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Head-On Crash: 2009 Chevrolet Malibu vs. 1959 Bel Air (2009)
- Melatonic 4y agoIt is too bad the 2nd generation (and final) Corvair was not more popular because it was one of the first cars with a crumpling steering column!
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoEven if they hadn't strategically picked that model of old car for maximum crunch factor anyone without a seat belt may as well be on a motorcycle. Edit: Deleted the rest of the comment, It is not worthwhile to have a nuanced discussion about the merits of the various safety improvements with this community.
- yellowapple 4y agoA seatbelt wouldn't have helped much; maybe the Bel-Air driver would've been flung around a bit less, but one would still be crushed within what's effectively a giant crumple zone.
- TylerE 4y agoAnd that’s if you weren’t already dead from having your chest caved in by a non-collapsible steering column (Remember, a seat belt in this era meant a lap belt only.
- dieselgate 4y agoThe article states this was to “celebrate” the 50th anniversary of the test institute in 2009. I agree with your point about controlling for variables but it does not seem to be the goal of the video.
- cjensen 4y agoIf you step through the video with the "," and "." keys, you'll see that the steering wheel ends up in contact with the drivers seatback. A seatbelt that holds the driver in place doesn't help if there is no safe space for a body.
- Aloha 4y agoThe 59 GM Full Sizes with an X frame did particularly poorly in overlap crashes - it would have performed better with a full head on - or a slimly later one with a permitter frame.
- Doxin 4y agoMost cars do particularly poorly in overlap crashes. It's why those get tested specifically. it's harder to absorb than a full overlap crash.
- bbarn 4y agoIt's also a more likely type of crash to occur. Not many cases where one would square off the hit straight on, I'd imagine rather most cases at least one occupant is trying to avoid the crash by moving to the right.
- 41b696ef1113 4y ago>...by not doing a offset test or picking literally anything but a GM X-frame car (notoriously bad at overlap crashed, even by 1950s standards) So you are mad that they used a street legal car of the day to show that things have improved? A fun historical fact I just discovered, "Ford offered seat belts as an option in 1955. These were not popular, with only 2% of Ford buyers choosing to pay for seatbelts in 1956" [0]. Which reads to me that many 1959 drivers would have been unlikely to have or use a seatbelt. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt
- userbinator 4y agoI think the point is that an X-frame is extremely weak, so they showed one of the worst cars in 1959 to be in a crash with; many other cars of the time had full perimeter frames: https://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-an-x-ray-look-at-gms-x-frame-1957-1970/ https://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automot...
- encoderer 4y agoIt’s a useful piece of context but it’s not really like the x-frame was niche and cherry-picked for this example. They sold a lot of these things (the platform, not just bel-airs)
- dragonstyle 4y agoThe 64 sedan had 3 point lap belts and a roll cage reinforcing the passenger compartment. Not really a particularly compelling example of a typical ‘64 sedan…
- sokoloff 4y agoNeither my 1965 coupe or 1966 convertible Mustangs came from the factory with lap belts. Both have subsequently been modified to have (2 point) lap belts, which still feel sketchy as hell to me.
- bink 4y agoThat's interesting. My 66 coupe definitely had Ford branded lap belts complete with the Mustang logo on the button.
- toast0 4y agoHave you used aftermarket 3 point belt? A family member's Ranchero had them; the shoulder restraint slid into the lap belt near the buckle, but if you moved it would slip out. I can't imagine that being helpful in a crash, just a tethered weight to fly around.
- sokoloff 4y agoI fitted the lap belts to my 'vert, which was already very much not-stock when I bought it, so I didn't feel bad making even more modifications (hydraulic clutch, modern T5Z trans, electronic ignition). There isn't a good, above-the-shoulder mounting point for the shoulder belt, unless you weld in a cage or mount one to an aftermarket seat. The coupe is a close to correct C-code, which I've driven under 1000 miles in the last decade, so I've decided to leave it with period-correct 1965 belts that a prior owner installed rather than modify the B-pillar as my exposure isn't very high on that car due to very low annual miles.
- lmm 4y agoThere's very little evidence for more complex belts having safety advantages over lap belts, FWIW.
- pacificmint 4y agoDefinitely worth watching the video. Even though the results not surprising, it is still amazing to see how well the interior space around the 2009 driver stays intact. And how much the space around the 1959 drive does not. From the article: > According to safety engineers at the scene, the driver of the 2009 Chevrolet Malibu would likely have suffered slight knee injury. The driver of the 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air would have died instantly.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bee_rider 4y agoI bet the Malibu driver would have a sore neck for a while. Wonder how whiplash cases have trended over time. Wouldn't be surprised if they've gone up -- more survivable crashes, haha.
- thematrixturtle 4y agoWhiplash is also popular for insurance/disability fraud. There was an interesting story on HN a while back about how the prevalence of whiplash after accidents in the US is far higher than in Europe, for no other easily explainable reason, but I can't find the link now.
- dylan604 4y agoIs whiplash something that shows up in some sort of scan that shows definitively yes/no that the patient has whiplash? If not, then that makes sense why it would be so prevelant of a thing for the ambulance chasers to use
- bee_rider 4y agoI believe it is mostly just pulled muscles in the neck, so pretty hard to diagnose with imaging or that sort of thing.
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- dcsommer 4y agoWhat's the weight difference? It's tragedy of the commons without controlling for weight.
- credit_guy 4y agoThey have virtually the same weight at 3500 pounds (plus minus 50 depending on configuration).
- nayuki 4y agoI think an arms race is a better way to describe the increasing weight of road vehicles.
- namdnay 4y agothey weigh the same..
- gooseyman 4y agoI drove a 59 Catalina for a summer and thought it was a lead sled. It weight about the same as a modern sedan. Blew my mind until I thought about the lack of electronics and safety equipment
- dylan604 4y agoYes, because every head-on collision only occurs between similarly weighted vehicles
- breitling 4y agoA big thank you to all the engineers who made my car safer. Feels good after watching this
- TrueGeek 4y agoAs someone who drives a car from the 60s on weekends this was terrifying.
- hunter-gatherer 4y agoMy thought as well. Might be time to trade my shit in.
- wwweston 4y agoYeah, I'm having second thoughts about my 91 sedan with no airbag...
- orangepurple 4y agoThe lack of airbag is OK because you'll be decapitated by the steering column pushing the steering wheel through your neck (1:45 in linked video): 1998 Toyota Corolla vs 2015 Toyota Corolla (Auris): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xidhx_f-ouU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xidhx_f-ouU
- kube-system 4y agoIt’s not the airbag that keeps the steering column from going into your neck, it’s the collapsible steering column.
- Sebb767 4y agoI think the implied point was that the steering column will kill you anyway, so the lack of an airbag is not a problem.
- smileysteve 4y ago
- franciscop 4y agoFrom [2009]
- trelane 4y agoWhat about the passenger with their feet up on the dash, though?
- matheusmoreira 4y agoThat passenger is fucked. Huge forces will be applied to the legs and transmitted to the pelvis and other body parts. Probable femoral, pelvic and especially acetabular fractures. Important nearby structures may also be damaged, including major blood vessels which could cause severe bleeding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetabular_fracture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetabular_fracture Here's one news example: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/27/x-ray-injuries-feet-on-car-dashboard/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/27/x-ray-injuries-feet-on-c...
- xattt 4y agoAn variation of the above question: in the event of a side curtain airbag deployment, what happens to rear-seat passengers who rest their heads on the doors?
- lucakiebel 4y agoNothing much, probably. Unless they somehow manage to get their head in between the glass and curtain airbag. With side impacts from cars on cars the door frames will bulge out at the top which may allow for more space for the curtain airbags. Though I feel this won’t help when you get t-boned by a F350 in your sedan.
- ramesh31 4y agoThis is ultimately why minor fender benders have become so expensive with new cars. They are designed to be destroyed. Having a huge solid chrome bumper seems safer. But it actually just transfers the energy of a crash directly to your body.
- grogenaut 4y agoI'm pretty sure the bumpers were steel with a chrome plating, so not solid anything actually.
- encoderer 4y agoIs it not also possible that car parts have become a giant ripoff? Surely if you bought a $30k car by parts you would be paying like $50-100k, even for late model cars still in production.
- TylerE 4y agoWhy would you consider that a ripoff? Do you not understanding that things like warehousing cost a LOT of money, especially given that the actual demand for spares will be more or less random.
- namdnay 4y agoI guess it's a bit of both - I'm sure car manufacturers have realised that they they can lower the sticker price by bumping up the margins on aftermarket
- 83 4y ago$50-100k seems cheap when you compare the cost and space required to store a complete car (can store it outdoors even!) vs a fully dissasembled vehicle with all the shelving, bins, packaging, and inventory system for someone to pick specific parts for those who need it.
- registeredcorn 4y agoIf only something could be done to keep modern cars from looking like a rolling abomination.
- atwebb 4y agoNot every "classic" car looked good and not every current car looks bad. Just with Chevy models during the muscle car era you had the Greebrier, Vega, or 4 door models of Nova/Chevelle.
- echelon 4y agoMost modern coupes and sedans look like eggs or computer mice. They're bland and uninteresting. Boxy cars from the 80's had way more personality - even the ugly ones. In my opinion, the Countach or even the DeLorean had a design aesthetic that felt like a pinnacle that we've since strayed far, far away from. I don't want a bar of Dial soap. I want a sci-fi dream. I'd like it if cars came as a kit you could heavily customize, like a PC. Maybe with the simpler construction of EVs this will become possible. I know I'd put a lot of attention into it. As vain and unimportant as it may be, appearance is my #1 most valued trait and deciding factor when I buy vehicles. Everything else is secondary.
- dylan604 4y ago>Most modern coupes and sedans look like eggs or computer mice. They're bland and uninteresting yet very aerodynamic. at some point, fuel effeciency/battery use requirements will lead all cars to look like a rain drop
- xattt 4y ago> Boxy cars from the 80's had way more personality - even the ugly ones You must be a big fan of Ioniq 5 styling.
- tjr225 4y ago
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- Nifty3929 4y agoWhy were they offset side-to-side about half a car width? Was this on purpose, or just poor aiming?
- ununoctium87 4y agoMost common type of collision IIRC
- csixty4 4y agoIt also distributes stress between the "safety cage" around the passengers and the structures on the side of the car. Modern cars respond pretty well to a perfect head-on collision but things get messy with an offset crash.
- crb 4y agoSuch that the drivers crash into each other, and not into the empty passenger seat of the other car.
- Doxin 4y agoThat's on purpose. Used to be they only tested straight-on crashes. Of course this ment that car manufacturers only optimized for that situation. In the real world you're rarely aiming squarely for the front of the other car though, so those sorts of crashes were rather a lot more lethal until crash testing started taking them into account. It's also generally just a harder crash for a car to deal with, so it makes sense to use in a comparison like this.
- TheJoeMan 4y agoUnfortunately they may be over-optimizing... https://danluu.com/car-safety/ https://danluu.com/car-safety/ discusses "gaming" the tests. Maybe protect the driver more at the passenger's expense.
- Doxin 4y agoWhat's that quote about metrics and goals again? Crash testing will need to continually get updated to avoid manufacturers being able to target the tests too much.
- idontwantthis 4y agoHorrifying to think that back then people were basically driving with a spear pointed at their heart.
- et-al 4y agoAn economist had a thought experiment it may promote safer driving: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Tullock#Tullock's_spike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Tullock#Tullock's_spike They installed a divider on the Golden Gate Bridge back in 2015, and there was an unintended consequence of drivers speeding more because the perception of safety increased. https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Golden-Gate-Bridge-barrier-leads-to-rampant-6034315.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Golden-Gate-Bridge-ba...
- rkangel 4y agoThis is a phenomenon called risk compensation. The Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation) covers the mechanism well, but misses one important thing - in every study that was ever done, the risk compensation effect was less than the safety effect introduced. E.g. the Golden Gate bridge barrier was a big increase in safety, and while people driving faster mitigates some of it it's still definitely an improvement. [I don't have data on the Golden Gate Bridge specifically, just using it as an example]
- idontwantthis 4y agoPeople are suicidal enough in cars now. I think anything can get normalized pretty quickly.
- BizarroLand 4y agoMan, people are using weighted chains to keep their Tesla Autopilots thinking a human is in control so they can sleep on their way to the office. The world is full of crazy and stupid people.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- just_steve_h 4y agoIt's alluded to briefly in other comments, but one of the biggest problems in our country is the fact that our built environment was completely reconfigured for the automobile - and not simply due to "demand." Since the 1960's there have been tremendous advances in safety for people INSIDE of automobiles, but the safety of people outside of automobiles continues to be largely ignored. There is a kind of arms race underway toward larger and heavier vehicles, which are far more deadly than small cars. We have inherited so many tragedies from our grandparents' generation - the dominance of the car is on spar with nuclear weapons in the threat it poses to humanity.
- withinboredom 4y agoThis is one of the reasons why we left the US. It’s so nice to walk or bike or train everywhere.
- weberer 4y agoYou could also do that in big cities like Boston and NYC.
- withinboredom 4y agoNot even close to the same thing.
- weberer 4y agoYes they are. Boston in particular was pretty great in that regard. Its metro system is much more expansive than it is here in Helsinki.
- winrid 4y agoThe automotive industry has put a ton of work into pedestrian safety with frontal impacts. The car is required in a developing country like the US. There is so much space between things still. Our grandparents wanted to get to work and travel. Hard to blame them. Also, so far, MAD has greatly reduced the number of big wars. It's hard to predict the future, but nuclear weapons so far have provided a lot of peace.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Stratoscope 4y agoI had a friend some years ago who wrote survival advice. Not just SHTF stuff, but how to best survive everyday life situations. He had some car advice: > Forget "crumple zones". You want to be in the biggest, heaviest car. That's the one that will win the collision. It will often be an older car. In this case, the '09 Malibu and the '59 Bel Air are almost exactly the same weight (about 3500 pounds), so you might think it would be an even draw. Or counting the fact that the Bel Air is almost 20 inches longer, it should win! I have a feeling that my friend would have felt much safer in the Bel Air.
- withinboredom 4y agoSometimes I wonder if people just write this kind of stuff to troll people. My wife was looking for ways to repel wasps over an outdoor dinner, and she found one saying to use lemon juice. We were like, “I’m pretty sure wasps would love some of that, not be repelled by it.”
- leoedin 4y agoThere is a bit of truth in your friends thoughts - when cars are crash tested it's using their own kinetic energy, so a bigger heavier car must be proportionally stronger to resist the crash forces, and get the same rating. So all things being equal, a big heavy car with the same crash occupancy rating as a small light car will be better to be in in crashes which involve another car.
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- Aloha 4y agoThe 59 GM Full Sizes with an X frame did perform particularly poorly in overlap crashes - it would have performed better with a full head on - or a earlier/later one with a full permitter frame. Nevermind the virtual indestructible nearly contemporary unibody mopars and fords (59 or 60 for mopar, and 61 for lincolns - the lincoln continentals were banned from demolition derby for a reason). While a full permitter frame (or early unibodies) does not negate the benefits of crumple zones - they absorb the impact of the crash, shielding the occupants from the forces of the impact - the X-Body GM Full Size does still perform exceptionally poorly. I don't think anyone car argue that modern cars don't perform several orders of magnitude better in severe crashes - however for light crashes, your hunk of 50's-70's metal will often end up with significantly less damage, and at a minimum can be driven home.
- namdnay 4y ago> however for light crashes, your hunk of 50's-70's metal will often end up with significantly less damage I don't get your point - yes they have less damage, because they're not soaking up the energy. That's like saying "a motorcycle helmet made of solid steel won't damage as easily as a modern one". Sure, but that's exactly the point of a modern helmet
- jlkuester7 4y agoI think the point is that, practically speaking, there is no such thing as a "fender-bender" with modern cars. Even very low-speed collisions typically involve lots of plastic going "crunch". Instead of your fender being a little bent, you now have dozens of pieces of plastic paneling that have to be replaced.
- dotancohen 4y agoFender-bender has been replaced by crumplezone-groan.
- dotancohen 4y ago
- nickt 4y agoThe closest UK equivalent is the Fifth Gear Discovery vs. Espace from a few years ago. https://youtu.be/mLLanPwRgio https://youtu.be/mLLanPwRgio
- Dah00n 4y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYO0-Ig0VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYO0-Ig0VU
- merek 4y agoThe speed of the airbag is remarkable. It's fully deployed and waiting moments after impact (see 54s, easier to see with 0.25 playback speed). Perhaps a rare example of an explosion that saves lives.
- unwind 4y agoYes, it's really cool to see. I imagine it's really scary to experience in a less dramatic situation, i.e. when you're not crashing but still having the bag inflate while in the driver's seat (hit when standing still etc). This article [1] has good technical details about construction and so on, two facts: the bag moves at around 200 mpg (322 km/h) when inflating, and it's all done in 1/25:th of a second, i.e. 40 ms. [1]: https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/airbag1.htm https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-reg...
- sidewndr46 4y agoI watched a video a while back where a BMW driver just drives off a cliff (and survives). He had an in-car camera. Apparently BMWs sense free-fall and just go ahead and deploy the airbags. They were fully inflated seconds before he hit the ground, probably saving his life. I thought this was a pretty interesting safety feature.
- basicplus2 4y agoBe a different story if it was a mercedes from that era https://group-media.mercedes-benz.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/September-1959-First-crash-test-at-Mercedes-Benz.xhtml?oid=9908016 https://group-media.mercedes-benz.com/marsMediaSite/en/insta...
- NonNefarious 4y agoThis was well-publicized at the time.
- einpoklum 4y agoBut why do they make car bumpers small, and paint them the same color as the car rather than leave them the way they are? ... is what I always wonder.
- yrro 4y agoA friend of mine is of the opinion that all safety improvements in cars should be reverted on the grounds that killing more motorists is good for the planet. At first I thought this was ridiculous. But now that we're deep into the climate hypercrisis, I'm not so sure... My slightly more moderate view is that safety improvements should be focussed solely on preserving life outside the vehicle (both in terms of safety from crashes and damage to the environment). Put a giant spike sticking out of the steering column that protrudes more and more as you drive above 30 mph for instance...
- sgt 4y agoThere was recently a souped up car from the 60s crashing in traffic in LA due to the brakes failing. Has anyone got the video link? They had GoPro's so pretty amazing to see their reactions.
- sgt 4y agoHere it is: 1300HP Mercury Comet crashing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oO226PgSkg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oO226PgSkg Their reactions are priceless and they are so lucky. A bit negligent perhaps.
- nikau 4y agoNegligent narcissistic assholes. They drove a faulty car knowingly, riding the brakes and cooked them. Then in the video all they talk about is their injuries and how bad it was for them and damage to their clown car, no concern for the innocent person they hit. A grade assholes.
- sgt 4y agoTo be fair, I think they learned from this and also thousands watching the video. Let's hope they are more careful next time.
- namdnay 4y ago"a bit" :) are there no mandatory safety checks in the US? In most countries i've been in, a "home improved" car like this would need to be homologated before being driven on a public road
- cafard 4y agoVehicle inspection rules vary from state to state. In Maryland, a vehicle must be inspected for safety when registered, then every couple of years for emissions. In the District of Columbia, there is a safety and emissions inspection every two years. My recollection is that Pennsylvania and Colorado inspect cars every couple of years. In DC the safety inspection is done by the city, elsewhere by approved service stations.
- soferio 4y agoAre there any statistics on how much higher the survival rate is in a larger car rather than a smaller car? (assuming roughly equivalent safety technology).