying appliance computets with cheap generators. Of course, this would lead to an identical headline, but the body of the article would warn about extreme equipment damage, not imminent death. I have to admit I am kind of curious to know what these 110V cords do in practice. Are half the outlets on the other side of the 220 pair?

xani_ 4y ago
Most people would complain as they don't plan on using generator and extra socket and switch is extra cost. People needing that cable are just being cheap and not wanting to do it properly
- hedora 4y ago
  It's $100-200 in extra parts. California already forces people to spend $1000's on LED compatible dimmers and moisture / motion sensing switches (spoiler alert: none of these things work properly, and they all have a high first year failure rate). They also have fascination with putting power outlets in useless places.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    California has a lot of electrical requirements that other states don't have... like battery backups on garage door openers.
    - hedora 4y ago
      Wow. I guess the anti-entrapment pull cord isn't enough? I wonder if you can you put in a wheelchair accessible egress door instead.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago

I bought one of these on Amazon last year for a specific use case, and I’m knowledgeable enough to use it safely. IIRC Amazon pulled the listing a few months later and gave me a refund because it’s obviously a dangerous product.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
Can’t edit my comment, but I found the email from Amazon: The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission has provided us information that indicates that the product listed above may present a substantial product hazard. Specifically, the extension cords may pose a potential shock and electrocution risk to customers. If you still have this product, we urge you to stop using it immediately and dispose of the product. If you purchased this item for someone else, please notify the recipient immediately. There is no need for you to return the product. Refunds will be issued to the original payment method used for the purchase, or if the original payment method is no longer available, we will apply an Amazon Gift Card to your account. The safety and satisfaction of our customers is our highest priority. We regret any inconvenience this may cause you.
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
This is not an argument I like to use, but I'd say that if you were knowledgeable enough, then you wouldn't be using it.
- quickthrowman 4y ago
  I agree, if they were knowledgeable enough they would convert the load side of whatever they were trying to power from a female plug end to a male plug and use a traditional extension cord and not risk death.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  It was a temporary solution until I had time to build things out the right way, which I am now in the process of doing.
vel0city 4y ago

Lichtso 4y ago

All these cable stories always make me wonder: Is it possible to design a safe gender-less power plug? By that I mean one that has no male and female end but two symmetrical ones. That would not only be safer but also more convenient as there would only be one type of such cable, instead of three: (female-male, female-female, male-male).

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
There is the Anderson connector for DC applications. The concept could be extended with a center ground contact and retractable shields.
mrweasel 4y ago
I suppose yes. I can certainly imaging a few designs, but they would all be more expensive. Most of our electrical infrastructure is old, like really old. Modern LED light bulbs screw into a socket that over 100 years old. We run 240V to electronics that immediately transform it down to 48/24/12 or even 5V, so why even run 240V to anything beyond maybe a handful of places in an average home? It's not like you can get hurt or killed with lower voltages, but overall it would be safer.
- vel0city 4y ago
  > why even run 240V to anything beyond maybe a handful of places in an average home? While I might end up only wanting 48/24/12/5V for a number of things in my home, I may still want a good number of total watts in a room. Sure, most of the components on my desktop are running off 12/5/3.3V, but its spreading that out across a lot of wires. It would have to be a pretty beefy cable to send 500W at 12V to my desktop, that's ~42A of current! Compared to delivering it as 120V at the wall, where that 500W is then only 4.2A, which does not need nearly as beefy of wire. And even then, that's just the desktop. We still have another 100W of monitors, probably another 15W of lighting, my phone charger will use 20W, a ham radio that can do 200W. I'm going to need some really beefy wires to handle the same 1800W like what I currently have in each room of my house.
gpm 4y ago

hajile 4y ago

It's not mentioned, but this is DEADLY for innocent linemen too. They check the line before working and it's dead. They start work and some idiot without a proper transfer switch backfeeds through the transformer hitting them with 14k volts.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
How often does this actually happen? I would hope that almost anyone using one of these have the sense to turn off their main breaker.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  The kind of people this safety advisory is for don't know what a breaker even is.
- dave78 4y ago
  If not enforced mechanically, it's really easy to forget though. The last time I needed to power my house with a generator, it was because the power went out during a horrendous thunderstorm at 3am. We have a sump pit with a battery-powered backup, but when I checked on it right after the power went out I discovered the backup couldn't keep up with the volume of water coming in (it had been raining for hours already, and we ended up getting over 6" of rain that night). I had less than 10 minutes from being awoken at 3am to having to have the generator up and running to prevent our basement from getting flooded. And of course, we had nothing but flashlights and there was a thunderstorm raging outside (where I obviously needed to set up the generator). It would have been way, way too easy to forget one the many critical steps (and critical order of steps) in that scenario to use a suicide cord safely.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    A battery powered transfer pump may be worthwhile as another backup. Had your generator decided not to start you’d be sunk.
- bluGill 4y ago

gwbas1c 4y ago

Plugging things in that SHOULD NOT be plugged in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L08LjkN1k70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L08LjkN1k70 In the video, the guy made once of those cords and uses it to electrocute all different kinds of things.

xani_ 4y ago
ElectroBOOM made his whole career on videos like that. Still can't watch him, I get anxious
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  Really? I mean, it's all staged/planned. In his earlier videos, like the electric guitar one, even the spark is fake and edited in.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Most of it is fake or calculated (taking real shocks he knows are safe.) Sometimes it's real though, he nearly got himself killed when a Jacob's Ladder fell on his lap. That was real, unintentional, and extremely dangerous.
  - xani_ 4y ago
    I know he's a skilled EE and minimalizes chance for that but still, accidents happen and I'm also not exactly fan of essentially masochism on screen

drunkonvinyl 4y ago

Oooh. A giant, well-insulated paper clip!

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago

Ah. Ye olde widowmaker cables.

londons_explore 4y ago

Thought experiment: Could you make one of these wires that is safe? I think you'd have to start with human rated GFCI... Current GFCI systems aren't human rated (ie. they might fail, and should only be used as a secondary safety feature, not the primary way to stop the user touching the electricity).

dave78 4y ago
I don't think so. There are failure modes that GFCI wouldn't catch. For instance, if you managed to grab both the hot and neutral prongs at the same time of the live end of your hypothetical GFCI-protected cord, it may not trip since the current would be passing through you but still returning on the neutral (maybe there'd be enough leakage to ground through your feet/shoes to trip it anyway, but I certainly wouldn't rely on that).
bluGill 4y ago
No GFCI needed to create this. Start with a plastic cover for the end so that you can't touch the plug when it is not plugged in. Next design an an outlet that retracts the cover above only when the main breaker is turned off. (this implies the outlet is built into your circuit box)

hedora 4y ago

The correct solution here is for the courts to treat Amazon like a retailer. If your local hardware store sells you one of these, then they (assuming the manufacturer cannot be found) assume liability for whatever damage it does.

donmcronald 4y ago
Exactly. You order it from Amazon, you pay Amazon, it's shipped in an Amazon box, and arrives on an Amazon truck, but they aren't liable for anything because you didn't buy it from Amazon.
- ornornor 4y ago
  Amazon gets away with so much it’s not even funny. What a joke.
varispeed 4y ago
ToO bIg toO fAiL As politicians would say, Amazon is too big and if we had to close it down, there would be too many job losses, that would be a political suicide. In my opinion that is one of the problems of late stage capitalism - corporations are allowed to grow out of control like cancer.
- freedude 4y ago
  It is not capitalism then. It is a bastardized state sponsored social-fascism. The Society that owns it is small and not benefiting the entire population but it is still state sponsored and state encouraged.

alistairSH 4y ago

Wow. I didn't think these were a thing. Because it's such a terrible idea. Wow. Hanging Christmas lights isn't that hard. Lay'em out, attach them to each other, plug into wall to test, then and only then hang them. Kind of like the old measure twice, cut once for woodworking. And the generator usage. WTF? Who buys a $1000+ generator and then half-assess the installation? (rhetorical question) Power inlets aren't particularly expensive (relative to the cost of the generator, or burning down the house, or death).

kube-system 4y ago
> Who buys a $1000+ generator and then half-assess the installation? People who buy a generator after they lose power. They will want to begin use of it immediately, rather than scheduling an electrician for next month.
dave78 4y ago
> Power inlets aren't particularly expensive (relative to the cost of the generator, or burning down the house, or death). Most portable generators that people would buy to power their house during an outage are in the $500-$800 range (e.g. https://www.harborfreight.com/generators-engines/generators/4375-watt-gas-powered-portable-generator-with-co-secure-technology-epa-iii-59207.html https://www.harborfreight.com/generators-engines/generators/...). In another post I noted the costs, but proper installation of a generator inlet at my house, done DIY but to code with a permit and inspection, would cost me $480 just in parts. For the vast majority of people, this is not a DIY job as it involves opening the main panel, so for most they will need an electrician. So, I'd argue that a proper power inlet is actually quite expensive, roughly equal to the cost of a low-end generator (the type most people are going to be buying for an occasional outage situation). Though I certainly agree with the last part ("relative to the cost of...burning down the house or death").
bombcar 4y ago
I bet you could spend some time and find any number of people who have bought $80k electric cars and half-assed the charger installation.

flyinghamster 4y ago

I've heard of these referred to as "Jesus cords," as in you're going to meet Him soon if you mishandle it. But really, if you're going to hook your house up to a generator, you should have a proper transfer switch installed. You don't want to risk energizing the neighborhood distribution lines by feeding power into them. Those transformers work both ways.

andrew_ 4y ago
An interlock kit and appropriate aux plug box is also legal and code in many places. An expensive transfer switch is not required.
kwhitefoot 4y ago
How is your poxy little 3 kVA portable genny going to power the local network without tripping its own breaker?
- everforward 4y ago
  It genuinely does happen. I can't find a summary of how often, but if you Google "lineman electrocuted back-fed generator" you can see a bunch of cases. It's not enough power for everyone in the neighborhood to have power, but it's enough that the lines have thousands of volts in them when the utility company thinks they're dead. The amps are low, but enough to be lethal.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    Surely the lineman should have isolated the line before working on it. But of course the person connecting the generator is very much at fault for not isolating their house from the network.
  - fallingfrog 4y ago
    Yep, 50 to 100 milliamperes can kill, all you need is enough voltage to overcome the resistance of human skin, which is 1 million ohms when dry and a few tens of kohms when wet.

lbarrow 4y ago

Does CPSC not have the authority to fine Amazon or otherwise get them to stop selling these things? That seems like it would be much more effective than a post on a website.

daveoc64 4y ago

The way Christmas Lights are wired in the US is very different to the UK. They usually come pre-wired with a standard 3-pin plug in the end, or a transformer block with a propreitary connector (probably outputting DC), so you don't have to worry about any of this extension stuff.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

blaze33 4y ago

Back in 1999 we had a huge storm that cut the power for millions of people across the country. Our home was not spared as a tree fell on its power line. The power company was completely overwhelmed by the scale of the damages plus it somehow forgot about us so that it took more than a month to get the cable repaired. Luckily our neighbor still had the electricity running so I made a short male-to-male cord to connect a normal extension cord between our two houses. I knew what I was doing but I was definitely not comfortable with such a solution! I had no idea you could actually buy such cords, I thought it would obviously be outlawed considering you can easily kill yourself if you're not careful... iirc I destroyed the cord as soon as it had served its purpose because it's a really bad idea to have such a thing at home!

jaredandrews 4y ago

I am reading this story about 6 hours after it was posted here. Immediately after reading I went to amazon.com and search "male to male e" at which point I was provided several autocompletes: - male to male extension cord 3 prong - male to male extension cord adapter - male to male extension cord 10 ft - male to male extension cord black and so on. BUT when I actually completed the search ("male to male extension cord 3 prong", the first autocomplete for me), I did not get any actual "suicide cords" in the results. Thus I am forced to conclude that Amazon reacted in real time to this story. Curious if people in other areas are seeing the same thing?

meowfly 4y ago

1. This is a great PSA. I would absolutely buy this kind of cable not realizing it's dangerous. 2. What is wrong with our regulatory bodies that there hasn't been heat turned up on these marketplaces? Imagine going to CVS and searching for OTC ADHD supplements and getting results for research chemicals from XYZChems in Cambodia. I might buy them assuming that CVS would be more responsible than that. Maybe someone can explain to me why my analogy doesn't track.

anonymousiam 4y ago

I bought one of these from Amazon last year and I've received two warning emails from Amazon, along with a refund. My use case is connecting a portable generator to my house. It's all completely safe if you know what you are doing. You turn off the main breaker (between the meter and the AC mains connection), then you plug one end of the "suicide cable" into some outlet, and the other end into the generator output. Another related use case is to connect the two different phases together so the generator can power the whole house instead of half the house. For that you need two of these.

fallingfrog 4y ago

Pfft, you can just cut the male ends off a couple old extension cords and twist the wires together, then wrap it in duct tape. Just don’t reverse the hot and neutral. /s