6 ms·

> "just let the kids learn by themselves" This has been the central theme of progressive education movement in the US. IIRC, Jo Boaler has been advocating that

> "just let the kids learn by themselves" This has been the central theme of progressive education movement in the US. IIRC, Jo Boaler has been advocating that kids could discover most of the maths by exploring and learning by themselves. I fundamentally disagree with this belief, though. It took thousands of years for our greatest minds to simplify our maths to its current incarnation. Discovering "everything" by myself wastes my time and reduces my chance of working on something more meaningful.

nus07 4y ago
Totally agree. Which countries are dominating STEM education? Israel, Russia, China , India and a few others which have strict schedules, competition and discipline. Looking at the failing US model I am starting to believe that finding your path and self motivation may work for 5% while leading the other 95% to slacking , cheap entertainment and failure.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Discipline is dead here (US). Very few people have discipline as adults, so the kids don't learn it either. Society doesn't value it, so it generally doest pay off. I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? We're "fat and happy", so something would have to change culturally.
  - fineIllregister 4y ago
    > I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that? They get profit sharing? Seems unlikely.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      "What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that?" They don't get fired, maybe get a raise or promotion. In the US, you won't get fired for doing the minimum because they don't have anyone to replace you with who would be better.
  - hintymad 4y ago
    I used to think so too, but I changed my view after seeing how high schools work here in the bay area. The schools here are super demanding, and students work crazy hours. It looks to me that the US schools are great for top students: demanding projects, strict disciplines, wide selection of extracurricular activities, abundant resources like AP courses and college programs, access to world-famous labs, professors and engineers, well-designed co-op programs with top companies, and of course, tiger parents who demand high achievements. On the other hand, we had public schools in Baltimore whose median GPA is below 0.5 out of 4. A stark contrast of two worlds. That why it pains me to see that progressives thought that lowering standards would help students in need. The three years of Covid showed exactly the opposite.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      I'm not sure how we can measure the number of students with discipline. GPA isn't a good measure as some kids may get As easily while a less gifted but dedicated student might get a B. Even measuring advanced placement isn't great since not all places have that tract and you still miss those less gifted but dedicated students. Plus, we seem to have a lot of grade inflation over the past 50+ years, which could mean it's easier. There are certainly some students who are really disciplined/dedicated about their school work, but I would guess the number is less than 15%. I did pretty well in school, but likely could have done better if I were really disciplined about school work. I usually rushed through homework and spent just a reasonable amount of time on projects. I'd rather be playing video games or sports, or hanging out with friends. I'd put extra work in on stuff I was interested in and probably learned just as much outside the classroom as in. Even stuff like school band I would rarely practice and still do well (sort of forced into it because the school would give busy work to the non-band members during the occasional practices during school hours). I went to a private school and participated in advance classes, and I still think 15% is about the number of students who studied hard and the rest of us could either do it easily or some would cheat.
- ravi-delia 4y ago
  Which countries are dominating STEM research? You know, the part that is actually useful instead of just coersive? America, by a long shot.
  - lordnacho 4y ago
    Aren't the actual PhD students often from those other countries?
    - hot_gril 4y ago
      Yeah. I've heard many times that the US has the best college and higher education but not so great K-12.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  Actually the statistics around education have completely different systems from Finland (very student driven learning) as well as Korea and Singapore (very discipline driven) at the topic. The main common factor is that the spend significantly larger fractions than the average on education.
zozbot234 4y ago
The unstated subtext in that theme is that some kids are not going to teach themselves the entire school curriculum (with plenty of help along the way from their literate, well-educated parents), but that's OK because they can always go work flipping burgers, or something. This is very much along the lines of the historically urbanized and socially elitist variety of "progressive" thought that gave us things like mass eugenics and enforced racial segregation in the early- and mid-20th century.
glennvtx 4y ago
He means to explore these subjects by themselves, i.e. drawing upon the current body of knowledge. This technique works very well, i educate 3 children at home, and more or less their own interests guide their learning, only occasionally do i feel the need to put them onto the path of a specific subject.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  If they're at school, they're not being allowed to pick their preferred subjects to explore. School kids these days are literally expected to teach themselves everything, it's not really about exploration or interest.
yonaguska 4y ago
I disagree, the most productive moments in my math education were spent "discovering" patterns while trying to solve problems, having been given just enough tools to attempt the problem. Credit to Szeszlér Dávid goes to those formative experiences. The next lesson, after we spent time "discovering" and likely failing, we would be given the last tool we needed to solve the problem. That discovery process cemented the lessons and understanding. I still believe that there is also value in rote memorization and practice, as you simply can't recognize patterns unless you have the fundamentals upon which those patterns are based, mastered. Only then can you start abstracting complexity away mentally, and then do effective "discovery" of new concepts. I didn't encounter this teaching method until college, but I don't see why it can't be applied at an earlier age. One of my earliest memories was when I "discovered" that 2 + 2 = 4. I distinctly remember the moment where the concept of addition and subtraction clicked for me, and it didn't happen in a classroom. I was playing by myself and counting my fingers out on the front lawn. http://www.cs.bme.hu/~szeszler/ http://www.cs.bme.hu/~szeszler/
- RealityVoid 4y ago
  My experience is somewhat similar to yours, I just loved "discovering" concepts, but I think that while this might work for us, it doesn't work for all. And this might be exactly what makes this problem hard, each person responds to different stimuli and then you either have to find a way to identify this, OR just pick something you want to optimize for (the average kid, prodigies, whatever) and apply the method that works for them, to all. I think this second method is what happens in most educational systems.
- hintymad 4y ago
  Some discovery, for sure. But not every pattern, right? For instance, not every axiom of Euclidean geometry, not how to solve cubic function, not the entirety of conic curves? Of course, these are just some examples and which ones to discover and which ones to teach are subject to discussion.
nyc111 4y ago
True. Where there is teaching there is no learning.
theptip 4y ago
This seems like a bit of a strawman. I don’t know Jo Boaler but I have never encountered the idea that students could rediscover everything from scratch. It’s clearly a dumb idea. A much more common position is that self-paced exploration — but using the latest textbooks and also a variety of teaching styles — could interest students much more than “no child left behind” style common curricula which constrain both the teacher and the student. Personally I think the current system is terrible for below- and above-average students, and perhaps passable for average students.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  "NCLB" curricula focus on the basics for a reason - we're failing to teach those basic skills. Maybe we need a system that's not so terrible for the "average" below-students (as opposed to those who expressly get skilled teaching attention as 'special-needs' cases).
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    What are those “basic skills”?
    - season2episode3 4y ago
      I'd venture a guess that they're talking about the "three R's": reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic.
      - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        AFAIK NCLB is concerned with far more stuff than those three R’s. And anyway one should wonder just how much tinkering with school system can push you forward, at some point you should realize that education is not only dependent on the school environment.
  - lupire 4y ago
    We are failing to teach those basic skills not because of bad schools, but because of bad home environments (food, safety, etc)
giantg2 4y ago
"just let the kids learn by themselves" This is what companies want. They want a diploma just for the credential, but they don't really train you and just want you to learn on the job.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Sure this works great for things like swimming in the deep end and how to use a firearm without grossly endangering yourself or others. Honestly I'm convinced anyone who believes this stuff has never watched a toddler.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Not sure what you're even trying to say. Sounds like support for my comment - companies don't want the ones who couldn't self teach (as they wouldnt survive according to you).

nus07 4y ago

Totally agree. Which countries are dominating STEM education? Israel, Russia, China , India and a few others which have strict schedules, competition and discipline. Looking at the failing US model I am starting to believe that finding your path and self motivation may work for 5% while leading the other 95% to slacking , cheap entertainment and failure.

giantg2 4y ago
Discipline is dead here (US). Very few people have discipline as adults, so the kids don't learn it either. Society doesn't value it, so it generally doest pay off. I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? We're "fat and happy", so something would have to change culturally.
- fineIllregister 4y ago
  > I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that? They get profit sharing? Seems unlikely.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that?" They don't get fired, maybe get a raise or promotion. In the US, you won't get fired for doing the minimum because they don't have anyone to replace you with who would be better.
- hintymad 4y ago
  I used to think so too, but I changed my view after seeing how high schools work here in the bay area. The schools here are super demanding, and students work crazy hours. It looks to me that the US schools are great for top students: demanding projects, strict disciplines, wide selection of extracurricular activities, abundant resources like AP courses and college programs, access to world-famous labs, professors and engineers, well-designed co-op programs with top companies, and of course, tiger parents who demand high achievements. On the other hand, we had public schools in Baltimore whose median GPA is below 0.5 out of 4. A stark contrast of two worlds. That why it pains me to see that progressives thought that lowering standards would help students in need. The three years of Covid showed exactly the opposite.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    I'm not sure how we can measure the number of students with discipline. GPA isn't a good measure as some kids may get As easily while a less gifted but dedicated student might get a B. Even measuring advanced placement isn't great since not all places have that tract and you still miss those less gifted but dedicated students. Plus, we seem to have a lot of grade inflation over the past 50+ years, which could mean it's easier. There are certainly some students who are really disciplined/dedicated about their school work, but I would guess the number is less than 15%. I did pretty well in school, but likely could have done better if I were really disciplined about school work. I usually rushed through homework and spent just a reasonable amount of time on projects. I'd rather be playing video games or sports, or hanging out with friends. I'd put extra work in on stuff I was interested in and probably learned just as much outside the classroom as in. Even stuff like school band I would rarely practice and still do well (sort of forced into it because the school would give busy work to the non-band members during the occasional practices during school hours). I went to a private school and participated in advance classes, and I still think 15% is about the number of students who studied hard and the rest of us could either do it easily or some would cheat.
ravi-delia 4y ago
Which countries are dominating STEM research? You know, the part that is actually useful instead of just coersive? America, by a long shot.
- lordnacho 4y ago
  Aren't the actual PhD students often from those other countries?
  - hot_gril 4y ago
    Yeah. I've heard many times that the US has the best college and higher education but not so great K-12.
cycomanic 4y ago
Actually the statistics around education have completely different systems from Finland (very student driven learning) as well as Korea and Singapore (very discipline driven) at the topic. The main common factor is that the spend significantly larger fractions than the average on education.

zozbot234 4y ago

The unstated subtext in that theme is that some kids are not going to teach themselves the entire school curriculum (with plenty of help along the way from their literate, well-educated parents), but that's OK because they can always go work flipping burgers, or something. This is very much along the lines of the historically urbanized and socially elitist variety of "progressive" thought that gave us things like mass eugenics and enforced racial segregation in the early- and mid-20th century.

glennvtx 4y ago

He means to explore these subjects by themselves, i.e. drawing upon the current body of knowledge. This technique works very well, i educate 3 children at home, and more or less their own interests guide their learning, only occasionally do i feel the need to put them onto the path of a specific subject.

zozbot234 4y ago
If they're at school, they're not being allowed to pick their preferred subjects to explore. School kids these days are literally expected to teach themselves everything, it's not really about exploration or interest.

yonaguska 4y ago

I disagree, the most productive moments in my math education were spent "discovering" patterns while trying to solve problems, having been given just enough tools to attempt the problem. Credit to Szeszlér Dávid goes to those formative experiences. The next lesson, after we spent time "discovering" and likely failing, we would be given the last tool we needed to solve the problem. That discovery process cemented the lessons and understanding. I still believe that there is also value in rote memorization and practice, as you simply can't recognize patterns unless you have the fundamentals upon which those patterns are based, mastered. Only then can you start abstracting complexity away mentally, and then do effective "discovery" of new concepts. I didn't encounter this teaching method until college, but I don't see why it can't be applied at an earlier age. One of my earliest memories was when I "discovered" that 2 + 2 = 4. I distinctly remember the moment where the concept of addition and subtraction clicked for me, and it didn't happen in a classroom. I was playing by myself and counting my fingers out on the front lawn. http://www.cs.bme.hu/~szeszler/ http://www.cs.bme.hu/~szeszler/

RealityVoid 4y ago
My experience is somewhat similar to yours, I just loved "discovering" concepts, but I think that while this might work for us, it doesn't work for all. And this might be exactly what makes this problem hard, each person responds to different stimuli and then you either have to find a way to identify this, OR just pick something you want to optimize for (the average kid, prodigies, whatever) and apply the method that works for them, to all. I think this second method is what happens in most educational systems.
hintymad 4y ago
Some discovery, for sure. But not every pattern, right? For instance, not every axiom of Euclidean geometry, not how to solve cubic function, not the entirety of conic curves? Of course, these are just some examples and which ones to discover and which ones to teach are subject to discussion.

nyc111 4y ago

True. Where there is teaching there is no learning.

theptip 4y ago

This seems like a bit of a strawman. I don’t know Jo Boaler but I have never encountered the idea that students could rediscover everything from scratch. It’s clearly a dumb idea. A much more common position is that self-paced exploration — but using the latest textbooks and also a variety of teaching styles — could interest students much more than “no child left behind” style common curricula which constrain both the teacher and the student. Personally I think the current system is terrible for below- and above-average students, and perhaps passable for average students.

zozbot234 4y ago
"NCLB" curricula focus on the basics for a reason - we're failing to teach those basic skills. Maybe we need a system that's not so terrible for the "average" below-students (as opposed to those who expressly get skilled teaching attention as 'special-needs' cases).
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  What are those “basic skills”?
  - season2episode3 4y ago
    I'd venture a guess that they're talking about the "three R's": reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic.
    - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
      AFAIK NCLB is concerned with far more stuff than those three R’s. And anyway one should wonder just how much tinkering with school system can push you forward, at some point you should realize that education is not only dependent on the school environment.
- lupire 4y ago
  We are failing to teach those basic skills not because of bad schools, but because of bad home environments (food, safety, etc)

giantg2 4y ago

"just let the kids learn by themselves" This is what companies want. They want a diploma just for the credential, but they don't really train you and just want you to learn on the job.

notch656a 4y ago
Sure this works great for things like swimming in the deep end and how to use a firearm without grossly endangering yourself or others. Honestly I'm convinced anyone who believes this stuff has never watched a toddler.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Not sure what you're even trying to say. Sounds like support for my comment - companies don't want the ones who couldn't self teach (as they wouldnt survive according to you).