14 ms·

David Frum's new Atlantic article shows a similar situation in Nigeria: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/benin-bronzes-nigeria-return-stolen

David Frum's new Atlantic article shows a similar situation in Nigeria: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/benin-bronzes-nigeria-return-stolen-art/671245/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/benin-b... Basically the Nigerian federal government, the state government of Benin, and the descendants of the kings of Benin who originally owned the stolen Benin bronzes all think they should be the ones to whom the bronzes should be returned -- and in the case of the current king, he asserts they are his family's private property. On top of that, there is a long track record of art being stolen from modern-day Nigerian museums and sold to other museums or collectors, and returning the bronzes just for them to be re-stolen does not benefit any of the parties involved.

UncleMeat 4y ago
Okay. But that's surely not a reason why the Brits get to keep it. "This is too hard, let's give up and keep bringing in tourist money to our museums through these artifacts" feels like an awfully convenient excuse.
- zibby8 4y ago
  Possession is 9/10 of the law.
  - MonkeyClub 4y ago
    This is along the lines of the other, equally glorious line: "Property is theft, therefore theft is property."
  - p_j_w 4y ago
    You won't mind if my gang and I steal your TV at gunpoint then?
    - karaokeyoga 4y ago
      I would mind, because possession is nine tenths of the law.
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        Especially possession of guns and weapon systems.
- snarf21 4y ago
  Or the money from it being on display in the museum could be split as a charitable donation to all the countries involved. Seems like a win-win-win-win-win.
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    People screech in terror and hide their wallets anytime the word "reparations" is said. I don't think colonial empires are going to be sending a considerable amount of plundered money back any time soon.
    - osrec 4y ago
      Quite true, not sure why you're down-voted. Colonial empires managed to get away extremely lightly, with respect to putting right their wrongs. Compare that to Nazi Germany, where reparations were paid in significant quantities, and kids in schools are still taught to be embarrassed by that section of their country's history. Whereas you get the sense that Britain is still, in some ways, proud of its rather ruthless and barbaric empire. Well, it was a long time ago, so why bring up the atrocities now, eh? Thanks for the wealth, and here are a few meaningless pennies in aid. You can consider us your heroes now. /s
      - nradov 4y ago
        Should Mali also pay reparations to Ghana over the atrocities they committed during 13th century wars of conquest?
        osrec 4y ago
        Your comment is somewhat meaningless in the context. But yes, in general, I believe that if you commit or benefit from atrocities, you should be held accountable. Even if it was your grandfather that murdered people and you inherit the wealth he looted, you should at the very least give that wealth back once you realise that it was wrong, especially if the people you looted from are dying from lack of resources. Also, just in terms of numbers, the British empire was pretty insane in terms of the quantity of people it murdered, both directly and indirectly. The number is much higher than those murdered by the Nazis, even if it happened over a longer period. They should certainly be held accountable, at the very least.
- jhanschoo 4y ago
  Arguably it is morally good as it renders fighting over possession by the region's countries a futile effort.
- Grimburger 4y ago
  I was under the impression that most museums around the world are a cost to governments rather than a boon, there's probably a few exceptions. People who are travel to see the crown jewels are going whether or not this one is there with it.
  - glenngillen 4y ago
    Especially when most museums and galleries in London (all of the UK?) are free to enter. It’s usually only touring/limited display special features that have a modest fee to see them.
    - fweimer 4y ago
      A ticket to the Tower costs 30 pounds: https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/visit/tickets-and-prices/ https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/visit/tickets-and-pri... Apparently, the Tower is not government property, but belongs to the Crown Estate. (I suspect the British cannot return the Koh-i-Noor diamond because it's not government property, either.)
- nishs 4y ago
  exactly. if you can’t determine a ‘true’ owner, even throwing the diamond into the ocean is a more fair solution than the british monarchy just keeping it while no inkling of plans to ever rectify the situation.
- concordDance 4y ago
  Surely "it brings joy in this museum and isnt causing violence in Niger" is a good reason to keep it?
- Symbiote 4y ago
  For what it's worth, the Benin Bronzes are in the British Museum, which is free to visit. (Though special exhibitions usually cost extra.) Of course, there's still monetary benefit to the museum, London and Britain from people visiting to see them. https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/contested-objects-collection/benin-bronzes https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/...
fourstar 4y ago
Seems like he needs to write a 419 email to retrieve it. https://www.419eater.com/ https://www.419eater.com/

UncleMeat 4y ago

Okay. But that's surely not a reason why the Brits get to keep it. "This is too hard, let's give up and keep bringing in tourist money to our museums through these artifacts" feels like an awfully convenient excuse.

zibby8 4y ago
Possession is 9/10 of the law.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  This is along the lines of the other, equally glorious line: "Property is theft, therefore theft is property."
- p_j_w 4y ago
  You won't mind if my gang and I steal your TV at gunpoint then?
  - karaokeyoga 4y ago
    I would mind, because possession is nine tenths of the law.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      Especially possession of guns and weapon systems.
snarf21 4y ago
Or the money from it being on display in the museum could be split as a charitable donation to all the countries involved. Seems like a win-win-win-win-win.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  People screech in terror and hide their wallets anytime the word "reparations" is said. I don't think colonial empires are going to be sending a considerable amount of plundered money back any time soon.
  - osrec 4y ago
    Quite true, not sure why you're down-voted. Colonial empires managed to get away extremely lightly, with respect to putting right their wrongs. Compare that to Nazi Germany, where reparations were paid in significant quantities, and kids in schools are still taught to be embarrassed by that section of their country's history. Whereas you get the sense that Britain is still, in some ways, proud of its rather ruthless and barbaric empire. Well, it was a long time ago, so why bring up the atrocities now, eh? Thanks for the wealth, and here are a few meaningless pennies in aid. You can consider us your heroes now. /s
    - nradov 4y ago
      Should Mali also pay reparations to Ghana over the atrocities they committed during 13th century wars of conquest?
      - osrec 4y ago
        Your comment is somewhat meaningless in the context. But yes, in general, I believe that if you commit or benefit from atrocities, you should be held accountable. Even if it was your grandfather that murdered people and you inherit the wealth he looted, you should at the very least give that wealth back once you realise that it was wrong, especially if the people you looted from are dying from lack of resources. Also, just in terms of numbers, the British empire was pretty insane in terms of the quantity of people it murdered, both directly and indirectly. The number is much higher than those murdered by the Nazis, even if it happened over a longer period. They should certainly be held accountable, at the very least.
jhanschoo 4y ago
Arguably it is morally good as it renders fighting over possession by the region's countries a futile effort.
Grimburger 4y ago
I was under the impression that most museums around the world are a cost to governments rather than a boon, there's probably a few exceptions. People who are travel to see the crown jewels are going whether or not this one is there with it.
- glenngillen 4y ago
  Especially when most museums and galleries in London (all of the UK?) are free to enter. It’s usually only touring/limited display special features that have a modest fee to see them.
  - fweimer 4y ago
    A ticket to the Tower costs 30 pounds: https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/visit/tickets-and-prices/ https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/visit/tickets-and-pri... Apparently, the Tower is not government property, but belongs to the Crown Estate. (I suspect the British cannot return the Koh-i-Noor diamond because it's not government property, either.)
nishs 4y ago
exactly. if you can’t determine a ‘true’ owner, even throwing the diamond into the ocean is a more fair solution than the british monarchy just keeping it while no inkling of plans to ever rectify the situation.
concordDance 4y ago
Surely "it brings joy in this museum and isnt causing violence in Niger" is a good reason to keep it?
Symbiote 4y ago
For what it's worth, the Benin Bronzes are in the British Museum, which is free to visit. (Though special exhibitions usually cost extra.) Of course, there's still monetary benefit to the museum, London and Britain from people visiting to see them. https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/contested-objects-collection/benin-bronzes https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/...

fourstar 4y ago

Seems like he needs to write a 419 email to retrieve it. https://www.419eater.com/ https://www.419eater.com/