8 ms·

Every job is going to suck if you're an engineer for hire. There is no mythical good place to work, and if there were, someone like these guys would be working

Every job is going to suck if you're an engineer for hire. There is no mythical good place to work, and if there were, someone like these guys would be working overtime to make it suck for you. If you're an engineer you need to be working on selling your own products and services and working within the framework of being a business owner. Once you accept a permanent salaried position, no more negotiation is possible and you will have to weigh each new set of terms dictated to you with the cost of quitting. Setting up a business allows you to renegotiate with clients and you will never have to take the career hit of quitting a salaried position again.

linuxhansl 15y ago
I disagree. Motivation is big factor for performance. A demotivated work force will only do exactly what it is being told, and show initiative. So any company - even when acting in self interest - will treat employees well. No place is just ice cream all day long, there's some dog food too sometimes, sometimes there's stress. I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years, and for the most part I love it... I love my current job. Nobody asks for overtime.
- codeonfire 15y ago
  > So any company - even when acting in self interest - will treat employees well. Well, the premise of the submission pretty much refutes that unless you call loud outbursts, threats, reduced equity, and demotions "well treated". >I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years Oh, why'd you switch companies if everything was so great? >I love my current job I'm sure everyone at Zynga loved their job at some point as well. And, while one example doesn't prove my point that every engineering job will eventually suck, it is a pattern that is repeated.
  - tsotha 15y ago
    >Well, the premise of the submission pretty much refutes that unless you call loud outbursts, threats, reduced equity, and demotions "well treated". Companies are made up of people. They don't always do the smart thing.
    - linuxhansl 15y ago
      Exactly my point.
  - enneff 15y ago
    > every engineering job will eventually suck, it is a pattern that is repeated. And running your own business won't suck? Everything can and will turn to shit eventually. That's a fact of life, so be adaptable and be prepared to do many things. But running your own business is not the only way to be happy as an engineer.
  - yannickt 15y ago
    It is not all sunshine and roses for the vast majority of businesses. Everything will eventually suck. I am not sure the world would be a better place if most engineers shifted to becoming business owners. People like Dave Cutler, Linus Torvalds, Dennis Ritchie, etc. may be more accomplished as engineers than they ever would as business owners. Yes, they are outliers, but so are most successful businesses.
    - rick888 15y ago
      "I am not sure the world would be a better place if most engineers shifted to becoming business owners." I know plenty of engineers that aren't capable of owning a business. They need to be told what to do..otherwise nothing will get done. Owning a business requires self-discipline and many people just don't have it. "but so are most successful businesses" It depends on how you define success. There are plenty of businesses that make enough in profit to give the owner a good lifestyle (as good or better than working for someone else). I've worked for other people for the 15 years (I quit a little over 2 years ago to start my own company). In every single job, no matter how good it seems like in the beginning, it eventually turned bad. You will almost always be asked to work on something you don't like, work extra hours, or get denied vacation time. I got tired of it. I got tired of being forced to ask someone if I can take a day off of work to go to the doctor or visit family after Christmas. It felt just like when I was in school. I suppose school is good training for real life. As a business owner, I have more freedom. There are many times when I don't want to work on something, but it's still enjoyable to me because it's mine. Life also seems to pass by much slower. I don't feel like I'm wasting my life. The downside is that I have more responsibility (if you can call it a downside). I can't just go into work and collect my check at the end of the month.
  - linuxhansl 15y ago
    > Oh, why'd you switch companies if everything was so great? Please keep it classy here. I worked for startups that were acquired. How about you?
nostrademons 15y ago
I think you haven't worked at enough places.
enneff 15y ago
I'm a counter example. I've run my own successful businesses in the past, but now I'm an Engineer at Google and I often worry that my life is just too good to be true. I look forward to Monday morning, and have to stop myself from working on weekends and the evenings. It's too much fun! Honestly, being paid good money to work in a supportive environment with great people is hard to beat.
- codeonfire 15y ago
  So google has been canning several projects lately. How will you feel when your project gets canned and your work thrown away? How would you feel about a 25% pay cut or being forced to move to a different state, or free food being cut? What if you're put under a micromanager who forces you to work weekends and nights to cover his/her ineptitude? Do you think GOOG shareholders would not rather keep the money that you cost? Shareholders and management will eventually alter the deal you are currently getting in their favor. If you generate value, other people want that value and it will suck at some point in the future if you continue on as rank and file.
  - chii 15y ago
    "If you generate value, other people want that value and it will suck at some point in the future" this is only true, if you don't value your own contributions. It is on your own onus to value your contributions. Say google stopped the free food - you are now free to leave google, or you are free to ask for the equivelent in added salary to cover the food. Why would you not negotiate it? why would an engineer, who have valuable contribution, be taken advantage of by others? The only reason I can think of is, the person didn't care enough to value their own contribution and hence, get stepped over.
    - codeonfire 15y ago
      > you are now free to leave google Which is exactly what I argued was the only recourse an engineer has, so I agree. > or you are free to ask for the equivelent in added salary to cover the food. That's extremely unrealistic. You don't understand that the hypothetical food was cut to save money. If they just pay out that money as cash, the company won't save anything. > Why would you not negotiate it? It requires two willing parties to negotiate. Employment terms are not negotiable once the job starts. What exactly do you think will happen if you say "give me my food back, or more money, or I quit." In the best case you will be laughed at and ignored, in the worst case you will start being pushed out of the company. Everyone is replaceable.
chrisbennet 15y ago
I'm a software developer and except for one job 25 years ago, I've enjoyed going to work every day and the companies and the men I worked for were great to me. Maybe I'm lucky?

linuxhansl 15y ago

I disagree. Motivation is big factor for performance. A demotivated work force will only do exactly what it is being told, and show initiative. So any company - even when acting in self interest - will treat employees well. No place is just ice cream all day long, there's some dog food too sometimes, sometimes there's stress. I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years, and for the most part I love it... I love my current job. Nobody asks for overtime.

codeonfire 15y ago
> So any company - even when acting in self interest - will treat employees well. Well, the premise of the submission pretty much refutes that unless you call loud outbursts, threats, reduced equity, and demotions "well treated". >I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years Oh, why'd you switch companies if everything was so great? >I love my current job I'm sure everyone at Zynga loved their job at some point as well. And, while one example doesn't prove my point that every engineering job will eventually suck, it is a pattern that is repeated.
- tsotha 15y ago
  >Well, the premise of the submission pretty much refutes that unless you call loud outbursts, threats, reduced equity, and demotions "well treated". Companies are made up of people. They don't always do the smart thing.
  - linuxhansl 15y ago
    Exactly my point.
- enneff 15y ago
  > every engineering job will eventually suck, it is a pattern that is repeated. And running your own business won't suck? Everything can and will turn to shit eventually. That's a fact of life, so be adaptable and be prepared to do many things. But running your own business is not the only way to be happy as an engineer.
- yannickt 15y ago
  It is not all sunshine and roses for the vast majority of businesses. Everything will eventually suck. I am not sure the world would be a better place if most engineers shifted to becoming business owners. People like Dave Cutler, Linus Torvalds, Dennis Ritchie, etc. may be more accomplished as engineers than they ever would as business owners. Yes, they are outliers, but so are most successful businesses.
  - rick888 15y ago
    "I am not sure the world would be a better place if most engineers shifted to becoming business owners." I know plenty of engineers that aren't capable of owning a business. They need to be told what to do..otherwise nothing will get done. Owning a business requires self-discipline and many people just don't have it. "but so are most successful businesses" It depends on how you define success. There are plenty of businesses that make enough in profit to give the owner a good lifestyle (as good or better than working for someone else). I've worked for other people for the 15 years (I quit a little over 2 years ago to start my own company). In every single job, no matter how good it seems like in the beginning, it eventually turned bad. You will almost always be asked to work on something you don't like, work extra hours, or get denied vacation time. I got tired of it. I got tired of being forced to ask someone if I can take a day off of work to go to the doctor or visit family after Christmas. It felt just like when I was in school. I suppose school is good training for real life. As a business owner, I have more freedom. There are many times when I don't want to work on something, but it's still enjoyable to me because it's mine. Life also seems to pass by much slower. I don't feel like I'm wasting my life. The downside is that I have more responsibility (if you can call it a downside). I can't just go into work and collect my check at the end of the month.
- linuxhansl 15y ago
  > Oh, why'd you switch companies if everything was so great? Please keep it classy here. I worked for startups that were acquired. How about you?

nostrademons 15y ago

I think you haven't worked at enough places.

enneff 15y ago

I'm a counter example. I've run my own successful businesses in the past, but now I'm an Engineer at Google and I often worry that my life is just too good to be true. I look forward to Monday morning, and have to stop myself from working on weekends and the evenings. It's too much fun! Honestly, being paid good money to work in a supportive environment with great people is hard to beat.

codeonfire 15y ago
So google has been canning several projects lately. How will you feel when your project gets canned and your work thrown away? How would you feel about a 25% pay cut or being forced to move to a different state, or free food being cut? What if you're put under a micromanager who forces you to work weekends and nights to cover his/her ineptitude? Do you think GOOG shareholders would not rather keep the money that you cost? Shareholders and management will eventually alter the deal you are currently getting in their favor. If you generate value, other people want that value and it will suck at some point in the future if you continue on as rank and file.
- chii 15y ago
  "If you generate value, other people want that value and it will suck at some point in the future" this is only true, if you don't value your own contributions. It is on your own onus to value your contributions. Say google stopped the free food - you are now free to leave google, or you are free to ask for the equivelent in added salary to cover the food. Why would you not negotiate it? why would an engineer, who have valuable contribution, be taken advantage of by others? The only reason I can think of is, the person didn't care enough to value their own contribution and hence, get stepped over.
  - codeonfire 15y ago
    > you are now free to leave google Which is exactly what I argued was the only recourse an engineer has, so I agree. > or you are free to ask for the equivelent in added salary to cover the food. That's extremely unrealistic. You don't understand that the hypothetical food was cut to save money. If they just pay out that money as cash, the company won't save anything. > Why would you not negotiate it? It requires two willing parties to negotiate. Employment terms are not negotiable once the job starts. What exactly do you think will happen if you say "give me my food back, or more money, or I quit." In the best case you will be laughed at and ignored, in the worst case you will start being pushed out of the company. Everyone is replaceable.

chrisbennet 15y ago

I'm a software developer and except for one job 25 years ago, I've enjoyed going to work every day and the companies and the men I worked for were great to me. Maybe I'm lucky?