10 ms·

Woman holds up Lebanese bank for $13k of her own money

59 points by bluish29 4y ago

MerelyMortal 4y ago
A month ago a man in Lebanon did the same and was considered a national hero: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/16/1117658776/lebanon-bank-hostage-economic-crisis https://www.npr.org/2022/08/16/1117658776/lebanon-bank-hosta... (also mentioned in OP's article, but some people don't or can't read the article)
themaninthedark 4y ago
Tangentially related a guy did the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32503541 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32503541
bpodgursky 4y ago
It's incredible to me that people choose to make fun of the uselessness of crypto, when former 1st (or close to it) world countries produce stories like this about bank collapses and locked accounts / evaporated money. Make fun of fraud or emissions or whatever if you want... but come on, there's an obvious use-case for owning your own money.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  You can own your own money if you like but you can't define its value by yourself regardless of whether it is fiat paper money, bits in a bank account, or bits in a distributed ledger. In addition governments can simply outlaw your money and then it will be worthless for important things like buying houses, cars, food, water, electricity.
- conception 4y ago
  Luna has entered the chat.
- christophilus 4y ago
  I agree with you. I'm a crypto skeptic, but even in our own (US) history, you've had bank freezes, and at one point, if you held gold in your bank, it was confiscated. Anyone who thinks these events are permanently in the past is ignoring the lessons of history.
  - junofan 4y ago
    What’s a crypto skeptic? There’s a pretty clear use case here for some sort of money not controlled by violence, but by math, no?
    - SlickNixon 4y ago
      > not controlled by violence You've obviously never fired an automatic weapon in a data center.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Why would math alone have any actual value? I personally place the long term value of all current crypto coins at 0$. Risk makes them a poor medium of exchange for the average person, and new investors eventually want to have positive returns on their investments.
    - JustFinishedBSG 4y ago
      > but by math Crypto is not any more "controlled by math" than french fries are "controlled by chemistry". I hate everything about crypto but this is by far the cringiest talking point; probably because I'm a mathematician.
    - NikolaNovak 4y ago
      >>money not controlled by violence, but by math Can you please elaborate? :) My initial reaction is a massive groan at the seamlessly meaningless platitude, but that's unfair. Maybe you were in a rush, on the phone, and there's a cogent argument that I'd be eager to hear out. Edit: To elaborate: both "Controlled by violence" and "Controlled by math" I view as summarized and abstracted way beyond point of sheer uselessness; and only used to propagate a particular point of view. That point of view may be accurate or not, I may agree with it or not, but it does not include useful data or conduct a honest discussion. There's a lot of math involved in fiat money from central banks. There's nothing in crypto that may prevent or shield from violence. Individuals certainly earn money/wealth/value in certain way and their storage medium of choice cannot be summarized in such simple ways. And "Controlled by math" is massively misleading - at best, at best, we can say it has some origins in math. But it certainly is not controlled by math - it is ultimately controlled by people and institutions.
- djhworld 4y ago
  I don't know this woman's situation but the general assertion is people need their money to pay for basic goods/services > leaving much of the population unable to pay for basic needs I think the argument for crypto would make sense if everywhere accepted it, but I don't think it would be that useful if you need to exchange to fiat currency at volatile exchange rates to feed your family...
  - wolongong942 4y ago
    The range of crypto -> gift card or crypto -> virtual credit card options have improved quite a bit, and you usually get ~2% cashback for purchasing these which can help to alleviate some of the loss through fees. In the US and AU you can pay a lot of bills with crypto through sites like Bitrefill. I find that you can basically live on crypto in Australia now, but this probably wouldn't be true for people living in poor countries as Visa/MC/ and the gift card vendors don't bother with small/risky markets.
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      And you are still relying on centralized third parties such as Visa and Mastercard (not to mention the crypto exchange that issued the card) to continue doing business with you, so I would argue the situation hasn't improved in reality. What makes you think your centralized crypto exchange would be any better in handling your "money" than your bank is? Why can't they freeze your money to respond to a fraud claim or government order just like a regular bank?
  - johndevor 4y ago
    Yes it's volatile, but in many countries around the world, inflation is worse. (Including Lebanon.)
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > there's an obvious use-case for owning your own money. There's also an obvious reason people don't do that. Money under the mattress - whether it's dollar bills or a hardware wallet - is vulnerable, too, and has minimal recourse when it's lost to carelessness or hostile action. Governments seize crypto all the time. Exchanges pause withdrawals. Entire shitcoins collapse entirely. People lose their keys.
- seibelj 4y ago
  Here’s a podcast discussion with someone in Lebanon and how Bitcoin works there https://saifedean.com/podcast/bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-thomas-semaan/ https://saifedean.com/podcast/bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-thomas... Article explaining the p2p money changers in Lebanon that use crypto https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beirut/ https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beir...
- indigochill 4y ago
  > there's an obvious use-case for owning your own money Definitely! But on a blockchain you don't own your money, the consensus does. The Ethereum split proved this.
  - alexslobodnik 4y ago
    it is a gradient of ownership do i own the house i bought? well, yes as long i keep paying property taxes. what is ownership really and how much more/less does one own crypto vs. money in bank. is it quantity dependent? is it time sensitive? there are no certainties in life, besides death and taxes.
- goethes_kind 4y ago
  People put their money in the bank to safeguard themselves from getting robbed. Yes, sometimes the banks end up being the thieves. But if people simply stashed their money under the mattress, that would be like going back to square one. Thugs would have a very easy time, taking your money, if all they have to do is convince you to reveal the key.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  As I replied every previous story like this: Can you elaborate how crypto solves this issue in an optimal way? 1. You can store cash, if you choose to. Way way way easier than Crypto. This should be the end of this argument but let's continue. 2. Can average citizen safely and reliably store crypto on their own anywhere nearly as easily and safely as cash? Otherwise, you're just at mercy of unregulated "exchanges" as opposed to "banks" and your power is even lower and the horror news stories even more plentiful. 3. Ultimately, crypto is a complicated technological stack that (and we will have a difference of opinions) government, if it sufficiently chooses to, can shut down and control. Crypto introduces a mind boggling chain of technical dependencies and gotchas and risks and dangers, which are super fun for us on HN to play with and argue about, but are a pit of snakes and spikes for most regular people (and just because somebody somewhere who's not technologically adept has used crypto successfully, that does not mean they were not exposed to massive risk; you can play Russian roulette and "win", it does not make it a good idea)
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    1. You can store cash but, in most developed countries, if you try to actually use a large amount of that cash you will find that no-one will accept it or you will get repeatedly audited. The only reason to hold large amounts of cash, in the view of banks and the govt, is tax avoidance...which is usually correct. 2. It is easier, it is safer. Way easier (again, almost no places accept cash for transactions due to AML, I know a guy who used to pay for his cars with briefcases of cash, he stopped being able to do that more than a decade ago...I am in the UK). 3. I used to agree with this point but actually shutting down a P2P network is going to be very tricky in practice. If one govt in the world decides it doesn't want to do this, it won't happen. Crypto is still a terrible customer experience for regular people: fees are unclear, you can put in the wrong address and the money is gone, etc. A lot of this can happen with bank transfers too though (and does, Citi accidentally wired someone $500m in 2020, iirc, and has been unable to get it back). I come from a traditional finance background (and studied economic history, I did my thesis on monetary policy in the 60s so I am quite familiar with the limits on purchasing gold to prop up Bretton Woods). I was initially sceptical of crypto but, imo, it is a superior technology. Not for all transactions, for example some central banks have introduced instant bank transfers, but for some. And, in some cases, it will be a superior store of value. This is already happening in the place mentioned in the OP: the reason people are taking their money out of banks is crypto, holding cash does nothing for you because inflation is nearly 200% annually, you take it out and by next month your cash is worthless, your life savings wouldn't buy a loaf of bread.
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  if there was a privacy stablecoin, like USD monero, i wouldn't hesitate to put my savings there. as long as it had a secure future and easy way to use that money for payment. unfortunately this is not possible and i don't think it ever will be. mainly because cryptos are not really backed by anything. and anything that is backed will be so heavily regulated as to be a government cbdc. and you're back to square one. already usdc and usdt can be frozen in your wallet.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
readingnews 4y ago
I am not saying we should hold up banks, or commit crimes, but in very recent years, I have had at least three experiences with my own bank and my relatives bank that made me really sit back and ponder. A relative was going to gift me a (fairly, not huge) sum of money. The bank refused to allow them to wire transfer. As in, flat out, nope, you want to wire transfer more than say $5,000 and it is not to a corporation (e.g. mortgage, car company, etc, but to an individual) the answer is NO. This was truly eye-opening to me. This was their money. As in, hey, I worked for this money, and I would like to spend it. And... the answer is no. Of course, I understand, they can just cut a check, or make a money order, but that adds a delay, and hey, what is the bank there for? To add delays? A very similar thing happened to my bank. I literally was going to purchase a used item, it was a few grand, I went in, said I wanted a few grand from my account. The answer was NO. Write a check or grab a money order. Hey, regardless of the situation, regardless of "perhaps this person is doing a shady cash-only deal", that money in the bank is technically MINE, right? NO, its not my money. Its the banks money. I guess possession is really 9/10 of the law. After a few of these incidents happened and I started talking to friends, I head similar stories over and over. I find it amazing that citizens are pretty calm about this. It took a fair amount of emotional intelligence to not freak out in the lobby when the teller tells me the money I really worked for I just can not have right now.
- differentView 4y ago
  Are you in the U.S.? What banks did this to you and your relative?
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  And the reason why is AML. Your experience is bad, but have you seen the public reaction when a bank has been involved in money laundering? It is irrational (and strange, countries in the EU will happily launder your money, some domestic banks still accept suitcases full of cash in the basement but the rage is all directed to US/UK banks where money laundering is almost impossible without blackmailing someone in AML...this happens, but it is fairly rare...and risky because most banks now have teams of people watching their AML staff, following them outside work, going through their emails, etc.). The solution is simple: remove AML/KYC regulations. Let police investigate and find evidence of crimes. This isn't the job of banks, banks aren't the police, AML departments are basically run as private police departments, and the false positive rate is (unsurprisingly) through the roof. They also don't do a particularly good job with true positives either: some obscure Kazakh politician wants to open an account with $5m...okay, there is no Wikipedia page for him, he has provided proof of income, you suspect it is forged, you call the Kazakh police, they tell you it is legit...it is very hard to get right because you don't have any legal investigatory powers.

59 points by bluish29 4y ago

A month ago a man in Lebanon did the same and was considered a national hero: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/16/1117658776/lebanon-bank-hostage-economic-crisis https://www.npr.org/2022/08/16/1117658776/lebanon-bank-hosta... (also mentioned in OP's article, but some people don't or can't read the article)

themaninthedark 4y ago

Tangentially related a guy did the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32503541 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32503541

bpodgursky 4y ago

It's incredible to me that people choose to make fun of the uselessness of crypto, when former 1st (or close to it) world countries produce stories like this about bank collapses and locked accounts / evaporated money. Make fun of fraud or emissions or whatever if you want... but come on, there's an obvious use-case for owning your own money.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
You can own your own money if you like but you can't define its value by yourself regardless of whether it is fiat paper money, bits in a bank account, or bits in a distributed ledger. In addition governments can simply outlaw your money and then it will be worthless for important things like buying houses, cars, food, water, electricity.
conception 4y ago
Luna has entered the chat.
christophilus 4y ago
I agree with you. I'm a crypto skeptic, but even in our own (US) history, you've had bank freezes, and at one point, if you held gold in your bank, it was confiscated. Anyone who thinks these events are permanently in the past is ignoring the lessons of history.
- junofan 4y ago
  What’s a crypto skeptic? There’s a pretty clear use case here for some sort of money not controlled by violence, but by math, no?
  - SlickNixon 4y ago
    > not controlled by violence You've obviously never fired an automatic weapon in a data center.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Why would math alone have any actual value? I personally place the long term value of all current crypto coins at 0$. Risk makes them a poor medium of exchange for the average person, and new investors eventually want to have positive returns on their investments.
  - JustFinishedBSG 4y ago
    > but by math Crypto is not any more "controlled by math" than french fries are "controlled by chemistry". I hate everything about crypto but this is by far the cringiest talking point; probably because I'm a mathematician.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    >>money not controlled by violence, but by math Can you please elaborate? :) My initial reaction is a massive groan at the seamlessly meaningless platitude, but that's unfair. Maybe you were in a rush, on the phone, and there's a cogent argument that I'd be eager to hear out. Edit: To elaborate: both "Controlled by violence" and "Controlled by math" I view as summarized and abstracted way beyond point of sheer uselessness; and only used to propagate a particular point of view. That point of view may be accurate or not, I may agree with it or not, but it does not include useful data or conduct a honest discussion. There's a lot of math involved in fiat money from central banks. There's nothing in crypto that may prevent or shield from violence. Individuals certainly earn money/wealth/value in certain way and their storage medium of choice cannot be summarized in such simple ways. And "Controlled by math" is massively misleading - at best, at best, we can say it has some origins in math. But it certainly is not controlled by math - it is ultimately controlled by people and institutions.
djhworld 4y ago
I don't know this woman's situation but the general assertion is people need their money to pay for basic goods/services > leaving much of the population unable to pay for basic needs I think the argument for crypto would make sense if everywhere accepted it, but I don't think it would be that useful if you need to exchange to fiat currency at volatile exchange rates to feed your family...
- wolongong942 4y ago
  The range of crypto -> gift card or crypto -> virtual credit card options have improved quite a bit, and you usually get ~2% cashback for purchasing these which can help to alleviate some of the loss through fees. In the US and AU you can pay a lot of bills with crypto through sites like Bitrefill. I find that you can basically live on crypto in Australia now, but this probably wouldn't be true for people living in poor countries as Visa/MC/ and the gift card vendors don't bother with small/risky markets.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    And you are still relying on centralized third parties such as Visa and Mastercard (not to mention the crypto exchange that issued the card) to continue doing business with you, so I would argue the situation hasn't improved in reality. What makes you think your centralized crypto exchange would be any better in handling your "money" than your bank is? Why can't they freeze your money to respond to a fraud claim or government order just like a regular bank?
- johndevor 4y ago
  Yes it's volatile, but in many countries around the world, inflation is worse. (Including Lebanon.)
ceejayoz 4y ago
> there's an obvious use-case for owning your own money. There's also an obvious reason people don't do that. Money under the mattress - whether it's dollar bills or a hardware wallet - is vulnerable, too, and has minimal recourse when it's lost to carelessness or hostile action. Governments seize crypto all the time. Exchanges pause withdrawals. Entire shitcoins collapse entirely. People lose their keys.
seibelj 4y ago
Here’s a podcast discussion with someone in Lebanon and how Bitcoin works there https://saifedean.com/podcast/bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-thomas-semaan/ https://saifedean.com/podcast/bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-thomas... Article explaining the p2p money changers in Lebanon that use crypto https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beirut/ https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beir...
indigochill 4y ago
> there's an obvious use-case for owning your own money Definitely! But on a blockchain you don't own your money, the consensus does. The Ethereum split proved this.
- alexslobodnik 4y ago
  it is a gradient of ownership do i own the house i bought? well, yes as long i keep paying property taxes. what is ownership really and how much more/less does one own crypto vs. money in bank. is it quantity dependent? is it time sensitive? there are no certainties in life, besides death and taxes.
goethes_kind 4y ago
People put their money in the bank to safeguard themselves from getting robbed. Yes, sometimes the banks end up being the thieves. But if people simply stashed their money under the mattress, that would be like going back to square one. Thugs would have a very easy time, taking your money, if all they have to do is convince you to reveal the key.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
As I replied every previous story like this: Can you elaborate how crypto solves this issue in an optimal way? 1. You can store cash, if you choose to. Way way way easier than Crypto. This should be the end of this argument but let's continue. 2. Can average citizen safely and reliably store crypto on their own anywhere nearly as easily and safely as cash? Otherwise, you're just at mercy of unregulated "exchanges" as opposed to "banks" and your power is even lower and the horror news stories even more plentiful. 3. Ultimately, crypto is a complicated technological stack that (and we will have a difference of opinions) government, if it sufficiently chooses to, can shut down and control. Crypto introduces a mind boggling chain of technical dependencies and gotchas and risks and dangers, which are super fun for us on HN to play with and argue about, but are a pit of snakes and spikes for most regular people (and just because somebody somewhere who's not technologically adept has used crypto successfully, that does not mean they were not exposed to massive risk; you can play Russian roulette and "win", it does not make it a good idea)
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  1. You can store cash but, in most developed countries, if you try to actually use a large amount of that cash you will find that no-one will accept it or you will get repeatedly audited. The only reason to hold large amounts of cash, in the view of banks and the govt, is tax avoidance...which is usually correct. 2. It is easier, it is safer. Way easier (again, almost no places accept cash for transactions due to AML, I know a guy who used to pay for his cars with briefcases of cash, he stopped being able to do that more than a decade ago...I am in the UK). 3. I used to agree with this point but actually shutting down a P2P network is going to be very tricky in practice. If one govt in the world decides it doesn't want to do this, it won't happen. Crypto is still a terrible customer experience for regular people: fees are unclear, you can put in the wrong address and the money is gone, etc. A lot of this can happen with bank transfers too though (and does, Citi accidentally wired someone $500m in 2020, iirc, and has been unable to get it back). I come from a traditional finance background (and studied economic history, I did my thesis on monetary policy in the 60s so I am quite familiar with the limits on purchasing gold to prop up Bretton Woods). I was initially sceptical of crypto but, imo, it is a superior technology. Not for all transactions, for example some central banks have introduced instant bank transfers, but for some. And, in some cases, it will be a superior store of value. This is already happening in the place mentioned in the OP: the reason people are taking their money out of banks is crypto, holding cash does nothing for you because inflation is nearly 200% annually, you take it out and by next month your cash is worthless, your life savings wouldn't buy a loaf of bread.
5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
if there was a privacy stablecoin, like USD monero, i wouldn't hesitate to put my savings there. as long as it had a secure future and easy way to use that money for payment. unfortunately this is not possible and i don't think it ever will be. mainly because cryptos are not really backed by anything. and anything that is backed will be so heavily regulated as to be a government cbdc. and you're back to square one. already usdc and usdt can be frozen in your wallet.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

readingnews 4y ago

I am not saying we should hold up banks, or commit crimes, but in very recent years, I have had at least three experiences with my own bank and my relatives bank that made me really sit back and ponder. A relative was going to gift me a (fairly, not huge) sum of money. The bank refused to allow them to wire transfer. As in, flat out, nope, you want to wire transfer more than say $5,000 and it is not to a corporation (e.g. mortgage, car company, etc, but to an individual) the answer is NO. This was truly eye-opening to me. This was their money. As in, hey, I worked for this money, and I would like to spend it. And... the answer is no. Of course, I understand, they can just cut a check, or make a money order, but that adds a delay, and hey, what is the bank there for? To add delays? A very similar thing happened to my bank. I literally was going to purchase a used item, it was a few grand, I went in, said I wanted a few grand from my account. The answer was NO. Write a check or grab a money order. Hey, regardless of the situation, regardless of "perhaps this person is doing a shady cash-only deal", that money in the bank is technically MINE, right? NO, its not my money. Its the banks money. I guess possession is really 9/10 of the law. After a few of these incidents happened and I started talking to friends, I head similar stories over and over. I find it amazing that citizens are pretty calm about this. It took a fair amount of emotional intelligence to not freak out in the lobby when the teller tells me the money I really worked for I just can not have right now.

differentView 4y ago
Are you in the U.S.? What banks did this to you and your relative?
skippyboxedhero 4y ago
And the reason why is AML. Your experience is bad, but have you seen the public reaction when a bank has been involved in money laundering? It is irrational (and strange, countries in the EU will happily launder your money, some domestic banks still accept suitcases full of cash in the basement but the rage is all directed to US/UK banks where money laundering is almost impossible without blackmailing someone in AML...this happens, but it is fairly rare...and risky because most banks now have teams of people watching their AML staff, following them outside work, going through their emails, etc.). The solution is simple: remove AML/KYC regulations. Let police investigate and find evidence of crimes. This isn't the job of banks, banks aren't the police, AML departments are basically run as private police departments, and the false positive rate is (unsurprisingly) through the roof. They also don't do a particularly good job with true positives either: some obscure Kazakh politician wants to open an account with $5m...okay, there is no Wikipedia page for him, he has provided proof of income, you suspect it is forged, you call the Kazakh police, they tell you it is legit...it is very hard to get right because you don't have any legal investigatory powers.